Metatalktail Hour: Vexing Grammar April 22, 2023 2:18 AM Subscribe
Merry weekend, friends! Today I'd like to use my words to ask about the grammar and usage issues that vex you the most, either in their observance or non-observance, or possibly just in their DNA.
Begging the question, is it lay or lie, laid, lain, who or whom, that weird "i" before "e" except after "c" advice? Does "loose" when it should be "lose" get on your lost nerve? Would of, could of, should of? Lack or surplus of, commas? Literally, the word "literally"? Splicing together that which should remain unspliced? Do you find lesser problems in other languages than English?
Please don your Shrunken White hats, and air your grammar grievances gleefully here. OR just let us know what's happening by you, what you've been doing or thinking about (but no politics, pretty please!).
Begging the question, is it lay or lie, laid, lain, who or whom, that weird "i" before "e" except after "c" advice? Does "loose" when it should be "lose" get on your lost nerve? Would of, could of, should of? Lack or surplus of, commas? Literally, the word "literally"? Splicing together that which should remain unspliced? Do you find lesser problems in other languages than English?
Please don your Shrunken White hats, and air your grammar grievances gleefully here. OR just let us know what's happening by you, what you've been doing or thinking about (but no politics, pretty please!).
I will say that as someone who’s in the process of learning a grammatically robust language, Finnish, I’m exceedingly thankful for how patient my various interlocutors are with my wild guess about which grammatical case I should be using in a sentence. But I do find it annoying how my mouth can blurt out a Finnish sentence only for my mind to immediately correct myself. Mind you, the correction isn’t always right either, which is another peeve.
posted by Kattullus at 3:03 AM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Kattullus at 3:03 AM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
But I do find it annoying how my mouth can blurt out a Finnish sentence only for my mind to immediately correct myself. Mind you, the correction isn’t always right either, which is another peeve.
Voi hitto!
I used to be more grammar peevish when I was younger, but I’m now a firm believer in Muphry’s Law. In the last couple years in particular I’ve noticed myself making a lot more typos, having more word finding difficulty, and misreading words on first read. It’s a little unsettling, to be honest.
posted by eirias at 3:58 AM on April 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
Voi hitto!
I used to be more grammar peevish when I was younger, but I’m now a firm believer in Muphry’s Law. In the last couple years in particular I’ve noticed myself making a lot more typos, having more word finding difficulty, and misreading words on first read. It’s a little unsettling, to be honest.
posted by eirias at 3:58 AM on April 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
I am a committed descriptivist, and yet it still pings in my brain when someone uses "disinterested" to mean "bored, apathetic" rather than "unbiased."
My bête noire lately is the Spanish subjunctive. In English, the subjunctive form - used for wishes, hopes, hypotheticals, counterfactuals, doubts, and so on - mostly survives in forms like "if I were the king of Spain" (although a lot of people will say "if I was the king of Spain" instead).
In Spanish, it's a whole separate conjugation that you need to learn - and you need to learn the present subjunctive and the past subjunctive (for saying things like "I wanted him to wash the dishes") and it's just different enough from the subjunctive in French so that my shaky intuitions about when to use the subjunctive don't always apply.
posted by Jeanne at 4:22 AM on April 22, 2023 [10 favorites]
My bête noire lately is the Spanish subjunctive. In English, the subjunctive form - used for wishes, hopes, hypotheticals, counterfactuals, doubts, and so on - mostly survives in forms like "if I were the king of Spain" (although a lot of people will say "if I was the king of Spain" instead).
In Spanish, it's a whole separate conjugation that you need to learn - and you need to learn the present subjunctive and the past subjunctive (for saying things like "I wanted him to wash the dishes") and it's just different enough from the subjunctive in French so that my shaky intuitions about when to use the subjunctive don't always apply.
posted by Jeanne at 4:22 AM on April 22, 2023 [10 favorites]
I tend to jump tenses frequently mid sentence. I'm discussing or writing about events which happened in the past, but the discussion is happening now, which equals present tense in my book.
I sometimes wonder if my various minor grammatical quirks cause my anonymous AskMes to be less anonymous than I would hope...
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 4:31 AM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I sometimes wonder if my various minor grammatical quirks cause my anonymous AskMes to be less anonymous than I would hope...
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 4:31 AM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I spend most of my typing time on my phone dealing with the bullshit that autocorrect comes up with, so that's what I'll go with. Autocorrect, at least on iOS, is terminally broken garbage-shit.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:07 AM on April 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:07 AM on April 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
I drop the negator in a written sentence all the time (want to say "I can't dance" and instead type "I can dance"). Over the top infuriating. Even being aware I make that mistake and proofreading specifically to catch it is only 50/50 effective.
posted by Mitheral at 6:22 AM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 6:22 AM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
I tend to jump tenses frequently mid sentence. I'm discussing or writing about events which happened in the past, but the discussion is happening now, which equals present tense in my book.
I do this all the time! I like to think it's because time and memory aren't really a straight line, they're more like popcorn, with past and present exploding around each other all of the time.
A dear friend who writes for a living has started using the "and I's" construction: "Belinda and I's plans for the weekend were rained out" and my cheerful little descriptivist head is starting to hurt a little.
Also: The Artist's Way starts on May 7 over on IRL. Come join us!
posted by mochapickle at 6:31 AM on April 22, 2023 [13 favorites]
I do this all the time! I like to think it's because time and memory aren't really a straight line, they're more like popcorn, with past and present exploding around each other all of the time.
A dear friend who writes for a living has started using the "and I's" construction: "Belinda and I's plans for the weekend were rained out" and my cheerful little descriptivist head is starting to hurt a little.
Also: The Artist's Way starts on May 7 over on IRL. Come join us!
posted by mochapickle at 6:31 AM on April 22, 2023 [13 favorites]
I do this all the time! I like to think it's because time and memory aren't really a straight line, they're more like popcorn, with past and present exploding around each other all of the time.
mochapickle, I love this image!
posted by eirias at 6:51 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
mochapickle, I love this image!
posted by eirias at 6:51 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
mochapickle: A dear friend who writes for a living has started using the "and I's" construction
Weirdly, I just noticed this today on a podcast I listen to, and said by someone who writes for a living. I entirely blame this on prescriptivists making people doubt their own sense of grammar, so that they stopped using the entirely correct “and me” construction. Ah well, it’ll be normal usage soon enough.
posted by Kattullus at 7:10 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Weirdly, I just noticed this today on a podcast I listen to, and said by someone who writes for a living. I entirely blame this on prescriptivists making people doubt their own sense of grammar, so that they stopped using the entirely correct “and me” construction. Ah well, it’ll be normal usage soon enough.
posted by Kattullus at 7:10 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Not an annoyance, but something more in the #truelanguageconfessions vein:
My mother, age 73, told me the other day as she was doing some word puzzle on her ipad, that she had never until then made the connection between the words “sail” and “sailor.” Like, a very smart person, especially about English language stuff, just had a weird lacuna around the etymological connection between sails on a ship and handling sails being part of the work that sailors do.
For myself, I feel like there ought to be a lot more silent letters in English.
From my youth, I felt that
Rag should be spelled wrag, as in “dishwrag”(and I think I thought it actually was spelled that way),
Wimp should be whimp,
Rind should be rhind,
And there are definitely more I can’t think of right now.
As far as silent letters and annoyance go,
I HATE HATE HATE when people pronounce the t in “often.” I have learned to accept, even lovingly, a great many language foibles that are as much my own in not liking a thing as they are in others doing the thing, but this one still puts knives up my neck.
The t in “often” should be just as silent as the t in “listen,” “hasten,” and “soften.” (Confoundingly, I kinda like it when people put just the lightest catch of an unaspirated t in “listen.”)
“Oft” is “oft,” no argument there, but “ofTen” feels as wrong as “acrosst” or the difficult to render “once but with a t on the end” which sounds like “wunst,” but neither “onced,” “oncet,” nor “oncte” really obviously convey the sound.
But those also give me the brain demons.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 7:40 AM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
My mother, age 73, told me the other day as she was doing some word puzzle on her ipad, that she had never until then made the connection between the words “sail” and “sailor.” Like, a very smart person, especially about English language stuff, just had a weird lacuna around the etymological connection between sails on a ship and handling sails being part of the work that sailors do.
For myself, I feel like there ought to be a lot more silent letters in English.
From my youth, I felt that
Rag should be spelled wrag, as in “dishwrag”(and I think I thought it actually was spelled that way),
Wimp should be whimp,
Rind should be rhind,
And there are definitely more I can’t think of right now.
As far as silent letters and annoyance go,
I HATE HATE HATE when people pronounce the t in “often.” I have learned to accept, even lovingly, a great many language foibles that are as much my own in not liking a thing as they are in others doing the thing, but this one still puts knives up my neck.
The t in “often” should be just as silent as the t in “listen,” “hasten,” and “soften.” (Confoundingly, I kinda like it when people put just the lightest catch of an unaspirated t in “listen.”)
“Oft” is “oft,” no argument there, but “ofTen” feels as wrong as “acrosst” or the difficult to render “once but with a t on the end” which sounds like “wunst,” but neither “onced,” “oncet,” nor “oncte” really obviously convey the sound.
But those also give me the brain demons.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 7:40 AM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
oh, i remembered the one that made me most furious: when someone pronounces height with a θ (th-sound, voiceless dental fricative) at the end. What the even fuck. Stop that.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:53 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:53 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have a friend who does that. I broke my "do not correct other people's speech" rule to point it out.
He wasn't offended, but he's still doing it. (Worse, he works in a profession where dimensions are frequently referenced.) You can kind of see the logic (dep-th, wid-th, heigh-th) but just NO.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 9:15 AM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
He wasn't offended, but he's still doing it. (Worse, he works in a profession where dimensions are frequently referenced.) You can kind of see the logic (dep-th, wid-th, heigh-th) but just NO.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 9:15 AM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Metafilter is the place where I really came to understand descriptive versus prescriptive linguistics. Language is a natural, biological phenomenon which happens inside a blob of fatty nerves. There are many fascinating ways we can language with one another, which merit study, because their differences give insight into the process. But so long as an idea makes it from my mind into your mind, we have languaged successfully.
I think most of the irksome details about “proper” usage are related to language’s role in social-group identification. Think of meeting a stranger on the street who asks for directions. Even with as little as “which way is the,” you instantly develop an opinion about what part of the world this stranger grew up in: an unremarkable local, a person from another region of your country, a person from another country that shares your language, a person whose speech carries the rhythm and accents of a different natal language altogether. You may even develop an opinion about how much this other person has gone to school.
The group identification is an explicit part of prescriptivism. You talk like “this” to impress employers, because you want your employers to put you in the “employable” group. I think the ad absurdum here might be High German, which I understand is a formal dialect that no one actually speaks at home.
As for “heighth”: there was some Metafilter discussion that mentioned an early-1900s grammar book which complained about the popularity of the non-word “lengthy.” Which felt silly, until a commenter pointed out that the parallel construction “widthy” might throw a reasonable person for a loop.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 9:45 AM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think most of the irksome details about “proper” usage are related to language’s role in social-group identification. Think of meeting a stranger on the street who asks for directions. Even with as little as “which way is the,” you instantly develop an opinion about what part of the world this stranger grew up in: an unremarkable local, a person from another region of your country, a person from another country that shares your language, a person whose speech carries the rhythm and accents of a different natal language altogether. You may even develop an opinion about how much this other person has gone to school.
The group identification is an explicit part of prescriptivism. You talk like “this” to impress employers, because you want your employers to put you in the “employable” group. I think the ad absurdum here might be High German, which I understand is a formal dialect that no one actually speaks at home.
As for “heighth”: there was some Metafilter discussion that mentioned an early-1900s grammar book which complained about the popularity of the non-word “lengthy.” Which felt silly, until a commenter pointed out that the parallel construction “widthy” might throw a reasonable person for a loop.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 9:45 AM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
the grammar and usage issues that vex you the most
I could care less
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:45 AM on April 22, 2023 [14 favorites]
I could care less
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:45 AM on April 22, 2023 [14 favorites]
I like to pronounce the internal “b” in “subtle” — but not so that it’s noticeable, unless you’re listening for it already
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 9:49 AM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 9:49 AM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
Not my peeve, but a coworker has a client who starts all her requests in emails with "may," as in "may you get me that quote?" English is her first language, I guess she just had one of those parents who always corrected her "can I" to "may I" and she overgeneralized it to the second person. Anyway, he haaaaates it, and I periodically get email forwards of "may you help me with this..."
posted by the primroses were over at 9:50 AM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by the primroses were over at 9:50 AM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
the primroses were over, I have a coworker who always asks me to "help" with things when she means for me to Do The Thing. Usually, these are things which I am the only person who is authorized to/can do, like writing a check.
Another thing which probably bugs me more than it should is "all the sudden". Like nails on a chalkboard to me. "all of a sudden" seems most correct to my ears, but I'll accept "all of the sudden". Gotta have a preposition. It's always been native US-english speakers that I've noticed this from. Maybe it's a regional thing?
posted by MuChao at 10:03 AM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Another thing which probably bugs me more than it should is "all the sudden". Like nails on a chalkboard to me. "all of a sudden" seems most correct to my ears, but I'll accept "all of the sudden". Gotta have a preposition. It's always been native US-english speakers that I've noticed this from. Maybe it's a regional thing?
posted by MuChao at 10:03 AM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
God, so many things. In particular things in news writing, copy, headlines — for example, “rumors swirled” or “so and so vowed blah blah blah.” Overinflated and overused terms, basically.
My biggest pet peeve is writing that someone “believes” something in news writing. Like “President Jerkhole believes that lowering taxes will lead to more jobs.” No. President Jerkhole says he believes that. There’s absolutely no way to confirm what another human being believes — but writing “believes” instead of “says” lends credence to their statement, even unintentionally.
I spend a lot of my work time dealing with other people’s writing, one way or another. I try to work on radical acceptance because 1) I’m exposed to too much writing to have strong feels about it, and 2) being hyper-critical is not beloved by others.
posted by jzb at 10:19 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
My biggest pet peeve is writing that someone “believes” something in news writing. Like “President Jerkhole believes that lowering taxes will lead to more jobs.” No. President Jerkhole says he believes that. There’s absolutely no way to confirm what another human being believes — but writing “believes” instead of “says” lends credence to their statement, even unintentionally.
I spend a lot of my work time dealing with other people’s writing, one way or another. I try to work on radical acceptance because 1) I’m exposed to too much writing to have strong feels about it, and 2) being hyper-critical is not beloved by others.
posted by jzb at 10:19 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Though I try not to judge, I get a little twitch every time I encounter someone--usually a restaurant server--using "sat" as a past participle. As in, "So then this party of eight was sat in my section." Also; not a grammar/usage issue, but lord, I would love to retire the word "journey" for anything other than a trek across land.
posted by Kat Allison at 10:32 AM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Kat Allison at 10:32 AM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
My nitpicky pet peeve, though I am probably the only one who cares: people using ramp up when they mean amp up.
Also, not a fan of T-glottalization in American English.
posted by gudrun at 10:34 AM on April 22, 2023
Also, not a fan of T-glottalization in American English.
posted by gudrun at 10:34 AM on April 22, 2023
I like to think of myself as a Prescriptivist in the streets and a Descriptivist in the sheets ;)
that said, what really drives me crazy is people pronouncing the word "height" with an extra 'h' on the end. ARGGGGHHHHHHH!!!
posted by supermedusa at 10:54 AM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
that said, what really drives me crazy is people pronouncing the word "height" with an extra 'h' on the end. ARGGGGHHHHHHH!!!
posted by supermedusa at 10:54 AM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
like they said
posted by supermedusa at 10:58 AM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by supermedusa at 10:58 AM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
“That needs done” rather than “That needs to be done”. I hate it.
Also while we are bitching, I am reading _Eversion_ by Alastair Reynolds, and so far it is great BUT there is one character who is called “Coronel Ramos”. Not Colonel. “Coronel”, every time. It’s like a mild electric shock seeing such a horrible typo. They also mentioned an “ice flow” instead of an ice floe.
I feel like I should take this book back to my library and complain.
posted by Vatnesine at 11:01 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also while we are bitching, I am reading _Eversion_ by Alastair Reynolds, and so far it is great BUT there is one character who is called “Coronel Ramos”. Not Colonel. “Coronel”, every time. It’s like a mild electric shock seeing such a horrible typo. They also mentioned an “ice flow” instead of an ice floe.
I feel like I should take this book back to my library and complain.
posted by Vatnesine at 11:01 AM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
fantabulous timewaster: I think the ad absurdum here might be High German, which I understand is a formal dialect that no one actually speaks at home.
High German is a collection of dialects spoken in the mountainous southern parts of the German-speaking world, such as Bavarian, Swabian, Austrian, Swiss and many other types of German. The "high" isn't a social marker, but a geographical one, like in "highland".
posted by Kattullus at 11:31 AM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
High German is a collection of dialects spoken in the mountainous southern parts of the German-speaking world, such as Bavarian, Swabian, Austrian, Swiss and many other types of German. The "high" isn't a social marker, but a geographical one, like in "highland".
posted by Kattullus at 11:31 AM on April 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
Depth, width, breadth… one might better ask why there isn’t an “h” at the end of “height!”
posted by obfuscation at 11:34 AM on April 22, 2023
posted by obfuscation at 11:34 AM on April 22, 2023
Coronel is spanish for colonel, isn’t it? I haven’t read the book.
posted by mochapickle at 11:34 AM on April 22, 2023
posted by mochapickle at 11:34 AM on April 22, 2023
Supposebly.
posted by BoscosMom at 11:56 AM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by BoscosMom at 11:56 AM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
Muchos años después, frente al pelotón de fusilamiento, el coronel Aureliano Buendía había de recordar aquella tarde remota en que su padre lo llevó a conocer el hielo.
Hopefully the horrible typo won’t turn too many away.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:59 AM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hopefully the horrible typo won’t turn too many away.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:59 AM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Fun is an adjective, because nobody had a fun time when it was just a noun. Which sounds funner?
We had a fun dinner.
- Congratulations, wish I was there.
Or,
We had fun at dinner.
- Oh, you had fun, what did you do (to cause it like an accident)?
Proof that proper expression of fun says more about not fun:
Question: Can fun be used as an adjective, as in “We had a fun time?” G.J.
Answer: Not in my hearing without inducing severe nausea.
— Bergen Evans, The Austin Statesman (Austin, TX), 6 Oct. 1960
When I was in college I tried to get some standards for my life. I resolved never to be friends with those who used “fun” as an adjective.
— Judith Martin, The Austin Statesman (Austin, Tex.), 13 May 1971
Despite what the dictionary says, fun is not an adjective among articulate adults.
— Ronald Kohl, Machine Design (Cleveland, OH), 24 Jul. 1997
posted by Brian B. at 12:28 PM on April 22, 2023
We had a fun dinner.
- Congratulations, wish I was there.
Or,
We had fun at dinner.
- Oh, you had fun, what did you do (to cause it like an accident)?
Proof that proper expression of fun says more about not fun:
Question: Can fun be used as an adjective, as in “We had a fun time?” G.J.
Answer: Not in my hearing without inducing severe nausea.
— Bergen Evans, The Austin Statesman (Austin, TX), 6 Oct. 1960
When I was in college I tried to get some standards for my life. I resolved never to be friends with those who used “fun” as an adjective.
— Judith Martin, The Austin Statesman (Austin, Tex.), 13 May 1971
Despite what the dictionary says, fun is not an adjective among articulate adults.
— Ronald Kohl, Machine Design (Cleveland, OH), 24 Jul. 1997
posted by Brian B. at 12:28 PM on April 22, 2023
"We just can't wrap our head around it".
"Let's use our brain, people".
I hear this so often that I'm not even sure it's wrong anymore. I always think "Just have the one between you? That explains a lot".
Shouldn't we have heads and brains? Am I wrong?
posted by BoscosMom at 12:32 PM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Let's use our brain, people".
I hear this so often that I'm not even sure it's wrong anymore. I always think "Just have the one between you? That explains a lot".
Shouldn't we have heads and brains? Am I wrong?
posted by BoscosMom at 12:32 PM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I recently discovered a YouTube channel by a graduate student with a proliferate series of lectures on geology (this one), and while I very much enjoy them, my one irrational pet peeve is that she repeatedly says "A.K.A." when she means either "I.E." or "E.G.". Totally meaningless from a communication effectiveness perspective, it's completely clear what she means in context. But she does it a lot and I have to admit it throws me a bit every time. My problem, really.
posted by biogeo at 12:45 PM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 12:45 PM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
not a fan of T-glottalization in American English.
There's a perhaps related thing I notice sometimes, not sure if it's regional, where people pronounce words such as "kitten" and "button" closer to "kidden" and "buddon". It doesn't bother me, but it sounds a bit odd to my ears.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:01 PM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's a perhaps related thing I notice sometimes, not sure if it's regional, where people pronounce words such as "kitten" and "button" closer to "kidden" and "buddon". It doesn't bother me, but it sounds a bit odd to my ears.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:01 PM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
My vowels are vexxis
pronoun has hexes
adjective: like Lexxus
adverbs unlike Texas
conjuction, the solar plexus
nouns bouncing lil T rexes
boom, little pronoun with it
gonna upper case through it
posted by clavdivs at 1:16 PM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
pronoun has hexes
adjective: like Lexxus
adverbs unlike Texas
conjuction, the solar plexus
nouns bouncing lil T rexes
boom, little pronoun with it
gonna upper case through it
posted by clavdivs at 1:16 PM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
obviously, grammar is important toward actually making sense, communicating.
But it helps to remember that language came first (speaking that is, forming identifiable words and whatnot out of various raw sounds), with grammar coming along later to aid and abet the former.
So yeah, I guess that would be my primary vex:
When something somebody says may make perfect sense even if it breaks a rule of grammar, and then the conversation sidetracks into focusing on correction rather than just rolling with the "imperfection".
posted by philip-random at 1:31 PM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
But it helps to remember that language came first (speaking that is, forming identifiable words and whatnot out of various raw sounds), with grammar coming along later to aid and abet the former.
So yeah, I guess that would be my primary vex:
When something somebody says may make perfect sense even if it breaks a rule of grammar, and then the conversation sidetracks into focusing on correction rather than just rolling with the "imperfection".
posted by philip-random at 1:31 PM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm willing to accept "ax" as dialect (Can I ax you a question?) but I draw the line at "exetera."
And "on accident" makes me want to hurl, but I get where they're coming from, because it's an excellent example of how illogical English is. "On accident" should the opposite of "on purpose," or else "by accident" should be the opposite of "by purpose."
Also: “That needs done” rather than “That needs to be done”. I never heard this (or even read it anywhere, and I read a lot) until I lived in central Pennsylvania for a while. Then I heard it when I lived in Colorado for a while. Now I keep running into it in seemingly random places. This needs eradicated from the planet.
posted by scratch at 1:37 PM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
And "on accident" makes me want to hurl, but I get where they're coming from, because it's an excellent example of how illogical English is. "On accident" should the opposite of "on purpose," or else "by accident" should be the opposite of "by purpose."
Also: “That needs done” rather than “That needs to be done”. I never heard this (or even read it anywhere, and I read a lot) until I lived in central Pennsylvania for a while. Then I heard it when I lived in Colorado for a while. Now I keep running into it in seemingly random places. This needs eradicated from the planet.
posted by scratch at 1:37 PM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
also with the caveat that I'm not a prescriptivist, I don't go around hassling people about this, etc, I don't understand why people adopted "societal" when the word "social" was already there
posted by dismas at 1:45 PM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by dismas at 1:45 PM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
So yeah, I guess that would be my primary vex:
When something somebody says may make perfect sense even if it breaks a rule of grammar, and then the conversation sidetracks into focusing on correction rather than just rolling with the "imperfection".
I hear this. When I was younger I studied abroad for a time, and I lived with other foreign students who were doing the same. I had the great advantage of speaking my native language while living with them, but the disadvantage that some people wanted me to spend our conversations correcting their English. This I found completely impossible to do. The more work I need to do to understand your meaning, the less capable and interested I am in analyzing how you said it and reporting back. I just want us to exchange ideas!
posted by eirias at 1:47 PM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
When something somebody says may make perfect sense even if it breaks a rule of grammar, and then the conversation sidetracks into focusing on correction rather than just rolling with the "imperfection".
I hear this. When I was younger I studied abroad for a time, and I lived with other foreign students who were doing the same. I had the great advantage of speaking my native language while living with them, but the disadvantage that some people wanted me to spend our conversations correcting their English. This I found completely impossible to do. The more work I need to do to understand your meaning, the less capable and interested I am in analyzing how you said it and reporting back. I just want us to exchange ideas!
posted by eirias at 1:47 PM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Editor I'm trying to train says "may you" in comments directing authors to make changes. As in:
"May you consider changing to active voice in this paragraph to match the rest of the paper?"
He's still sending his comments to me first before the authors get them so that I can teach him our esoteric style. After noticing a few "may yous," I finally said, "'May you' is not correct. Instead try 'could you,' or just use the imperative and baldly tell them to do whatever it is."
A few days later he asks me "May you look over this one?"
I want to throw him through a wall.
posted by Don Pepino at 2:07 PM on April 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
"May you consider changing to active voice in this paragraph to match the rest of the paper?"
He's still sending his comments to me first before the authors get them so that I can teach him our esoteric style. After noticing a few "may yous," I finally said, "'May you' is not correct. Instead try 'could you,' or just use the imperative and baldly tell them to do whatever it is."
A few days later he asks me "May you look over this one?"
I want to throw him through a wall.
posted by Don Pepino at 2:07 PM on April 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
Kattulus, apparently I was thinking of Standard High German, which is sometimes shortened to two words. The same situation exists with Modern Standard Arabic, and I suppose existed in the past with medieval scholarly Latin.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 2:27 PM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 2:27 PM on April 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think most languages with a long history of writing have varieties that are considered standard and are primarily written. German has several, so does English. In Finnish, there's puhekieli, spoken Finnish, and kirjakieli, standard Finnish, and certain word forms are different in the two varieties (for instance the standard first person singular is "minä", but there are lots of varieties of what people actually say). There are people who speak in standard Finnish, like there are people who speak Standard American English, but they're a minority.
posted by Kattullus at 3:14 PM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Kattullus at 3:14 PM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't even know what this error is called.
Made-up example:
"How big of a house do they have?"
The "of" is extraneous and wrong, but it's very common, especially in American usage online.
posted by zadcat at 3:17 PM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Made-up example:
"How big of a house do they have?"
The "of" is extraneous and wrong, but it's very common, especially in American usage online.
posted by zadcat at 3:17 PM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh - "Coronel" is Spanish?? This makes sense, the character is described as coming from Mexico.
This is immensely relieving. Thanks mochapickle and acting the goat.
posted by Vatnesine at 3:20 PM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is immensely relieving. Thanks mochapickle and acting the goat.
posted by Vatnesine at 3:20 PM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh here's another, and you'll even see reputable journalists use this one.
Made-up example:
"Saint James is one of the only Anglican churches east of Park Avenue."
You can't be "one of the only" anything. Either it's one of the few, or it's the only one. What it conveys is that the writer thinks it's probably the only one, but they're too lazy or too rushed to check.
posted by zadcat at 3:22 PM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
Made-up example:
"Saint James is one of the only Anglican churches east of Park Avenue."
You can't be "one of the only" anything. Either it's one of the few, or it's the only one. What it conveys is that the writer thinks it's probably the only one, but they're too lazy or too rushed to check.
posted by zadcat at 3:22 PM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
I dislike the increasingly common misuse of reticent when someone actually means reluctant. But it seems like a lost cause now, so I usually just keep quiet about it.
posted by snofoam at 4:03 PM on April 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 4:03 PM on April 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
Myriad.
Always sounds like I'm doing it wrong no matter which way I use it so I just avoid it.
posted by chococat at 4:30 PM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Always sounds like I'm doing it wrong no matter which way I use it so I just avoid it.
posted by chococat at 4:30 PM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
“widthy” might throw a reasonable person for a loop.
This might become my favourite new word.
They also mentioned an “ice flow” instead of an ice floe. I feel like I should take this book back to my library and complain.
Both floes and flows exist but I'm guessing context indicated the former rather than the latter should have been used.
posted by Mitheral at 5:08 PM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
This might become my favourite new word.
They also mentioned an “ice flow” instead of an ice floe. I feel like I should take this book back to my library and complain.
Both floes and flows exist but I'm guessing context indicated the former rather than the latter should have been used.
posted by Mitheral at 5:08 PM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Gift" as a verb.
"Passion" needs to go back in the bedroom where it belongs. Besides, if everything is a passion, then nothing is really a passion. The the other acceptable use is the capital-"P" version of Passion for Holy Week each year.
"Use" and "utilize" should not be used interchangeably. Please.
Repeating "Know what I'm saying?" as often as every phrase, let alone every sentence.
Using "could/should/might/would/must of" instead of "could/should/might/would/must have"
posted by jgirl at 5:33 PM on April 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
"Passion" needs to go back in the bedroom where it belongs. Besides, if everything is a passion, then nothing is really a passion. The the other acceptable use is the capital-"P" version of Passion for Holy Week each year.
"Use" and "utilize" should not be used interchangeably. Please.
Repeating "Know what I'm saying?" as often as every phrase, let alone every sentence.
Using "could/should/might/would/must of" instead of "could/should/might/would/must have"
posted by jgirl at 5:33 PM on April 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
I thought I had made peace with the fact that anything can be a verb now, until I saw a book called "How to Success". Now I realize I have a ways to go before successing at it.
posted by Crane Shot at 5:58 PM on April 22, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Crane Shot at 5:58 PM on April 22, 2023 [12 favorites]
"Use" and "utilize" should not be used interchangeably. Please.
Oh man, the engineers I work with canNOT stop writing "utilize" as part of what they think is hifalutin-sounding TechnicalSpeak in their knowledgebase documents, and it annoys the hell out of me - along with the construction "resulting in the reported error to occur", which is not even remotely a valid utilization of grammar and I don't have a clue where that comes from. I'm doing my best to wipe it out but it's an uphill battle.
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:00 PM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
Oh man, the engineers I work with canNOT stop writing "utilize" as part of what they think is hifalutin-sounding TechnicalSpeak in their knowledgebase documents, and it annoys the hell out of me - along with the construction "resulting in the reported error to occur", which is not even remotely a valid utilization of grammar and I don't have a clue where that comes from. I'm doing my best to wipe it out but it's an uphill battle.
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:00 PM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
You can't be "one of the only" anything. Either it's one of the few, or it's the only one.
Really? I don't thing only implies solely. "There are only two beers left in the cooler."
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:07 PM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Really? I don't thing only implies solely. "There are only two beers left in the cooler."
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:07 PM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
A lot of phrases like, "How big of a house?" Come from Germanic roots. At one time English and German were nearly the same language and there is carryover. I have never heard disinterested used to mean, free from bias, only as uninterested, ready to move on.
But if you can put the thing down, it lays there, maybe even a body. If a human is supine, then they lie there. The phrase "Hope me" has me confused. I don't know where that came from. I am a way too wordy, prone to speak in upopular infinitive tense, and also a grammar snob, but really interested in idiom, and accents, and to learn them, enjoy them, you have to be unbiased when you listen, but not indifferent. Hate speech and the faulty circular logic which serves it, is an awful thing; business, and military jargon too.
posted by Oyéah at 6:57 PM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
But if you can put the thing down, it lays there, maybe even a body. If a human is supine, then they lie there. The phrase "Hope me" has me confused. I don't know where that came from. I am a way too wordy, prone to speak in upopular infinitive tense, and also a grammar snob, but really interested in idiom, and accents, and to learn them, enjoy them, you have to be unbiased when you listen, but not indifferent. Hate speech and the faulty circular logic which serves it, is an awful thing; business, and military jargon too.
posted by Oyéah at 6:57 PM on April 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I misused an apostrophe recently in a comment and was appalled at myself.
In a thrift shop today, the sign said Don't remove "tags". Untagged items can't be purchased reminding me that there was a flurry of listicles and sites about grocers' apostrophes for a while on the Web, and it was fun. I got a nice tee and a wool sweater, 2.99 each, and I'm pretty pleased.
I notice grammar, but also know that some portion of it is bad typing or just not a big deal. Not everybody grew up reading or learning grammar from the very thorough Mrs. Munson. I did cringe at storm-related lightening in a (not MeFi) comment this evening.
posted by theora55 at 7:10 PM on April 22, 2023
In a thrift shop today, the sign said Don't remove "tags". Untagged items can't be purchased reminding me that there was a flurry of listicles and sites about grocers' apostrophes for a while on the Web, and it was fun. I got a nice tee and a wool sweater, 2.99 each, and I'm pretty pleased.
I notice grammar, but also know that some portion of it is bad typing or just not a big deal. Not everybody grew up reading or learning grammar from the very thorough Mrs. Munson. I did cringe at storm-related lightening in a (not MeFi) comment this evening.
posted by theora55 at 7:10 PM on April 22, 2023
Seconding jgirl on "gift" as a verb (with apologies to all the MeFites who like using it). "Give" is a perfectly good word. "Give" is a better word.
I did recently hear that "priority" is similar to "primary" in suggesting a single thing, and so suggesting that "priorities" is subtly wrong. (On the other hand, I don't know of an analogous word for lesser priorities - secondarities? tertiarities?) So I've been trying to talk about tasks on my to-do list in terms of higher and lower urgency or importance, but really it's just extra brain strain and I will probably just go back to talking about my priorities.
posted by kristi at 7:11 PM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
I did recently hear that "priority" is similar to "primary" in suggesting a single thing, and so suggesting that "priorities" is subtly wrong. (On the other hand, I don't know of an analogous word for lesser priorities - secondarities? tertiarities?) So I've been trying to talk about tasks on my to-do list in terms of higher and lower urgency or importance, but really it's just extra brain strain and I will probably just go back to talking about my priorities.
posted by kristi at 7:11 PM on April 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Prioritize, make a list of priorities. Primary priority is getting way too close to jargonization.
posted by Oyéah at 8:53 PM on April 22, 2023
posted by Oyéah at 8:53 PM on April 22, 2023
I hate the increasingly common use of "release" as an intransitive verb in the context of a book, film, game, etc. coming out ("XXX will release on" rather than "XXX will be released on").
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 10:17 PM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 10:17 PM on April 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
The problem with "one of the only" isn't that you can't be one of the only things of your type; it's that you can't fail to be. Of all the phrases that say nothing at all, it is certainly one.
My current peeve is hearing the word "elide" way more often than it deserves to be heard, and usually not in its strict sense as a pretentious synonym of "omit", but in a laxer sense as a pretentious synonym of "conflate". The story I've made up in my head is that "elide the difference" (or "elide the distinction") is one of the more common phrases with "elide", and "the difference" has gradually been elided from this usage, thus eliding the difference between "elide the difference" and "elide".
Yes, this peeve is a bit niche, but not as niche as it would be in a better world.
I am a descriptivist much in the way that a sinner may be a Christian.
posted by aws17576 at 12:29 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
My current peeve is hearing the word "elide" way more often than it deserves to be heard, and usually not in its strict sense as a pretentious synonym of "omit", but in a laxer sense as a pretentious synonym of "conflate". The story I've made up in my head is that "elide the difference" (or "elide the distinction") is one of the more common phrases with "elide", and "the difference" has gradually been elided from this usage, thus eliding the difference between "elide the difference" and "elide".
Yes, this peeve is a bit niche, but not as niche as it would be in a better world.
I am a descriptivist much in the way that a sinner may be a Christian.
posted by aws17576 at 12:29 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Nothing gets my goat like people transposing the h (or inserting another) into asphalt. It is not "ash-fault" it is "ass-fault". (I do not care if you pronounce the second syllable "falt" or "fault" or whatever.) I will die on this hill. I'm looking at you, David Coulthard (though if he'd say "mirrors" again in the utterly delightful way that he does, I might forgive him).
posted by Dysk at 2:03 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 2:03 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
zadcat: You can't be "one of the only" anything. Either it's one of the few, or it's the only one.
That reminds me of something that makes me even madder than being in a phone maze already does:
"Please choose from one of the following options..."
I can't choose from one! I can either choose one of the options, or choose from the options. And the correct version is even shorter than the incorrect one. Drives me round the bend.
Oh, and something being 'more unique' or 'the most optimal solution'.
Also irksome, but forgivable especially when coming from non-native speakers:
- I'm confuse. Is this suppose to happen?
- I borrowed my brother car to go to my mom birthday party.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:36 AM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
That reminds me of something that makes me even madder than being in a phone maze already does:
"Please choose from one of the following options..."
I can't choose from one! I can either choose one of the options, or choose from the options. And the correct version is even shorter than the incorrect one. Drives me round the bend.
Oh, and something being 'more unique' or 'the most optimal solution'.
Also irksome, but forgivable especially when coming from non-native speakers:
- I'm confuse. Is this suppose to happen?
- I borrowed my brother car to go to my mom birthday party.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:36 AM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
Grammar and spelling? Nothing. People are doing their best. Their meaning is almost always completely clear. Language evolves. If I'm not sure what somebody means, I can ask a polite question.
I could / couldn't care less what prescriptivists are whining about at any particular moment; take your pick, they mean the same thing. It's like getting upset because somebody can't recite Beowulf - irrational petulance. Your suffering when you encounter things you believe to be incorrect pleases me immensely.
What does grind my gears is the word "eligible". In the same way that I have never, ever plugged in a Type A USB device the first time, I have never typed this word correctly. Not once. Every single time it comes out as "eligibile" or "eligiblie". This is the only word I cannot type.
posted by some little punk in a rocket at 4:23 AM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
I could / couldn't care less what prescriptivists are whining about at any particular moment; take your pick, they mean the same thing. It's like getting upset because somebody can't recite Beowulf - irrational petulance. Your suffering when you encounter things you believe to be incorrect pleases me immensely.
What does grind my gears is the word "eligible". In the same way that I have never, ever plugged in a Type A USB device the first time, I have never typed this word correctly. Not once. Every single time it comes out as "eligibile" or "eligiblie". This is the only word I cannot type.
posted by some little punk in a rocket at 4:23 AM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
In the last couple years in particular I’ve noticed myself making a lot more typos, having more word finding difficulty, and misreading words on first read. It’s a little unsettling, to be honest.
Me too, eirias. More typos, their/they're/there errors, and I've started spelling words phonetically on first pass - say, fone for phone - which I never would have done in the past. I guess it could just be getting older, but it kinda feels like it started after I had Covid.
posted by happyfrog at 4:33 AM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
Me too, eirias. More typos, their/they're/there errors, and I've started spelling words phonetically on first pass - say, fone for phone - which I never would have done in the past. I guess it could just be getting older, but it kinda feels like it started after I had Covid.
posted by happyfrog at 4:33 AM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's like getting upset because somebody can't recite Beowulf - irrational petulance.
Some people think it's irrational because it doesn't matter to them and some think it's rational because it does matter to them. Circular logic. Plus, petulance and rationality are apples and oranges. And I would like to go on record as being totally OK with people not being able to recite Beowulf.
posted by scratch at 5:46 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Some people think it's irrational because it doesn't matter to them and some think it's rational because it does matter to them. Circular logic. Plus, petulance and rationality are apples and oranges. And I would like to go on record as being totally OK with people not being able to recite Beowulf.
posted by scratch at 5:46 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
For whatever reason, I find the iOS keyboard on my old iPad Air and my natural hand motions do not line up. The result is my constantly making the same typos over and over. It’s very frustrating.
As for vexing grammar, I currently have two that bug me the most.
1. The use of “impact” to replace both “effect” and “affect”. I think this stems from the general confusion over the semantic difference between “effect” and “affect”, and that “impact” is more forceful and dramatic. I blame cable news and the 24-hour cycle.
2. The use of “reach out” when one intends to communicate with someone. As in “I’ll reach out to them and see what they say” or “we reached out to his agent for a response.” Just contact them. I blame AT&T and their goddamned “Reach out and touch someone” ad campaign way back in the 80s (90s?)
posted by Thorzdad at 5:49 AM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
As for vexing grammar, I currently have two that bug me the most.
1. The use of “impact” to replace both “effect” and “affect”. I think this stems from the general confusion over the semantic difference between “effect” and “affect”, and that “impact” is more forceful and dramatic. I blame cable news and the 24-hour cycle.
2. The use of “reach out” when one intends to communicate with someone. As in “I’ll reach out to them and see what they say” or “we reached out to his agent for a response.” Just contact them. I blame AT&T and their goddamned “Reach out and touch someone” ad campaign way back in the 80s (90s?)
posted by Thorzdad at 5:49 AM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
I could / couldn't care less what prescriptivists are whining about at any particular moment; take your pick, they mean the same thing.
Um, no, they don’t.
“Couldn’t care less” = It’s impossible for me to have a lower level of not caring. I completely do not care.
“Could care less” = I don’t completely not care. I.E. I still care somewhat.
The former is an absolute, while the latter leaves room for redemption.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:55 AM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
Um, no, they don’t.
“Couldn’t care less” = It’s impossible for me to have a lower level of not caring. I completely do not care.
“Could care less” = I don’t completely not care. I.E. I still care somewhat.
The former is an absolute, while the latter leaves room for redemption.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:55 AM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm tired of the whole "to be" thing. It's stupid and redundant. "Thing needs to be done." Wordy, annoying, fuck. "Thing needs done." Clear, concise. The verb is already in the sentence. Why do we need two more words for this? I will be honest, when I first heard this construct 40 years ago it was off-putting, but the only thing really "wrong" with it is you're not getting the little verbal cushion of those irrelevant words to be before the real verb, as if you needed some kind of warning. Also the extraneous use of that "that" is getting tiresome, but it's hard to kick.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:09 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:09 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
“Thing needs doing.” That should annoy no one.
I have another peeve that will eventually fade, I’m sure, which is dropping the -ed from verbs that end in t. Like “the dog just wanted to be pet” rather than “…petted.” It feels like it comes from an overcorrection. I feel rather than understand what’s causing it, but it still sounds really weird to me.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 6:55 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have another peeve that will eventually fade, I’m sure, which is dropping the -ed from verbs that end in t. Like “the dog just wanted to be pet” rather than “…petted.” It feels like it comes from an overcorrection. I feel rather than understand what’s causing it, but it still sounds really weird to me.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 6:55 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
I hate the increasingly common use of "release" as an intransitive verb
The verb "to release" is an action that a collective group of people undertake. For example, something I do relatively frequently at work is releasing software. It's a series of defined activities with a specific endpoint that results in the noun "a release" of said software, and we are happy to have released it. There might even be a little release party, if it was a big enough deal.
Maybe this is industry jargon but it's many decade old industry jargon if it is.
The use of “impact”
This, and terms such as "blast radius" are terms we're trying to eliminate from our vernacular at work as problematic for some populations. It's taking a long time to make progress here.
[various iOS keyboard / autocorrect gripings]
I have a rant.
A formerly excellent, world-class, defining feature of the platform is now an embarrassment. Autocorrect first started to crack in 8 or so and has completely come apart at the seams now. I'd have to rummage out the old comment but I did a slightly-more-than-shallow dive into why and how it's so awful now.
I think it was iOS 9 or so that broke the keyboard layout and touch target placement. In 10-ish it got drastically worse. Then when the square-y edged pro-esque iPads came out they deliberately disabled split keyboard on those models. Split keyboard mode was always poorly tended at Apple and this was their excuse to chuck it out. You know, since the new ones sort of vaguely look like the giant iPads that they already disabled it on. That are so giant they need it even more.
posted by majick at 8:44 AM on April 23, 2023
The verb "to release" is an action that a collective group of people undertake. For example, something I do relatively frequently at work is releasing software. It's a series of defined activities with a specific endpoint that results in the noun "a release" of said software, and we are happy to have released it. There might even be a little release party, if it was a big enough deal.
Maybe this is industry jargon but it's many decade old industry jargon if it is.
The use of “impact”
This, and terms such as "blast radius" are terms we're trying to eliminate from our vernacular at work as problematic for some populations. It's taking a long time to make progress here.
[various iOS keyboard / autocorrect gripings]
I have a rant.
A formerly excellent, world-class, defining feature of the platform is now an embarrassment. Autocorrect first started to crack in 8 or so and has completely come apart at the seams now. I'd have to rummage out the old comment but I did a slightly-more-than-shallow dive into why and how it's so awful now.
I think it was iOS 9 or so that broke the keyboard layout and touch target placement. In 10-ish it got drastically worse. Then when the square-y edged pro-esque iPads came out they deliberately disabled split keyboard on those models. Split keyboard mode was always poorly tended at Apple and this was their excuse to chuck it out. You know, since the new ones sort of vaguely look like the giant iPads that they already disabled it on. That are so giant they need it even more.
posted by majick at 8:44 AM on April 23, 2023
I have a colleague, generally quite solid, but who makes everything far more complicated than it needs to be. This colleague routinely uses the word "simplistic" when he want to convey "simple," which to me is perfect for him: He adds an unnecessary syllable to a functioning sentence whose only effect is to make it slightly wrong.
posted by mark k at 9:18 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mark k at 9:18 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sometimes I think I may be the only person in the world who knows which word is "breath" and which is "breathe."
posted by secretseasons at 9:34 AM on April 23, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by secretseasons at 9:34 AM on April 23, 2023 [13 favorites]
It doesn't really bother me when someone makes a mistake in regular speech, but when it's a published product it does. You know the editors at Scholastic should have caught it when they published a whole animal series titled "I wish I was..." Like, come on! It's your job to get this right!
In fanfic, it still bothers me but less so, since those authors are doing a labor of love. A lot of those errors come down to hearing but not reading figures of speech. Like "here comes the Calvary" and "all-intensive purposes." It's the stuff you need an editor for.
posted by blnkfrnk at 9:51 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
In fanfic, it still bothers me but less so, since those authors are doing a labor of love. A lot of those errors come down to hearing but not reading figures of speech. Like "here comes the Calvary" and "all-intensive purposes." It's the stuff you need an editor for.
posted by blnkfrnk at 9:51 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh, so many:
- "should/would/could of";
- "pacific" instead of specific;
- "slither" instead of "sliver" (cooking shows are particularly guilty of this);
- "aitch" instead of "haitch", e.g. HSBC as "haitch ess bee see";
- "myself" when you mean "me", e.g. "Fred spoke with myself about ..."
- "I" when you mean "me", e.g. "Sue gave the flowers to Sally and I..."
The judges on UK Masterchef commit all of these speech crimes in every single episode. There are times when I want to put my foot through the TV, it irks me so much.
posted by essexjan at 9:56 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
- "should/would/could of";
- "pacific" instead of specific;
- "slither" instead of "sliver" (cooking shows are particularly guilty of this);
- "aitch" instead of "haitch", e.g. HSBC as "haitch ess bee see";
- "myself" when you mean "me", e.g. "Fred spoke with myself about ..."
- "I" when you mean "me", e.g. "Sue gave the flowers to Sally and I..."
The judges on UK Masterchef commit all of these speech crimes in every single episode. There are times when I want to put my foot through the TV, it irks me so much.
posted by essexjan at 9:56 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sometimes I think I may be the only person in the world who knows which word is "breath" and which is "breathe."
Well, one of the only, at any rate.
And I would like to go on record as being totally OK with people not being able to recite Beowulf.
Hwæt?!
posted by aws17576 at 10:30 AM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
Well, one of the only, at any rate.
And I would like to go on record as being totally OK with people not being able to recite Beowulf.
Hwæt?!
posted by aws17576 at 10:30 AM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
In fanfic, it still bothers me but less so, since those authors are doing a labor of love. A lot of those errors come down to hearing but not reading figures of speech. Like "here comes the Calvary" and "all-intensive purposes." It's the stuff you need an editor for.
Exactly. It's hard to find fault in someone saying free reign instead of free rein because they sound exactly alike and free reign really does makes sense.
posted by mochapickle at 10:33 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Exactly. It's hard to find fault in someone saying free reign instead of free rein because they sound exactly alike and free reign really does makes sense.
posted by mochapickle at 10:33 AM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
different to and different than
It's different from. Always from. Different is an adjective, like fast. If you wouldn't say fast than, then you shouldn't say different than.
Use than if you're implying that something is somehow more different than something else, but different to makes absolutely no sense to me.
posted by emelenjr at 10:50 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's different from. Always from. Different is an adjective, like fast. If you wouldn't say fast than, then you shouldn't say different than.
Use than if you're implying that something is somehow more different than something else, but different to makes absolutely no sense to me.
posted by emelenjr at 10:50 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
essexjan: - "pacific" instead of specific;
And of course the ever-popular 'defiantly' instead of 'definitely'.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:56 AM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
And of course the ever-popular 'defiantly' instead of 'definitely'.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:56 AM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
“Suppose to” instead of “supposed to.”
People using “i.e.” when they mean “e.g.”
+1 to the pretentious over-correction of using “and I” in situations where it should be “and me,” such as
🎶 Hungry eyes 🎶 I feel the magic between you and I 🎶
(I love that song anyway, of course.)
posted by armeowda at 10:57 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
People using “i.e.” when they mean “e.g.”
+1 to the pretentious over-correction of using “and I” in situations where it should be “and me,” such as
🎶 Hungry eyes 🎶 I feel the magic between you and I 🎶
(I love that song anyway, of course.)
posted by armeowda at 10:57 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
... the word "eligible".
This isn't really a peeve, just an interesting observation: My manager is Welsh; he's apparently lived in the US for many many years though, and has lost most of (what I assume was) his original accent. But it does show up here and there, including the way he pronounces ELigible ("fit or qualified") like ilLEGible ("impossible to read"). Confused me the first couple times I heard it.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:22 AM on April 23, 2023
This isn't really a peeve, just an interesting observation: My manager is Welsh; he's apparently lived in the US for many many years though, and has lost most of (what I assume was) his original accent. But it does show up here and there, including the way he pronounces ELigible ("fit or qualified") like ilLEGible ("impossible to read"). Confused me the first couple times I heard it.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:22 AM on April 23, 2023
Oh ugh “besides the point.”
No, it’s beside the point. It’s next to it, but not on it. Because it’s not the point in some way.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 11:22 AM on April 23, 2023
No, it’s beside the point. It’s next to it, but not on it. Because it’s not the point in some way.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 11:22 AM on April 23, 2023
Not vexatious but just a nice interesting linguistic detail: I'm working with a bunch of people in Ohio currently, and so in both conversation and internal documentation I'm encountering a whole lot more of the needs washed construction than I have previously. It's a heavily regionalized ellipsis of what would other wise be e.g. "the car needs to be washed" or "the car needs washing"; in this regionalism it just gets collapsed to that past participle construction for certain verb phrases.
My wife actually uses that construction in a couple specific fixed phrases, which I noticed when we first got together; that I think traces to her mom having traces to NE US where there's also some regional support for it. It's comparatively very unusual and marked as a usage in Portland (and a lot of places in the US).
I am also nursing a very underbaked impression that there's a similar regional inclination to a glottal stop "button" (roughly BUH-un with the throat closing between syllables) vs the nasal release "button" I'm accustomed to ("BUTT-nn" with no hard stop but the mouth stays closed after BUTT and the n is entirely through the nose). Contrast either to a fully articulated "BUT-ton" where the tongue flaps on the "t" sound but then opens again for the "uh" schwa sound before the fine nasal n.
I've always just sort of associated that glottal stop form with some UK accents (Southern English/London esp. I think? I don't have much of a handle on the geography of UK English dialects), but trying to pay a little attention to it now I've realized it's more common in American English usage for at least some words than I'd thought.
posted by cortex (retired) at 11:23 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
My wife actually uses that construction in a couple specific fixed phrases, which I noticed when we first got together; that I think traces to her mom having traces to NE US where there's also some regional support for it. It's comparatively very unusual and marked as a usage in Portland (and a lot of places in the US).
I am also nursing a very underbaked impression that there's a similar regional inclination to a glottal stop "button" (roughly BUH-un with the throat closing between syllables) vs the nasal release "button" I'm accustomed to ("BUTT-nn" with no hard stop but the mouth stays closed after BUTT and the n is entirely through the nose). Contrast either to a fully articulated "BUT-ton" where the tongue flaps on the "t" sound but then opens again for the "uh" schwa sound before the fine nasal n.
I've always just sort of associated that glottal stop form with some UK accents (Southern English/London esp. I think? I don't have much of a handle on the geography of UK English dialects), but trying to pay a little attention to it now I've realized it's more common in American English usage for at least some words than I'd thought.
posted by cortex (retired) at 11:23 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not vexatious but just a nice interesting linguistic detail: I'm working with a bunch of people in Ohio currently, and so in both conversation and internal documentation I'm encountering a whole lot more of the needs washed construction than I have previously.
Here in Pittsburgh, too. It's everywhere. I've found myself using it too as a fairly recent transplant. I refuse to say a lot of other Pittsburghese though.
posted by cozenedindigo at 11:31 AM on April 23, 2023
Here in Pittsburgh, too. It's everywhere. I've found myself using it too as a fairly recent transplant. I refuse to say a lot of other Pittsburghese though.
posted by cozenedindigo at 11:31 AM on April 23, 2023
Like "here comes the Calvary" and "all-intensive purposes." It's the stuff you need an editor for.
See also: Chester drawers
posted by Thorzdad at 11:33 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
See also: Chester drawers
posted by Thorzdad at 11:33 AM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's different from. Always from. Different is an adjective, like fast. If you wouldn't say fast than, then you shouldn't say different than.
My ear twitches at this one, too, but this is firmly regional, and I believe "different from" (which my ear prefers) is an Americanism considered largely incorrect in the UK (where "different to" seems to be most common on TV at least).
(But also: you wouldn't say "fast from" either, right? So I'm not sure you can make a solid argument based on how other adjectives behave.)
posted by nobody at 11:55 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
My ear twitches at this one, too, but this is firmly regional, and I believe "different from" (which my ear prefers) is an Americanism considered largely incorrect in the UK (where "different to" seems to be most common on TV at least).
(But also: you wouldn't say "fast from" either, right? So I'm not sure you can make a solid argument based on how other adjectives behave.)
posted by nobody at 11:55 AM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
needs washed construction
I ran into this with some frequency in the 90s in the southern Willamette Valley area and it was definitely a regular part of my experience out on the coast of Lincoln County in the 70s and 80s.
posted by majick at 12:12 PM on April 23, 2023
I ran into this with some frequency in the 90s in the southern Willamette Valley area and it was definitely a regular part of my experience out on the coast of Lincoln County in the 70s and 80s.
posted by majick at 12:12 PM on April 23, 2023
"aitch" instead of "haitch", e.g. HSBC as "haitch ess bee see";
Sorry, that should be the other way round - people saying "haitch" instead of "aitch".
posted by essexjan at 12:21 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
Sorry, that should be the other way round - people saying "haitch" instead of "aitch".
posted by essexjan at 12:21 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's different from. Always from.
Yes, it's similar to, and different from.
posted by essexjan at 12:22 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes, it's similar to, and different from.
posted by essexjan at 12:22 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
...I'm encountering a whole lot more of the needs washed construction than I have previously. It's a heavily regionalized ellipsis of what would other wise be e.g. "the car needs to be washed" or "the car needs washing"; in this regionalism it just gets collapsed to that past participle construction for certain verb phrases.
That’s the common construction here in Indiana, as well.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:03 PM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
That’s the common construction here in Indiana, as well.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:03 PM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Would of, could of, should of
Should be would have, could have, should have. Would of etc makes my ears hurt.
Not really grammar as such, but many of my work colleagues end a description of a problem with 'please do the needful', even when they are clearly addressing this to someone who has no idea what 'the needful' is. I understand the etymology, but it often gets used as a lazy way of asking someone to solve a problem that the asker created and has no idea how to fix.
posted by dg at 4:52 PM on April 23, 2023
Should be would have, could have, should have. Would of etc makes my ears hurt.
Not really grammar as such, but many of my work colleagues end a description of a problem with 'please do the needful', even when they are clearly addressing this to someone who has no idea what 'the needful' is. I understand the etymology, but it often gets used as a lazy way of asking someone to solve a problem that the asker created and has no idea how to fix.
posted by dg at 4:52 PM on April 23, 2023
If you can say "This burger needs mustard." (Which you can, this sentence is fine) how can you then say "This burger needs cooked"? Verbs are free, we aren't saving money by cutting them out of sentences where they belong. ALSO and perhaps more to the point, I never heard this particular sentence construction until I was at least in my mid-thirties, by which time my sense of What Is Correct had set firmly.
"Different to" (instead of the obviously correct "different from") is merely one of the myriad ways that English people maul their own language to differentiate themselves from their renegade cousins across the pond, and may be treated as a charming regionalism.
posted by Vatnesine at 4:52 PM on April 23, 2023
"Different to" (instead of the obviously correct "different from") is merely one of the myriad ways that English people maul their own language to differentiate themselves from their renegade cousins across the pond, and may be treated as a charming regionalism.
posted by Vatnesine at 4:52 PM on April 23, 2023
needs washed construction
I ran into this with some frequency in the 90s in the southern Willamette Valley area and it was definitely a regular part of my experience out on the coast of Lincoln County in the 70s and 80s.
You also hear it pretty frequently on the east side of the state, maybe from some areas having more local settlement from the midwest a hundred years ago.
At work I do a lot of technical review/peer review of documents, and for whatever reason people who scramble up homophones bug me way out of proportion to how unimportant it actually is. Like, gage vs gauge, or bear vs bare. It's a completely natural thing to do and I'm sure I do it all the time myself, but when I'm reviewing it frustrates me unreasonably.
Slightly relatedly, I get unreasonably irked by audiobooks where the narrator butchers very basic placenames or common words from another language. I'm not expecting total fluency, but if the text of the book refers to "Juarez," please don't pronounce the J like in "jail."
posted by Dip Flash at 4:53 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I ran into this with some frequency in the 90s in the southern Willamette Valley area and it was definitely a regular part of my experience out on the coast of Lincoln County in the 70s and 80s.
You also hear it pretty frequently on the east side of the state, maybe from some areas having more local settlement from the midwest a hundred years ago.
At work I do a lot of technical review/peer review of documents, and for whatever reason people who scramble up homophones bug me way out of proportion to how unimportant it actually is. Like, gage vs gauge, or bear vs bare. It's a completely natural thing to do and I'm sure I do it all the time myself, but when I'm reviewing it frustrates me unreasonably.
Slightly relatedly, I get unreasonably irked by audiobooks where the narrator butchers very basic placenames or common words from another language. I'm not expecting total fluency, but if the text of the book refers to "Juarez," please don't pronounce the J like in "jail."
posted by Dip Flash at 4:53 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Would of, could of, should of
Man but it's such a wonderful illustration of the way orthography is subservient to natural spoken language! Because why not render the sounds that way, right? The people writing that aren't doing their language wrong, they're failing to follow some of the artificial rules we've collectively created (and steadily changed) over scores of human lifetimes about how to write down noises.
Brain takes in content; brain does pattern matching; brain does some amazing gooey blackbox shit; brain outputs novel content. It's a marvel, that we can do this at all, and I love it, and also I feel like enough of a pest about my joy in descriptivism when people just want to have a nice gripe that I promise I'll leave it alone in here. But our natural language facilities are fucking amazing; our human invention of orthographic methods of rendering them are brilliant and flawed and far too easy to treat like the source of truth rather than one kind of tool made in service of that amazing brain stuff.
posted by cortex (retired) at 5:53 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
Man but it's such a wonderful illustration of the way orthography is subservient to natural spoken language! Because why not render the sounds that way, right? The people writing that aren't doing their language wrong, they're failing to follow some of the artificial rules we've collectively created (and steadily changed) over scores of human lifetimes about how to write down noises.
Brain takes in content; brain does pattern matching; brain does some amazing gooey blackbox shit; brain outputs novel content. It's a marvel, that we can do this at all, and I love it, and also I feel like enough of a pest about my joy in descriptivism when people just want to have a nice gripe that I promise I'll leave it alone in here. But our natural language facilities are fucking amazing; our human invention of orthographic methods of rendering them are brilliant and flawed and far too easy to treat like the source of truth rather than one kind of tool made in service of that amazing brain stuff.
posted by cortex (retired) at 5:53 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
I got "you want I should [x]" baked into my vocabulary early in life and apparently it bothers people here in the Midwest to no end which I love
posted by Ferreous at 5:54 PM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 5:54 PM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
“Graduated college” bugs me. “Graduated from college” is correct.
posted by southern_sky at 6:26 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by southern_sky at 6:26 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
Would of, could of, should of
a wonderful illustration of the way orthography is subservient to natural spoken language
Yeah, I mean you start with 'would have' and abbreviate it to 'would've' which, when you speak it, sounds a lot like 'would of' so there's a clear path from one to the other when you insert spoken language in the middle.
posted by dg at 6:46 PM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
a wonderful illustration of the way orthography is subservient to natural spoken language
Yeah, I mean you start with 'would have' and abbreviate it to 'would've' which, when you speak it, sounds a lot like 'would of' so there's a clear path from one to the other when you insert spoken language in the middle.
posted by dg at 6:46 PM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Probably doesn't help that spellcheckers (and autocorrect, swipe keyboards, etc) universally seem to fail to recognise fairly common double contractions like shouldn't've, so if you're in a hurry on mobile, you've got a choice between sounding too formal, and grammatically off.
posted by Dysk at 7:00 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 7:00 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
“Graduated college” bugs me.
Unless you're referring to an ordered arrangement of college, for instance multiple buildings up the side of a hill, or attending classes in successively darker-painted rooms as one's education proceeds from freshman to senior.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:06 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
Unless you're referring to an ordered arrangement of college, for instance multiple buildings up the side of a hill, or attending classes in successively darker-painted rooms as one's education proceeds from freshman to senior.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:06 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
Would of, could of, should of
a wonderful illustration of the way orthography is subservient to natural spoken language
I'd guess that the difference might be whether a person learns language mainly from reading or from hearing others speak. I learned a lot of spelling and language "rules" mainly through reading a ton of books as a child, with the result that I'd never use would of but have been wrong in my assumption of the pronunciation of some less-common words or names before I heard someone else say them. And I'm especially annoyed by certain words changing their pronunciation when they become part of another word that includes a suffix or prefix. Annoyingly I can't think of any personal examples at the moment, but I do recall hearing someone tell the story of having seen the word "Egyptian" but never heard it pronounced, so they assumed it was pronounced with a hard "g" - "e-GIPP-ti-an".
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:34 PM on April 23, 2023
a wonderful illustration of the way orthography is subservient to natural spoken language
I'd guess that the difference might be whether a person learns language mainly from reading or from hearing others speak. I learned a lot of spelling and language "rules" mainly through reading a ton of books as a child, with the result that I'd never use would of but have been wrong in my assumption of the pronunciation of some less-common words or names before I heard someone else say them. And I'm especially annoyed by certain words changing their pronunciation when they become part of another word that includes a suffix or prefix. Annoyingly I can't think of any personal examples at the moment, but I do recall hearing someone tell the story of having seen the word "Egyptian" but never heard it pronounced, so they assumed it was pronounced with a hard "g" - "e-GIPP-ti-an".
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:34 PM on April 23, 2023
The verb "to release" is an action that a collective group of people undertake. For example, something I do relatively frequently at work is releasing software. It's a series of defined activities with a specific endpoint that results in the noun "a release" of said software, and we are happy to have released it. There might even be a little release party, if it was a big enough deal.All of this is completely orthogonal to my point, which you seem to have missed entirely. The usage that bothers me is, for example, if you'd written something like "software releases frequently at work".
Maybe this is industry jargon but it's many decade old industry jargon if it is.
See, as an example in the wild, the first sentence of an article on Ars Technica from about a year ago: "Return to Monkey Island, teased by Ron Gilbert on his official blog last week on April Fools' Day, has been confirmed as an actual video game that will release in 2022."
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 2:48 AM on April 24, 2023
I learned a lot of spelling and language "rules" mainly through reading a ton of books as a child, with the result that I'd never use would of but have been wrong in my assumption of the pronunciation of some less-common words or names before I heard someone else say them.
My experience is similar to yours, Greg_Ace, in that I also read voraciously and am amazed today at how many of the unheard words in my large vocabulary I mispronounce. Today's example is concomitant -- and I mean today because I heard it spoken tonight on the BBC World Service, which runs from midnight to four (or five on weekends) on NPR. And my smattering of French is even worse. But at least I have my Stegosaur brain to help as in my Samsung Galaxy S21e in my hip pocket. Which has a mindlessness of its own in the way it constantly tries to rewrite every other word I try to tap out on it. Oh, God, if only I could figure out how to drive a stake into the heart of Autocorrect. It truly is the enemy of not just me but us all as I'd never use would of but have been wrong seems to suggest.
posted by y2karl at 4:55 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
My experience is similar to yours, Greg_Ace, in that I also read voraciously and am amazed today at how many of the unheard words in my large vocabulary I mispronounce. Today's example is concomitant -- and I mean today because I heard it spoken tonight on the BBC World Service, which runs from midnight to four (or five on weekends) on NPR. And my smattering of French is even worse. But at least I have my Stegosaur brain to help as in my Samsung Galaxy S21e in my hip pocket. Which has a mindlessness of its own in the way it constantly tries to rewrite every other word I try to tap out on it. Oh, God, if only I could figure out how to drive a stake into the heart of Autocorrect. It truly is the enemy of not just me but us all as I'd never use would of but have been wrong seems to suggest.
posted by y2karl at 4:55 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
My favorite new word, by the way, is proctosculatory, which I picked up from who else but Jack Vance.
posted by y2karl at 5:07 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 5:07 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Spotted in the wild! This sentence from the local San Francisco rag SF Gate : The cuisine is top notch, including a prefix menu with specialties like beef short ribs...
I don't think I've ever seen this "prefix"misspelling before. But it's cute. It makes a weird kind of sense. Hope the writer gets good French benifits.
posted by mono blanco at 5:50 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't think I've ever seen this "prefix"misspelling before. But it's cute. It makes a weird kind of sense. Hope the writer gets good French benifits.
posted by mono blanco at 5:50 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I can't stand gift for give. But I can see a kind of sense in it. "She gave me half of her sandwich," but "she gifted me season tickets to the theater." I'm not going to use it, but I will tamp down my howls of agony when I hear it.
Hey, this is just an observation not a peeve or anything, but the British emphasis on units of measure in something like "fifty miles away" mystifies me. Like they're ensuring no confusion: "I drove to my friend's house, which was about five miles [not five feet] from my grandmother's house." In US English there might be a slight drag-out on the second syllable of "away" in "x miles away," (like the difference between to and too), and in British English, they pound down on miles very distinctly, and I don't get why. Maybe the US "three miles awaay" is less subtle than I think, though, and maybe it sounds just as weird to British ears as "three miles away" sounds to me. Neither emphasis makes any sense, now that I think about it.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:20 AM on April 24, 2023
Hey, this is just an observation not a peeve or anything, but the British emphasis on units of measure in something like "fifty miles away" mystifies me. Like they're ensuring no confusion: "I drove to my friend's house, which was about five miles [not five feet] from my grandmother's house." In US English there might be a slight drag-out on the second syllable of "away" in "x miles away," (like the difference between to and too), and in British English, they pound down on miles very distinctly, and I don't get why. Maybe the US "three miles awaay" is less subtle than I think, though, and maybe it sounds just as weird to British ears as "three miles away" sounds to me. Neither emphasis makes any sense, now that I think about it.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:20 AM on April 24, 2023
All of this is completely orthogonal to my point
That's right! Despite even going so far as quoting you, I completely flew right past the "intransitive" bit. My apologies for the error and the distraction.
All the same, I don't see this usage as especially irksome or out of place but it may again be the jargon thing.
Version 14.0.2 released last week, for example, and things went really very smoothly because we'd really nailed the scope of change down where we wanted it. Version 14.1 will release next month, and that will be the last version in the 14 series we'll work on before we set our sights a little higher. We have a whole chain of releases lined up behind that, and we'll be working on refining the release processes to get things moving even more rapidly and with less fooferaw so we can just let the release release.
posted by majick at 6:47 AM on April 24, 2023
That's right! Despite even going so far as quoting you, I completely flew right past the "intransitive" bit. My apologies for the error and the distraction.
All the same, I don't see this usage as especially irksome or out of place but it may again be the jargon thing.
Version 14.0.2 released last week, for example, and things went really very smoothly because we'd really nailed the scope of change down where we wanted it. Version 14.1 will release next month, and that will be the last version in the 14 series we'll work on before we set our sights a little higher. We have a whole chain of releases lined up behind that, and we'll be working on refining the release processes to get things moving even more rapidly and with less fooferaw so we can just let the release release.
posted by majick at 6:47 AM on April 24, 2023
the British emphasis on units of measure in something like "fifty miles away" mystifies me
I've noticed that people in the UK often mix measurement systems (such as miles and kilometers) seemingly at whim, so maybe the emphasis on miles is so that listeners are alerted that kilometers are not being used in this case.
I remember a QI episode where Stephen Fry noted that Brits often use Centigrade for cold temperatures and Fahrenheit for hot ones, to emphasize their extreme quality - for instance "It got down to 10 (C) last night!" vs. "It's was 85 (F) before noon today!"
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:22 AM on April 24, 2023
I've noticed that people in the UK often mix measurement systems (such as miles and kilometers) seemingly at whim, so maybe the emphasis on miles is so that listeners are alerted that kilometers are not being used in this case.
I remember a QI episode where Stephen Fry noted that Brits often use Centigrade for cold temperatures and Fahrenheit for hot ones, to emphasize their extreme quality - for instance "It got down to 10 (C) last night!" vs. "It's was 85 (F) before noon today!"
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:22 AM on April 24, 2023
“Graduated college” bugs me. “Graduated from college” is correct. Some time ago, it was considered correct to say a person was graduated from college. I'm pretty comfortable with changing grammar, unless it obscures intent. Some now define literally as informal used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true., which annoys me a fair bit.
posted by theora55 at 8:33 AM on April 24, 2023
posted by theora55 at 8:33 AM on April 24, 2023
OH MY GOD how has nobody mentioned the recent emergence of "based off of"??? It doesn't make ANY SENSE. I realize I'm shouting; sorry, but BASED OFF OF????
I truly wish I had learned a useful trade like plumbing or auto repair
posted by scratch at 8:37 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I truly wish I had learned a useful trade like plumbing or auto repair
posted by scratch at 8:37 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
The thing that bugs me in English is the acceptance of the word "orientate." The word you're looking for is "orient." You get "oriented." You do no get "orientated." You can't just take a verb, turn it into a noun, then turn it back into a verb, sucking in an extra syllable as you do so. That is some nine times through an autotranslator kind of bullshit.
Let me presentate a list of reasons why that is wrong. I can citate many examples. I would characterizate the use of the word "orientate" as a moral failing. Do not attempt to rationalizate its use. I don't care if you're British; I am going to need you to discontinuate that immediately. If you do not, I am going to experimentate on you and you may end up hospitalizated.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:48 AM on April 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
Let me presentate a list of reasons why that is wrong. I can citate many examples. I would characterizate the use of the word "orientate" as a moral failing. Do not attempt to rationalizate its use. I don't care if you're British; I am going to need you to discontinuate that immediately. If you do not, I am going to experimentate on you and you may end up hospitalizated.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:48 AM on April 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
Anyone else rubbed the wrong way by "learnings"?
posted by mark k at 9:38 AM on April 24, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by mark k at 9:38 AM on April 24, 2023 [10 favorites]
dropping the -ed from verbs that end in t. Like “the dog just wanted to be pet”
"She text me yesterday." I try to soothe myself that text as a verb is a fairly new usage, and why shouldn't it be an irregular verb, but honestly it Sounds Wrong. I want people to say "texted" for the past tense, dammit!
And yes, I need a hug.
posted by jaruwaan at 9:49 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
"She text me yesterday." I try to soothe myself that text as a verb is a fairly new usage, and why shouldn't it be an irregular verb, but honestly it Sounds Wrong. I want people to say "texted" for the past tense, dammit!
And yes, I need a hug.
posted by jaruwaan at 9:49 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anyone else rubbed the wrong way by "learnings"?
YES!!! Especially if they came from a "convening."
posted by jgirl at 9:59 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I remember a QI episode where Stephen Fry noted that Brits often use Centigrade for cold temperatures and Fahrenheit for hot ones, to emphasize their extreme quality
I've lived in the UK nearly two decades, and I have never once heard or seen anyone using Fahrenheit for anything. Not saying they don't exist, but that cute idea about scale switching doesn't really pan out as a general rule.
posted by Dysk at 10:33 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've lived in the UK nearly two decades, and I have never once heard or seen anyone using Fahrenheit for anything. Not saying they don't exist, but that cute idea about scale switching doesn't really pan out as a general rule.
posted by Dysk at 10:33 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am not sure it is grammar, but it is relative to communication in this modern world in which we live. I HATE when grown men (and women) use emojis instead of words. Grown men should not be using emojis to communicate. At my age, around 60, I cannot even make out what the emoji is conveying.
Interesting (to me at least), NY Yankees manager Aaron Boone has his own grammar annoyance that he went public with the other day. After Garrett Cole pitched 9 innings and gave up zero runs, he was quibbling with reporters about the term "complete game shutout". Boone says that that phrase has a redundancy in it. A "shutout" IS ALWAYS a complete game. He will always say, "Cole pitched a shutout." Not, Cole pitched a "complete game shutout".
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:37 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Interesting (to me at least), NY Yankees manager Aaron Boone has his own grammar annoyance that he went public with the other day. After Garrett Cole pitched 9 innings and gave up zero runs, he was quibbling with reporters about the term "complete game shutout". Boone says that that phrase has a redundancy in it. A "shutout" IS ALWAYS a complete game. He will always say, "Cole pitched a shutout." Not, Cole pitched a "complete game shutout".
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:37 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Brits use a very funky mix of metric and imperial, but we're reasonably consistent about which units we use for particular things. We drive in miles, we run short distances in meters and kilometres, we run long distances in miles. We talk about our height and weight in feet/inches and stones, except with babies. We cook in metric but drink beer in pints. I never heard anybody talk about distances between two places in kilometres.
The one place we do use the two more interchangeably is when talking about the size of rooms in a house, where metres and feet seem to be used equally, although square metres seem a lot more common than square feet.
I also have never (in over 40 years) met a Brit who talked about temperature in Fahrenheit. As a fairly well educated person I don't even know which Fahrenheit numbers correspond to what kind of temperatures.
posted by quacks like a duck at 11:26 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
The one place we do use the two more interchangeably is when talking about the size of rooms in a house, where metres and feet seem to be used equally, although square metres seem a lot more common than square feet.
I also have never (in over 40 years) met a Brit who talked about temperature in Fahrenheit. As a fairly well educated person I don't even know which Fahrenheit numbers correspond to what kind of temperatures.
posted by quacks like a duck at 11:26 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
truly wish I had learned a useful trade like plumbing
Trades not only lean heavily ungrammatical they also make up stuff on the regular and it varies by region.
posted by Mitheral at 12:26 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Trades not only lean heavily ungrammatical they also make up stuff on the regular and it varies by region.
posted by Mitheral at 12:26 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
It appears I have been led astray by Stephen Fry. :/
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:36 PM on April 24, 2023
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:36 PM on April 24, 2023
I think it used to be pretty common for body temperature to be recorded in Fahrenheit in the UK. Certainly in my life (51) that was pretty common, though I think that's changed in the last couple of decades.
posted by biffa at 1:46 PM on April 24, 2023
posted by biffa at 1:46 PM on April 24, 2023
Where I grew up we said that things happen "on purpose" or "by accident". I have lived in the PNW for 26 years and still can't wrap my brain around things that happen "on accident" out here.
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:48 PM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:48 PM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Trades not only lean heavily ungrammatical
Grocer's have their own apostrophes.
One of my greatest achievements as an academic was taking a PhD student who could write five thousand words without getting a single apostrophe in the right place, and getting her to join civilisation. She got a PhD too.
posted by biffa at 2:00 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Grocer's have their own apostrophes.
One of my greatest achievements as an academic was taking a PhD student who could write five thousand words without getting a single apostrophe in the right place, and getting her to join civilisation. She got a PhD too.
posted by biffa at 2:00 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Someone on the BBC, on a recorded commentary, just described a border as dissecting a lake.
posted by biffa at 2:03 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by biffa at 2:03 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Someone on the BBC, on a recorded commentary, just described a border as dissecting a lake.
It's archaic, but that's the original meaning of dissect.
OED:
It's archaic, but that's the original meaning of dissect.
OED:
1. transitive. To cut asunder, cut in pieces, divide by cutting. literal and figurative.posted by zamboni at 2:18 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hallow instead of hollow.
Itched instead of scratched.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:01 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Itched instead of scratched.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:01 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have recently discovered a new language pet peeve in the Emacs documentation. There's a very specific construct, "which see," that I find all over the place in the manuals and function/variable doc-strings that sounds really off to me and also seems entirely unnecessary. For instance:
posted by duien at 3:54 PM on April 24, 2023
Place aIt's entirely possible that this is totally normal technical writing style, but I've never encountered it elsewhere and it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me for no particular reason that I can figure out. It just sounds so awkward!font-lock-multilineproperty on the construct. This will rehighlight the whole construct if any part of it is changed. In some cases you can do this automatically by setting thefont-lock-multilinevariable, which see.
posted by duien at 3:54 PM on April 24, 2023
Lately the thing that really irritates me is lack of subject-verb agreement when the subject and verb are separated by other words. It doesn't bother me quite as much in speech, because I understand it can be hard to keep track of what you're saying, so you wind up agreeing with the nearest noun instead of the subject of the sentence ("one of the things that bother me"). When it happens in writing, it irritates me a whole lot more. Today I encountered the following sentence from a published writer (and a good one too) which had me groaning aloud: "Writing books are hard." I really hope he was doing that on purpose, the way I say "I English good" when I find myself getting tongue-tied and stumbling over my words in speech.
posted by Athanassiel at 4:07 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Athanassiel at 4:07 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have recently discovered a new language pet peeve in the Emacs documentation. There's a very specific construct, "which see," that I find all over the place in the manuals and function/variable doc-strings that sounds really off to me and also seems entirely unnecessary.
q.v. quod vide or q.v.
posted by zamboni at 4:17 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
q.v. quod vide or q.v.
posted by zamboni at 4:17 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
I actually found a reference to "q.v." in the Glossary section of the manual when I was trying to find a specific usage for my comment, but I've never actually seen the latin version anywhere in the docs (or anywhere else that I can recall, though I've certainly seen plenty of other similar latin abbreviations). I suspect that someone decided that the latin was needlessly confusing and replaced it. I definitely appreciate the impulse for more accessible language, but the English version just doesn't work as a one-for-one replacement.
posted by duien at 4:47 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by duien at 4:47 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have to listen to something vaguely familiar so I can fall asleep at night. For the last few weeks I’ve been putting Forensic Files on repeat when I go to bed. I have to tally the grammatical and continuity errors Peter Thomas made as a narrator. His voice was so soothing even though murderers always showed up in my REM sleep I had a crush on him.
posted by bendy at 5:52 PM on April 24, 2023
posted by bendy at 5:52 PM on April 24, 2023
"led astray by Stephen Fry"
...sigh...
I just had a bit of a moment there, thinking what that would be like.
It was much more :) than :/.
Stephen Fry is welcome any time he pleases to lead me miles astray.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:11 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
...sigh...
I just had a bit of a moment there, thinking what that would be like.
It was much more :) than :/.
Stephen Fry is welcome any time he pleases to lead me miles astray.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:11 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Today I encountered the following sentence from a published writer (and a good one too) which had me groaning aloud: "Writing books are hard."
I also find it tough going to read books about writing. I prefer fiction books.
posted by Dysk at 6:20 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I also find it tough going to read books about writing. I prefer fiction books.
posted by Dysk at 6:20 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hearing "less" when the subject in question is countable (and the word "fewer" would be more appropriate) sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. Less rain, fewer raindrops. Argh!
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 6:43 PM on April 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 6:43 PM on April 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'd like to advice metafilter that if you need my advise, I'll be over here banging my head against the wall.
posted by Thella at 7:31 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Thella at 7:31 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hallow instead of hollow.
Hollowed be thy n e.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:34 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hollowed be thy n e.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:34 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
It doesn't bother me quite as much in speech, because I understand it can be hard to keep track of what you're saying, so you wind up agreeing with the nearest noun instead of the subject of the sentence ("one of the things that bother me").
Waiiiiiit. Should it be "bothers"? My ear suddenly lacks all convinction, but my brain wants "bother". Pressed for further comment, she remarks that "one of the things that bother me" is not a sentence at all, but a noun phrase consisting of a noun and a prepositional phrase. The object of that prepositional phrase is "the things that bother me"; it could hardly be "the things that bothers me". (But then, "one of the things that bothers me the most"...? What even is that, grammatically?)
I'm afraid I overindulged in this thread's righteous vexation and am now suffering the hangover of self-doubt. Beware, my friends, as you pass by.
posted by aws17576 at 8:36 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Waiiiiiit. Should it be "bothers"? My ear suddenly lacks all convinction, but my brain wants "bother". Pressed for further comment, she remarks that "one of the things that bother me" is not a sentence at all, but a noun phrase consisting of a noun and a prepositional phrase. The object of that prepositional phrase is "the things that bother me"; it could hardly be "the things that bothers me". (But then, "one of the things that bothers me the most"...? What even is that, grammatically?)
I'm afraid I overindulged in this thread's righteous vexation and am now suffering the hangover of self-doubt. Beware, my friends, as you pass by.
posted by aws17576 at 8:36 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Metafilter: the hangover of self-doubt
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:08 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:08 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Inspired by my most recent annoyance at "read" being the same in all tenses.
My biggest issue with that is that it has infected a rhyming verb, and now the word “led” is vanishing beneath the waves. “He led an eventful life until his death last year,” was a perfectly understandable sentence. In the last decade, it seems to have become more common to write, “He lead an eventful life until his death last year.” (The spelling and pronunciation and possibly ingestion of the metal may have contributed.) In the same vein, I have noticed “impostor” shifting by degrees to “imposter,” which does not even get a red squiggle any more.
I used to lead a more prescriptivist life, but these days, I focus my attention elsewhere. I still grind away a bit of tooth enamel at “of” for “have,” as in “you should of gone” (or, worse, “you should of went.”)
I find that most of this raging against the dying of the light is futile at best and misguided at worst. My favourite tale of someone realizing prescriptivism is an error is from Canadian journalist Bob Blackburn, who wrote an enjoyable book called Words Fail Us. In it, he mentions the moment he abandoned a crusade against a particular misuse that irritated him. He writes — and I am paraphrasing here, as I read the book once, decades ago — that his personal bugbear was the phrase, “try and.” He loathed it as a useless addition, never adding meaning to a sentence. “I’ll try and send the letter tomorrow”? No, no, he said: if you send it, there is nothing added by declaring you will try as well as actually doing it.
Blackburn was fulminating about this to his officemate and declared he was taking a stand: henceforth, Blackburn declared, he would make it his life’s mission to banish utterly the pointless verbiage “try and” from English.
His office mate regarded him coolly, and said, “You’ll try and fail.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:23 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
My biggest issue with that is that it has infected a rhyming verb, and now the word “led” is vanishing beneath the waves. “He led an eventful life until his death last year,” was a perfectly understandable sentence. In the last decade, it seems to have become more common to write, “He lead an eventful life until his death last year.” (The spelling and pronunciation and possibly ingestion of the metal may have contributed.) In the same vein, I have noticed “impostor” shifting by degrees to “imposter,” which does not even get a red squiggle any more.
I used to lead a more prescriptivist life, but these days, I focus my attention elsewhere. I still grind away a bit of tooth enamel at “of” for “have,” as in “you should of gone” (or, worse, “you should of went.”)
I find that most of this raging against the dying of the light is futile at best and misguided at worst. My favourite tale of someone realizing prescriptivism is an error is from Canadian journalist Bob Blackburn, who wrote an enjoyable book called Words Fail Us. In it, he mentions the moment he abandoned a crusade against a particular misuse that irritated him. He writes — and I am paraphrasing here, as I read the book once, decades ago — that his personal bugbear was the phrase, “try and.” He loathed it as a useless addition, never adding meaning to a sentence. “I’ll try and send the letter tomorrow”? No, no, he said: if you send it, there is nothing added by declaring you will try as well as actually doing it.
Blackburn was fulminating about this to his officemate and declared he was taking a stand: henceforth, Blackburn declared, he would make it his life’s mission to banish utterly the pointless verbiage “try and” from English.
His office mate regarded him coolly, and said, “You’ll try and fail.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:23 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've noticed that people in the UK often mix measurement systems (such as miles and kilometers) seemingly at whim,
Canada shifted some forty years ago, and while everything is, strictly speaking, metric, there are some casual holdovers because of the cultural shadow of the US. Temperatures are always reported in Celsius, but my wife — three years my senior — is more secure in her choice of clothing for the day if she hears them in Fahrenheit.
Food is sold in grams, but recipes use teaspoons and ounces and the like. And no one thinks of their personal height and weight in cm and kg. Indeed, when I got some ID issued by the province some years ago, I filled in the form and brought it to the clerk. The one thing that was on the ID that was absent from the form is height.
As she entered the data, she asked me my height. I said “Six-foot-one and a bit.”
The clerk smiled and shook her head, asking me the height in cm. I pondered for a second or two and reported “188.” She acknowledged this but I saw her hit three separate keys on the keypad.
A couple of weeks later my ID arrived by mail; my height was listed as 186. I was puzzled by this but measured myself subsequently and by god, I am 186, the government of Ontario has made by two cm shorter.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:42 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Canada shifted some forty years ago, and while everything is, strictly speaking, metric, there are some casual holdovers because of the cultural shadow of the US. Temperatures are always reported in Celsius, but my wife — three years my senior — is more secure in her choice of clothing for the day if she hears them in Fahrenheit.
Food is sold in grams, but recipes use teaspoons and ounces and the like. And no one thinks of their personal height and weight in cm and kg. Indeed, when I got some ID issued by the province some years ago, I filled in the form and brought it to the clerk. The one thing that was on the ID that was absent from the form is height.
As she entered the data, she asked me my height. I said “Six-foot-one and a bit.”
The clerk smiled and shook her head, asking me the height in cm. I pondered for a second or two and reported “188.” She acknowledged this but I saw her hit three separate keys on the keypad.
A couple of weeks later my ID arrived by mail; my height was listed as 186. I was puzzled by this but measured myself subsequently and by god, I am 186, the government of Ontario has made by two cm shorter.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:42 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
("one of the things that bother me").
Waiiiiiit. Should it be "bothers"?
I think 'bother' is right! It is one thing from the set of things that bother me, not one thing that bothers me from the set of all things. ... but if I were saying the phrase, I almost certainly would say "one of the things that bothers me," dunno why.
I guess my biggest peeve is people arguing about the serial comma. I used to be one of them! Specifically, on the pro-usage side. But then I had to start working routinely in French, where I've never seen it used, and I've also never seen its absence cause a problem. Sure, you can come up with tortured examples where if people do expect it then not having it causes confusion, but you can just as easily come up with ones where if it's there when you don't expect it, confusion results. If you are that worried about ambiguity, just re-write your damn sentence so you aren't implying your parents are JFK and a panda or whatever the fuck people are using to make that argument these days.
posted by solotoro at 10:01 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Waiiiiiit. Should it be "bothers"?
I think 'bother' is right! It is one thing from the set of things that bother me, not one thing that bothers me from the set of all things. ... but if I were saying the phrase, I almost certainly would say "one of the things that bothers me," dunno why.
I guess my biggest peeve is people arguing about the serial comma. I used to be one of them! Specifically, on the pro-usage side. But then I had to start working routinely in French, where I've never seen it used, and I've also never seen its absence cause a problem. Sure, you can come up with tortured examples where if people do expect it then not having it causes confusion, but you can just as easily come up with ones where if it's there when you don't expect it, confusion results. If you are that worried about ambiguity, just re-write your damn sentence so you aren't implying your parents are JFK and a panda or whatever the fuck people are using to make that argument these days.
posted by solotoro at 10:01 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
“impostor” shifting by degrees to “imposter”
Comedic "impressions" became "impersonations," but no one's kiting checks.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:29 PM on April 24, 2023
Comedic "impressions" became "impersonations," but no one's kiting checks.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:29 PM on April 24, 2023
See, the disease of subject-verb agreement is pernicious! The subject of the phrase "one of the things that bother(s?) me" is one, not things. One thing bothers me. Two or more things bother me. Therefore "one of the things that bother me" is not correct.
Would it be clearer in a full sentence? One of the things that bothers me is lack of subject-vetb agreement. Not: one of the things that bother me are subject-verb agreement.
posted by Athanassiel at 10:46 PM on April 24, 2023
Would it be clearer in a full sentence? One of the things that bothers me is lack of subject-vetb agreement. Not: one of the things that bother me are subject-verb agreement.
posted by Athanassiel at 10:46 PM on April 24, 2023
One of the things that bother me is that I still think the subject of "bother" is "things" in this example, because "things that bother me" is the object of the preposition "of."
Put another way, there are many things that bother me, and that is one of them.
posted by solotoro at 11:59 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Put another way, there are many things that bother me, and that is one of them.
posted by solotoro at 11:59 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Btw I am having fun dissecting (sorry, biffa!) this, but if you aren't, in the spirit of the rest of my first comment, we can just say "one thing that bothers me" and call it a day.
posted by solotoro at 12:07 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by solotoro at 12:07 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Apparently it's really easy to mix up 'wander' and 'wonder'. I wonder if that happens when people let their minds wander.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:16 AM on April 25, 2023
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:16 AM on April 25, 2023
There’s a park nearby I wander about.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:02 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:02 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’ve spent the past four decades bristling with irritation when people say “crumble” when they mean “crumple.” No, you did not crumble that paper, her face did not crumble when she read the sad news, the car’s door did not crumble when it was hit by a brick. What, is your car made of toast? Terracotta?
And I know. I know it’s unfair of me because not everyone can hear the difference between the two sounds. But plenty of people who pronounce words like “purple” just fine still say “crumble.”
posted by corey flood at 6:27 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
And I know. I know it’s unfair of me because not everyone can hear the difference between the two sounds. But plenty of people who pronounce words like “purple” just fine still say “crumble.”
posted by corey flood at 6:27 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I get really annoyed at journalists who use "hits out" to describe verbal altercations in politics. No physical contact was made by either party. Please choose better wording. Criticize. Retort. Reply.
posted by effluvia at 7:32 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by effluvia at 7:32 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not all those who wonder are rewatching Lost.
posted by cortex (retired) at 8:21 AM on April 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by cortex (retired) at 8:21 AM on April 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Another word whose meaning has drifted badly in the UK is refuted, with politicians often claiming to have refuted something when all they have done is deny it.
posted by biffa at 8:53 AM on April 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by biffa at 8:53 AM on April 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Grammar are one of the things that bother me.
posted by snofoam at 9:18 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 9:18 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
"Begs the question" instead of "Raises the question." Makes my back teeth hurt.
And then there is the total destruction of the once useful "meta," I've no idea what it is supposed to mean anymore it is tossed about so much.
posted by charlesminus at 9:31 AM on April 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
And then there is the total destruction of the once useful "meta," I've no idea what it is supposed to mean anymore it is tossed about so much.
posted by charlesminus at 9:31 AM on April 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
Those of us of a certain age went through the same thing in the eighties with “postmodern.” What is it exactly? We’re not quite sure, but it was everywhere.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:51 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:51 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
More and more I'm seeing "apart of" (instead of "a part of"), which is just so wrong.
posted by mpark at 10:04 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mpark at 10:04 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, when did we start "speaking to" issues, instead of "speaking on" or "speaking about" them.
"I can't speak to the timeline, Bob." No you sure can't, Dave. It's a list of dates and activities in the PM's spreadsheet. It isn't sentient, cannot hear you, and cannot answer.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:24 AM on April 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
"I can't speak to the timeline, Bob." No you sure can't, Dave. It's a list of dates and activities in the PM's spreadsheet. It isn't sentient, cannot hear you, and cannot answer.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:24 AM on April 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
the car’s door did not crumble when it was hit by a brick.
That's the way the Mercedes Bends...
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:34 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's the way the Mercedes Bends...
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:34 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, when did we start "speaking to" issues, instead of "speaking on" or "speaking about" them.
c. 1610.
posted by zamboni at 10:50 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
c. 1610.
posted by zamboni at 10:50 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
No you sure can't, Dave. It's a list of dates and activities in the PM's spreadsheet. It isn't sentient, cannot hear you, and cannot answer.
If you aren't speaking to your TV, are you even watching the program?
c. 1610.
It does the opposite of vex me when someone complains about a perceived new usage, and someone else demonstrates that the usage is significantly older than the complainer.
posted by solotoro at 10:56 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you aren't speaking to your TV, are you even watching the program?
c. 1610.
It does the opposite of vex me when someone complains about a perceived new usage, and someone else demonstrates that the usage is significantly older than the complainer.
posted by solotoro at 10:56 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
1610?
Going forward then, I have no choice but to respond to people saying they're speaking to something by saying, "Verily! Forthwith my good ſir!" and then playing a lute.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:07 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Going forward then, I have no choice but to respond to people saying they're speaking to something by saying, "Verily! Forthwith my good ſir!" and then playing a lute.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:07 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
There has been a recent (meaning the past 10 years) explosion of people using the word "discrete" when they mean "discreet". It drives me insane, and it's so common now, I think people honestly are unaware they're different words.
posted by timepiece at 11:31 AM on April 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by timepiece at 11:31 AM on April 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
mpark: More and more I'm seeing "apart of" (instead of "a part of"), which is just so wrong.
Oh yes. I see that alot.
timepiece: There has been a recent (meaning the past 10 years) explosion of people using the word "discrete" when they mean "discreet".
A friend of mine made up a mnemonic just for me, because I had trouble remembering which was which:
Be discreet
Don't tell the whole street.
The friend is no longer alive but I still use the mnemonic now and then, and it always makes me remember him fondly. Thanks, Mike!
The Dutch word for mnemonic, by the way, is 'ezelsbrug' which means donkey bridge. Mike understood enough Dutch to find that funny.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:40 PM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh yes. I see that alot.
timepiece: There has been a recent (meaning the past 10 years) explosion of people using the word "discrete" when they mean "discreet".
A friend of mine made up a mnemonic just for me, because I had trouble remembering which was which:
Be discreet
Don't tell the whole street.
The friend is no longer alive but I still use the mnemonic now and then, and it always makes me remember him fondly. Thanks, Mike!
The Dutch word for mnemonic, by the way, is 'ezelsbrug' which means donkey bridge. Mike understood enough Dutch to find that funny.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:40 PM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Kattullus: High German is a collection of dialects spoken in the mountainous southern parts of the German-speaking world, such as Bavarian, Swabian, Austrian, Swiss and many other types of German. The "high" isn't a social marker, but a geographical one, like in "highland".
It's slightly more complicated than that.
First "High German" (Hochdeutsch) is used ambiguously (see linked disambiguation page at Wikipedia).
The definition you've provided is the one linguists would use prescriptively.
In common usage, however, it often refers to what is also known as "Standard German" to linguists. Interestingly, Standard German is largely based on the linguists' "High German". Standard German (and there are at least three variants - German Standard German, Austrian Standard German and Swiss Standard German) was developed as a common way of writing that most German speakers, despite regional dialects, would be able to understand.
fantabulous timewaster: I think the ad absurdum here might be High German, which I understand is a formal dialect that no one actually speaks at home.
Which brings us to the other common meaning of "High German". Here it is used by German speakers to refer to how someone speaks, specifically when a person speaks according to the writing-based rules of Standard German and with a "TV German" or "Stage German" accent, which is generally similar to a common Hanoverian accent.
In this third meaning, someone who grew up in southern Austria will definitely be able to speak their local dialect, but they may also be able to speak Hochdeutsch (spoken), adjusting their accent to "Stage German" and their grammar and choice of words to match that of the Hochdeutsch (Standard German) which is largely based on Hochdeutsch (as commonly defined by linguists).
Interestingly, although the "High" in "High German" didn't originally have anything to do with the speaker's station in life, in modern times, someone who can speak "High German" well, in addition to their local dialect, is generally regarded as well-educated, of higher intelligence or possibly from a higher class than a peer who has only mastered their local dialect.
posted by syzygy at 1:00 PM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's slightly more complicated than that.
First "High German" (Hochdeutsch) is used ambiguously (see linked disambiguation page at Wikipedia).
The definition you've provided is the one linguists would use prescriptively.
In common usage, however, it often refers to what is also known as "Standard German" to linguists. Interestingly, Standard German is largely based on the linguists' "High German". Standard German (and there are at least three variants - German Standard German, Austrian Standard German and Swiss Standard German) was developed as a common way of writing that most German speakers, despite regional dialects, would be able to understand.
fantabulous timewaster: I think the ad absurdum here might be High German, which I understand is a formal dialect that no one actually speaks at home.
Which brings us to the other common meaning of "High German". Here it is used by German speakers to refer to how someone speaks, specifically when a person speaks according to the writing-based rules of Standard German and with a "TV German" or "Stage German" accent, which is generally similar to a common Hanoverian accent.
In this third meaning, someone who grew up in southern Austria will definitely be able to speak their local dialect, but they may also be able to speak Hochdeutsch (spoken), adjusting their accent to "Stage German" and their grammar and choice of words to match that of the Hochdeutsch (Standard German) which is largely based on Hochdeutsch (as commonly defined by linguists).
Interestingly, although the "High" in "High German" didn't originally have anything to do with the speaker's station in life, in modern times, someone who can speak "High German" well, in addition to their local dialect, is generally regarded as well-educated, of higher intelligence or possibly from a higher class than a peer who has only mastered their local dialect.
posted by syzygy at 1:00 PM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
And because this is the right thread/crowd: Orthographic Distinctions from Henry Fool.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:39 PM on April 25, 2023
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:39 PM on April 25, 2023
Hallow instead of hollow.
Hollowed be thy n e.
I guess that would also work for names like Bob, Tom, Joy, Brooks, Woody ...
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:18 PM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hollowed be thy n e.
I guess that would also work for names like Bob, Tom, Joy, Brooks, Woody ...
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:18 PM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
One gripe I have is a peculiar business-speak usage of solve, to mean, essentially, solution. If this isn't bad enough, because solve is now pulling double duty, I've also heard people use solution as a verb, i.e solve and solution have now swapped places, for no good reason. But hey, language is a living thing, let's just do a descriptivism here and be ok with it.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 4:20 PM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Jon Mitchell at 4:20 PM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Someone should drop those people into a solution so they dis-solve.
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:56 PM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:56 PM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've heard "solve" as a noun a lot when I watch people solve very complicated sudoku on Youtube, to mean "the entire solution path" or "the entire process of solving this puzzle" - e.g., "That was a very enjoyable solve." For some reason I have never mentally flagged it as odd, annoying, or remarkable in any way. But this seems, perhaps, different from the business-speak usage of "solve." I don't think you could swap "solution" for it; "that was a very enjoyable solution," to me, would mean a puzzle that was very enjoyable only once you had solved it, rather than a puzzle that was enjoyable throughout the entire solution process.
Of course, YMMV, but I kind of enjoy when new words arise to fill a lexical gap. I have long lamented the lack of a great English translation for the Japanese word kuyashii, whose meanings include "that feeling when your rival beats you" and "that feeling when you were nearly good enough to win that thing you really wanted, but not quite." And when I started hearing people use the word "salty" when they were mad at getting beaten in video games, I couldn't help thinking - aha, at last, a good translation for kuyashii!
posted by Jeanne at 6:11 PM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Of course, YMMV, but I kind of enjoy when new words arise to fill a lexical gap. I have long lamented the lack of a great English translation for the Japanese word kuyashii, whose meanings include "that feeling when your rival beats you" and "that feeling when you were nearly good enough to win that thing you really wanted, but not quite." And when I started hearing people use the word "salty" when they were mad at getting beaten in video games, I couldn't help thinking - aha, at last, a good translation for kuyashii!
posted by Jeanne at 6:11 PM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
A little part of me dies every time someone writes “per say” when they mean per se.
Also, I think it’s a noble thing to learn how to spell the words that describe some core part of one’s identity. You are not “prednate,” you are not “a women,” you are not an “athiest,” and you are not “detailed orientated.”
I wish I were making any of these up.
posted by armeowda at 7:27 PM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also, I think it’s a noble thing to learn how to spell the words that describe some core part of one’s identity. You are not “prednate,” you are not “a women,” you are not an “athiest,” and you are not “detailed orientated.”
I wish I were making any of these up.
posted by armeowda at 7:27 PM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
It isn't sentient, cannot hear you, and cannot answer.
Just because it's not sentient, doesn't mean you can't talk to it. I talk to my car all the time.
posted by dg at 7:48 PM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just because it's not sentient, doesn't mean you can't talk to it. I talk to my car all the time.
posted by dg at 7:48 PM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
not bad grammar per se but I am impressed at how often I hear somebody say, "at the end of the day, it is what it is."
posted by philip-random at 11:42 PM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by philip-random at 11:42 PM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some people think it's irrational because it doesn't matter to them and some think it's rational because it does matter to them. Circular logic.
I don't think it's irrational because it doesn't matter to me. It's irrational because it involves believing in something that has never existed, and never will - "proper", unchanging English.
posted by some little punk in a rocket at 5:51 AM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't think it's irrational because it doesn't matter to me. It's irrational because it involves believing in something that has never existed, and never will - "proper", unchanging English.
posted by some little punk in a rocket at 5:51 AM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Um, no, they don’t.
To you.
(Fancy caring about the differences between two expressions of the same idiom when even the older dates to the 20th century. Do you have similarly firm views about the shift to "head over heels"?)
posted by some little punk in a rocket at 6:05 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
To you.
(Fancy caring about the differences between two expressions of the same idiom when even the older dates to the 20th century. Do you have similarly firm views about the shift to "head over heels"?)
posted by some little punk in a rocket at 6:05 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
There has been a recent (meaning the past 10 years) explosion of people using the word "discrete" when they mean "discreet".
It’s been more than ten years, I’d say, if only because it was frequent enough for me to be irritated by it on the blue nine years ago. Same thing with “diffuse” and “defuse” — somehow, no matter which one is called for, people seem to guess wrong about 80% of the time.
Also, I think it’s a noble thing to learn how to spell the words that describe some core part of one’s identity.
By the same token, I notice in news story comments sections that people with the strongest (read: most spittle-flecked) opinions on border security inevitably spell the word as “boarders.” And for a long time I was accustomed to see accusations that the mainstream media was... well, not “biased,” but “bias” as an adjective. I had a breakthrough this week when I saw a declaration that the MSM was “buyist.”
Seems like the sort of term of opprobrium that Adbusters might coin.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:39 AM on April 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
It’s been more than ten years, I’d say, if only because it was frequent enough for me to be irritated by it on the blue nine years ago. Same thing with “diffuse” and “defuse” — somehow, no matter which one is called for, people seem to guess wrong about 80% of the time.
Also, I think it’s a noble thing to learn how to spell the words that describe some core part of one’s identity.
By the same token, I notice in news story comments sections that people with the strongest (read: most spittle-flecked) opinions on border security inevitably spell the word as “boarders.” And for a long time I was accustomed to see accusations that the mainstream media was... well, not “biased,” but “bias” as an adjective. I had a breakthrough this week when I saw a declaration that the MSM was “buyist.”
Seems like the sort of term of opprobrium that Adbusters might coin.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:39 AM on April 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
My only pet peeve is referring to records/LPS as "vinyls." Which is, I suppose, in this new world order, not grammatically correct, but it makes me want to scream. See also "denims" for "jeans."
posted by thivaia at 7:40 AM on April 26, 2023
posted by thivaia at 7:40 AM on April 26, 2023
It kinda matches the well-established "linens", and makes sense as a plural that's moved with contraction: "vinyl records" becoming "vinyls" in order to grammatically function the same seems plausible. I've seen people use "mobiles" for mobile phones similarly.
Totally get being annoyed by little linguistic quirks like that though.
posted by Dysk at 8:06 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Totally get being annoyed by little linguistic quirks like that though.
posted by Dysk at 8:06 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
The phrase "X increased from A to B" as in "The tax rate increased from 5% to 10%".
This pharsing is fine.
What annoys me is when the from and to are reversed, e.g.
"The tax rate increased to 10% from 5%".
Perfectly fine grammatically, but my brain seems to strongly prefer the "from ... to" direction, so having them reversed always stops my reading flow, as I mentally un-reverse them.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 8:23 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
This pharsing is fine.
What annoys me is when the from and to are reversed, e.g.
"The tax rate increased to 10% from 5%".
Perfectly fine grammatically, but my brain seems to strongly prefer the "from ... to" direction, so having them reversed always stops my reading flow, as I mentally un-reverse them.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 8:23 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
you are not “a women,”
I am probably a terrible person for doing this, but every time I see someone claiming to be "a women," I pretty much assume the writer is male.
posted by mochapickle at 8:43 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am probably a terrible person for doing this, but every time I see someone claiming to be "a women," I pretty much assume the writer is male.
posted by mochapickle at 8:43 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
when I saw a declaration that the MSM was “buyist.”
Seems like the sort of term of opprobrium that Adbusters might coin.
Buyist feels like a great term for somebody who's prone to say things like, "What's wrong with being a consumer? Everybody buys things. It's good for economy. It's good for everything. The free world wouldn't work if people didn't buy and consume things."
posted by philip-random at 8:45 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Seems like the sort of term of opprobrium that Adbusters might coin.
Buyist feels like a great term for somebody who's prone to say things like, "What's wrong with being a consumer? Everybody buys things. It's good for economy. It's good for everything. The free world wouldn't work if people didn't buy and consume things."
posted by philip-random at 8:45 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not all those who wonder are rewatching Lost.
But some of us are!
posted by Night_owl at 8:48 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
But some of us are!
posted by Night_owl at 8:48 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
"To adult" or similar use of nouns as verbs is so ugly to me. English is not my mother tongue but something about this construction feels so wrong.
In German what i hate most are sentence constructions which leave out the article, a very popular style in advertising, eg: "Wir sind Sandwich". (Should be: Wir sind das Sandwich / we are the sandwich, a bullshit sentence even with the article).
posted by 15L06 at 10:28 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
In German what i hate most are sentence constructions which leave out the article, a very popular style in advertising, eg: "Wir sind Sandwich". (Should be: Wir sind das Sandwich / we are the sandwich, a bullshit sentence even with the article).
posted by 15L06 at 10:28 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Passed" or "passed away" instead of "died" in news stories makes me silently rage. It's mostly only American print media that does this (which probably has something to do with the USA being so terribly god-haunted); in other countries they just say "died".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:33 AM on April 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:33 AM on April 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Passed" can definitely lead to some serious confusion. I remember years ago my supervisor emailing us that one of the graduates of our internship training program had passed their registration exam, and the email subject was just "[soandso] passed!" It took me a minute to reframe my interpretation.
posted by obfuscation at 12:05 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by obfuscation at 12:05 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Kat Allison: Also; not a grammar/usage issue, but lord, I would love to retire the word "journey" for anything other than a trek across land.
"A story is one simple narrative; a series of related and interdependent stories makes up an epic. "
This, as far as I'm concerned, is correct when it relates to literature.
It's utter balderdash to think these terms might be fit to apply to software development, because stories can range from utterly realistic to one hundred percent fantasy.
I like my software development to not stray from the realistic too much (and that includes delivery timelines).
Atlassian delenda est.
posted by Stoneshop at 12:29 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
"A story is one simple narrative; a series of related and interdependent stories makes up an epic. "
This, as far as I'm concerned, is correct when it relates to literature.
It's utter balderdash to think these terms might be fit to apply to software development, because stories can range from utterly realistic to one hundred percent fantasy.
I like my software development to not stray from the realistic too much (and that includes delivery timelines).
Atlassian delenda est.
posted by Stoneshop at 12:29 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's utter balderdash to think these terms might be fit to apply to software development, because stories can range from utterly realistic to one hundred percent fantasy.
Gaze into the dark and misty portal of The Backlog, a place where the tellers of tales weave the threads of fantasy and reality together without distinction.
posted by majick at 1:11 PM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Gaze into the dark and misty portal of The Backlog, a place where the tellers of tales weave the threads of fantasy and reality together without distinction.
posted by majick at 1:11 PM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
For personal stereos: using the incorrect but more common (and blessed by Sony Corporate) plural term for Walkmen.
- Don't even say it! And pledge to never again!
I was chatting with my parents, who are in their seventies, and we got onto the subject of obituaries. My mother made it very clear that her obituary should not say that she passed on, or passed away, or went to the Lord, or has gone to the sweet embrace of Jesus, or [six other improbable euphemisms]: her obituary should say that SHE FUCKIN DIED.
I promised her that her obituary will, indeed, say that she fuckin died.
[It'll be years and years; Mom’s in great shape.]
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 4:24 PM on April 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
I promised her that her obituary will, indeed, say that she fuckin died.
[It'll be years and years; Mom’s in great shape.]
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 4:24 PM on April 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
I find it jarring to hear someone use a glottal stop instead of a "T" in the middle of a word. I used ti think this was an affectation peculiar to the northeast. It doesn't seem so.
My native language, English, is sliding away from me at an ever-increasing rate of speed. Evolving cultural norms are hijacking my pronouns. It's useless to protest. I'll settle for yelling at the Liberty Mutual ads: "It's 'You pay for only what you need,' you jackasses, not 'You only pay for what you need.'"
posted by mule98J at 4:45 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
My native language, English, is sliding away from me at an ever-increasing rate of speed. Evolving cultural norms are hijacking my pronouns. It's useless to protest. I'll settle for yelling at the Liberty Mutual ads: "It's 'You pay for only what you need,' you jackasses, not 'You only pay for what you need.'"
posted by mule98J at 4:45 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Data" is not plural. It is a mass noun. Even people who correct others for not saying "the data are" almost always use it as a mass noun grammatically in other contexts. They still say things like "data collection" instead of "datum collection," and generally refer to a single measurement as a "data point" instead of "datum."
On one of my own faults:
One of the more annoying things that's happened to me is a shift in how I perceive "decimate." One of the best examples of the etymological fallacy are people who claim that it means "reduce by a tenth." Totally ridiculous--if someone says "My crops were decimated by beetles" you'd be a doofus to respond "Good you have 90% left!" Even the conservative American Heritage usage panel agrees.
And yet for the last five years or so, for some reason, I can't hear without hearing the "decimal" in the root and and thinking it might mean a 10% reduction. It doesn't, and I'm wrong and annoyed I'm being wrong, but it's some weird change in how I process language on an automated level.
posted by mark k at 6:22 PM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
On one of my own faults:
One of the more annoying things that's happened to me is a shift in how I perceive "decimate." One of the best examples of the etymological fallacy are people who claim that it means "reduce by a tenth." Totally ridiculous--if someone says "My crops were decimated by beetles" you'd be a doofus to respond "Good you have 90% left!" Even the conservative American Heritage usage panel agrees.
And yet for the last five years or so, for some reason, I can't hear without hearing the "decimal" in the root and and thinking it might mean a 10% reduction. It doesn't, and I'm wrong and annoyed I'm being wrong, but it's some weird change in how I process language on an automated level.
posted by mark k at 6:22 PM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
you are not an “athiest,”
Perhaps not, but I am athier than most.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:49 PM on April 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
Perhaps not, but I am athier than most.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:49 PM on April 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
passed on
One of my favorite Southern phrases, "gone to be with Jesus" (you can't not say it with a southern accent), somehow charms me enough that I don't bristle at it being a euphemism.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:29 PM on April 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
One of my favorite Southern phrases, "gone to be with Jesus" (you can't not say it with a southern accent), somehow charms me enough that I don't bristle at it being a euphemism.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:29 PM on April 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
My aunt says “holding hands with Jesus” and I am utterly charmed by this. And her accent sounds just like Dolly’s!
posted by mochapickle at 8:08 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mochapickle at 8:08 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
mark k: And yet for the last five years or so, for some reason, I can't hear without hearing the "decimal" in the root and and thinking it might mean a 10% reduction. It doesn't,
Decimation (Latin: decimatio; decem "ten") was a form of Roman military discipline in which every tenth man in a group was executed by members of his cohort.
posted by Stoneshop at 11:16 PM on April 26, 2023
Decimation (Latin: decimatio; decem "ten") was a form of Roman military discipline in which every tenth man in a group was executed by members of his cohort.
posted by Stoneshop at 11:16 PM on April 26, 2023
I do actually see the old school usage from time to time (mostly by gardeners).
posted by Dysk at 11:20 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 11:20 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
So, I don't know exactly where to put this but here, for starters:
posted by y2karl at 6:13 AM on April 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Happy 100th birthday to my Godfather Avram Davidson. Please celebrate his birthday with us as we launch AD 100 (his first collection in over 20 years) and for the next five days give away the eBook versions of The Avram Davidson Treasury (one of the greatest collections of the 20th century), Skinny and The Boss In the Wall.For free offers, to quote the late Dick Proenneke, you can't beat that. Emphases mine.
I am doing everything I can to keep Avram's legacy alive. I am now turning to you to make sure one of the greatest short story writers of the twentieth century is not forgotten. Please share this note with your friends, family, network, colleagues, students and ask them to do the same...Share, post, call, tweet, email, share in a news letter...
Help me keep Avram's legacy alive.
Avram you are missed by so many.
Love your Godson.
Seth
posted by y2karl at 6:13 AM on April 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’m not sure whether this fits in this conversation, but I really dislike hearing “veg” as short for “vegetables” — though probably not as much as my normally peaceful, tolerant spouse hates it when I (playfully?) swing the other way with “veg-it-uh-buls”.
posted by klausman at 2:45 PM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by klausman at 2:45 PM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Using "exasperate" when they mean "exacerbate."
Pushes me right out of my happy descriptivist zone into teeth-grinding prescriptivism.
posted by gingerbeer at 3:47 PM on April 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Pushes me right out of my happy descriptivist zone into teeth-grinding prescriptivism.
posted by gingerbeer at 3:47 PM on April 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
I wish people would stop writing about being ‘wracked’ with pain, or doubt, or whatever. It just ain’t wright.
posted by Phanx at 1:02 AM on April 28, 2023
posted by Phanx at 1:02 AM on April 28, 2023
In Dutch, we have the perfectly cromulent words 'vegetarisch' as well as 'veganistisch'. But nowadays, the stores are suddenly full of 'vegan' products... as well as 'vega' stuff. So now it's become harder to see whether something is fully plant-based or merely meat free.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:56 AM on April 28, 2023
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:56 AM on April 28, 2023
I knew what "begs the question" meant for about maybe 18 months after we learned it in logic class, but because it is almost never used correctly, my understanding quickly deteriorated and died. I still scoff at people using it to mean "demands that the question be asked," but just for the joy of scoffing, not because I know any better than the people I'm scoffing at.
My loss of the name for the logical fallacy and with it loss of confident, nuanced understanding of the fallacy (assumes proven what is not proven...? I think?) is the most unfortunate part of this particular piece of post-college stupidification. It would be useful to be able to spot the fallacy and talk about it sensibly. It's a whole realm of scoffing that I had access to for a short time and am now shut out of. I could google and reschool myself, but you know what? Nobody else is: why should I? I don't want to, and anyway, the term has been zombified: you never hear the logical fallacy usage anymore. "Begs the question" has been completely occupied by its newer, dopier meaning and is shambling around the world eating the brains of vulnerable English speakers the same way it ate mine.
There must be a synonym for the logical fallacy, and if there is not one, one must be created. That name for the fallacy must be used exclusively, and there must be a six- to eight-episode irresistibly addictive eponymous podcast featuring superstars using the term to describe six to eight contemporary scandals. The "incorrect" sense of "begs the question" must become the "correct" one.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:08 AM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
My loss of the name for the logical fallacy and with it loss of confident, nuanced understanding of the fallacy (assumes proven what is not proven...? I think?) is the most unfortunate part of this particular piece of post-college stupidification. It would be useful to be able to spot the fallacy and talk about it sensibly. It's a whole realm of scoffing that I had access to for a short time and am now shut out of. I could google and reschool myself, but you know what? Nobody else is: why should I? I don't want to, and anyway, the term has been zombified: you never hear the logical fallacy usage anymore. "Begs the question" has been completely occupied by its newer, dopier meaning and is shambling around the world eating the brains of vulnerable English speakers the same way it ate mine.
There must be a synonym for the logical fallacy, and if there is not one, one must be created. That name for the fallacy must be used exclusively, and there must be a six- to eight-episode irresistibly addictive eponymous podcast featuring superstars using the term to describe six to eight contemporary scandals. The "incorrect" sense of "begs the question" must become the "correct" one.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:08 AM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hmm, it's business time. I should use a longer word than me to sound smart.
"If you have any feedback, please send it to myself."
Nailed it.
posted by emelenjr at 6:55 AM on April 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
"If you have any feedback, please send it to myself."
Nailed it.
posted by emelenjr at 6:55 AM on April 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
The "incorrect" sense of "begs the question" must become the "correct" one.
It’s irredeemably skunked. Other folks can use it as they please, but I try to follow Liberman’s advice:
It’s irredeemably skunked. Other folks can use it as they please, but I try to follow Liberman’s advice:
Never use the phrase yourself — use "assume the conclusion" or "raise the question", depending on what you mean — and cultivate an attitude of serene detachment in the face of its use by others.posted by zamboni at 7:26 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Never use the phrase yourself ... and cultivate an attitude of serene detachment in the face of its use by others.
Good advice for this thread in general!
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:44 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Good advice for this thread in general!
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:44 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
It’s irredeemably skunked.
Yes, right, exactly, and I said that, but that is not the worst problem. I am trying to RAISE THE QUESTION of that problem, namely that now there is no known widely used name for the original THING, and so the original THING is unknowable (unless one does a teeny tiny bit of work, but obviously that's out, Jesus, who would even suggest it). Another name for the original thing must be dug up or coined and a way of teaching the new name for the original thing that is not work (for the learners, i.e., me) must be found that is so fun that the learners flock to it and do not even realize they're learning, and thus the world will again, painlessly and joyfully, know the thing.
What's the best way of teaching it? Well, I explained that, too: probably a wildly popular podcast. By whom? How should I know? Some superstar host and a host of superstar guests. All I know is, not me. I'm over it. I already took logic and paid for it and did the work to learn the fallacy and it is not my fault that the larger culture has repudiated the name for the fallacy.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:07 AM on April 28, 2023
Yes, right, exactly, and I said that, but that is not the worst problem. I am trying to RAISE THE QUESTION of that problem, namely that now there is no known widely used name for the original THING, and so the original THING is unknowable (unless one does a teeny tiny bit of work, but obviously that's out, Jesus, who would even suggest it). Another name for the original thing must be dug up or coined and a way of teaching the new name for the original thing that is not work (for the learners, i.e., me) must be found that is so fun that the learners flock to it and do not even realize they're learning, and thus the world will again, painlessly and joyfully, know the thing.
What's the best way of teaching it? Well, I explained that, too: probably a wildly popular podcast. By whom? How should I know? Some superstar host and a host of superstar guests. All I know is, not me. I'm over it. I already took logic and paid for it and did the work to learn the fallacy and it is not my fault that the larger culture has repudiated the name for the fallacy.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:07 AM on April 28, 2023
Don Pepino, would you be satisfied with "circular reasoning"? Maybe circular reasoning is a little broader in scope than begging the question, but both describe the same root fallacy, I think?
posted by aws17576 at 10:25 AM on April 28, 2023
posted by aws17576 at 10:25 AM on April 28, 2023
Way late on this but I'm surprised "everyday" hasn't come up! As in, "I drink water everyday." Most people wouldn't write "everyweek," "everymonth" or "everyyear" but "everyday" is everywhere . "Everyday" is an adjective that means "ordinary" -- it doesn't mean "daily."
posted by paperback version at 4:51 PM on April 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by paperback version at 4:51 PM on April 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
(assumes proven what is not proven...? I think?)
I roomed with a philosophy grad student one year, from whom I learned the Latin, which is basically petition the principle. You turn to that thing you are supposed to be proving and use it as a basis of the proof. "Freedom of the press is a good thing because without it, the press would have restrictions."
Circular reasoning is a good description for the actual fallacy. It's not just your argument is based on unproven assumptions, it's that it's based on the thing you are meant to prove.
posted by mark k at 11:39 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I roomed with a philosophy grad student one year, from whom I learned the Latin, which is basically petition the principle. You turn to that thing you are supposed to be proving and use it as a basis of the proof. "Freedom of the press is a good thing because without it, the press would have restrictions."
Circular reasoning is a good description for the actual fallacy. It's not just your argument is based on unproven assumptions, it's that it's based on the thing you are meant to prove.
posted by mark k at 11:39 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
The English language should have a good way to distinguish between people to whom the same or similar pronoun applies. Off the top of my head (not a great example), but if we are talking about Smith and Jones, and he does something to him, then who did what to whom?
posted by NotLost at 7:53 AM on April 29, 2023
posted by NotLost at 7:53 AM on April 29, 2023
Also, "road map", for anything but a literal road map, is a cliche. And "roadmap", all run together, is an abomination.
posted by NotLost at 7:58 AM on April 29, 2023
posted by NotLost at 7:58 AM on April 29, 2023
Also, "road map", for anything but a literal road map, is a cliche. And "roadmap", all run together, is an abomination.
Singular road map, plural roads map.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:38 AM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Singular road map, plural roads map.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:38 AM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah! You should give them such a road smap! 👏
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:27 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:27 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
The English language should have a good way to distinguish between people to whom the same or similar pronoun applies. Off the top of my head (not a great example), but if we are talking about Smith and Jones, and he does something to him, then who did what to whom?
This is what the former/latter construction can be used for: "Smith and Jones walked into a bar. The former ordered a drink; the latter, a teetotaler, disapproved."
Oh, you said a good way? No, English doesn't have that. But thanks to your question I'm imagining a language with a whole series of ordinal pronouns so if you want to unambiguously refer to the seven person mentioned in your story you can do so.
posted by mark k at 4:07 PM on April 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is what the former/latter construction can be used for: "Smith and Jones walked into a bar. The former ordered a drink; the latter, a teetotaler, disapproved."
Oh, you said a good way? No, English doesn't have that. But thanks to your question I'm imagining a language with a whole series of ordinal pronouns so if you want to unambiguously refer to the seven person mentioned in your story you can do so.
posted by mark k at 4:07 PM on April 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Danish uses differing possessive pronouns based on subject/object. So "he took his bag" becomes less ambiguous - it's "hans" bag of it belongs to another "he" but it is "sin" bag if it is his own.
Not quite seven levels of hierarchy, but it does well enough to eliminate what is a frustrating source of ambiguity in English.
posted by Dysk at 4:42 PM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not quite seven levels of hierarchy, but it does well enough to eliminate what is a frustrating source of ambiguity in English.
posted by Dysk at 4:42 PM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
snofoam, there was discussion of these open threads (metatalktails and the free thread) being community driven instead of mod directed, which I think is a good idea. Anyone can make a metatalktails post (just follow the convention of starting the title with "Metatalktail Hour" plus the theme, and tag appropriately, so people can easily find / notice them). Alternatively, one can contact us with the topic, and we'll post for you. (something like, "This week, [member] wonders who has ever done xyz").
posted by taz (staff) at 4:21 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 4:21 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Thanks for the clarification! I guess I didn’t make it far enough into that other thread to see your comment about trying a new system for these.
posted by snofoam at 4:40 AM on April 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snofoam at 4:40 AM on April 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Homophone confusion (e.g. lead/led)
Close but no cigar (e.g. tenet/tenant)
Everything is suddenly a compoundword (hotdog, highschool, bestfriend, etc.)
Absolutely batshit random preposition substitutions (e.g. based off)
Compound noun/pronoun/possessive non-agreement (John and I's car, him and I went, etc.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:33 AM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Close but no cigar (e.g. tenet/tenant)
Everything is suddenly a compoundword (hotdog, highschool, bestfriend, etc.)
Absolutely batshit random preposition substitutions (e.g. based off)
Compound noun/pronoun/possessive non-agreement (John and I's car, him and I went, etc.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:33 AM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
And one of my biggest pet peeves is adults using baby talk when not addressing an actual baby.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:35 AM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:35 AM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
A square peg in a round hole is fine. A round peg in a square home, also fine.
Not fine: "It's kind of like fitting a square into a circle peg."
posted by Dysk at 1:42 AM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not fine: "It's kind of like fitting a square into a circle peg."
posted by Dysk at 1:42 AM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Dysk, I have no words adequate to describe how awful that is.
posted by Night_owl at 5:29 AM on May 2, 2023
posted by Night_owl at 5:29 AM on May 2, 2023
When a "doublecheck" is an initial check.
posted by initapplette at 10:20 AM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by initapplette at 10:20 AM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I could probably keep remembering pet personal peeves forever, but I’ll limit it to one for now.
This is another pronunciation one I noticed in the past year or so. Mayim Bialik, on Jeopardy, will begin a sentence with the word “unfortunately,” but kind of swallows the first syllable or something, so it sounds like she’s saying “Fortunately, that’s not the correct answer,” or “Fortunately we won’t get to the last question,” or something like that. It really bugs me when people who speak professionally do something that off.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 8:07 PM on May 2, 2023
This is another pronunciation one I noticed in the past year or so. Mayim Bialik, on Jeopardy, will begin a sentence with the word “unfortunately,” but kind of swallows the first syllable or something, so it sounds like she’s saying “Fortunately, that’s not the correct answer,” or “Fortunately we won’t get to the last question,” or something like that. It really bugs me when people who speak professionally do something that off.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 8:07 PM on May 2, 2023
Dysk: A round peg in a square home, also fine.
As someone who lives in a square home, I can confirm.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:30 PM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
As someone who lives in a square home, I can confirm.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:30 PM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
In one house I lived in as a kid, my window latch worked by fitting a square peg into a round hole, so I was a little confused the first time I heard the saying.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:48 AM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:48 AM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I realize this battle is already lost, but pronoun use that violates the former standard is always jarring to me. "Me and my girlfriend went to the movies" grates on me as much as "me went to the movies alone" would. Likewise, "hand the papers into Kelly and I" is just as off-kilter as "hand the papers to I." It's weird to me that, in general, people stick to the norms when it's a single subject or object but everything gets moved around when there are two people involved.
Honestly, my list of grammar peeves is long and ever-growing, but this is the second-oldest and most deeply felt one.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:57 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Honestly, my list of grammar peeves is long and ever-growing, but this is the second-oldest and most deeply felt one.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:57 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, "issue" to mean "problem" or "concern."
posted by NotLost at 9:05 PM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by NotLost at 9:05 PM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's weird to me that, in general, people stick to the norms when it's a single subject or object but everything gets moved around when there are two people involved.
I find the "Me and Bob went to the movies" thing odd in a different way. Anecdotally it feels like all children say this naturally and (in households that care about this sort of thing) need to be repeatedly corrected. Eventually it sinks in. But often in the wrong way; when people make the opposite mistake--i.e., "The movie was too scary for Bob and I"--it's usually someone making an effort to sound "formal" or "educated." (It's a frequent mistake among some sports announcers, for example, who are clearly using phrasing that is unnatural for them and wrong because they've are trying to adopt "correct" diction.)
The oddness to adult me is why, if this is a natural way English speaking human brains want to use the pronoun, is it wrong? How can you define a rule that excludes how everyone wants to talk?
I understand that we've defined "me" as the form the first person singular pronoun takes in the accusative case, but why is that the rule? Why doesn't the rule match the way young English speakers naturally speak: "Me is also used in the nominative case when the pronoun applies to one member of a list of subjects." It kind of feels like theoreticians extracted an rule that didn't capture how people actually speak, then noticed the exceptions and told the native speakers they are wrong.
As I type this I'm realizing it's something linguists have certainly answered, so if anyone knows or has a link to an old Language Log post or something I'd appreciate it!
posted by mark k at 11:26 AM on May 5, 2023
I find the "Me and Bob went to the movies" thing odd in a different way. Anecdotally it feels like all children say this naturally and (in households that care about this sort of thing) need to be repeatedly corrected. Eventually it sinks in. But often in the wrong way; when people make the opposite mistake--i.e., "The movie was too scary for Bob and I"--it's usually someone making an effort to sound "formal" or "educated." (It's a frequent mistake among some sports announcers, for example, who are clearly using phrasing that is unnatural for them and wrong because they've are trying to adopt "correct" diction.)
The oddness to adult me is why, if this is a natural way English speaking human brains want to use the pronoun, is it wrong? How can you define a rule that excludes how everyone wants to talk?
I understand that we've defined "me" as the form the first person singular pronoun takes in the accusative case, but why is that the rule? Why doesn't the rule match the way young English speakers naturally speak: "Me is also used in the nominative case when the pronoun applies to one member of a list of subjects." It kind of feels like theoreticians extracted an rule that didn't capture how people actually speak, then noticed the exceptions and told the native speakers they are wrong.
As I type this I'm realizing it's something linguists have certainly answered, so if anyone knows or has a link to an old Language Log post or something I'd appreciate it!
posted by mark k at 11:26 AM on May 5, 2023
"pronoun use that violates the former standard is always jarring to me"
We are just finishing up the most recent season of Love is Blind, and one construction I've heard a LOT on that show is the collective possessive "[Partner name] and I's [thing that belongs to the couple]." I find it jarring, but also fascinating? It's like they are very syntactically bought into the idea of marriage as a union, two-becoming-one sort of thing, I guess.
posted by solotoro at 12:04 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
We are just finishing up the most recent season of Love is Blind, and one construction I've heard a LOT on that show is the collective possessive "[Partner name] and I's [thing that belongs to the couple]." I find it jarring, but also fascinating? It's like they are very syntactically bought into the idea of marriage as a union, two-becoming-one sort of thing, I guess.
posted by solotoro at 12:04 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
"I's" is particularly cringe-inducing to my ears because it makes me think of the "Negro Dialect" White writers used to use for Black characters in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. It's like something you'd expect to hear from Uncle Remus.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:07 PM on May 5, 2023
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:07 PM on May 5, 2023
From a recent comment on a YouTube video:
"This definitely crosses the line between malicious behavior into Hyannis criminal activity."
posted by jamjam at 11:37 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
"This definitely crosses the line between malicious behavior into Hyannis criminal activity."
posted by jamjam at 11:37 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I read that they are interchangeable, but the more modern “rack” in place of “wrack” just looks wrong to me.
posted by eviemath at 5:53 AM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 5:53 AM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
More specifically: to me, rack as a verb means putting something away on a rack-like structure, as in, a vertically organized storage structure. I never have cause to describe someone putting away their pain or doubt in a vertically organized storage structure, and this would be a highly inaccurate metaphor for trying hard to recall something but failing. Thus being racked with pain or doubt, or racking one’s brain both look very wrong to me, with wrack being the correct (to me) homophone to use in those situations instead.
It’s ‘wrack and ruin’, not ‘rack and ruin’ nor ‘wreck and ruin’.
posted by eviemath at 6:02 AM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
It’s ‘wrack and ruin’, not ‘rack and ruin’ nor ‘wreck and ruin’.
posted by eviemath at 6:02 AM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
The two language shifts that most annoy me are non-technical uses of “exponential” (for professional reasons), and “learnings” as a noun (the hypocrisy of it galls me).
posted by eviemath at 6:09 AM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 6:09 AM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Especially in the phrase “what are our learnings?”, when the marginally shorter and grammatically more direct - active voice instead of passive voice - “what have we learned?” is fully available.)
posted by eviemath at 6:11 AM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 6:11 AM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
(If one wants to focus on the content rather than the subject who has engaged in the learning process, the word “lessons” is also already available.)
posted by eviemath at 6:14 AM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 6:14 AM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Kinda trivial but it bugs me, how often 'impact' is used as a verb (but I know why they do, it avoids the affect/effect question).
posted by Rash at 7:44 AM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Rash at 7:44 AM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
So we are racked with guilt and not wracked with guilt?? Neither really makes sense I guess. Being racked with guilt, though…. Sounds like being stored on a rack, with guilt. Why is “rack” the right word?
posted by Vatnesine at 8:54 AM on May 6, 2023
posted by Vatnesine at 8:54 AM on May 6, 2023
You'd think havoc would be bad enough, but no, some people want to wreck even that.
Wreak havoc.
posted by Dysk at 11:14 AM on May 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
Wreak havoc.
posted by Dysk at 11:14 AM on May 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am sorry but that train left the station in 1614.
posted by y2karl at 1:39 PM on May 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 1:39 PM on May 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
So we are racked with guilt and not wracked with guilt?? Neither really makes sense I guess. Being racked with guilt, though…. Sounds like being stored on a rack, with guilt. Why is “rack” the right word?
My point exactly! But dictionary.com, as I linked, does claim they are both valid. The article begins with:
Dysk, I would subscribe to your grammar and wordplay newsletter.
posted by eviemath at 2:30 PM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
My point exactly! But dictionary.com, as I linked, does claim they are both valid. The article begins with:
rack vs. wrackMy best guess would be that this particular use of "rack" comes from the torture device of the same name (which had some resemblance to a rack in the sense of "a framework of bars, wires, or pegs on which articles are arranged or deposited", in terms of its shape and how a body to be tortured was affixed to or hung on the device, I gather)? But I suspect that this is a case of the homonym replacing the original word that just happened far enough back in time that "rack" is now considered equally standard. (Is it reasonable to be salty over a grammatical shift that didn't even happen in one's own lifetime? Probably not, but I am.)
The noun rack that we’re discussing here (as opposed to more common meanings, like the kind of rack for holding things) can mean “ruin or destruction.”
This rack is actually a variant of the earlier noun wrack, meaning the same thing. However, this noun sense of rack is rarely used anymore except in the phrase rack and ruin (which uses the redundant combination to emphasize destruction).
As a verb, rack can mean “to torture or torment” or “to strain.”
As a verb, wrack can mean “to wreck or destroy.”
Both racked with and wracked with are used to mean something like “strained or burdened with,” as in racked/wracked with debt and racked/wracked with grief.
Due to all of the intermingling senses involving pain and destruction, it’s easy to see why rack and wrack are sometimes confused. And, in fact, they are often used interchangeably in a few common phrases.
Dysk, I would subscribe to your grammar and wordplay newsletter.
posted by eviemath at 2:30 PM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
It’s “rack and ruin” not “wrack and ruin”???? This has been a very unsettling meta talk thread for me.
posted by Vatnesine at 4:44 PM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Vatnesine at 4:44 PM on May 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
No, it’s not! (According to me, at least. According to dictionary.com, both are acceptable: “rack and ruin” as well as “wrack and ruin”. Click the link and read the whole article for full details.)
posted by eviemath at 7:33 PM on May 6, 2023
posted by eviemath at 7:33 PM on May 6, 2023
A weird one I've now seen a couple times: "The seventies technically started in 1971 . . . " (applied to whatever decade you care about.) It's signaling that you enjoy a bit of pedantry but didn't actually understand the reason the new millennium technically started in 2001.
posted by mark k at 11:07 PM on May 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mark k at 11:07 PM on May 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh goodness, that's horrifying, mark k.
I'm fine with incorrectness, I'm fine with pedantry, but incorrect pedantry is deeply annoying.
posted by Kattullus at 1:48 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm fine with incorrectness, I'm fine with pedantry, but incorrect pedantry is deeply annoying.
posted by Kattullus at 1:48 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
A weird one.
The word "forte" has entered English twice. Once from Italian as musical notation and once from French as a fencing term to mean the strongest point of a fencing sword (foil/epee/sabre). If something isn't your strength, really you should express that using the French pronunciation and not the Italian however that would be so rare as to be kind of wrong since most people would not understand what you were trying to say.
I think I would be genuinely shocked to hear a non-fencing person pronounce it "correctly" and yet it irritates me just slightly whenever I hear the conventional form as well.
posted by atrazine at 4:52 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
The word "forte" has entered English twice. Once from Italian as musical notation and once from French as a fencing term to mean the strongest point of a fencing sword (foil/epee/sabre). If something isn't your strength, really you should express that using the French pronunciation and not the Italian however that would be so rare as to be kind of wrong since most people would not understand what you were trying to say.
I think I would be genuinely shocked to hear a non-fencing person pronounce it "correctly" and yet it irritates me just slightly whenever I hear the conventional form as well.
posted by atrazine at 4:52 AM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Glam," and worse yet, "glammy."
There is no glamour in them.
posted by jgirl at 9:14 AM on May 9, 2023
There is no glamour in them.
posted by jgirl at 9:14 AM on May 9, 2023
I am of no fixed opinion on this but I find the use of 'rocks' as in 'x' rocks the whatever extremely annoying all too often.
posted by y2karl at 10:21 AM on May 9, 2023
posted by y2karl at 10:21 AM on May 9, 2023
For reasons I cannot imagine, some weird interpretation of what “per capita” means seems to be taking root. I first mentioned it on the blue a year or so back, and it’s cropped up more frequently since then. Today I read a newspaper graph showing that such-and-such a city had “18.4 murders per capita” last year, which seems like it really should have been the headline, if true.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:56 AM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:56 AM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
Speaking of trendy words, I wish we could move past "drop" as a synonym for "release."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:16 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:16 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Speaking of trendy words, I wish we could move past "drop" as a synonym for "release."
I don’t think it’s terrible in and of itself, but often it relies on people thinking about what they are trying to communicate, which it seems rarely happens. I saw a headline on the AV Club announcing some streaming service was dropping the third (or whatever number) season of a show. Did that mean they were about to release it or they were cancelling it? [Shrug emoji]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:23 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don’t think it’s terrible in and of itself, but often it relies on people thinking about what they are trying to communicate, which it seems rarely happens. I saw a headline on the AV Club announcing some streaming service was dropping the third (or whatever number) season of a show. Did that mean they were about to release it or they were cancelling it? [Shrug emoji]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:23 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
A different dictionary gives a more nuanced discussion of “wrack” versus “rack,” and leaves me with the impression that “wrack” is simply being replaced by its more common homonym.
Their examples are very different from my own interpretations of the phrases associated with “wrack.” “Nerve-racking” doesn’t parse to me as torture. It sounds like “spice racking,” which is something I might do in my kitchen after preparing an especially aromatic meal, as part of the tidying up. The “rack” isn’t a torture device unless I work at it; a “rack” is an orderly home for useful objects.
“Nerve-wracking,” on the other hand, calls to mind an onslaught of abuse from all directions, buffeting the nerves so that one will definitely need time to recover when the abuse has ended. The relationship between “wrack” and “shipwreck” feels apt here. A ship might survive a tempest but still be nearly destroyed, needing urgently to make landfall to repair sails or to cut down a tree for a new mast or to replenish fresh water for drinking.
Likewise, to “wrack one’s brain” means (to me) to try to come up with some nugget of information by probing all of the different corners of one’s mind that one can locate. The thing in common with “nerve-wracking” is the sense of an omnidirectional onslaught. When I think of “wracking my brain,” I don’t think of torture or damage. If I were thinking of torture, it wouldn’t be torture on the rack, which (as a one-dimensional machine) is a very inefficient way to search for things. If you want to expand something to search for hidden details, it’s more reasonable to search in two dimensions — but “I’ve drawn and quartered my brain” is a very different expression. To the extent that “wrack” indicates destruction, it indicates (to me) a survivable destruction, where the destroyed remnant is recognizable and perhaps even may still limp along usefully. A salvageable destruction.
I don’t expect I will ever “rack my brain,” which sounds like taking a bunch of useful ideas and storing them neatly, rather than like searching desperately for an idea that I have lost. I’m not sure what I would do if an editor corrected me. I’d probably write a stupid little essay like this one.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 10:15 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Their examples are very different from my own interpretations of the phrases associated with “wrack.” “Nerve-racking” doesn’t parse to me as torture. It sounds like “spice racking,” which is something I might do in my kitchen after preparing an especially aromatic meal, as part of the tidying up. The “rack” isn’t a torture device unless I work at it; a “rack” is an orderly home for useful objects.
“Nerve-wracking,” on the other hand, calls to mind an onslaught of abuse from all directions, buffeting the nerves so that one will definitely need time to recover when the abuse has ended. The relationship between “wrack” and “shipwreck” feels apt here. A ship might survive a tempest but still be nearly destroyed, needing urgently to make landfall to repair sails or to cut down a tree for a new mast or to replenish fresh water for drinking.
Likewise, to “wrack one’s brain” means (to me) to try to come up with some nugget of information by probing all of the different corners of one’s mind that one can locate. The thing in common with “nerve-wracking” is the sense of an omnidirectional onslaught. When I think of “wracking my brain,” I don’t think of torture or damage. If I were thinking of torture, it wouldn’t be torture on the rack, which (as a one-dimensional machine) is a very inefficient way to search for things. If you want to expand something to search for hidden details, it’s more reasonable to search in two dimensions — but “I’ve drawn and quartered my brain” is a very different expression. To the extent that “wrack” indicates destruction, it indicates (to me) a survivable destruction, where the destroyed remnant is recognizable and perhaps even may still limp along usefully. A salvageable destruction.
I don’t expect I will ever “rack my brain,” which sounds like taking a bunch of useful ideas and storing them neatly, rather than like searching desperately for an idea that I have lost. I’m not sure what I would do if an editor corrected me. I’d probably write a stupid little essay like this one.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 10:15 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m not sure how people are coming to the same conclusion as me on rack vs wrack but seem to keep thinking they are contradicting me, or how people read the dictionary.com entry as anything other than saying that wrack was the original usage that is being replaced by its homonym rack. But I am glad there is support for ongoing use of wrack.
posted by eviemath at 5:49 AM on May 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 5:49 AM on May 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
I realise that it's a regional variation,
but I wince at
"my washing machine needs fixed"
instead of
"my washing machine needs fixing"
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 10:27 PM on May 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
but I wince at
"my washing machine needs fixed"
instead of
"my washing machine needs fixing"
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 10:27 PM on May 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I also hate
"mmk?"
as a way of writing "okay?"
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 11:19 PM on May 13, 2023
"mmk?"
as a way of writing "okay?"
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 11:19 PM on May 13, 2023
Would it help if you think of "mmk" as an onomatopoeia?
posted by Night_owl at 4:45 AM on May 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Night_owl at 4:45 AM on May 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by taz (staff) at 2:21 AM on April 22, 2023 [5 favorites]