Community Free Chat Threads April 20, 2023 9:24 AM Subscribe
This should not be paid moderator work. Let's discuss.
It comes from a former era and different model of this place as a community.
There are many easy ways this can be handed off. It isn't really "work", so it should not be an issue legally - after all, discussing and chatting on this forum is the whole point of all of us coming here.
My suggested outcome is that we get a general consensus to do this, with some (as simple as possible) idea for how to implement it.
It comes from a former era and different model of this place as a community.
There are many easy ways this can be handed off. It isn't really "work", so it should not be an issue legally - after all, discussing and chatting on this forum is the whole point of all of us coming here.
My suggested outcome is that we get a general consensus to do this, with some (as simple as possible) idea for how to implement it.
Are we talking about the Monday morning open thread on the blue and the weekend one here? l would gladly volunteer to take a turn occasionally suggesting a MetaTalk weekend discussion topic along with other folks.
posted by briank at 10:28 AM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by briank at 10:28 AM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
oh man it's 4/20 isn't it
(and I like the idea—if I had more bandwidth in my life I'd be jumping into that pool of users-enhancing-site stuff at some level or another. Especially like, in MeFiMusic somehow, e.g. monthly challenges or a regular podcast or things like that. As it stands, I haven't really had time to spend on music. Enthusiastic and very capable people have taken MeFiMusic stuff on before, but life happens, things come and go!)
posted by not_on_display at 10:33 AM on April 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
(and I like the idea—if I had more bandwidth in my life I'd be jumping into that pool of users-enhancing-site stuff at some level or another. Especially like, in MeFiMusic somehow, e.g. monthly challenges or a regular podcast or things like that. As it stands, I haven't really had time to spend on music. Enthusiastic and very capable people have taken MeFiMusic stuff on before, but life happens, things come and go!)
posted by not_on_display at 10:33 AM on April 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Please be more specific as to what threads, and what work, why this needs to change, etc.
What's the problem? What is this meant to solve?
taz, how long/how much effort goes into starting one of these threads? I'm imagining like.. nothing? Is this even something done on "work time" or just something you do?
My suggested outcome is that we get a general consensus to do this
Also please be specific about this. Consensus of whomever shows up in this MetaTalk thread, or what? Is that 75% consensus? Is there a vote? If someone gets brow-beat out of this thread is that a "no" or a "well they didn't care enough to keep fighting with me so they don't count"?
Also also, if you are coming in with, "I think we should all agree with me, and then do it," just.. what is even going on? I don't know how else to read that last sentence other than that you've decided this is necessary and people should get on board with you. That's not exactly consensus-building framework.
posted by curious nu at 11:02 AM on April 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
What's the problem? What is this meant to solve?
taz, how long/how much effort goes into starting one of these threads? I'm imagining like.. nothing? Is this even something done on "work time" or just something you do?
My suggested outcome is that we get a general consensus to do this
Also please be specific about this. Consensus of whomever shows up in this MetaTalk thread, or what? Is that 75% consensus? Is there a vote? If someone gets brow-beat out of this thread is that a "no" or a "well they didn't care enough to keep fighting with me so they don't count"?
Also also, if you are coming in with, "I think we should all agree with me, and then do it," just.. what is even going on? I don't know how else to read that last sentence other than that you've decided this is necessary and people should get on board with you. That's not exactly consensus-building framework.
posted by curious nu at 11:02 AM on April 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yeah, I feel like I’ve walked into the middle of a conversation here. Is there somewhere we can catch up?
posted by Etrigan at 11:24 AM on April 20, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 11:24 AM on April 20, 2023 [14 favorites]
The problem this is meant to solve:
Metafilter, a community weblog, where people come to chat and discuss, is currently paying moderation staff to make posts. These are "special posts" in that they are open and free, with no links*. If we are trying to take ownership of this place as a community the problem seems obvious. We should do that, not pay staff to do it.
Specific about "consensus":
This is the age-old problem / objection to getting stuff changed here. I asked the mods how to push this forward, they suggested I post here. What else have we got?
If most people say "No! No! This is a terrible idea users of this webbsite should not post threads!" then I will chuckle, and go along my merry way. Low stakes and no biggie.
If most people** think "Hey, why not?" then we will c all dibs and set up a rotation or whatever.
*So they are even easier to make than regular old threads.
**Here, in this thread
posted by Meatbomb at 11:30 AM on April 20, 2023 [11 favorites]
Metafilter, a community weblog, where people come to chat and discuss, is currently paying moderation staff to make posts. These are "special posts" in that they are open and free, with no links*. If we are trying to take ownership of this place as a community the problem seems obvious. We should do that, not pay staff to do it.
Specific about "consensus":
This is the age-old problem / objection to getting stuff changed here. I asked the mods how to push this forward, they suggested I post here. What else have we got?
If most people say "No! No! This is a terrible idea users of this webbsite should not post threads!" then I will chuckle, and go along my merry way. Low stakes and no biggie.
If most people** think "Hey, why not?" then we will c all dibs and set up a rotation or whatever.
*So they are even easier to make than regular old threads.
**Here, in this thread
posted by Meatbomb at 11:30 AM on April 20, 2023 [11 favorites]
My offer stands, but I will let the rest of you hash this out. Let me know if you want me to take a turn.
posted by briank at 11:41 AM on April 20, 2023
posted by briank at 11:41 AM on April 20, 2023
Yeah so... I guess I'd like to hear from the mods just how much of their time is, in fact, spent on this on paid time. I'm not saying it's NOT a problem, but this is the first I've heard that it might even be an issue, nevermind an issue that needs a new community system to manage.
posted by curious nu at 11:43 AM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by curious nu at 11:43 AM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
If we are trying to take ownership of this place as a community the problem seems obvious.
It doesn't seem obvious to me at all. Are these threads particularly burdensome for the mods? Jessamyn's comment seems to indicate no. What problem is this solving? Why can't the mods handle those threads as they do all others?
There doesn't seem to be any reason for this either practically or conceptually, but OP seems passionate about this, so I'd like to better understand why. Because, as curious nu said above, "this is the first I've heard that it might even be an issue, nevermind an issue that needs a new community system to manage."
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:54 AM on April 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
It doesn't seem obvious to me at all. Are these threads particularly burdensome for the mods? Jessamyn's comment seems to indicate no. What problem is this solving? Why can't the mods handle those threads as they do all others?
There doesn't seem to be any reason for this either practically or conceptually, but OP seems passionate about this, so I'd like to better understand why. Because, as curious nu said above, "this is the first I've heard that it might even be an issue, nevermind an issue that needs a new community system to manage."
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:54 AM on April 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Jessamyn said in the first post in this thread that she’d love to see the community taking this on.
..and also that it's not very resource-intensive. I personally like the fact that they're started by a mod.
Managing a rotation of people who are denoted in some way as "the person who posts this week" seems like it might be more work in some respects.
If the premise is, "Mods shouldn't be doing this work on paid time," I'm like... okay, sure. That's a fine premise. So my follow-up question is, is it actually being done on paid time? Are we talking 5 minutes, or hours? Part of what I wrote into the initial SC charter was something very close to this, asking that the SC stay involved and posting -- could totally have seen this be part of that. So I'm on board with this idea in general!
Meatbomb has often been a person with a lot of grar towards mods, so it's difficult for me to want to engage with this as anything other than another fight. Like, the whole thing is, "This is wrong and bad, do it different," versus, "I want to be part of this too."
Why not frame this whole thing as:
"Hi! I like the main page chat threads, and I'd like myself and other community members be able to start them too. How do we do that?"
That seems like a pretty friendly way to go.
I still haven't seen anything about WHICH chat threads, which seems like a good place to start. I'm guessing it's the Monday blue ones, and not the weekend MetaTalk ones, but again: the basic introduction to this topic has not been completed yet.
posted by curious nu at 12:02 PM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
..and also that it's not very resource-intensive. I personally like the fact that they're started by a mod.
Managing a rotation of people who are denoted in some way as "the person who posts this week" seems like it might be more work in some respects.
If the premise is, "Mods shouldn't be doing this work on paid time," I'm like... okay, sure. That's a fine premise. So my follow-up question is, is it actually being done on paid time? Are we talking 5 minutes, or hours? Part of what I wrote into the initial SC charter was something very close to this, asking that the SC stay involved and posting -- could totally have seen this be part of that. So I'm on board with this idea in general!
Meatbomb has often been a person with a lot of grar towards mods, so it's difficult for me to want to engage with this as anything other than another fight. Like, the whole thing is, "This is wrong and bad, do it different," versus, "I want to be part of this too."
Why not frame this whole thing as:
"Hi! I like the main page chat threads, and I'd like myself and other community members be able to start them too. How do we do that?"
That seems like a pretty friendly way to go.
I still haven't seen anything about WHICH chat threads, which seems like a good place to start. I'm guessing it's the Monday blue ones, and not the weekend MetaTalk ones, but again: the basic introduction to this topic has not been completed yet.
posted by curious nu at 12:02 PM on April 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
If jessamyn et al want the community to do this, maybe one of the ex-SC members who's got some capacity could volunteer to manage a Google doc with names and dates. (sorry to volunteer you for volunteering, ex-SC people! I trust you)
posted by curious nu at 12:06 PM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by curious nu at 12:06 PM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
taz does a nice job with these, in my opinion. I'm guessing she writes the Monday and Saturday posts in between active moderation, during the quiet hours when she's on the clock but not a lot is happening here, and if so, there's a limited cost to a regular site feature that's generally popular here, and they offer a potentially low barrier to participation for less active folks.
It's easy to start new things on Metafilter but it's really hard to maintain them. That's why having a person on staff doing this is helpful -- their weekly regularity is a huge part of their value. We could start a rota between community members, but after the initial novelty wears off, it gets harder to find folks to do this regularly. It's work.
That said, if more people want to post their own ad hoc open threads, things they want to chat about, things they're curious or excited about, I'm all for it and would cheerfully participate. I don't see those goals as diametrically opposed. If we get so many ad hoc open posts that moderator-posted threads become redundant, I would see that as a natural evolution.
posted by mochapickle at 12:08 PM on April 20, 2023 [19 favorites]
It's easy to start new things on Metafilter but it's really hard to maintain them. That's why having a person on staff doing this is helpful -- their weekly regularity is a huge part of their value. We could start a rota between community members, but after the initial novelty wears off, it gets harder to find folks to do this regularly. It's work.
That said, if more people want to post their own ad hoc open threads, things they want to chat about, things they're curious or excited about, I'm all for it and would cheerfully participate. I don't see those goals as diametrically opposed. If we get so many ad hoc open posts that moderator-posted threads become redundant, I would see that as a natural evolution.
posted by mochapickle at 12:08 PM on April 20, 2023 [19 favorites]
I'm not opinionated on this; I think I just don't have enough information to form an opinion.
I've had a job where those kinds of conversation starters were a part of it (and took time - not like, vast swaths of time, but after the first 20 or so it can be a grind), so just a few things to consider if you move from "single person doing it" to "group doing it":
1) How do you manage the question of duplication/similarity (or do you just not care). For example, 'what's your favourite snack?' followed by 'what's your favourite chocolate bar?' followed by 'what's your favourite thing to put on crackers' might be too many snacks, too many food-focused posts, etc. If you don't care, then you can just have a kind of queue going...if you do, someone has to sort the queue a bit.
2) Less common but crankier - what I'll call quality/moderation issues that a moderator would see but maybe random helpers wouldn't, like "what's the weirdest food you've ever eaten?" can be a landmine of microaggressions etc. (who defines 'weird,' etc.) - not every good intentioned and importantly new-ish person will be able to see those pitfalls ahead of time.
3) How do you signal to the community that these are limited exceptions to rules and not norms? (Or alternatively - should more be the norm?)
Right now the 'staff' tag does the heavy lifting on that but without that you could have newer or less plugged-in members seeing the open chat threads or the MetaTalk starter threads and thinking they should do one on Wednesday or something.
Not a huge deal but if someone posts a witty open chat thread on the blue and everyone is like NO IT IS ONLY THE COMMITTEE THAT POSTS THAT it can leave a bad feeling. And in my mind lowering that friction for new people can be important.
None of these are at all deal-breakers (after all we can all make posts already), just tossing them out as considerations.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:13 PM on April 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
I've had a job where those kinds of conversation starters were a part of it (and took time - not like, vast swaths of time, but after the first 20 or so it can be a grind), so just a few things to consider if you move from "single person doing it" to "group doing it":
1) How do you manage the question of duplication/similarity (or do you just not care). For example, 'what's your favourite snack?' followed by 'what's your favourite chocolate bar?' followed by 'what's your favourite thing to put on crackers' might be too many snacks, too many food-focused posts, etc. If you don't care, then you can just have a kind of queue going...if you do, someone has to sort the queue a bit.
2) Less common but crankier - what I'll call quality/moderation issues that a moderator would see but maybe random helpers wouldn't, like "what's the weirdest food you've ever eaten?" can be a landmine of microaggressions etc. (who defines 'weird,' etc.) - not every good intentioned and importantly new-ish person will be able to see those pitfalls ahead of time.
3) How do you signal to the community that these are limited exceptions to rules and not norms? (Or alternatively - should more be the norm?)
Right now the 'staff' tag does the heavy lifting on that but without that you could have newer or less plugged-in members seeing the open chat threads or the MetaTalk starter threads and thinking they should do one on Wednesday or something.
Not a huge deal but if someone posts a witty open chat thread on the blue and everyone is like NO IT IS ONLY THE COMMITTEE THAT POSTS THAT it can leave a bad feeling. And in my mind lowering that friction for new people can be important.
None of these are at all deal-breakers (after all we can all make posts already), just tossing them out as considerations.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:13 PM on April 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
Also there's no perfect system and I think the work that's been done already is great, thanks taz.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:16 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 12:16 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
In Meatbomb's defense....I personally wasn't clear that he was referring to the free threads. I thought he was talking about something going on in Mefi Chat or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:52 PM on April 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:52 PM on April 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
These open chat threads are an incredible waste of Metafilter’s extremely limited paid employee time. Metafilter’s very few paid employees should be prioritizing tasks that can’t be performed by ordinary members of the community. So I agree that some thought should go into crafting rules to preserve the value of these open threads while reducing employee responsibility.
posted by crazy with stars at 2:07 PM on April 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by crazy with stars at 2:07 PM on April 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
Not intending to be argumentative, but what's the waste? Crafting a post that takes what, 10 minutes?
This seems like one where the mods should decide: do you enjoy writing these weekly posts? If so, continue on.
Work should be enjoyable wherever possible and this could very well be some respite from, well, a lot of other things.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 2:48 PM on April 20, 2023 [18 favorites]
This seems like one where the mods should decide: do you enjoy writing these weekly posts? If so, continue on.
Work should be enjoyable wherever possible and this could very well be some respite from, well, a lot of other things.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 2:48 PM on April 20, 2023 [18 favorites]
These open chat threads are an incredible waste of Metafilter’s extremely limited paid employee time.
It just seems really unclear if this is true from anything I know about them? I don't participate but I'm glad they do exist on the site, and I don't see why it shouldn't be part of a community management role to do something like this or at least help out with them. I don't mean to say I have a strong opinion either way (seems fine to me also if the community were to take them on somehow if it turns out they are actually becoming a grind to taz / meaningfully reduce moderator effort on other tasks, or even if people just are excited to do some of them), but it's kinda hard to figure out where the strong opinions are coming from and why. (Definitely also getting a "middle of the conversation" feeling from whatever is going on here?)
posted by advil at 4:46 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
It just seems really unclear if this is true from anything I know about them? I don't participate but I'm glad they do exist on the site, and I don't see why it shouldn't be part of a community management role to do something like this or at least help out with them. I don't mean to say I have a strong opinion either way (seems fine to me also if the community were to take them on somehow if it turns out they are actually becoming a grind to taz / meaningfully reduce moderator effort on other tasks, or even if people just are excited to do some of them), but it's kinda hard to figure out where the strong opinions are coming from and why. (Definitely also getting a "middle of the conversation" feeling from whatever is going on here?)
posted by advil at 4:46 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
This seems like a pretty marginal issue. If the mods and Jessamyn are OK with it, I think it would be totally fine for them to implement the change - or not - without a lot of back-and-forth and grar here.
posted by Mid at 5:04 PM on April 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Mid at 5:04 PM on April 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't particularly see the problem we're trying to solve here, but not having a problem to solve shouldn't stop us from working to get the community more engaged, that being a good thing in and of itself.
I think getting community members to start the chat threads is a perfectly OK idea. However, I do wonder if it's the creation of the threads that is the actual work, vs monitoring the threads and intervening if required. I don't know if this has even been an issue, so maybe it's a non-problem anyway. It's possible that a chatty thread started by a random member could be perceived differently than one started by a moderator (this is MetaFilter, after all) and result in different behaviours, but the risk seems low, given people behave pretty well in those threads.
The only thing I'm really hoping for here is that we come to some kind of conclusion without this thread devolving into a shit-fight, as is so often the case on MeTa.
posted by dg at 6:20 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think getting community members to start the chat threads is a perfectly OK idea. However, I do wonder if it's the creation of the threads that is the actual work, vs monitoring the threads and intervening if required. I don't know if this has even been an issue, so maybe it's a non-problem anyway. It's possible that a chatty thread started by a random member could be perceived differently than one started by a moderator (this is MetaFilter, after all) and result in different behaviours, but the risk seems low, given people behave pretty well in those threads.
The only thing I'm really hoping for here is that we come to some kind of conclusion without this thread devolving into a shit-fight, as is so often the case on MeTa.
posted by dg at 6:20 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Can we just try doing without the "No Chatfilter" rule for a while? Let people post chat threads if they want. Bring the rule back if it turns out to be a problem.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:23 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:23 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Absolutely not. That would utterly destroy the value of MetaFilter. I mean completely undermine the fundamental appeal of the site, which is high-quality discussion on interesting topics. This is not and should not be a general chat site; if you want that, there are plenty of places to go.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:44 PM on April 20, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:44 PM on April 20, 2023 [14 favorites]
I agree that taz does a nice job with these, and they're always framed in a way that feels welcoming to whatever folks want to bring to them. Not to say we couldn't achieve that through community effort, but if they're not super labour-intensive for taz to kick off or monitor, this falls into 'ain't broke, don't fix' for me.
posted by terretu at 7:17 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by terretu at 7:17 PM on April 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I personally think AskMe should go back to limiting users to one question per week and also allow those questions to be chatfilter.
posted by wondermouse at 7:28 PM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by wondermouse at 7:28 PM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
> These open chat threads are an incredible waste of Metafilter’s extremely limited paid employee time. Metafilter’s very few paid employees should be prioritizing tasks that can’t be performed by ordinary members of the community. So I agree that some thought should go into crafting rules to preserve the value of these open threads while reducing employee responsibility.
An "incredible waste of...paid employee time" based on...what? How on earth did you come to this incredibly definitively-stated conclusion about task prioritization? If you think these threads are a waste of time, you can just ignore them. Lord. Community-driven doesn't mean "everyone gets a chance to micromanage the business."
posted by desuetude at 8:09 PM on April 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
An "incredible waste of...paid employee time" based on...what? How on earth did you come to this incredibly definitively-stated conclusion about task prioritization? If you think these threads are a waste of time, you can just ignore them. Lord. Community-driven doesn't mean "everyone gets a chance to micromanage the business."
posted by desuetude at 8:09 PM on April 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
Absolutely not. That would utterly destroy the value of MetaFilter. I mean completely undermine the fundamental appeal of the site, which is high-quality discussion on interesting topics. This is not and should not be a general chat site; if you want that, there are plenty of places to go.
What an obnoxious, self-centered, entitled, hall-monitor comment.
posted by Rumple at 8:11 PM on April 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
What an obnoxious, self-centered, entitled, hall-monitor comment.
posted by Rumple at 8:11 PM on April 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
How about ChatFilter weekends?
posted by skewed at 8:12 PM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by skewed at 8:12 PM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Here's my take:
This should be paid moderator work.
It comes from a former era and different model of this place as a community, but it works fine in the current era and the current model as well.
There is one extraordinarily simple way this can be dealt with: don't hand it off. If it continues to be done by the mods, it's not be an issue legally.
My suggested outcome is that we don't do anything about this.
posted by Bugbread at 8:16 PM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
This should be paid moderator work.
It comes from a former era and different model of this place as a community, but it works fine in the current era and the current model as well.
There is one extraordinarily simple way this can be dealt with: don't hand it off. If it continues to be done by the mods, it's not be an issue legally.
My suggested outcome is that we don't do anything about this.
posted by Bugbread at 8:16 PM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Metafilter should have
a
Poet Laureate.
posted by clavdivs at 9:30 PM on April 20, 2023 [16 favorites]
a
Poet Laureate.
posted by clavdivs at 9:30 PM on April 20, 2023 [16 favorites]
I’m in favor. If the site is indeed back in a position where it can’t make ends meet and is having trouble with coverage and taking care of business operations, this makes sense. I also don’t think it matters so much that it’s worth getting fighty about it. I was surprised to see so much grar in a very chill sounding proposal?
posted by Bottlecap at 11:46 PM on April 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 11:46 PM on April 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
I was surprised to see so much grar in a very chill sounding proposal?I'm not particularly surprised, but that I expect it is in a way more shocking. I am also finding it hard to see how Metafilter can move towards community governance when even a low-stakes suggestion like this results in a level of aggression (both active and passive) that I don't see in the subreddits, discords or forums I read.
MetaTalk seems to work well for announcements and socialising but it doesn't appear to be the ideal space for constructively discussing suggestions. Perhaps the SC could think about broadening the number of channels where community input is gathered, so that the voices of those who don't want to brave the bear pit are heard.
posted by Busy Old Fool at 2:25 AM on April 21, 2023 [23 favorites]
I'm not terribly fussed either way but since we're talking about it, I would love it if the Free Chat threads were more obviously labelled. Sometimes their whimsical title and descriptions make it hard to figure out what they're actually about; maybe appending "Free Chat: ..." to the title would make them easier to spot for everyone?
posted by adrianhon at 2:36 AM on April 21, 2023 [35 favorites]
posted by adrianhon at 2:36 AM on April 21, 2023 [35 favorites]
> I guess I'd like to hear from the mods just how much of their time is, in fact, spent on this on paid time. I'm not saying it's NOT a problem, but this is the first I've heard that it might even be an issue, nevermind an issue that needs a new community system to manage.
Something of an ongoing concern, that mod time is a black box, and we have no idea how long is spent on anything. It makes it very hard to suggest workflow optimisations (like this), because they could be of minimal value or could be significant. But ultimately MetaFilter is in existential trouble - funding will run out, things must change, and every call to maintain the status quo at this point is hastening its demise in my opinion.
posted by iivix at 3:43 AM on April 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
Something of an ongoing concern, that mod time is a black box, and we have no idea how long is spent on anything. It makes it very hard to suggest workflow optimisations (like this), because they could be of minimal value or could be significant. But ultimately MetaFilter is in existential trouble - funding will run out, things must change, and every call to maintain the status quo at this point is hastening its demise in my opinion.
posted by iivix at 3:43 AM on April 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
So, I think there are two different kinds of "chatfilter" threads going on - you have the "talktail" threads that get posted in MetaTalk every weekend, and you also have the "free threads" that get posted to Metafilter Blue on Mondays. Maybe, in the interest of clarity, we could refer to them thus instead of calling them "chat threads"?
Now then - I believe Meatbomb is talking about the "talktail" threads. And, if so, I would disagree that we need to change anything about them now; no one here asked the mods to start doing them, at least that I can recall. It may very well have been something the mods started doing as part of a way to foster group engagement. And....well, it's working. And if the argument is that the Talktail threads are a drain on mod resources....well, isn't fostering community engagement something we'd want the mods to be doing?
So I'm honestly baffled, Meatbomb, why you posted this. I'm getting the sense that it's motivated not by a concern for mod resources, but more by a personal distaste for the talktail threads. And...y'know, you could also just not visit them.
As for the "free thread" threads -
I would love it if the Free Chat threads were more obviously labelled. Sometimes their whimsical title and descriptions make it hard to figure out what they're actually about; maybe appending "Free Chat: ..." to the title would make them easier to spot for everyone?
I'm enthusiastically seconding this.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:24 AM on April 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
Now then - I believe Meatbomb is talking about the "talktail" threads. And, if so, I would disagree that we need to change anything about them now; no one here asked the mods to start doing them, at least that I can recall. It may very well have been something the mods started doing as part of a way to foster group engagement. And....well, it's working. And if the argument is that the Talktail threads are a drain on mod resources....well, isn't fostering community engagement something we'd want the mods to be doing?
So I'm honestly baffled, Meatbomb, why you posted this. I'm getting the sense that it's motivated not by a concern for mod resources, but more by a personal distaste for the talktail threads. And...y'know, you could also just not visit them.
As for the "free thread" threads -
I would love it if the Free Chat threads were more obviously labelled. Sometimes their whimsical title and descriptions make it hard to figure out what they're actually about; maybe appending "Free Chat: ..." to the title would make them easier to spot for everyone?
I'm enthusiastically seconding this.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:24 AM on April 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
My suggested outcome is that we get a general consensus
Going to MetaTalk to look for consensus is like going to Arizona to look for polar bears.
posted by box at 4:50 AM on April 21, 2023 [20 favorites]
Going to MetaTalk to look for consensus is like going to Arizona to look for polar bears.
posted by box at 4:50 AM on April 21, 2023 [20 favorites]
Went for a counterexample (oh gosh yes snark phooy) so so sad.
NO MORE ARCTIC BEARS FOR TUCSON
Zoo's polar bear died of heart ailment
posted by sammyo at 5:20 AM on April 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
NO MORE ARCTIC BEARS FOR TUCSON
Zoo's polar bear died of heart ailment
posted by sammyo at 5:20 AM on April 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oh and someone remind me why reddit has community mods but this den of capitalistic social anarchists can't?
(Not attacking jess or her legal team)
posted by sammyo at 5:23 AM on April 21, 2023
(Not attacking jess or her legal team)
posted by sammyo at 5:23 AM on April 21, 2023
Above it is suggested to have members start chat threads, i believe those already exist, eg the latest one about which astrological sign metafilter is?
Or the one about Musk and Adams, or this one? These are just some examples i could recall off the top of my head, but there are many more.
So to me, it seems that members opening chat threads in MetaTalk is already happening, whithout prompting, sign up, lists etc.
Personally, the proposal to publicly discuss anyones work load makes me extremely uncomfortable. I do not think workload, Job descriptions etc should be discussed and picked over for literally the world to see.
Yes, work load and job descriptions are important and staff must be held responsible, and resources used wisely. Maybe they need reforming, maybe not. But in my opinion not in a public forum, by random members, but rather by the site owner and (once legal issues are solved) by the steering comittee in a private setting.
posted by 15L06 at 7:41 AM on April 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
Or the one about Musk and Adams, or this one? These are just some examples i could recall off the top of my head, but there are many more.
So to me, it seems that members opening chat threads in MetaTalk is already happening, whithout prompting, sign up, lists etc.
Personally, the proposal to publicly discuss anyones work load makes me extremely uncomfortable. I do not think workload, Job descriptions etc should be discussed and picked over for literally the world to see.
Yes, work load and job descriptions are important and staff must be held responsible, and resources used wisely. Maybe they need reforming, maybe not. But in my opinion not in a public forum, by random members, but rather by the site owner and (once legal issues are solved) by the steering comittee in a private setting.
posted by 15L06 at 7:41 AM on April 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
Now then - I believe Meatbomb is talking about the "talktail" threads.
I feel like the old man trying to order coffee, not wanting to have to say "venti", LOL. I am talking about both kinds of threads, the ones on Metatalk and the ones on the main Metafilter page.
posted by Meatbomb at 7:56 AM on April 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
I feel like the old man trying to order coffee, not wanting to have to say "venti", LOL. I am talking about both kinds of threads, the ones on Metatalk and the ones on the main Metafilter page.
posted by Meatbomb at 7:56 AM on April 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
So I'm honestly baffled, Meatbomb, why you posted this. I'm getting the sense that it's motivated not by a concern for mod resources, but more by a personal distaste for the talktail threads. And...y'know, you could also just not visit them.
Jeez guys, you can do as much pondering about my motivations as you'd like, and then spin out all of the theoretical actions I might take based on that...
But I said, I thought quite clearly, why I am proposing this: "If we are trying to take ownership of this place as a community the problem seems obvious. We should do that, not pay staff to do it."
The whole deal since the ownership change has been focused on a shift towards community involvement. I am really gung-ho for this idea, and it does not mean I secretly hate the mods.
posted by Meatbomb at 8:04 AM on April 21, 2023 [30 favorites]
Jeez guys, you can do as much pondering about my motivations as you'd like, and then spin out all of the theoretical actions I might take based on that...
But I said, I thought quite clearly, why I am proposing this: "If we are trying to take ownership of this place as a community the problem seems obvious. We should do that, not pay staff to do it."
The whole deal since the ownership change has been focused on a shift towards community involvement. I am really gung-ho for this idea, and it does not mean I secretly hate the mods.
posted by Meatbomb at 8:04 AM on April 21, 2023 [30 favorites]
someone remind me why reddit has community mods but this den of capitalistic social anarchists can't?
Reddit, which was founded in 2005, was set up in such a way that they are providing a platform and people can set up their own subs within it. As a result, moderation work is not "work" as far as Reddit is concerned. The platform is built specifically with the technology in place that people with specific privs are able to do the work of moderating with the exception of legal-level issues (compliance stuff, which is the "work" of Reddit, among other things) which are above them.
MetaFilter, which was founded in 1999, is a community website which was set up specifically to have moderators who are the people who are paid by the site to do this work. There is no other "work" on MetaFilter (Reddit is one of many income streams for Condé Nast, established in 1909) with the exception of all the paperwork/legal stuff that I do, the coding work which frimble does, and the day-to-day management which is largely done by loup.
So, the things that are stopping MeFi from having "community mods" are
tech - our current platform does not have a mechanism for this to happen currently and for various reasons change to this legacy code is harder than it should be
culture - this community expects moderators to be people who answer email, check flag queues fairly frequently and referee difficult conversations and interactions
people - in order to have community moderators, we'd have to have no more paid moderators, this would be a large change
(Not attacking jess or her legal team)
Understood. It's good to understand the differences in how the sites evolved and how that has led to very different environments in what are, ultimately, community discussion spaces. I say all of this above not to start a "we could never do this" argument, but just to outline the answer to the question with the site as it is today.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:07 AM on April 21, 2023 [38 favorites]
Reddit, which was founded in 2005, was set up in such a way that they are providing a platform and people can set up their own subs within it. As a result, moderation work is not "work" as far as Reddit is concerned. The platform is built specifically with the technology in place that people with specific privs are able to do the work of moderating with the exception of legal-level issues (compliance stuff, which is the "work" of Reddit, among other things) which are above them.
MetaFilter, which was founded in 1999, is a community website which was set up specifically to have moderators who are the people who are paid by the site to do this work. There is no other "work" on MetaFilter (Reddit is one of many income streams for Condé Nast, established in 1909) with the exception of all the paperwork/legal stuff that I do, the coding work which frimble does, and the day-to-day management which is largely done by loup.
So, the things that are stopping MeFi from having "community mods" are
tech - our current platform does not have a mechanism for this to happen currently and for various reasons change to this legacy code is harder than it should be
culture - this community expects moderators to be people who answer email, check flag queues fairly frequently and referee difficult conversations and interactions
people - in order to have community moderators, we'd have to have no more paid moderators, this would be a large change
(Not attacking jess or her legal team)
Understood. It's good to understand the differences in how the sites evolved and how that has led to very different environments in what are, ultimately, community discussion spaces. I say all of this above not to start a "we could never do this" argument, but just to outline the answer to the question with the site as it is today.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:07 AM on April 21, 2023 [38 favorites]
It’s also worth pointing out that the modern not-terrible state of most major subreddits is due to both a) survival of the fittest after many, many failed communities both per-topic and overall, and b) mass-exodus of the site’s conservative base in a fit of pique when the high-level corporate moderation decided the Trump crowd had crossed the Terms-of-Service violation line.
Reddit’s a better place now in most high-visibility areas than I would have ever believed possible, but they came by it ugly.
Metafilter hasn’t really needed to do b) since the mid aughts - it was heavily leftist from the start and thanks to jessamyn’s efforts boyzone was effectively over by ‘09 (YMMV on what level of perfection you expect there, but it was decidedly sweeping up the final remnant bits after that).
Metafilter would not survive the number of collapse-rebuild cycles necessary to recapitulate a). We simply don’t have the daily active users to support it, and our expectations from moderators are likely incompatible with a Reddit-style structure at a fundamental level.
I will not use the Texan “y’all” without protracted physical torture, so:
You folks are some picky motherfuckers, and we’re stuck with this unless that changes.
posted by Ryvar at 8:57 AM on April 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
Reddit’s a better place now in most high-visibility areas than I would have ever believed possible, but they came by it ugly.
Metafilter hasn’t really needed to do b) since the mid aughts - it was heavily leftist from the start and thanks to jessamyn’s efforts boyzone was effectively over by ‘09 (YMMV on what level of perfection you expect there, but it was decidedly sweeping up the final remnant bits after that).
Metafilter would not survive the number of collapse-rebuild cycles necessary to recapitulate a). We simply don’t have the daily active users to support it, and our expectations from moderators are likely incompatible with a Reddit-style structure at a fundamental level.
I will not use the Texan “y’all” without protracted physical torture, so:
You folks are some picky motherfuckers, and we’re stuck with this unless that changes.
posted by Ryvar at 8:57 AM on April 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
I would love it if the Free Chat threads were more obviously labelled. Sometimes their whimsical title and descriptions make it hard to figure out what they're actually about; maybe appending "Free Chat: ..." to the title would make them easier to spot for everyone?
I am also enthusiastically backing this pony.
posted by Dysk at 9:10 AM on April 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
I am also enthusiastically backing this pony.
posted by Dysk at 9:10 AM on April 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
Here's a slightly different framing for this core idea: would it be good to supplement the existing mod-posted open chat threads with user-posted open chat threads?
Which, my opinion is yes, it would be good! I think that's in the spirit of more community-driven stuff on the site, and I think by treating it as a "yes, and also this!" thing instead of "no, instead this!" thing we can sidestep a lot of needless wrangling of details about mod time etc.
Part of that is: no, these have not historically been a major use of mod time. They're low-stakes and honestly they're a fun, light-hearted bit of a job which much of the time is neither. If taz or any other mod gets sick of making 'em, they should be totally free to abdicate that responsibility, but I'd say framing it as something they should stop doing may be causing more harm than good if it's not grounded in actually consulting them first about their feelings on it. Unilaterally making paid mod work more joyless is not a net good for the community, best to be careful not to accidentally do so.
For the rest of it, mochapickle above and warriorqueen right after that capture most of my thoughts on this. I think user-started threads are great and the simplest solution is to ask the mod team to give a thumbs up to folks experimenting with doing so. I think there are pitfalls to having users go wild instead of filtering it through mod judgement and experience, but I don't think those are insurmountable and maybe it's just a little bumpy sometimes. I think it's a lot easier to propose and get initial enthusiasm for an ad hoc community volunteer thing than it is to manage and maintain it, so set expectations reasonably there: volunteering volunteers is easy, managing volunteers is work, so it helps if someone is volunteering to do that boring drudgy bit. I think on the whole experimenting with it and, as adrianhon suggested, coming up with a way to more formally/visibly highlight these sorts of threads either way would be great for helping teach the community about this intentional way of providing friendly chatty spaces.
Fun, friendly spaces on the site are a good thing. Users actively creating those as a matter of community practice is great and I am all for it.
posted by cortex (retired) at 9:41 AM on April 21, 2023 [18 favorites]
Which, my opinion is yes, it would be good! I think that's in the spirit of more community-driven stuff on the site, and I think by treating it as a "yes, and also this!" thing instead of "no, instead this!" thing we can sidestep a lot of needless wrangling of details about mod time etc.
Part of that is: no, these have not historically been a major use of mod time. They're low-stakes and honestly they're a fun, light-hearted bit of a job which much of the time is neither. If taz or any other mod gets sick of making 'em, they should be totally free to abdicate that responsibility, but I'd say framing it as something they should stop doing may be causing more harm than good if it's not grounded in actually consulting them first about their feelings on it. Unilaterally making paid mod work more joyless is not a net good for the community, best to be careful not to accidentally do so.
For the rest of it, mochapickle above and warriorqueen right after that capture most of my thoughts on this. I think user-started threads are great and the simplest solution is to ask the mod team to give a thumbs up to folks experimenting with doing so. I think there are pitfalls to having users go wild instead of filtering it through mod judgement and experience, but I don't think those are insurmountable and maybe it's just a little bumpy sometimes. I think it's a lot easier to propose and get initial enthusiasm for an ad hoc community volunteer thing than it is to manage and maintain it, so set expectations reasonably there: volunteering volunteers is easy, managing volunteers is work, so it helps if someone is volunteering to do that boring drudgy bit. I think on the whole experimenting with it and, as adrianhon suggested, coming up with a way to more formally/visibly highlight these sorts of threads either way would be great for helping teach the community about this intentional way of providing friendly chatty spaces.
Fun, friendly spaces on the site are a good thing. Users actively creating those as a matter of community practice is great and I am all for it.
posted by cortex (retired) at 9:41 AM on April 21, 2023 [18 favorites]
Put me down as another reader initially confused by this post. In my case, I had just woken up from a nap and skipped the title kind of by accident. It’s short, so it only took a few reads to make sense of it, but I can see how someone else might be bewildered as well. *shrug*
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:59 AM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:59 AM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is confusing and exhausting. So very on brand.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 12:34 PM on April 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 12:34 PM on April 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
For me, the moderator-led chat threads are the main reason that I sort of feel I know the moderators. They're a nice, low-stakes way to become acquainted on a casual, human level. I got a sinking sort of feeling reading this proposal, not because I think it's bad in theory, necessarily, but because I would be disappointed if those particular threads, managed as they currently are, were to go away.
I wouldn't want to guilt the moderators if they would prefer not to be creating the threads though.
posted by BibiRose at 12:47 PM on April 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
I wouldn't want to guilt the moderators if they would prefer not to be creating the threads though.
posted by BibiRose at 12:47 PM on April 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
The free chat threads on the grey are basically the only posts on MetaTalk that don't immediately devolve into battle lines and toxic ax-grinding. My concern with this recommendation is that the community-recommended chats would come in pretty fast and furious and of such divergent quality/clarity that there would be a backlog. From there, chat threads would immediately devolve into a bunch of comments about "Why did taz okay this post about the best brands of bar soap while for weeks she has also been stonewalling my post about which cities smell the best WHY ARE THE MODS NOT LETTING US DISCUSS HOW DIFFERENT CITIES SMELL."
I guess count me in for "if it ain't broke, don't fix," mixed with a dash of "feels gross to nitpick a worker's time just because I paid a nominal fee once" and another dash of "what's stopping us from just adding additional chat threads already without micromanaging taz' time?"
posted by kensington314 at 1:41 PM on April 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
I guess count me in for "if it ain't broke, don't fix," mixed with a dash of "feels gross to nitpick a worker's time just because I paid a nominal fee once" and another dash of "what's stopping us from just adding additional chat threads already without micromanaging taz' time?"
posted by kensington314 at 1:41 PM on April 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm not terribly fussed either way but since we're talking about it, I would love it if the Free Chat threads were more obviously labelled. Sometimes their whimsical title and descriptions make it hard to figure out what they're actually about; maybe appending "Free Chat: ..." to the title would make them easier to spot for everyone?
If making these posts really is a time or energy sink for mods and a part of their job they'd be happy to not have, then maybe a mod could just make a weekly post titled "Free thread [start date-end date]" whose content consists of "This is your weekly free thread!", with a freethread tag, and be done with it. It could even be automated.
The whimsical content is fun, and I do appreciate mefi's instinctive bent for gracious hosting and doing more than the minimum. But I also think it can be confusing, especially to newcomers, and I'm not sure it would be too sorely missed. (On the other hand, if this is a fun modly task, then by all means continue!)
posted by trig at 1:46 PM on April 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
If making these posts really is a time or energy sink for mods and a part of their job they'd be happy to not have, then maybe a mod could just make a weekly post titled "Free thread [start date-end date]" whose content consists of "This is your weekly free thread!", with a freethread tag, and be done with it. It could even be automated.
The whimsical content is fun, and I do appreciate mefi's instinctive bent for gracious hosting and doing more than the minimum. But I also think it can be confusing, especially to newcomers, and I'm not sure it would be too sorely missed. (On the other hand, if this is a fun modly task, then by all means continue!)
posted by trig at 1:46 PM on April 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
It comes from a former era and different model of this place as a community.
I'm not sure what is meant by this in specificity, if like Fizz' awesome zodiac thread, I see that.
But I'm with Bugbread on this. Until community hears from legal, I don't like handing off the chat thread on the blue, why? I may be wrong but to post an FFP, the posting...format will not allow an FFP without a link. I believe only a mod can do this and handing off that code or what not could be construed as blah-blah. As to the Grey talk tail which I believe orginated with Migs, none the less that would be seemingly ok as a person just puts a talk tail thread in the que, nothing extraordinary about that. the impetus of this post is to hand off from basically Taz to community for these two threads. again I think this should just continue as normal until we hear from legal but I prefer Taz to do them on the regular basis one in the gray and one in the blue per week. I'm all for more chat space on the gray. always been. one aspect to the frequency of free chat threads posted by another user could be problematic and the only way I see this is problematic is if it turns into a shitshow of course in the past chat threads have been a little rough and as much as perhaps other members try to moderate another user's behavior I guess this is going back on the old quote unquote self-policing. self-policing does not work on metafilter very much anymore though in some ways it works spectacularly. no lottery ,no lists, no nothing I would suggest at this point if you want to have a chat
thread in the gray, just put it through the queue let's just hope that the q doesn't get clogged up with a lot of chat requests. as to perhaps the impetus of meat bombs proposal, why not. to question his motivations is kind of weird, I don't think this is a really intensive labor two threads a week for staff so the monetary aspect is not really a concern. but one thing I do understand and maybe I should be careful reading into meet bombs motivation but to turn the chat threads form moderators to community members is a pretty good idea as Jessamyn reiterated in first or second comment.
posted by clavdivs at 2:02 PM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure what is meant by this in specificity, if like Fizz' awesome zodiac thread, I see that.
But I'm with Bugbread on this. Until community hears from legal, I don't like handing off the chat thread on the blue, why? I may be wrong but to post an FFP, the posting...format will not allow an FFP without a link. I believe only a mod can do this and handing off that code or what not could be construed as blah-blah. As to the Grey talk tail which I believe orginated with Migs, none the less that would be seemingly ok as a person just puts a talk tail thread in the que, nothing extraordinary about that. the impetus of this post is to hand off from basically Taz to community for these two threads. again I think this should just continue as normal until we hear from legal but I prefer Taz to do them on the regular basis one in the gray and one in the blue per week. I'm all for more chat space on the gray. always been. one aspect to the frequency of free chat threads posted by another user could be problematic and the only way I see this is problematic is if it turns into a shitshow of course in the past chat threads have been a little rough and as much as perhaps other members try to moderate another user's behavior I guess this is going back on the old quote unquote self-policing. self-policing does not work on metafilter very much anymore though in some ways it works spectacularly. no lottery ,no lists, no nothing I would suggest at this point if you want to have a chat
thread in the gray, just put it through the queue let's just hope that the q doesn't get clogged up with a lot of chat requests. as to perhaps the impetus of meat bombs proposal, why not. to question his motivations is kind of weird, I don't think this is a really intensive labor two threads a week for staff so the monetary aspect is not really a concern. but one thing I do understand and maybe I should be careful reading into meet bombs motivation but to turn the chat threads form moderators to community members is a pretty good idea as Jessamyn reiterated in first or second comment.
posted by clavdivs at 2:02 PM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
meet bombs motivation
Dude. I'm just gonna not edit that:)
posted by clavdivs at 2:03 PM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dude. I'm just gonna not edit that:)
posted by clavdivs at 2:03 PM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
The performative bafflement is peak passive aggression.
posted by Jarcat at 2:17 PM on April 21, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 2:17 PM on April 21, 2023 [14 favorites]
Do the community chat threads actually drive engagement? I confess I don't care one way or the other about them.
posted by aspersioncast at 2:45 PM on April 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 2:45 PM on April 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
A couple of things:
1. I haven’t gone back to check, but I’m pretty sure taz has posted “guest topics” for the MeTatalktails threads before, so, if someone has an idea and wants to memail her, they could.
2. I’m not against more chatty threads on MeTa; Fizz showed that it can go well. Of course, Fizz is a treasure, but that shouldn’t stop others from trying to be treasures, too. I guess if everyone tried to do it, it might be a problem, but it’s worth a test run.
3. There was nothing performative about my bafflement, except maybe in a Butlerian sense. I was genuinely bewildered by the post at first, so I don’t think it’s surprising that others were, too.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:49 PM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
1. I haven’t gone back to check, but I’m pretty sure taz has posted “guest topics” for the MeTatalktails threads before, so, if someone has an idea and wants to memail her, they could.
2. I’m not against more chatty threads on MeTa; Fizz showed that it can go well. Of course, Fizz is a treasure, but that shouldn’t stop others from trying to be treasures, too. I guess if everyone tried to do it, it might be a problem, but it’s worth a test run.
3. There was nothing performative about my bafflement, except maybe in a Butlerian sense. I was genuinely bewildered by the post at first, so I don’t think it’s surprising that others were, too.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:49 PM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm in favor of more people making chatty threads on all sorts of topics or non-topics on MetaTalk, and also in favor of taz continuing to do so if she so chooses. Honestly even though I don't often join in, I think she does a remarkably good job with them. Writing light-hearted conversation-starting prompts is a skill, and one I don't have. In my mind the question is less "should moderator time be spent on this" and more "should a person who has demonstrated ability at this task continue to do it". Unless this is a major time-sink from limited mod resources, which it really doesn't seem like it is, I don't see any reason to change that. But I do think that the community at large should also contribute more community-building posts of that sort, as well.
Regarding the "free thread" posts on the Blue, I think those are more of a special case. I also think it's good for members of the community to have opportunities to contribute more to those, but I think it should be done as it is now, with regular posts from a moderator account. MetaFilter is generally about discussing specific links and media, and while I think the free threads are a great idea, they work because they're really a one-at-a-time phenomenon alongside the rest of the more targeted discussions. We could set up some system that allows people to sign up for posting a schedule free thread in advance, or something, but that seems more complicated than just letting a moderator handle it. However I do think that members of the community should be welcomed to suggest prompts for those threads.
posted by biogeo at 7:18 PM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Regarding the "free thread" posts on the Blue, I think those are more of a special case. I also think it's good for members of the community to have opportunities to contribute more to those, but I think it should be done as it is now, with regular posts from a moderator account. MetaFilter is generally about discussing specific links and media, and while I think the free threads are a great idea, they work because they're really a one-at-a-time phenomenon alongside the rest of the more targeted discussions. We could set up some system that allows people to sign up for posting a schedule free thread in advance, or something, but that seems more complicated than just letting a moderator handle it. However I do think that members of the community should be welcomed to suggest prompts for those threads.
posted by biogeo at 7:18 PM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
There’s a meaningful inconsistency with the regular claim that mod time is extremely limited and mods are at burnout level, while the chat threads are positioned as important site work. While the chat threads are a nice-to-have for culture, they’re not essential. They’re easily offloaded to users, and if there is so much more meaningful work that mods have so little time for, why not free up the paid staff for that. I endorse meatbomb’s idea.
posted by Miko at 9:28 PM on April 21, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by Miko at 9:28 PM on April 21, 2023 [23 favorites]
I’m pretty sure taz has posted “guest topics” for the MeTatalktails
It used to be 99% user driven. My last three Meta posts were MetaTalkTails. So I can't imagine that would be a problem. Users just have to nominate a topic via the posting queue.
posted by Mitheral at 9:47 PM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
It used to be 99% user driven. My last three Meta posts were MetaTalkTails. So I can't imagine that would be a problem. Users just have to nominate a topic via the posting queue.
posted by Mitheral at 9:47 PM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel like it can be true that the mods including Taz are overworked/burned out, and also true that posting metatalktails is not one of the larger reasons why Taz is overworked and burned out (assuming she is). I've definitely had awful jobs where there were one or two easy/fun parts in a sea of drudgery, and I would've had even lower morale had the easy/fun parts been taken away. That said, it seems disingenuous for leadership to say "the mods are overworked, they have to [x, y, z] and also metatalktails!" if the metatalktails are that kind of low-effort, high-reward thing.
posted by Alterscape at 9:19 AM on April 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Alterscape at 9:19 AM on April 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
It is not my impression that the site leadership has ever identified MetaTalktails as a significant drain on moderator time and resources.
posted by biogeo at 9:56 AM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 9:56 AM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
They have been listed multiple times in discussions about all of the work the mods are doing and as an explanation for why they can't add a community-requested feature/task. Not ever as the only reason, of course, but they're included in the list.
I think Alterscape's framing is very useful: Either they're a drain on moderator time and could easily be outsourced, and so they should be; or else they're not a drain and should stop being cited as important moderator-required work that prevents other activity.
posted by lapis at 9:59 AM on April 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think Alterscape's framing is very useful: Either they're a drain on moderator time and could easily be outsourced, and so they should be; or else they're not a drain and should stop being cited as important moderator-required work that prevents other activity.
posted by lapis at 9:59 AM on April 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
If taz wants to offload this, I think that's fine, and if taz likes doing the chatty threads, I can't imagine it takes enough time to think of and post these to be a burden. I think managing a roster of people to post is more work than making posts though, so probably this is making more unpaid work to save on paid work.
Either way, we can list discussion prompts, and whoever does these going forward can mine this thread for ideas.
*If insects were large enough to ride (and wouldn't kill you) which one would be your mount? (Taken from Vinny Thomas on twitter)
*Dumbest way you have injured yourself
*An entire thread of everyone's half remembered movie scenes so we can all crowdsource our memory gaps at once
posted by the primroses were over at 10:18 AM on April 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
Either way, we can list discussion prompts, and whoever does these going forward can mine this thread for ideas.
*If insects were large enough to ride (and wouldn't kill you) which one would be your mount? (Taken from Vinny Thomas on twitter)
*Dumbest way you have injured yourself
*An entire thread of everyone's half remembered movie scenes so we can all crowdsource our memory gaps at once
posted by the primroses were over at 10:18 AM on April 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
This seems incredibly low stakes. If community members want to try this, and Jessamyn supports it, yeah go for it. I mean if one of the extremely dire predictions comes true, hey just roll it back.
posted by JenMarie at 10:21 AM on April 22, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by JenMarie at 10:21 AM on April 22, 2023 [13 favorites]
*What's the oldest book you own (feel free to interpret that as either the one first published or the one you've possessed for the longest)?
*Giddy with the success of the Everything but the Bagel and new Everything but the Elote seasoning blends, the folks at Trader Joe's have hired you to develop the next everything-but-the-x spice. What do you choose?
posted by box at 10:48 AM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
*Giddy with the success of the Everything but the Bagel and new Everything but the Elote seasoning blends, the folks at Trader Joe's have hired you to develop the next everything-but-the-x spice. What do you choose?
posted by box at 10:48 AM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
*What's the oldest book you own
What record have you had for the longest? Not the oldest in your collection but the one you've personally had since you were [x] years old, which somehow, through all the floods, fires, felonies, moves and purges of your life has somehow stuck with you. Can be vinyl, CD, 8-track, cassette ... other?
posted by philip-random at 11:08 AM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
What record have you had for the longest? Not the oldest in your collection but the one you've personally had since you were [x] years old, which somehow, through all the floods, fires, felonies, moves and purges of your life has somehow stuck with you. Can be vinyl, CD, 8-track, cassette ... other?
posted by philip-random at 11:08 AM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
What’s the loudest fart you’ve ever had? did anyone hear it
posted by Ahmad Khani at 11:12 AM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 11:12 AM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mean why not start an open Google doc, people can drop in their suggestions and taz can pull from it? The length of this discussion is so out of proportion to the task.
posted by Miko at 12:28 PM on April 22, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by Miko at 12:28 PM on April 22, 2023 [15 favorites]
*Dumbest way you have injured yourself
Partially similar, on the blue we did “To the over-30 crowd: What's the saddest way you've injured yourself?” two years ago and that got 239 comments. But it could be re-run on MetaTalk, especially if the same commenting MeFites have clocked up more injuries since then.
Ten quick suggestions (some of which may also have been previously done):
* Most annoying office colleague (and why).
* Most regretful item of clothing bought/worn.
* Do you have baths? What's your bathing routine e.g. soak for hours, scrub down, share with partner?
* Where did you 'lose your virginity' e.g. dorm room, in the bathtub, Applebee's rest room, Saskatchewan? (details optional)
* The bestest birthday or Christmas gift you've received.
* Where is the furthest you have ever been from your home?
* Been to a school, college or university reunion? How was it?
* Largest item (of food) eaten.
* Most comfortable chair, bed, sofa, chaise longue etc. you have ever sat or laid down on.
* What's your routine for Christmas cards/presents, and when do you start?
posted by Wordshore at 12:47 PM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Partially similar, on the blue we did “To the over-30 crowd: What's the saddest way you've injured yourself?” two years ago and that got 239 comments. But it could be re-run on MetaTalk, especially if the same commenting MeFites have clocked up more injuries since then.
Ten quick suggestions (some of which may also have been previously done):
* Most annoying office colleague (and why).
* Most regretful item of clothing bought/worn.
* Do you have baths? What's your bathing routine e.g. soak for hours, scrub down, share with partner?
* Where did you 'lose your virginity' e.g. dorm room, in the bathtub, Applebee's rest room, Saskatchewan? (details optional)
* The bestest birthday or Christmas gift you've received.
* Where is the furthest you have ever been from your home?
* Been to a school, college or university reunion? How was it?
* Largest item (of food) eaten.
* Most comfortable chair, bed, sofa, chaise longue etc. you have ever sat or laid down on.
* What's your routine for Christmas cards/presents, and when do you start?
posted by Wordshore at 12:47 PM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
What is your funniest or weirdest mishearing of a song lyric?
posted by snofoam at 1:44 PM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 1:44 PM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
(I've always been curious why these are run on MetaTalk...could we also try fun topic threads like this on AskMe, which has way more traffic? Or put a link post on AskMe pointing to the MetaTalk fun thread, much like was done for the fundraising threads? Seems it would boost participation and visibility of fun things on the site.)
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:58 PM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:58 PM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
primroses, you're a hero.
* Give us a meaningful sentence in a field you know that is completely impenetrable to outsiders.
* Which celebrity appears most often in your dreams?
* Eagles are out. Suggest another way into Mordor, or a different 70s band.
* You have a time machine, but it only goes forward, never back. What time do you go to?
* Name a song you can sing that's not in English.
* What things should Cortex turn into a Menger sponge which he hasn't already?
posted by zompist at 2:47 PM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
* Give us a meaningful sentence in a field you know that is completely impenetrable to outsiders.
* Which celebrity appears most often in your dreams?
* Eagles are out. Suggest another way into Mordor, or a different 70s band.
* You have a time machine, but it only goes forward, never back. What time do you go to?
* Name a song you can sing that's not in English.
* What things should Cortex turn into a Menger sponge which he hasn't already?
posted by zompist at 2:47 PM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't like the open chat threads because they tend to assume/reinforce community/shared experience that's not in evidence to me (like, Peeps?!?). So, on the whole I feel I get a better Metafilter without the open chat threads. But if they need to be there I'd rather the effort didn't come from expensive staff cognition.
posted by dmh at 4:37 PM on April 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by dmh at 4:37 PM on April 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
They have been listed multiple times in discussions about all of the work the mods are doing and as an explanation for why they can't add a community-requested feature/task.
I too thought this was a really weird post until I got most of the way down the thread and read stuff like the piece quoted above. I would have appreciated it if you had made it more clear in the initial post as to WHY this was thought to be an issue, instead of having to read through dozens of comments before I get to the rest of the story. Thanks.
posted by some loser at 5:35 PM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I too thought this was a really weird post until I got most of the way down the thread and read stuff like the piece quoted above. I would have appreciated it if you had made it more clear in the initial post as to WHY this was thought to be an issue, instead of having to read through dozens of comments before I get to the rest of the story. Thanks.
posted by some loser at 5:35 PM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think Alterscape's framing is very useful: Either they're a drain on moderator time and could easily be outsourced, and so they should be; or else they're not a drain and should stop being cited as important moderator-required work that prevents other activity.
Or they take time but are also an actual bright spot in the mods' days, so they genuinely do pull time away from other activities but also help mitigate burnout? To use Alterscape's framing further, high effort and high reward. I have no idea if that's the case, but I think we can make space for the idea that it at least might be more complicated than a binary*.
*nothing is binary, everything's a spectrum
posted by solotoro at 12:12 AM on April 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
Or they take time but are also an actual bright spot in the mods' days, so they genuinely do pull time away from other activities but also help mitigate burnout? To use Alterscape's framing further, high effort and high reward. I have no idea if that's the case, but I think we can make space for the idea that it at least might be more complicated than a binary*.
*nothing is binary, everything's a spectrum
posted by solotoro at 12:12 AM on April 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
I think Alterscape's framing is very useful: Either they're a drain on moderator time and could easily be outsourced, and so they should be; or else they're not a drain and should stop being cited as important moderator-required work that prevents other activity.
Will we ever find out the answer to this? The entire discussion seems to revolve around how much time it does or doesn't take to make and moderate these posts.
And please don't post links to them in Ask. I do my best to ignore MetaTalk and don't want to be notified of inessential posts in the haven of the green.
posted by fabius at 6:05 AM on April 23, 2023
Will we ever find out the answer to this? The entire discussion seems to revolve around how much time it does or doesn't take to make and moderate these posts.
And please don't post links to them in Ask. I do my best to ignore MetaTalk and don't want to be notified of inessential posts in the haven of the green.
posted by fabius at 6:05 AM on April 23, 2023
You can always continue to ignore things you aren't interested in, I unfortunately have to do this all the time on the intrawebs.
I am really interested in that answer though, why did these start on MetaTalk in the 1st place, seemingly long ago? I feel we have better spots for "fun" threads than the announcement-and-arguing portion of Metafilter.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:34 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am really interested in that answer though, why did these start on MetaTalk in the 1st place, seemingly long ago? I feel we have better spots for "fun" threads than the announcement-and-arguing portion of Metafilter.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:34 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Also for a chat thread idea - "what's the last acronym you had to look up?"
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:36 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:36 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Site leadership should make a definitive decision one way or another on this issue. We commentators can make no decisions, only provide our opinions.
Let’s not make this another Metatalk thread with dozens or hundreds of comments out of which absolutely nothing emerges or changes. Any decision, e.g. that open chat threads will continue to be an employee task, would be a step forward.
posted by crazy with stars at 8:24 AM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
Let’s not make this another Metatalk thread with dozens or hundreds of comments out of which absolutely nothing emerges or changes. Any decision, e.g. that open chat threads will continue to be an employee task, would be a step forward.
posted by crazy with stars at 8:24 AM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
I have no idea if that's the case, but I think we can make space for the idea that it at least might be more complicated than a binary*.
Sure, and if there weren't other site problems or regular conversations about how the moderators don't have time to X, then it wouldn't be an issue. But since there are significant problems with moderator time and the site's financial stability, and therefore ongoing questions about where paid resources are being targeted, it seems reasonable to have a conversation about priorities. This seems like part of that conversation.
posted by lapis at 8:55 AM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
Sure, and if there weren't other site problems or regular conversations about how the moderators don't have time to X, then it wouldn't be an issue. But since there are significant problems with moderator time and the site's financial stability, and therefore ongoing questions about where paid resources are being targeted, it seems reasonable to have a conversation about priorities. This seems like part of that conversation.
posted by lapis at 8:55 AM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
why did these start on MetaTalk in the 1st place, seemingly long ago?
In the beginning there was Metafilter. When the first subsite, Metatalk, was introduced the prohibition against self linking was already in place. So Meta became the catch all for stuff that didn't belong on the front page. mathowie on the introduction: This is the first post for MetaTalk, to test out the system. Feel free to bring up bug reports, feature requests, and community musings here. So it was chatty from the beginning. The seventh post was "What Dictator/Sitcom Character are you?" Which hey, fits right into the MetaTalkTails subject suggestions.
posted by Mitheral at 10:02 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
In the beginning there was Metafilter. When the first subsite, Metatalk, was introduced the prohibition against self linking was already in place. So Meta became the catch all for stuff that didn't belong on the front page. mathowie on the introduction: This is the first post for MetaTalk, to test out the system. Feel free to bring up bug reports, feature requests, and community musings here. So it was chatty from the beginning. The seventh post was "What Dictator/Sitcom Character are you?" Which hey, fits right into the MetaTalkTails subject suggestions.
posted by Mitheral at 10:02 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh I was here near the beginning, believe me. 😃
But it effectively hides a fun thing from many, many users of the site, and I think we could improve it...or should have already.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:34 AM on April 23, 2023
But it effectively hides a fun thing from many, many users of the site, and I think we could improve it...or should have already.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:34 AM on April 23, 2023
why did these start on MetaTalk in the 1st place, seemingly long ago?
The regular chatty MetaTalktails initiative itself started up in late 2016; this is the first one. The explicit idea was to have a positive and low-stakes place on MetaTalk, at a time when the site in general and the grey in particular were full of a lot of really stressed-out and intense negative energy because of the prevailing circumstances. That right there was a week after Trump was elected; even by modern "everything is awful and happening constantly" standards it was a very bad time, and we needed all the good we could get. They were in MetaTalk because MetaTalk was a hard place to be but also where a lot of long-time, highly engaged folks were spending their time, basically.
I kicked off the Free Thread practice on the blue at the beginning of last year specifically because, yeah, it felt like a good idea to have that same kind of visible free-form friendly chat space not just on MetaTalk. I figured at the time that approach would evolve over time, and here we are.
posted by cortex (retired) at 11:03 AM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
The regular chatty MetaTalktails initiative itself started up in late 2016; this is the first one. The explicit idea was to have a positive and low-stakes place on MetaTalk, at a time when the site in general and the grey in particular were full of a lot of really stressed-out and intense negative energy because of the prevailing circumstances. That right there was a week after Trump was elected; even by modern "everything is awful and happening constantly" standards it was a very bad time, and we needed all the good we could get. They were in MetaTalk because MetaTalk was a hard place to be but also where a lot of long-time, highly engaged folks were spending their time, basically.
I kicked off the Free Thread practice on the blue at the beginning of last year specifically because, yeah, it felt like a good idea to have that same kind of visible free-form friendly chat space not just on MetaTalk. I figured at the time that approach would evolve over time, and here we are.
posted by cortex (retired) at 11:03 AM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
So I guess we aren't deciding anything here, but I hope the staff team has given the suggestion some thought and can chime on on an outcome from this thread sometime?
* If insects were large enough to ride (and wouldn't kill you) which one would be your mount?
* Dumbest way you have injured yourself.
Are there bonus points for combining the two?
posted by dg at 4:40 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
* If insects were large enough to ride (and wouldn't kill you) which one would be your mount?
* Dumbest way you have injured yourself.
Are there bonus points for combining the two?
posted by dg at 4:40 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Okay, so here's what I'll do until /unless some other structure is created: I'll post the Monday free thread just as a simple marker sort of thing, Like Free Thread #69 for today (hey! Not my fault! It literally will be the 69th free thread. I just found out!), and if people want to set up something different with members posting those, maybe a metatalk post for people to sign up for the dates or something, so we don't have multiple free threads being posted?
And as for Metatalktails, anyone can post those! Just use the tags, and ID it in the title, like "Metatalktails: [your topic theme here].
Anyway, this can absolutely be community-driven, and better for it!
posted by taz (staff) at 10:31 PM on April 23, 2023 [25 favorites]
And as for Metatalktails, anyone can post those! Just use the tags, and ID it in the title, like "Metatalktails: [your topic theme here].
Anyway, this can absolutely be community-driven, and better for it!
posted by taz (staff) at 10:31 PM on April 23, 2023 [25 favorites]
What’s the loudest fart you’ve ever had? did anyone hear it
He who felt it, dealt it.
posted by y2karl at 11:23 AM on April 25, 2023
He who felt it, dealt it.
posted by y2karl at 11:23 AM on April 25, 2023
What’s the loudest fart you’ve ever had?
The Hill Giant Stead, 1979.
did anyone hear it
yes but I was invisible.
posted by clavdivs at 12:37 PM on April 25, 2023
The Hill Giant Stead, 1979.
did anyone hear it
yes but I was invisible.
posted by clavdivs at 12:37 PM on April 25, 2023
Perhaps it's as simple as asking users to submit topics via email which a mod will then post?
posted by terrapin at 6:41 AM on April 26, 2023
posted by terrapin at 6:41 AM on April 26, 2023
What’s the loudest fart you’ve ever had? Did anyone hear it?
Inner peace.
posted by Wordshore at 9:43 AM on April 28, 2023
Inner peace.
posted by Wordshore at 9:43 AM on April 28, 2023
What’s the loudest fart you’ve ever had?
It's well established that farts are judged on a 5x5 scale with loudness and stench as the axes.
Volume is nothing without the flavour of rancid meat on the tastebuds of witnesses here present.
posted by biffa at 11:42 AM on April 28, 2023
It's well established that farts are judged on a 5x5 scale with loudness and stench as the axes.
Volume is nothing without the flavour of rancid meat on the tastebuds of witnesses here present.
posted by biffa at 11:42 AM on April 28, 2023
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posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:29 AM on April 20, 2023 [7 favorites]