Probably not worth fighting over January 4, 2009 7:49 AM Subscribe

People from Britain are bad. Or maybe people from America are bad. I can't decide which is worse. Some recent posts about US vs UK have me worried that the moderators will be in the same position as those trying to broker peace between Arabs and Israelis. Wars have already been fought over this.
posted by twoleftfeet to Etiquette/Policy at 7:49 AM (498 comments total) 2 users marked this as a favorite

Wars have already been fought over this.

Yes. And the American colonialists won!
posted by ericb at 7:55 AM on January 4, 2009 [6 favorites]

As an Icelander, my country having been occupied by both nations, I am in a unique position to judge the relative merits of each and I have to say that what I really feel about this is I can't wait to travel in a lead-submersible under the lifeless Atlantic to pick through the radioactive remains of these two globe-spanning empires once the inevitable happens and they empty their nuclear arsenals at each other.
posted by Kattullus at 7:55 AM on January 4, 2009 [7 favorites]

Can we all at least agree about those people from Canada?

posted by Slarty Bartfast at 7:55 AM on January 4, 2009 [3 favorites]

Jingo bells. Jingo bells. Jingo all the way.
posted by netbros at 7:57 AM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

Yeah, historically we don't do "Americans are imperialist self-centered prats / no, Brits are superior judgmental twits / no, Canadians are insecure kneejerk-protest hosers" very well.

But, are you just making a position statement, or what?
posted by pineapple at 7:57 AM on January 4, 2009

Americans are fat.

*not that there's anything wrong with that
posted by found missing at 7:58 AM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I have difficulty understanding this. In the real world, the 'arguments' of UK vs. US tend to be rather light-hearted affairs of poking fun at each other. At least among my friends who are predominantly American and English. Maybe this doesn't carry over to the online world.
posted by slimepuppy at 7:58 AM on January 4, 2009

Slarty: Can we all at least agree about those people from Canada?

Canada gave us poutines. What have either the UK or the US given to the world that equals that gastronomic wonder?
posted by Kattullus at 7:59 AM on January 4, 2009 [9 favorites]

That's funny. I had read the deleted comments in the Doctor Who thread as being entirely in jest. Was I wrong?
posted by TypographicalError at 7:59 AM on January 4, 2009

Pants! Lift! Mad about my flat! Amirite?
posted by fixedgear at 8:02 AM on January 4, 2009

It's a timezone thing, isn't it?

We're all sharing the same resource. If it were a scarce resource - a zero-sum game - then we would have to fight over whatever scraps were left. But of course, these web thingies aren't at all scarce. So we fight over the semantic implications expressed through the thingy.

Personally, I invite the entire country of England over to my house in America for a beer and a laugh.
posted by twoleftfeet at 8:05 AM on January 4, 2009

The Dr. Who post was NOT an anyone is bad situation. It was about being in the US and wanting to watch Dr. Who. Turning it into a "why do you talk about Americans all the time?" thing was really an out of the gate derail and the second time that sort of thing has happened in the past few days.

MeFi is a big site with people from all over the world and it would be nice if threads that had nothing to do with US/UK relations didn't turn into fighty talk about that sort of thing. We work pretty hard to keep the site from not being a US-centric navel gaze (easier now that the elections are over) but at the same time, most of the mods are from the US and the majority of people who come to the site are from the US. If you think that the site moderation is somehow favoring US topics then by all means bring it to our attention but stepping into threads that talk about US or UK or Australian or Canadian topics and saying "this isn't relevant to my interests" is sort of destined to leave people wondering "Who cares?"

So, a primer on when this sort of thing comes up where it would be nice if people would just chill out some.

- football vs. soccer
- "you spelled favorite/favourite wrong"
- the word cunt and whether it's okay to use it on this site
- relative dental care in various countries
- the queen/royals
- socialized health care

Am I missing any? I feel like people here have more similarities than difference most times and it's a little strange to see people all laughing together at esoteric perl jokes and then getting in a dither about pretending to not understand what someone meant when they used the workd jumper.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:07 AM on January 4, 2009 [12 favorites]

I had read the deleted comments in the Doctor Who thread as being entirely in jest.

Wait. This is about a freaking Dr. Who thread? In future, please provide examples when making MeTa posts for those playing along at home.

And count me among those who haven't really noticed an I/P-level of fury in Anglo-American relations here.

Now, Australians...
posted by mediareport at 8:10 AM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Am I missing any?

CCTV / armed police / the whole "police state" scorecard
posted by WPW at 8:12 AM on January 4, 2009

Am I missing any?

The Office vs. The Office
posted by Rock Steady at 8:18 AM on January 4, 2009 [8 favorites]

- the word cunt and whether it's okay to use it on this site

The C-word is less offensive in the UK? I did *not* know that...
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:18 AM on January 4, 2009

This is the internet! EVERYTHING is worth fighting over!

I mean, hell, we've got wars between kittens! KITTENS. Let's not even get into "kitten vs. puppy."
posted by grapefruitmoon at 8:19 AM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Now that I realize that the thread is actually serious, I understand what twoleftfeet means. Isn't this just a sub-argument in the perennial MeFi's US-centric argument. To which my reply is: Yeah, it's US-centric because a majority of the members live in the US. But I started reading/commenting/posting when living in Iceland and I never had any trouble fitting in or felt that people ignored my contributions. Yeah, sometimes people don't get a reference I make which I thought was universal but turns out, say, to be a Nordic only thing. But that sometimes also happens with references that turn out to be a Rhode Island only thing (I live in Providence).

That said, I feel like I'm missing something. Do people really feel ignored or disrespected because of not being American? How?
posted by Kattullus at 8:20 AM on January 4, 2009

As an American, I like seeing stuff about other countries and cultures. 'cept for the Canadians, because you know how they are.

have me worried that the moderators will be in the same position as those trying to broker peace between Arabs and Israelis.

I got no problem with making them leaders in both countries. Who wouldn't prefer that the region get a week off and only allowed back if it can be civil?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:20 AM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

England.
Better bands, better actors, better drama, better comedy.

United States.
Better food. Better special effects. Better writers than Russel T. Davies.

Statements like this really put England in a bad light don't they.
posted by juiceCake at 8:21 AM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Let's not even get into "kitten vs. puppy."

Kittens are harder to catch, but the meat is sweeter.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:22 AM on January 4, 2009 [7 favorites]

People from Britain are bad. Or maybe people from America are bad.

You're close, there. People are bad. My allegiances lie firmly with the penguins.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 8:22 AM on January 4, 2009 [4 favorites]

My allegiances lie firmly with the penguins.

Not me. I can't afford a tuxedo.
posted by jonmc at 8:25 AM on January 4, 2009

Dr. Who has nothing to do with it.

The weird thing for me is that ever since Obama was elected I actually feel some pride in my country (I'm from the U.S., duh!)

After eight years of being hyper-critical of my own country I want to move in a different direction. I want to be proud, somehow.

It does seem a little dangerous. I become impatient or angry with people who tell me otherwise. I fully realize that Metafilter participants can come from any English-language group on the planet. I shouldn't pick just one. The Internet is the new black! All our base are belong to us! We all put our pants on one leg at a time, then stumble over to the computer (stumbling, because we forgot about the other leg).

Myself, aware now of this nationalistic tendency, I can adjust. But I bet you'll see more well-meaning-liberal-quasi-jingoistic nonsense from others soon.

Just a warning...
posted by twoleftfeet at 8:27 AM on January 4, 2009

Ymay ellowfay anadianscay, ememberay hetay lanpay: etlay hetay anksyay and ritsbay estroyday acheay theroay nday ucksay puay otay hetay ictorvay ybay ayingsay eway ereway ootingray orfay hemtay hetay holeway imetay.

I mean, hell, we've got wars between kittens! KITTENS.

Dammit, why'd you link to that? I got shit to do today!

Well, I guess I have time to click a couple more...
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:35 AM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

Aside from "friendly fire" (goddamn I love the military) in Iraq, I don't think the United States and the United Kingdom have been shooting at one another and/or lobbing missiles in the other's general direction for quite some time. I think we're relatively safe.
posted by adipocere at 8:36 AM on January 4, 2009

Am I missing any?

I find it hard to be chilled out while people still think England = UK = Britain and UK = Britain = England. There are more important things to get riled up about, for sure, like the fact that well into the 21st century not everyone has access to a hug, but fuck, I wish people would try to understand the difference.
posted by Beautiful Screaming Lady at 8:41 AM on January 4, 2009 [3 favorites]

I want to be proud, somehow.

Oh. It's all about you. No wonder Americans have a bad name.

We all put our pants on one leg at a time

Skirtist.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:43 AM on January 4, 2009

Wow. For someone rather obsessively reading the DW post, (quite the Anglophilic American, myself), I apparently missed the big UK/US battle entirely.

Did Americans object because there was a British tv show being discussed? Did Britons object that Americans were weighing in on the subject?

I would think our shared love of ole Theta Sigma would unite our countries.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 8:46 AM on January 4, 2009

I find it hard to be chilled out while people still think England = UK = Britain and UK = Britain = England.

Again, the difference is probably not worth fighting over.

But they did. And they do.
posted by twoleftfeet at 8:48 AM on January 4, 2009

It's a really good idea to link to examples of what you're talking about when posting to Metatalk, so those of us who don't live inside your brain can get some context on where you're coming from. I had assumed this was about that stupid Terry Pratchett mess and that this was your failed attempt at an apology or something, but help a brother out here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:49 AM on January 4, 2009 [4 favorites]

I wish people would try to understand the difference.

We try but then you try to explain how they are nations but not countries, or maybe a country that's part of another country... and our heads explode.
posted by smackfu at 8:50 AM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

I wish people would try to understand the difference.

It would probably help if you explained it, as it can be confusing to those from other countries/cultures.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:51 AM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

I find it hard to be chilled out while people still think England = UK = Britain and UK = Britain = England. ... I wish people would try to understand the difference.

Many Americans may not know, but many of us do, and still tend to just shorthand it. Just like we call the Netherlands "Holland", or the former Soviet Union was "Russia". It's not intended to offend or belittle, though I can see why, say, the Welsh, would disapprove.

Hell, you should see how the definition of "The City" (meaning NYC... or Manhattan.... or specific PARTS of Manhattan... etc.), changes depending on where you physically are standing in the NY/NJ region.

Anyway, I usually link people unclear on the UK/England, etc. terminology the following link: which may help.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 8:52 AM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

It's a really good idea to link to examples of what you're talking about when posting to Metatalk, so those of us who don't live inside your brain can get some context on where you're coming from.

Yeah, can anyone clear this up?
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 8:54 AM on January 4, 2009

I want to be proud, somehow.

Oh, please. Pride and MetaTalk don't mix well. And you're the one who started that oh-so-hilarious "friggin' Brits" "I'm just trying to understand the strange and mysterious ways of another culture. I will ridicule it later" bullshit in the Pratchett thread?

Jesus. Turn off the computer. You're doing it wrong.
posted by mediareport at 9:00 AM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

On the UK/England thing, here's a description that has an actual map of the area.

I think Britain (as opposed to Great Britain) and England are interchangeable.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:02 AM on January 4, 2009

Hell, you should see how the definition of "The City" (meaning NYC... or Manhattan.... or specific PARTS of Manhattan... etc.), changes depending on where you physically are standing in the NY/NJ region.

Actually, thats even more confusing in London. There, "The City" is a subset of the City.

Anyways, I'm an American living in London. To be quite honest, I haven't seen any conflict in these threads except the places where twoleftfeet seems to be stirring things up. twoleftfeet himself has recognized and apologized for this.
posted by vacapinta at 9:03 AM on January 4, 2009

Yeah, can anyone clear this up?

Could the alleged difficulties American viewers had in following the Dr. Who program be a contributing factor to the series' percieved lack of popularity in the US of A?

Hurm. Ahem.

Just linkin', is all.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:06 AM on January 4, 2009

Anyways, I'm an American living in London

I envy you GREATLY. It's weird, I have no desire to be a British citizen, but to be an American ex-pat in the UK holds great appeal to me.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 9:07 AM on January 4, 2009

this was your failed attempt at an apology or something, but help a brother out here.

Yeah, cortex, I'm trying to apologize for the Pratchett thing. Also Jessamyn just deleted some comments that I can't point to anymore.

What scares me is that I'm not some kind of "real American". I mean, I grew up all over this planet. I've spent much of my life in countries other than the U.S. If I'm making jingoistic comments about how "I'm proud to be an American" (and honestly, I didn't really make any of these in the blue) then how much longer will it be before other U.S. Metafilter users are doing the same?

Or just write me off as a whacko. Geez... I'd prefer that actually.
posted by twoleftfeet at 9:08 AM on January 4, 2009

Can we change this MeTa to a call-out chiding vacapinta for stepping on my oblique references?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:08 AM on January 4, 2009

Yeah, you're a whacko. Please stay out of future UK-related threads.
posted by mediareport at 9:09 AM on January 4, 2009 [3 favorites]

then how much longer will it be before other U.S. Metafilter users are doing the same

It may be hard to swallow, we stopped copying everything you do back in '02, when you started missing stripes with plaid.

Side question: Did any other American kids, when learning geography, automatically assume South Korea, South Vietnam, South Dakota were bad because of the North/South divide?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:16 AM on January 4, 2009

future UK-related threads

Sure. But... which ones are they?
posted by twoleftfeet at 9:17 AM on January 4, 2009

Nationalism is a bourgeois construct aimed at dividing the global working class. But then again, foreigners are funny. Perhaps that's the dialectic I hear so much about?
posted by Abiezer at 9:18 AM on January 4, 2009 [7 favorites]

What scares me is that I'm not some kind of "real American".

I actually think you're wrong here. People are much more jingoistic when they feel the need to defend their country, which comes up a lot more often when they are abroad then when they are home. It can be amazing how quickly a conversation can turn too, from agreement to defensiveness.
posted by smackfu at 9:21 AM on January 4, 2009

What scares me is that I'm not some kind of "real American".

Putting this as gently as I can: I don't think the problem has anything to do with whether or not you're "some kind of 'real American'" so much as it does with whether or not you're making an effort not to be a jerk just to stir shit up. You seem to be starting shit lately just for the fun of it, and that sucks and the obliqueness of this seems more like a continuation of that than an attempt to make up for it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:21 AM on January 4, 2009 [7 favorites]

(Or, to put it another way, you're an American in England, but you're just you when you're home.)
posted by smackfu at 9:22 AM on January 4, 2009

If I'm making jingoistic comments about how "I'm proud to be an American" [. . .] then how much longer will it be before other U.S. Metafilter users are doing the same?

Immediately, since you make it look so very reasonable and non-onanistic.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:23 AM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

What scares me is that I'm not some kind of "real American". I mean, I grew up all over this planet. I've spent much of my life in countries other than the U.S. If I'm making jingoistic comments about how "I'm proud to be an American" (and honestly, I didn't really make any of these in the blue) then how much longer will it be before other U.S. Metafilter users are doing the same?

Boy, your opinion of Americans doesn't seem to be much higher than your opinion of Britons. What are you even getting at here? That we need to partition MetaFilter by country, because for the next four years the majority of Americans are going to turn into pricks about any issue that touches on another country? So far, the problem seems to be mostly with you, so don't try to generalize it into something even "real Americans" will be doing any minute now. You've made your "apology," so maybe just leave this thread alone and stick to threads about baseball and the Electoral College.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:23 AM on January 4, 2009

twoleftfeet, if you want to apologize for something, you'd probably be best off just saying "I'm sorry that (whatever you did.) I didn't intend to be (rude/jionistic/whatever.)" And then end it there. Adding extra comments to say, 'I'm sorry, BUT I ALSO WANT TO SAY...' just make the whole process messier.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 9:24 AM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

future UK-related threads

Sure. But... which ones are they?

The ones where you feel the need to start a comment with "As an American..."
posted by lucia__is__dada at 9:26 AM on January 4, 2009 [6 favorites]

You seem to be starting shit lately just for the fun of it

Doesn't seem like fun.

Sometimes unpopular statements are made because they are true. I think of Galileo or Darwin or Homer Simpson.

Other times unpopular statements are made because the speaker is a rabid masochistic sociopath who has nothing better to do than to express intellectually unfounded assertions - absolutely devoid of consideration of fact, probability or possibility - for the sheer enjoyment of watching others ridicule him for it.

I think all of you, with great deliberation and sensitivity, have lumped me into the latter category.

I bow out.

Once again I do apologize. Be well.
posted by twoleftfeet at 9:41 AM on January 4, 2009

Congratulations on the vs tag. That will come in handy.
posted by found missing at 9:42 AM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

On the UK/England thing, here's a description that has an actual map of the area.

This map is slightly clearer...
posted by dng at 9:44 AM on January 4, 2009 [5 favorites]

Doesn't seem like fun.

For lack of restraint, then? For lack of something else to do with your time? I'm not accusing you of being a heartless troll, here, but there's a pattern of behavior developing and at this point it's very hard to interpret any new salvos as being accidental—you're responsible for your own behavior, and this is something you've been kind of running with lately, and that's on you to deal with. Just please lay off the weird topical antagonism, okay?
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:46 AM on January 4, 2009

look, everyone! a bunch of yanks and brits each trying to be german...
posted by krautland at 10:18 AM on January 4, 2009

For the most part, this argument is ridiculous, since it's basically twoleftfeet against the world. However, I feel that it's important to acknowledge that Americans got the short end of the stick as far as accents are concerned. I loves me a British accent. Actually, I loves me an accent from anywhere in the British isles. Rowr.
posted by Caduceus at 10:20 AM on January 4, 2009

Was the "rowr" too much? I never know.
posted by Caduceus at 10:25 AM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

The tragedy of trolls is that they all think they are Swift, but none are.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:26 AM on January 4, 2009 [6 favorites]

I'm dubious that many trolls even know who Swift is.
posted by Caduceus at 10:29 AM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

Well, The Wire apparently wasn't as popular as it could have been because it was hard to follow (it wasn't, but anyway). No idea if it made it over to the U.K. though. Did it?

That's funny. I had read the deleted comments in the Doctor Who thread as being entirely in jest. Was I wrong?

Whoah whoah whoah. You were reading deleted comments??! Where? How?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:33 AM on January 4, 2009

I feel that it's important to acknowledge that Americans got the short end of the stick as far as accents are concerned.

Ain't that the truth. And yet, if I hear one more foreigner tell me that my people talk like we've got hot potatoes in our mouths, I'm going to start getting out some actual hot potatoes and sharing the love.

WE MOVED ACROSS THE OCEAN FOR RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS AND ALL WE GOT WERE THESE STOOPID ACCENTS.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 10:35 AM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

The Office vs. The Office

Everyone knows The Office is better.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 11:05 AM on January 4, 2009

Hell, you should see how the definition of "The City" (meaning NYC... or Manhattan.... or specific PARTS of Manhattan... etc.), changes depending on where you physically are standing in the NY/NJ region.

I can say "the city" in a casual conversation in Philadelphia and some fools will still decide I must be referring to NYC.
posted by ludwig_van at 11:12 AM on January 4, 2009

Everyone knows The Office is better.

Your opinion disgusts and offends me, you gormless plonker/dumbass sumbitch.
posted by Rock Steady at 11:13 AM on January 4, 2009 [5 favorites]

Am I missing any?

Adding to jessamyn's list, I'd say nothing good has ever come from arguments over "American" vs. "USAian" / "USian."
posted by donpedro at 11:14 AM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

What the hell is this post about?
posted by iamkimiam at 11:16 AM on January 4, 2009

Semantics.
posted by halcyon_daze at 11:21 AM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

*hi-fives grapefruitmoon*
posted by Caduceus at 11:22 AM on January 4, 2009

nothing good has ever come from arguments over "American" vs. "USAian" / "USian."

Oi. "USian" and its variants drives me bats. America is IN THE NAME of the country. Until we have "The Canadian States of America" or the "Mexican States of America" or the "Brazilian States of America" there is no confusion or disrespect by referring to residents of the USA as "Americans." We named our country after the continent. Sorry guys, we had very little imagination. It's the way it goes.

It confuses *me* to see "USian" because on first glance, I read it as "Asian."
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:22 AM on January 4, 2009 [3 favorites]

If there's anything that can bring the US and the UK together it's our mutual hatred of the French.
posted by Johnny Porno at 11:25 AM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

My answer to this is the same as my answer to everything: invade New Zealand.
posted by not_on_display at 11:28 AM on January 4, 2009

- football vs. soccer
Don't forget
Eisbär/ijsbeer/ice bear vs polar bear

That's a very contentious issue too.
Though I'm still working to get anybody else riled up about that.
posted by jouke at 11:29 AM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

Mind the gap.
posted by miss lynnster at 11:40 AM on January 4, 2009 [3 favorites]

And how about Vegemite v. Marmite?

Seriously, this makes no sense to me. On the world stage, the UK and the US are the self-obsessed cool kids who think the whole school loves them, but everyone's snickering behind their backs. We ought to embrace our obsolescence; compare 8 track collections, trade Ocean Pacific gear (especially those "Surf Naked" tees), talk about where we bought our docksiders while listening to Billy Squire.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:40 AM on January 4, 2009

This thread is useless without chuckdarwin.
posted by essexjan at 11:50 AM on January 4, 2009 [3 favorites]

People from Vermont are nice. Except those Montpelier fuckers.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:57 AM on January 4, 2009

What? What? I have never received any sort of treatment other than festoons of kindness from our transatlantic cousins.

Side question: Did any other American kids, when learning geography, automatically assume South Korea, South Vietnam, South Dakota were bad because of the North/South divide?
No. However South Carolina IS bad. I just feel it in my bones. They do have rather fetching license plates though.

If I'm making jingoistic comments about how "I'm proud to be an American" (and honestly, I didn't really make any of these in the blue) then how much longer will it be before other U.S. Metafilter users are doing the same?
What? What? Unless I wake up one morning to find myself the star of a Ford Truck commercial, I cannot imagine those words coming out of my pie hole.

I wish I could stay and participate in this fascinating look inside twoleftfeet's so-called brain, however I must just pull my wellies on, load up my MP3player with my Ruth Rendell book and take the English Bulldog for walkies. Ta Ta for now.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:05 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

>>Wars have already been fought over this.

>Yes. And the American colonialists won!

Only the first one.
posted by timeistight at 12:23 PM on January 4, 2009

Side question: Did any other American kids, when learning geography, automatically assume South Korea, South Vietnam, South Dakota were bad because of the North/South divide?

My deraily side answer: As a (n American) Southerner, no, I didn't feel "south objects" were automatically bad. But I did understand that I was supposed to feel ashamed of things that were associated with The South. Two closely inter-related, slightly conflicting ideas that, I think, go to the heart of Southern frustration.

Anyways, I did feel that the North Whoevers probably felt superior to the South Whoevers and was amused to learn that the Northern German accent was the softer one of the country.
posted by cheap paper at 12:30 PM on January 4, 2009

>>>Wars have already been fought over this.

>>Yes. And the American colonialists won!

>Only the first one.

We won both of them, against the British at least, even if the second one was problematic and the Canadians kicked our ass. I'm more ashamed that we only won the first one with the help of the mutually hated French.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 12:33 PM on January 4, 2009

This is America dude, learn the rules.
posted by Sailormom at 12:42 PM on January 4, 2009

Actually, I loves me an accent from anywhere in the British isles. Rowr.

You, sir, have clearly never spent much time in the West Midlands.

_{Actually, an Avengers comics I once read had somebody asking the Avengers' butler where his cut-glass English accent had come from since he grew up in the Bronx. The explanation given was that his parents were British and he had the accent of their hometown: Walsall.

I laughed myself sick.}
posted by the latin mouse at 1:00 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

You started that war to annex the British Colonies of Upper and Lower Canada. You failed to annex them: q.e.d., you lost.
posted by timeistight at 1:02 PM on January 4, 2009

I wish there were Spaniards, Frenchmen and Germans on this forum so I could bicker with them fruitlessly about how they tried to occupy the Netherlands in the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th century. A history of hostilities is a joy forever.
posted by jouke at 1:12 PM on January 4, 2009

I'm more ashamed that we only won the first one with the help of the mutually hated French.

Yeah, we sure showed them, with their universal health care, no need to own a car, metric system, liberal attitude towards sex and gun control. Oh wait, the French have that too.

So, uh, what did we win?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:13 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

Heh. I'm just going to leave this here.
posted by stinkycheese at 1:50 PM on January 4, 2009

I am posting in a silly thread!
posted by Iron Rat at 2:14 PM on January 4, 2009

So, uh, what did we win?

Wayne Gretzky, and no Steven Harper.
posted by vapidave at 2:20 PM on January 4, 2009

Well, The Wire apparently wasn't as popular as it could have been because it was hard to follow (it wasn't, but anyway). No idea if it made it over to the U.K. though. Did it?

Oh yeah. Wire is probably more lauded over here than in the US.

What the hell is this post about?
Twoleftfeet got a mauling after sauntering into a thread about British knighthoods and getting troll-tastic with supposed incomprehension of the whole system. This narked him, so he had another pop in the Doctor Who thread.

Now he's here, purportedly to apologise, but actually is continuing to troll in an under-the-radar way (when he says that the distinction between England/Scotland/Ireland is probably not worth fighting over, he also knows full well that it matters a lot in Britain, and that we've had more than one war about it).

He's a bad-faith poster and troll who, whenever he's called on his shit, objects in a hurt tone that he's not being treated in good faith.
posted by bonaldi at 2:27 PM on January 4, 2009 [9 favorites]

People from Vermont are nice. Except those Montpelier fuckers.

BORN IN BRATTLEBORO, REPRESENTIN'!

I've used a lot of caps in this thread. And yet, I don't really feel all that strongly about anything that I'm saying, though I feel the need to say it "loudly."
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:27 PM on January 4, 2009

As an American in Canada, I was surprised to learn how big the War of 1812 is here. Of course, my main knowledge of that war came from having to learn the Battle of New Orleans in elementary school music class).
posted by Staggering Jack at 2:46 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Congratulations on the vs tag. That will come in handy.

That's a way of writing "US" in Dutch. twoleftfeet was clearly just being considerate to the people of Holland, by which name many Dutch, too, refer to the Netherlands. Although technically incorrect, it is commonly accepted shorthand and if you make a big fuss about in Holland, it you may be perceived as a provincial or a pedant. (And to the inevitable naysayers: when you sing "Hup Holland Hup", are you really egging on only part of the country?)

If I were to get riled about anything, it would be the useless article and plural in "the Netherlands". We call it "Nederland" (when we're not saying "Holland"), why not "Netherland" in English? It always vaguely sounds to me like colonial-era English tried to make us sound like some haphazard array of backwaters. I call for a revolution. I mean, the people of Ukraine have done a good job of twoleftfeet">shedding the article. Plus, it worked for the colonies.

Now that I think about it, it is an equally nice gesture of twoleftfeet to the people of Flanders, which is part of Belgium (and different from their cousins in the north, if you confuse these two you will be summarily shot), where they also speak Dutch, which in English is often referred to as Flemish, but only old Belgians and stupid Dutch still do so in Dutch.

It's really quite simple, I don't understand how you could have missed that.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 2:54 PM on January 4, 2009 [4 favorites]

Well, The Wire apparently wasn't as popular as it could have been because it was hard to follow (it wasn't, but anyway).

I don't know, I think I have a decent grasp of the English language (not a native speaker although half my family is British), but I definitely enjoyed it immensely more with subtitles.

No idea if it made it over to the U.K. though. Did it?

Yes, on FX (SPOILERS).
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:00 PM on January 4, 2009

deborking HTML: "I mean, the people of Ukraine have done a good job of shedding the article."

Also, Paraguay > Papua New Guinea, amirite?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:02 PM on January 4, 2009

The C-word is less offensive in the UK? I did *not* know that...

Not by a hell of a lot though, the main difference is that it appears to have far more of a sexist undertone in the US. People who use that argument are often a wee bit disengenuos.

"Twat" on the over hand is roughly synonymous with "silly fool" in the UK. Though on the occasioans you'll see Americans opting to take offense at it's use it's been 100% manfactured, bullshit outrage.

(also we pronounce it properly)
posted by Artw at 3:06 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Now that I think about it, it is an equally nice gesture of twoleftfeet to the people of Flanders, which is part of Belgium (and different from their cousins in the north, if you confuse these two you will be summarily shot), where they also speak Dutch, which in English is often referred to as Flemish, but only old Belgians and stupid Dutch still do so in Dutch.

But in the end we settled on three choices: number three ... the Sprouts; number two..... the Phlegms; but the winner was undoubtedly from Mrs. No-Supper-For-You from Norwood in Lancashire ... Miserable Fat Belgian Bastards!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:07 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

Though on the occasioans you'll see Americans opting to take offense at it's use it's been 100% manfactured, bullshit outrage.

No. This is the thing, both words are pretty annoying and offensive to an average person in the US in that sort of "you wouldn't say it at school/work/church" sort of way and additionally in that "particularly annoying to women because the standard usage of either term in the US is frequently associated with sexual violence" way. I get that this isn't the way people use the terms in the UK and we try to be pretty decent about being like "okay, you didn't know it was really offensive, honest mistake" and moving on with our lives.

But, as special secretary in charge of keeping women from fleeing the site in droves because some people can't be bothered to behave as if they're aware that other people exist and have feelings, we'd also like people to Make an Effort, which is why I mentioned it. Say it once in a while because it's an accident and/or apropos, okay. Say it often to get a rise out of people and then claim "oh hey I'm from the UK/Australia, don't oppress me with your US Puritanism!" that isn't going to fly.

Someone emailed me last week asking what out policy was about "The C Word" and I basically spelled it out something like that.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:21 PM on January 4, 2009 [8 favorites]

I was referring to twat.
posted by Artw at 3:24 PM on January 4, 2009

I was referring to both.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:28 PM on January 4, 2009

I was referring to t...
I've asked you not to talk about me behind my back before, Artw.
posted by Abiezer at 3:36 PM on January 4, 2009

Well I guess it's going to get nasty should anyone actually call me out, bercause no one is changing my mind on how I use it.
posted by Artw at 3:37 PM on January 4, 2009

Eh? I was joking! Hope that was obvious!
posted by Abiezer at 3:43 PM on January 4, 2009

Not by a hell of a lot though

In 2004, when Johnny Rotten called the audience 'a bunch of fucking cunts' on I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here, one of the most popular shows on ITV, there were a total of just 98 complaints.

Twenty years earlier, when Steve Jones called Bill Grundy a 'fucking rotter' on the Today Programme, it produced a tabloid frenzy, questions in the House of Commons and the Sex Pistols were hunted like dogs and were almost totally unable to perform in the UK thereafter.

Given that calling someone a cunt on British TV seems to cause less offence than simply flashing a nipple on US TV, I'd say that was an indicator that people were *far* less offended by its use in the UK than they are in the USA.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:48 PM on January 4, 2009

I think the whole concept here is that it makes sense, in the context of a community that goes beyond just yourself, to show some awareness of how the other people around you feel about personal language choice x and consider accounting for that even if how you personally feel about remains essentially unchanged.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:49 PM on January 4, 2009 [3 favorites]

Well I guess it's going to get nasty should anyone actually call me out, bercause no one is changing my mind on how I use it.

Try it out for effect by calling one of your female (American) bosses a twat and the other a silly git. Use it as you normally would, only direct it at her. It's not manufactured.

Please never call me a cunt or a twat. Can I at least ask you that courtesy? If I'm being an ass, you can call me that.
posted by Stewriffic at 3:52 PM on January 4, 2009

(waiting...)
posted by Stewriffic at 3:52 PM on January 4, 2009

Sorry, pretty strong feelings on this. I'm not going to stuntily start usiong it every other sentence or anything but I talk the way I talk, and will continue to talk the way I talk, and if it really comes to the point where someones asking me to lesave the site because of it than that's just the way it is.
posted by Artw at 3:52 PM on January 4, 2009

I understand strong feelings. I've got them on this topic as well. (Surprise!).

Now why aren't you calling me an ass? I gave you full license! :-)
posted by Stewriffic at 3:54 PM on January 4, 2009

Well, if we want to get all identity politics on this then no, you cannot understand my feelings on this.
posted by Artw at 3:56 PM on January 4, 2009

Please leave the site.
posted by found missing at 3:59 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

"Oi, twat features, get a brew going" was essentially a term of endearment from the older blokes when addressing me the apprentice and I have used the word here in anger and worse without thinking on, but I'm not going to die in a ditch for the right to type it if it's offending people needlessly. You participate in online forums to engage with others in the community and adjust your mode accordingly.
posted by Abiezer at 4:04 PM on January 4, 2009

But you don't talk the way you talk because you were hatched, fully formed, from an egg containing Artw-Who-Talks-The-Way-He-Talks. You talk the way you talk at this point because that's how you talk at this point, and that's something that had to have evolved over time and will, barring some sort of terrible mental impairment, continue evolving until the day you die.

You also—again, barring some sort of genuinely unusual neural gear or profoundly unusual socialization—engage in some degree of code switching depending on the context you find yourself in and what you're trying to accomplish with your speech/writing, so the idea that there is in fact even some single Way That You Talk even at this specific moment in time is on questionable footing.

Which is wandering far from where this started, but there's a big gap between "please take into account how other people feel about x" and "submit to language dictum x or die", and I think we're trying to argue for the former and you're framing it as the latter.

I don't want anybody to feel like they have to leave over a disagreement about usage, at all. I'm someone who actually feels pretty strongly about my own language choices and about the importance of standing up for strong or ugly language as an important expressive tool, I think I probably agree with you about a lot of this stuff. And I appreciate you noting you aren't planning to go stunting about with the word on purpose (and I can't speak for Jess but you aren't one of the folks who came to mind for me when she mentioned stuntiness).

But, again, the difference between "think about the context and make a choice" and "OMG BAD WORD EVIL MAN GET OUT" is pretty stark; we're not saying the latter; and the former is actually a pretty important part of getting along in a large heterogeneous community like this.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:06 PM on January 4, 2009 [5 favorites]

We can discuss it, but it's not changing. So if it causes a problem then, well, consequences of said problem will have to fall on me. But it is not changing.
posted by Artw at 4:09 PM on January 4, 2009

Okay but then you're a dick
posted by found missing at 4:10 PM on January 4, 2009

Hey Artw, let me try to put this in another way. Say I'm your friend. Say that you have a tendency to use the word 'fattie' casually. But it hurts my feelings, even though I know that you don't mean that I am fat, perhaps I just hate the word because it has other connotations or I am fat or my culture thinks that is like the worst insult possible, worst than shoes or something.

Okay, say you like to say 'fattie' with no intention of hurting my feelings - BUT IT DOES HURT MY FEELINGS. So I say, "Hey Artw, would you mind not using that word? It really hurts my feelings and makes me feel bad. And also, when you say it, it makes me not to want to be your friend. But I want to be your friend, so what do you say?"

At this point, it would be great if you said, "Huh, I didn't really know it would hurt your feelings that badly. And I do want to be your friend...so yeah, I will try and pay attention to when I use it BECAUSE I VALUE OUR RELATIONSHIP." How about that?
posted by typewriter at 4:10 PM on January 4, 2009 [3 favorites]

This seems like a pretty silly thing to take a "principled stand" on -- cortex is right on with his comments.
posted by proj at 4:12 PM on January 4, 2009

Now why aren't you calling me an ass? I gave you full license! :-)

You mean "arse," right?
posted by miss lynnster at 4:13 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

I talk the way I talk

Given that your profile says you're currently in the US. I can't help wondering if your stance on this issue is influenced by Smackfu's Law.
posted by the latin mouse at 4:17 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Uh, found missing, you're being overly hostile. There's no need to tell Artw to "leave the site" or telling him that he's "a dick."

He's been civil in this thread and you're needlessly riling him.
posted by Kattullus at 4:18 PM on January 4, 2009

Okay but then you're a dick

Well I'm sorry if you think I should bow to opinion on using American language standards here, and that not doing so would make me a dick, but since I'm not I might as well not lie about it. AFAIK I've not offended anyone that way thusfar (except a spot of meta-outrage at the fact that I happen to feel this way from Klang a bit ago, and he admits that was bullshit now) and If I do happen to offend anyone that way then I'll be happy to talk about it, but pre-emptive self censorship on this is not going to happen and I'm not going to pretend it will.

TBH looking at the various I/P threads this site has far, far worse problems than me not caring for that line of thinking or saying "twat" once in a blue moon.
posted by Artw at 4:19 PM on January 4, 2009

Sorry, I disagree.
posted by found missing at 4:19 PM on January 4, 2009

...with Kattullus.
posted by found missing at 4:20 PM on January 4, 2009

Well, on the one hand, I can see how the code-switching thing is an issue here, because it's kind of saying to Artw, "Dude: Talk American." This isn't really a site that's supposed to have a national identity. On the other hand, I'm having a tough time seeing use of the word "cunt" as a sign of pride in the land of one's birth. That's kinda like me showing pride in my American heritage by drinking PBR, wolfing down some McDonald's, and cranking Foghat, you know?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:21 PM on January 4, 2009

Given that your profile says you're currently in the US. I can't help wondering if your stance on this issue is influenced by Smackfu's Law.

Possibly. Living in a foreign country is interesting and exciting, and engaging in that society as a local would is very much a part of it. but it can be a pain as well, and when you're doing the things you do to relax it' nice to just be yourself.
posted by Artw at 4:21 PM on January 4, 2009

....
posted by jonmc at 4:22 PM on January 4, 2009

I can't figure out what's more depressing: the fact that Stuff White People Like tries so hard and still fails to be funny after the first twenty entries or so, or the fact that many of the comments on their entries demonstrate that their readers fail to realize that the site is trying to be funny.

Er, sorry to interrupt. Proceed with your ridiculous argument.
posted by Caduceus at 4:33 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

That's kinda like me showing pride in my American heritage by drinking PBR, wolfing down some McDonald's, and cranking Foghat

Two points:

1. Drinking PBR and eating McDonalds is awesome, in moderation. Especially if done shirtless on the front porch.
2. Foghat is from England. Acceptable American trash rock bands would be Grand Funk Railroad, Skynyrd or anything involving Ted Nugent.
posted by electroboy at 4:35 PM on January 4, 2009

Foghat > Skynyrd

Fact.

Take that US!
posted by Kattullus at 4:38 PM on January 4, 2009

"(except a spot of meta-outrage at the fact that I happen to feel this way from Klang a bit ago, and he admits that was bullshit now)"

I was all like, don't you get it? I'll make you get it by being, like, really offensive myself, and then that didn't seem to work, so I was left with having been a giant unmitigated dick and having no progress because of it, which made it all kinda bullshit.

But since I haven't noticed you being all twat twat twat twat, and since it was more frustration than outrage, I guess I just don't care that much.
posted by klangklangston at 4:39 PM on January 4, 2009

Nicely done twoleftfeet, you did get the air conditioned helmet? If you send me the dimensions of your handle, I will send you a new head, as your axe must be down to a little shiny nub by now.
posted by dirty lies at 4:40 PM on January 4, 2009

I'm amazed that of all the words in all of the languages the one that someone gets bent about not saying in the future, to the point of extreme defensiveness, is "twat."

Really? TWAT? It's a silly word. Yes, I get that it's in poor taste, but it just sounds... silly. Twat twat twat twat twat. It doesn't even look or sound like a real word if you type it enough. Twat twat twat twat twat twat twat.

For me, if I had to pick a "word" that I'm not giving up - you can have "SRSLY" over my dead body. I can't bring myself to type those particular vowels anymore.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:41 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

I just made a cocktail of milk warmed in the microwave mixed with a few spoonfuls of 'white mocha' mix powder. To which I added three fingers of Jameson and some creme de menthe for color. It nice. It needs a name.
posted by jonmc at 4:44 PM on January 4, 2009

"Foghat > Skynyrd"

Oh, that's bullshit like the highon above claiming that the UK had better bands.

I have been listening to a lot of Slade lately though.
posted by klangklangston at 4:48 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Yes, I get that it's in poor taste, but it just sounds... silly.

Both the level of taste and how the word sounds are both relative, that's rather the issue.

(With an "o" sound? what the fuck?)
posted by Artw at 4:49 PM on January 4, 2009

By the way, I fucking hate anyone who refers to the country between Mexico and Canada as America. America is a continent! Named after an Italian mapmaker! I automatically assume that anyone who calls it America is either completely ignorant or so full of hubris that they think that no other country in the continent matters. I like to go further, and accuse them of being hardcore proponents of the Monroe Doctrine.

Calling it the U.S. or United States is even worse, being born in the United States of Mexico, and knowing people from other united states around the world, it tells me two things, that you believe you are the only united states in the world that matter, and that your country has a lame name.

From now on, I will refer to that country as the Barely Held Together States With an Unoriginal Name Which Lay Just Under Canada. Welcome to BHTSWUNWLJC.

And I don't need no fucking hug, I just need more ice for my caipirinhas, this cachaca is not going to drink itself.
posted by dirty lies at 4:50 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

Also Americasns do not get Slade played to them in shopping centers every Christmas, and so are incapable of understanding that as well.
posted by Artw at 4:50 PM on January 4, 2009

artw: I was once talking music with a couple of British dudes that I met in a bar, and when I mentioned that Slade are considered something of a cognoscenti band here, they were stunned. Lost in translation I guess.
posted by jonmc at 4:53 PM on January 4, 2009

I bet Noddy Holder says twat all the time, and in a Walsall accent.
posted by Abiezer at 4:53 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Foghat is from England. Acceptable American trash rock bands would be Grand Funk Railroad, Skynyrd or anything involving Ted Nugent.

Acceptable to WHOM, my friend. Acceptable to WHOM.

(I have been known to listen to both Foghat and Lynyrd Skynyrd. Is Grand Funk Railroad "We're an American Band"? Yeah, they fuckin' suck. And Ted Nugent's an asshole. But "Stranglehold" completely rules all. That's a conundrum, right there.)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:53 PM on January 4, 2009

Leprechaun Spunk?

Brace yerself, Molly, thar she blows!!
posted by jonmc at 4:57 PM on January 4, 2009

Weird principle to take a stand on, artw. The word IS offensive in the U.S. You are addressing a percentage of people in the U.S. You are legitimately offending them. No manufactured outrage here. And, regardless of how it is seen in the UK (and I lived in the UK, and did not experience it as being a word that is devoid of offensiveness), it nonetheless uses a woman's genitalia as an expression of scorn, and that seems like the sort of thing that a decent person would avoid out of courtesy to the 50 percent of the population that has that genitalia.
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:05 PM on January 4, 2009 [6 favorites]

Not heard this before - Noddy doing an acoustic version of Cum on Feel the Noize. Great voice.
posted by Abiezer at 5:06 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

Note to self: Use the preview button.
posted by Caduceus at 5:08 PM on January 4, 2009

Yeah, I picked up a copy of the B-Sides of Slade earlier this year, then grabbed a copy of the new remaster of Slayed just about a week ago. I was like, finally, since I only had it on murky vinyl and a shitty mp3 rip. Then I listened to it and was, like, Oh, God, it's always that muddy. Thank God I love Slade anyway.
posted by klangklangston at 5:35 PM on January 4, 2009

Although clarity and concision should be prized over cutesiness and obscurantism in starting Metatalk threads, it is often the vaguer ones that turn the most interesting.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:40 PM on January 4, 2009

I actually have tracks from when they were still Ambrose Slade and/or the N'Betweens. They were covering the Beatles and the Amboy Dukes, but even then they still had that pub-singalong meets bubblegum-metal thing happening on just about every track.
posted by jonmc at 5:41 PM on January 4, 2009

stavrosthewonderchicken: it is often the vaguer ones that turn the most interesting.

Yeah I agree. This has been an incredibly weird thread.
posted by Kattullus at 5:47 PM on January 4, 2009

Yeah, they had Ambrose Slade on vinyl at Amoeba, but I passed on it because it looked kinda banged up (especially for $17), and because I didn't want to dick around with something I wasn't gonna love.That's what the internet is for.
posted by klangklangston at 5:48 PM on January 4, 2009

The approach works really well on "Journey To The Center Of The Mind" and "You Better Run," and more weirdly on "Martha My Dear."
posted by jonmc at 5:54 PM on January 4, 2009

I never really dug their covers, frankly, though most of the ones I know are like Let The Good Times Roll. Again, because I know what the songs SHOULD sound like, I feel annoyed.
posted by klangklangston at 5:58 PM on January 4, 2009

Well, like most 'pre-fame nuggets' it's mainly interesting in that 'looking for clues' sense, seeing if you can hear the future sound of the artist congealing. although, the pre-Slade stuff is definitely listenable, IMHO.
posted by jonmc at 6:01 PM on January 4, 2009

I think artws language here on the site has been completely acceptable all the way through his posting history.
posted by Catfry at 6:06 PM on January 4, 2009

, it nonetheless uses a woman's genitalia as an expression of scorn, and that seems like the sort of thing that a decent person would avoid out of courtesy to the 50 percent of the population that has that genitalia.

In fairness, no one seems to get gender-offended about being called a dick.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 6:08 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

In fairness, no one seems to get gender-offended about being called a dick.

And I doubt many caucasian people get het up if called 'Whitey'. Let's not go down this road.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:12 PM on January 4, 2009

And I doubt many caucasian people get het up if called 'Whitey'.

You'd be surprised.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:20 PM on January 4, 2009

Mr. Ford didn't seem to mind.
posted by jonmc at 6:22 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Sly has something to say about that

(Apologies for the stupid montage, as that seems to be the only form it's up in)
posted by klangklangston at 6:42 PM on January 4, 2009

> I find it hard to be chilled out while people still think England = UK = Britain and UK = Britain = England. There are more
> important things to get riled up about, for sure, like the fact that well into the 21st century not everyone has access to
> a hug, but fuck, I wish people would try to understand the difference.

When we've done something good, it's "Another Triumph for Great Britain." When we haven't, it's "England Loses Again."
--Michael Flanders (Brit, fyi)
posted by jfuller at 6:43 PM on January 4, 2009

Am I missing any?

- leave/lesave

Or is it save/lesave? Hmmm.
posted by homunculus at 6:48 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

My POINT, is that no one takes "you dick" as insulting their entire gender. And in the UK, either of the words in question are ALSO not taken as gender-specific. I have a sneaking suspicion that calling someone "whitey" doesn't quite match that criterion.

Ah, I misread that as a 'Guys don't get het up about being called [male reproductive organ] like gals do about being called [female sexual organ] argument, APOLOGIES.

But it did result in some Sly and the Family Stone, so everyone wins in the end!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:55 PM on January 4, 2009

....anyway, getting back to the original topic at hand:

What I've noticed in here is that, ironically, the people who are the most virulently pro-UK/anti-US are the United States expatriates in England. Which does make it remarkably easy for me to metaphorically just pat their little heads and pinch them on their little cheeks and think about them as the lguy who got all excited about their new crush, isn't it cute...which makes it easy for me to kind of dismiss what they say and get on with my day. Whee!

...But in the interest of full disclosure, I was always more of a Hiberniophile than an Anglophile anyway, so that may be skewing my perspective in unforseen ways. Whatevs.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:11 PM on January 4, 2009

What I've noticed in here is that, ironically, the people who are the most virulently pro-UK/anti-US are the United States expatriates in England.

That's funny, because I've noticed the people here who are the most virulently pro-US/anti-forin are the United States citizens that have never left.
posted by bonaldi at 7:17 PM on January 4, 2009

Acceptable to WHOM, my friend. Acceptable to WHOM.

We're drinking PBR and eating chicken nuggets. All of a sudden you have taste?
posted by electroboy at 7:19 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

That's funny, because I haven't made any observations about virulence based on country of residence or country of origin.
posted by found missing at 7:20 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

I wonder how it can be that many people who get riled up about the use of "twat," don't seem to have any trouble with threads that exist for no reason than to ridicule and thus offend Christians (and plenty of other groups, but of course that's a particularly obvious choice).

I get riled up by those threads and could really care less about the word "twat" but feel that someone who holds it so dear as to be angry at the very thought of NOT using the word because it has some seriously negative connotations... it bothers me. In the same way that it bothers me that the hands on "WALK" signs are white and not green which obfuscates the "Green means go! I mean, WHITE means go" conversations I have with five year olds. That is to say that I'm not personally offended just irritated that whims are getting in the way of MAKING SENSE.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 7:23 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

From Urban Dictionary: Cunt. "Derogatory term for a woman. Considered by many to be the most offensive word in the English language."
posted by terranova at 7:24 PM on January 4, 2009

What I've noticed in here is that, ironically, the people who are the most virulently pro-UK/anti-US are the United States expatriates in England.

From personal experience, I care more about my native land when I'm not in it. Or when Obama is up for election.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 7:26 PM on January 4, 2009

My POINT, is that no one takes "you dick" as insulting their entire gender.

Different phrase, different history.

It's not difficult ya'll. Cunt and twat have a particular meaning in Americ, it's an ugly meaning and tends to stir up ugliness when uttered or written, derailing whatever the original discussion was about.

A person can choose to use those words, of course, but it seems silly to piss off people you're trying to communicate with.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:29 PM on January 4, 2009

Considered by many to be the most offensive word in the English language.

In that regard, I'm afraid Bush might now be over cunt.
posted by found missing at 7:30 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

It doesn't even look or sound like a real word if you type it enough. Twat twat twat twat twat twat twat.

Twat twat twat twat twat twat twat.

Hey, you're right.
posted by homunculus at 7:40 PM on January 4, 2009

It seems like the kind of word that should have an apostrophe at the start.
posted by smackfu at 7:47 PM on January 4, 2009

what
posted by desuetude at 8:19 PM on January 4, 2009

the fuck
posted by desuetude at 8:19 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

the point was not about whether a post was us-centric or whatever, the point was the narcissistic american navel gazing.
As far as i am aware - metafilter takes place on something or other called the world wide web in cyberspace, so the place really belongs to those people who were going to get all suited up and have virtual sex with each other in the virtual toilets of the virtual raves that the sunday times informed me about 10 years ago.
posted by sgt.serenity at 8:28 PM on January 4, 2009 [5 favorites]

Metafilter is VR-sex-suit-centric. At least that's what I'm going to start hamfistedly trolling about.
posted by Kwine at 8:45 PM on January 4, 2009

This is a lot like when you're jerking off, but you're distracted by the cat knocking something over or the homeowners come in, and you lose your rhythm and accidentally, instead of a downstroke followed by an upstroke, you do two downstrokes...and there's like this tearing sound and you get visions in your mind of edamame, of lipstick falling out of the tube, of the plastic wrapper coming off a cigar, the world goes bright red, and you suddenly feel very cold.
posted by turgid dahlia at 8:52 PM on January 4, 2009 [5 favorites]

I wonder how it can be that many people who get riled up about the use of "twat," don't seem to have any trouble with threads that exist for no reason than to ridicule and thus offend Christians (and plenty of other groups, but of course that's a particularly obvious choice).

I don't really think people fall into those categories so neatly, but with regards to religion, I personally don't remember any recent FPPs that were posted "for no other reason than to ridicule and thus offend Christians". But religious threads, from what I noticed, seem to bring out the same crowd making the same arguments (myself included), and everyone else more or less shys away from those threads, or maybe post "hey everyone we're never going to settle this argument", and then hit Remove From Activity. I don't know how many Christians are so offended by these discussions that they flag posts or comments, but I haven't noticed many of them get particularly fighty or offended.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:04 PM on January 4, 2009

turgid dahlia: the fact that you would even contemplate doing that in the presence of a clawed animal means that you are far braver/more foolish/hornier than I.

Or has it perhaps been declawed? Come on, you can tell me.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:09 PM on January 4, 2009

I am fucking besides myself that I missed out on a thread about the US vs. the UK especially one that touched on weird points of said cultures like the twat argument and a discussion about Slade. Can we do this again tomorrow?
posted by ob at 9:10 PM on January 4, 2009

I'm sure it'll still be here tomorrow. We've yet to open the coffee v. tea can of worms.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:12 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

"I wonder how it can be that many people who get riled up about the use of "twat," don't seem to have any trouble with threads that exist for no reason than to ridicule and thus offend Christians (and plenty of other groups, but of course that's a particularly obvious choice)."

Christians can stop being Christian if they can't deal with the ridicule/Christians get off on that sort of thing.

(Nice troll, by the way.)
posted by klangklangston at 9:15 PM on January 4, 2009

We've yet to open the coffee v. tea can of worms.

A coffee can would be better for storing worms since it's larger and made of sturdier metal.
posted by jonmc at 9:17 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

"This is a lot like when you're jerking off, but you're distracted by the cat knocking something over or the homeowners come in, and you lose your rhythm and accidentally, instead of a downstroke followed by an upstroke, you do two downstrokes...and there's like this tearing sound and you get visions in your mind of edamame, of lipstick falling out of the tube, of the plastic wrapper coming off a cigar, the world goes bright red, and you suddenly feel very cold."

…that brief, horrible moment before the thought "Might as well keep going" can be articulated.
posted by klangklangston at 9:18 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Oh sure. I wonder which you prefer, Marisa. I mean coffee vs. tea, sure. But coffee vs. tea can of worms? That's a tad unfair.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:19 PM on January 4, 2009

Onward and upward!
posted by klangklangston at 9:19 PM on January 4, 2009

Let me just say that I am useless before I have had my tea can of worms in the morning.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:24 PM on January 4, 2009

I'm a pro-coffee Brit so I don't really have a dog in that particular fight. Slade were great though and if you don't think so you're a twit.
posted by ob at 9:29 PM on January 4, 2009

Let me just say that I am useless before I have had my tea can of worms in the morning.

There is nothing like an iced tea can of worms for annelidic refreshment.
posted by oneirodynia at 9:33 PM on January 4, 2009

Can we have a ruling on 'fanny' please?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:34 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

More on the C-word:

Du[tch] cognate de kont means "a bottom, an arse." Du. also has attractive poetic slang ways of expressing this part, such as liefdesgrot, lit. "cave of love," and vleesroos "rose of flesh."

Somehow I think we're doing this wrong.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:34 PM on January 4, 2009

[link]
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:35 PM on January 4, 2009

Can we have a ruling on 'fanny' please?

Yes, is it more or less offensive than front bottom?
posted by ob at 9:40 PM on January 4, 2009

coffee v. tea

The answer is "yes".
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:41 PM on January 4, 2009

I prefer tea, personally, as it doesn't upset my stomach the way coffee does. I'm really particular when it comes to worms, though, and I just know I'm bound to ruffle some feathers if I start that whole flatworm v. hookworm debate all over again.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:41 PM on January 4, 2009

Can we have a ruling on 'fanny' please?

Lay off the chocolate.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:43 PM on January 4, 2009

"Can we have a ruling on 'fanny' please?"

No, you're thinking of "Sweet Fanny Adams," which is not a Slade album at all (and technically neither a Sweet song nor album, though very close to each).
posted by klangklangston at 10:30 PM on January 4, 2009

My doctor told me to lay off the coffee, but tea is OK.

I love my tea now, with a double shot of espresso.

I am pancultural like that.
posted by dirty lies at 10:41 PM on January 4, 2009

no really, what the fuck are we going on about?
posted by desuetude at 10:42 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

I find it hard to be chilled out while people still think England = UK = Britain and UK = Britain = England.

Call an American Southerner a 'Yank' for maximum transatlantic lulz.

By the way, I fucking hate anyone who refers to the country between Mexico and Canada as America. America is a continent! Named after an Italian mapmaker! I automatically assume that anyone who calls it America is either completely ignorant or so full of hubris that they think that no other country in the continent matters. I like to go further, and accuse them of being hardcore proponents of the Monroe Doctrine.

Ridiculous. I'm not an American, and I certainly use this, it's just standard English. If I'm speaking a language I'm going to use the naming conventions used by its native speakers.
posted by atrazine at 10:43 PM on January 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

no really, what the fuck are we going on about?

Slade, hot caffeinated beverages, the correct use of fanny, and apparently the ease with which a person can troll others by declaring that they hate anyone who refers to the country between Mexico and Canada as America.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:46 PM on January 4, 2009

Mexicans call the United States America, and do many Canadians, I recall. I used to be pissed about this, but if they have capitulated, I'm not going to make a fuss.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:46 PM on January 4, 2009

kont
You have offended me for the last time gnfti!
I demand satisfaction. Laptops at dawn!

I don't think anybody but Gerard Reve and his readers would talk about liefdesgrot. But maybe it's more common in the gay scene. Of course there's nothing specifically Dutch about that kind of simile.
posted by jouke at 10:58 PM on January 4, 2009

Dr. Who is stupid.

There, I said it.

Stupid.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:11 PM on January 4, 2009 [5 favorites]

Dr. Who is stupid.

There, I said it.

Stupid.

Flagged as offensive.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 11:13 PM on January 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Can we have a ruling on 'fanny' please?

Many still consider it Bergman's most haunting, sumptuous film.
posted by terranova at 11:32 PM on January 4, 2009

Dr. Who is stupid.

There, I said it.

Stupid.

I have to admit, up until today I had never actually watched an episode. I'm generally not much for sci fi shows, really. But I saw David Tennant on Graham Norton and he was pretty funny and self-effacing, so when Dr. Who was on BBC today and I saw Catherine Tate and Alex Kingston were cast too (LOVE Catherine Tate!), I decided to go ahead and try watching. And as a Dr. Who virgin, I must say I actually got into the episode more than I'd expected to. So while it's been on for a gazillion years and I really don't understand the show's whole plotline or history, I can say that from watching one isolated episode I – despite being a patriotic American – already think it's a million times less stupid than Heroes ever was. Because Heroes has sucked like the suckiest thing that's ever sucked. Even though I have friends who've worked on the show, I really just can't condone that kind of awful... I wish they'd just let the world explode and kill the cheerleader at this point. (And seriously, those shadow things that turned people into skeletons really creeped me out! And what the Hell with Catherine Tate becoming some weird Wall-E librarian? Bloody Hell!)
posted by miss lynnster at 11:45 PM on January 4, 2009

Without reading through this thread, I'd simply like to say that this to the OP: congratulations, for you are truly obnoxious. Let your pathetic trollery continue on MeTa!
posted by nonmerci at 11:46 PM on January 4, 2009

miss lynnster - Blink and The Empty Child are, if anything, better.

...and then theres a bunch of stuff that makes Heroes look like a work of genius in there as well.
posted by Artw at 11:52 PM on January 4, 2009

I'm not an American, and I certainly use this, it's just standard English.

Really? It certainly isn't standard in Canada. The country to the south is never called America (though its inhabitants are called Americans and American is used as an adjective).

Standard for Americans and Brits, perhaps, but certainly not for everyone.
posted by ssg at 12:12 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Forgive them for they know not of what they speak.
posted by twoleftfeet at 12:18 AM on January 5, 2009

when Dr. Who was on BBC today and I saw Catherine Tate and Alex Kingston were cast too

Catherine Tate's work on the show sucked me into watching regularly for the first time since William Hartnoll quit some 40-odd years ago.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:12 AM on January 5, 2009

In the Australian parliament in the 70s, an outspoken member of parliament, Doug Anthony, leader of the Country Party, was making a speech, and was appealing to his rural roots:

"I'm a country member!"

A cry came from the opposite side of the chamber (legend has it, from Gough Whitlam):

"We remember!"
posted by Jimbob at 1:19 AM on January 5, 2009 [11 favorites]

Favourited for the warm chuckles of familiarity Jimbob, but swear I've heard it told with other principals.
posted by Abiezer at 1:51 AM on January 5, 2009

The correct use of the C word in Britain is in the sentence structure, "Bunch of c___s," and is to be used whilst watching More4 News.

It can be used to describe the politicians currently being interviewed; the warmongers being featured; the newscaster's questions; the story choices; the news graphics; the glib juxtaposition of grotesque tragedy and lighthearted human interest; or indeed any other facet of the show. It can be said in a tone of voice ranging from exasperated to enraged.

Bunch of c____s.

Artw, I think you're being a little silly. We all change our language every day in every situation. There's no need to be upsetting.

'Doctor Who' is fine, but no match for 'Dog Borstal or ''Can Fat Teens Hunt?'
posted by Cantdosleepy at 2:09 AM on January 5, 2009 [4 favorites]

Dear Brits. Keanu Reeves as John Constantine was just a warning. Now play ball (and I mean an honest-to-god oblong-ish pointy ball), or we'll use Nicholas Cage.
posted by qvantamon at 3:11 AM on January 5, 2009

The country to the south is never called America (though its inhabitants are called Americans and American is used as an adjective).

Yeah, I'm American and I always refer to the country itself as "The U.S." or often "The u-SOFA."

Also: I take my tea with nightcrawlers.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:26 AM on January 5, 2009

Many Americans think it would be cool to live in the UK (mainly because they watched too many episodes of Monty Python), and most young British people I know think they would be better off in America (mainly because of grossly misleading films and TV shows like "Friends").

The truth is: if you're rich, either country is pretty great. If you're poor, America kind of sucks when you get sick. Make of that what you will. The NHS isn't perfect, but it's better than FUCK ALL. I do love living here for other reasons, and I am getting ready for the odious "Life in the UK" test (required for naturalisation)... but the on-line UK-US pissing contest is really tired.

(p.s. I miss Mexican food)

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
- Albert Einstein

"It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind."
- Voltaire
posted by chuckdarwin at 3:46 AM on January 5, 2009 [4 favorites]

This thread is useless without chuckdarwin.

Yeah, I've missed you, too.
posted by chuckdarwin at 4:02 AM on January 5, 2009

The Office vs. The Office

Shouldn't that read The Office vs. The Ouffice
posted by Pollomacho at 5:48 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

If you're poor, America kind of sucks when you get sick.

Stuff that I've read suggests that you don't have to be poor. Many people with serious, chronic illness that requires expensive treatments might end up poor, even if they were relatively well to do to begin with. All it takes is a ceiling on your claims, combined with a need for very expensive treatment, and you're fucked.

Yet this doesn't sound like it can be correct? If this is true, how can so many people defend the existing system?

Also, on the 'c' word -- I was reading Ta-Nehisi Coates the other day, talking about the 'n' word. According to Coates, for people under the age of 30, the word 'nigga' is pretty well equivalent to the word 'dude'. When people use it in a racist way, he claims that he simply laughs at the fact that they think the word still has the capacity to hurt him of shock him.

I think that the 'c' word falls into a similar category. The use is much more acceptable in certain age and class groups than it is in others. Use it while having tea with the vicar in a Home Counties drawing room and people will be shocked. But among younger working class men and women across much of the country, the word cunt has the same sort of multiplicity of functions as the word 'nigga' does for young black people in the USA.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:50 AM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

Mexicans call the United States America, and do many Canadians,

Really? How lascivious of them!

slags
posted by Sparx at 6:07 AM on January 5, 2009

If this is true, how can so many people defend the existing system?

Have you seen our school system?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:15 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Stuff that I've read suggests that you don't have to be poor. Many people with serious, chronic illness that requires expensive treatments might end up poor, even if they were relatively well to do to begin with. All it takes is a ceiling on your claims, combined with a need for very expensive treatment, and you're fucked.

I have known Americans (citizens of the United States?!?) people who have lost their homes due to illness. Your point is completely valid.

If this is true, how can so many people defend the existing system?

People drink the Kool-aid, Peter. They drink the SOCIALISM IS BAD energy drink. They lap it up. What do you want me to say? The existing system makes certain people very rich... and (as utterly, floridly, grotesquely fucking fucked as it is) THEY'RE USED TO IT.

I don't think President Obama is going to get much of a chance to address because the bankers and money-pushers screwed the pooch so hard.
posted by chuckdarwin at 6:16 AM on January 5, 2009

Mexicans call the United States America, and do many Canadians,

Wait, no they don't! Mexicans at least.

Mexicans use "Los Estados Unidos" most often or, as its abbreviated in writing, EE. UU.
Which is a bit paradoxical since the official name of Mexico is Estados Unidos Mexicanos.

If you say 'America' in Mexico, everyone will think you are referring to this.
posted by vacapinta at 6:16 AM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]

(oops) I don't think President Obama is going to get much of a chance to address THE PROBLEM (American Health Care, or lack thereof) because...
posted by chuckdarwin at 6:17 AM on January 5, 2009

Thank you, vacapinta. You could fit what most people know about Mexico into a thimble.

That's one of the things that really bothers me about the UK, actually. Everyone knows that racism is bad, but Mexicans are still frequent targets of really blatant racism here (most recent episode of Shooting Stars, tortilla chip packaging at Tesco, etc). Everyone tells me to shut up about it, actually (THESE ARE THE LAST PEOPLE WE CAN BE RACIST ABOUT, PLEASE DON'T FUCK IT UP FOR US). I guess it's because Mexicans are "exotic".

I have had (this for reals, yo) many, many, MANY British people tell me that all Mexicans are WHITE. They just HAVE A TAN.

It fucking boggles the mind.
posted by chuckdarwin at 6:20 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

the word cunt has the same sort of multiplicity of functions as the word 'nigga' does for young black people in the USA.

I mainly noticed it down south. A guy I befriended in a hotel bar in London called me a "floppy-haired cunt" when he bought me a lager and obviously meant it with great affection.
posted by chuckdarwin at 6:26 AM on January 5, 2009

It's hard to find cunt horribly offensive when one hears it umpteen times a day. Round here at least, it's the common pronounciation of "couldn't".
posted by pinkbuttonanus at 6:30 AM on January 5, 2009

(p.s. I miss Mexican food)

I live in New England. So do I.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:24 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

What do you do in order to get your fix, Jessamyn? I have had to learn to cook a decent approximation of Mexican food with whatever I can get here.
posted by chuckdarwin at 7:29 AM on January 5, 2009

chuckdarwin - best Mexican food in London can be found at Wahaca. Seriously, my wife who worked in food service for ten years and ate amazing Mexican food cooked by the immigrant chefs she worked with, nearly cried with joy and relief when she had some tacos there, she'd been so homesick and missing Mexican food.

If you're not in London, well... dunno.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:36 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Wahaca, oddly enough, is run by the first winner of Masterchef (Goes Large)... Thomasina Miers.
posted by chuckdarwin at 7:38 AM on January 5, 2009

MANY British people tell me that all Mexicans are WHITE. They just HAVE A TAN.
I suspect that they see 'whiteness' predominantly as a religio-cultural moniker instead of an indication of pigmentation. And maybe the purported catholicism of mexicans can be interpreted as their religio-cultural 'whiteness'.
Which just shows us again that notions like 'white' just refer to a cluster of associations and do not denote anything clearly delineated.
Full disclosure: I know nothing about mexico/mexicans.

It seems that the hot-blooded heat of the UK vs US argument was cooling down. Thanks for segueing into race matters.
posted by jouke at 7:45 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

No problema, senor :-) Would you like to tell us all the story of the Zwarte Pieten?
posted by chuckdarwin at 8:00 AM on January 5, 2009

Segue? Take me to the bridge!
posted by ersatz at 8:02 AM on January 5, 2009

Whereabouts in the UK are you, chuckdarwin? And what was it brought you over here in the first place?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:03 AM on January 5, 2009

CIA - The World Factbook -- Mexico:

Ethnic groups:

mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%

See that word: Amerindian? That doesn't mean "white". Just sayin'.
posted by chuckdarwin at 8:05 AM on January 5, 2009

PeterMcDermott, you have been added. You also have memail. The last time I discussed my location here, essexjan put up a Google map link to my fucking flat.
posted by chuckdarwin at 8:10 AM on January 5, 2009

And maybe the purported catholicism of mexicans can be interpreted as their religio-cultural 'whiteness'.

Surely not? This must be a Dutch perception because for most of the last couple of hundred years, WASP's in the UK and the USA have seen Catholics as being just half a notch up from muslims, what with their swarthy mediterranean skin and their 'manyana' attitude. Then there's the tendencies to drink too much and use the baths to keep coal rather than to bathe in, in the case of the Irish.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:15 AM on January 5, 2009

Can we have a ruling on 'fanny' please?

I grew up with the word "twat." My own dear mother could not bring herself to use the word "vagina" even though she was a nurse. She always cheerfully used the word "twat" as in "The baby's little twat is looking a bit red; let's leave her diaper off for a while."

Hmm. Whiskey, milk, white cocoa, and creme de menthe....Emerald Island Kiss.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:20 AM on January 5, 2009

One thing that I can never order when I go back to the UK is a burger. I just find a UK burger a little depressing in the light of the burger joy that I have experienced state-side.
posted by ob at 8:20 AM on January 5, 2009

That's as mebbe, but you'll never see pease pudding again amongst the barbarians ob. Think on!
posted by Abiezer at 8:26 AM on January 5, 2009

One thing that I can never order when I go back to the UK is a burger.

Like, a McDonald's burger? I think they're the same everywhere.
posted by chuckdarwin at 8:26 AM on January 5, 2009

Yeah, it's not like it's Mexican food.
posted by Artw at 8:28 AM on January 5, 2009

I don't find anything about this the least bit funny. My father was killed by a twat.
posted by found missing at 8:32 AM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

I know you're snarking... BUT you would be shocked at the vast number of types of Mexican food... in Mexico and in the US. A lot of Americans think that "Tex-Mex" is Mexican food... or "Cal-Mex". Some sad fuckers even think the hideous dreck you get from Taco Hell is Mexican food. They are all sadly wrong. The truth is more glorious and weird.

It's a bit like Italy: every region has it's own generations-old recipes and the people dislike the recipes of the neighbouring regions. India is much the same, I hear (and obviously, the "Indian food" everyone in Britain adores isn't very Indian at all).
posted by chuckdarwin at 8:34 AM on January 5, 2009

Accordiing to wikipedia the word possibly originates from the Old Norse þveit meaning cut, slit, or forest clearing. Forest clearing is rather poetic, and I'm all about the þ.
posted by Artw at 8:36 AM on January 5, 2009

My own dear mother could not bring herself to use the word "vagina" even though she was a nurse. She always cheerfully used the word "twat".

Mine had a preference for 'snatch', which I always thought was much uglier than cunt. It has connotations of vagina dentata, and an avaricious, materialistic, all-consuming female sexuality capable of emasculating men who didn't perform to order.

My mum was a bit peculiar in that sense, because while I've known a lot of women who will happily refer to their cunt, I've never met one aside from my mum who would talk about their snatch.

Not that my mum talked about her snatch either, mind. For her, it was a term of abuse, deployed in the same way that cunt would be. She used twat and cunt as well, but nothing like as frequently as snatch.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:40 AM on January 5, 2009

Oh and clicking one of the links gives a reference and link to Language Hat.
posted by Artw at 8:43 AM on January 5, 2009

(sung to the theme of Postman Pat):

Language Hat, Language Hat, Language Hat and a Nun's Old Twat.
posted by chuckdarwin at 8:47 AM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]

Skynyrd is not a trash rock band.

/late to the party
posted by BitterOldPunk at 8:52 AM on January 5, 2009

2. Foghat is from England.

Foghat are from England. Just to add to jessamyn's list.
posted by ninebelow at 8:59 AM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

They are all sadly wrong. The truth is more glorious and weird.

To continue the Mexican food thread...

I miss pozole and ash tamales and a strong churipo but most of all I miss Michoacan-style carnitas!

I doubt most Americans have ever had true copper-pot Michoacan carnitas. I lived in San Francisco for 10 years and the only place that I ever found them was at a place called Cafe Marimba which closed down in the late 90s! So, no, these aren't your typical taqueria carnitas. They are something much much more delicious.
posted by vacapinta at 9:03 AM on January 5, 2009

We won both of them, against the British at least, even if the second one was problematic and the Canadians kicked our ass.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 3:33 PM on January 4 [+] [!]

The Canadians WERE the British - this comment makes about as much sense as saying that you beat the Americans, but the Californians kicked your ass. The locals were British citizens (the majority of the Anglos were probably born in Britain or the American colonies), and the soldiers were British soldiers, from all over the British Empire, and also from bits like Hanover which weren't really British but just happened to be owned by the British King.

As for the England/UK/Britain debate.

England - refers only to that "green and pleasant land" where there is no official bilingualism (unlike the mountainous bilingual place) and you pay a lot more for university (unlike the cheap university mountainous place). The distinction is huge (well, as huge as anything in a tiny island(s) nation could be), and important, and it's stupid to call Britain "England". The Dutch might not care about the Holland/Netherlands distinction, but the British do. It's like calling the US "Texas" - which I just might start doing if I meet any more people who call Britain England.

When I say "England", I mean England - east of the Marches, south of Hadrian's wall, and subject to English (as opposed to Scottish or Welsh or Northern Irish) laws, and the people who live in this region are "English" - as opposed to Welsh or Scottish or Northern Irish.

Britain/UK - there is no point in distinguising these, it's pendantic. Sure, "Great Britain" as it existed between 1707 and 1801 didn't include any of Ireland (as it had its own parliament), but since there is no good adjectival form of "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland/Northern Ireland" (depending on whether you are talking 19th or 20th century) and it's too long anyways, you can just call that entity thing "Britain" and all the people/things/etc. of this state are "British". It's dominated by the English (because that is the most populous region), but includes the whole - kilts are British, and so is Morris Dancing, Westminster is British and so is the Scottish Nationalist Party and Plaid Cymru.
posted by jb at 9:04 AM on January 5, 2009

Chuck, you seem to be doing well on the restaurant suggestions here. If you're Team London then head to Rasa in Stoke Newington - there's a veggie and a carnie near each other. Amazing South Indian cuisine. Boy yes.
posted by Cantdosleepy at 9:12 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Wait... wait... we went from twolefttroll being called out for trolling, to Artw starting to flame out over being able to use the C word, to where to get mexican food in New England?! I love you guys!*

* except twoleftfeet. I'm not sure whose sockpuppet you are, but after 3 strikes you're definitely not here for the lovefest.
^^ trying to bring this back to the beginning! ^^
posted by cavalier at 9:14 AM on January 5, 2009

miss lynnster: Because Heroes has sucked like the suckiest thing that's ever sucked.

Season 1 was good. Season 2 led to a public written apology from its creator. Season 3 was just omg random for plot & characterization, & this list got lengthened considerably.

I watched it with friends for fun, you know, ironically, & still, I think they'd weaponized stupidity because they still managed to piss us off regularly.
posted by Pronoiac at 9:15 AM on January 5, 2009

Like, a McDonald's burger? I think they're the same everywhere.

Oh, GOOD GOD! People: get chuckdarwin to In-N-Out* stat!

*or Barneys. or Hellburger. or Good Stuff. or any of the countless places where a "burger" isn't a sad little gray patty...no wonder Britons have a reputation for equating food with a penance for living.
posted by kittyprecious at 9:17 AM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

The Canadians WERE the British - this comment makes about as much sense as saying that you beat the Americans, but the Californians kicked your ass.

Exactly. You can't see a situation where one group does quite well, but you still end up winning the war against the larger group?

We beat the British in 1812, though it wasn't a cakewalk, as the burn marks under the paint at the White House can tell you. The Canadian contingent however? Kicked our ass.

What's the problem here?
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 9:21 AM on January 5, 2009

WASP vs catholic
PeterMcD, I stand corrected and bow to your superior wisdom.

Would you like to tell us all the story of the Zwarte Pieten?
Wow, chuckdarwin, I didn't think of that. Good work; indeed we the Dutch can cause offence too. And it's a bit of a classic too: we've gone over the zwarte piet vs blackface thing at least three times here on metafilter.
posted by jouke at 9:24 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

The last time I discussed my location here, essexjan put up a Google map link to my fucking flat.

I'd actually forgotten where you lived, chuckiedear, but by googling "chuckdarwin location" (Google.co.uk - not Google.com) the first link was information YOU had posted somewhere else online (not MeFi related) with the name of your town. So don't try to take the moral high ground with me here, I still have the screen grab, which I was hoping to use after you'd sicced your solicitor on me for allegedly breaching your privacy.

And I didn't post a Google link to your flat, because I don't know your address. I know the town (now), but there's no need to lie and make yourself out to be the victim when you yourself put the info about your location out there on the web for anyone to find.
posted by essexjan at 9:32 AM on January 5, 2009

Cantdosleepy: If you're Team London then head to Rasa in Stoke Newington - there's a veggie and a carnie near each other. Amazing South Indian cuisine. Boy yes.

Boy yes indeed! Rasa is amazing. Second best Indian food I've ever had.

The best, you ask? At a Hindu wedding in Columbus, Ohio of all places.
posted by Kattullus at 9:33 AM on January 5, 2009

The last time I discussed my location here, essexjan put up a Google map link to my fucking flat.

No she didn't, for the record.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:37 AM on January 5, 2009

Boy yes indeed! Rasa is amazing. Second best Indian food I've ever had.

And just to round things out, for amazing Kashmiri/Pakistani food, head to The Lahore Kebab House. Loud, brightly lit, brisk, Bollywood movies (or cricket) on widescreens everywhere, fricking amazing food. Cheap too, and BYOB.
posted by Happy Dave at 9:40 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

By a strange coincidence, the best Mexican food I've ever had was at a wedding in Bedfordshire. So there you go.
posted by Cantdosleepy at 9:40 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

While we're on Indian food recommendations in London, could someone do south of the River? (London Bridge/Waterloo/Southwark)?
posted by Infinite Jest at 9:45 AM on January 5, 2009

Based on this thread, we're going to try out Wahaca in Covent Garden tonight. I remain skeptical as always, but Happy Dave's recommendation is not to be ignored.
posted by vacapinta at 9:52 AM on January 5, 2009

I will happily trade 99% of the shitty Mexican restaurants that stand on every corner of my little suburban section of the sunny American South for one decent Indian restaurant. I live in one of the greatest places in the world for good fresh food and I can't find even a decent chicken tikka. Curry is the last food frontier down heah, it seems.

Although I have been known to make a dish of collard greens in coconut milk that will make you slap your mama.

Also: why are so many of the good comic book writers British?
posted by BitterOldPunk at 9:52 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

As a Canadian, I would like to weigh in on this whole mess and just say:

We're sorry. Excuse us.
posted by never used baby shoes at 9:54 AM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

OK, OK, I meant from the UK. Grant Morrison is Scottish and Garth Ennis is Irish.

And Alan Moore is from Mars.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 9:55 AM on January 5, 2009

Artw starting to flame out over being able to use the C word

Ahem. I did nothing of the sort. That whole subthread basically started with me calling a defense of the C-word a bit bollocksy.
posted by Artw at 9:57 AM on January 5, 2009

Also: why are so many of the good comic book writers British?

2000ad.
posted by Artw at 9:58 AM on January 5, 2009 [4 favorites]

Ooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, In-and-Out Burger. The only place that comes close here is Lucky 7.
posted by mippy at 10:07 AM on January 5, 2009

"Yet this doesn't sound like it can be correct? If this is true, how can so many people defend the existing system?"

Most people aren't poor or sick. For them, the system works. Especially if you hate poor or sick people.
posted by klangklangston at 10:08 AM on January 5, 2009

Ahem. I did nothing of the sort.

Err, ahem ahem, you sure did?

"bercause no one is changing my mind on how I use it."
"I'm not going to stuntily start usiong it every other sentence or anything but I talk the way I talk, and will continue to talk the way I talk, and if it really comes to the point where someones asking me to lesave the site because of it than that's just the way it is."
"Well, if we want to get all identity politics on this then no, you cannot understand my feelings on this."
"We can discuss it, but it's not changing. So if it causes a problem then, well, consequences of said problem will have to fall on me. But it is not changing."

I mean, we could hyperlink it if you want, but how is this not essentially going "I'm artw and I'm never going to stop using the C word if I want to! Y'all can't make me! RAWRR!"

If you're going by semantics and saying "Oh ho ho, that's where it went, but that's not how it started" well... err... I guess you got me there... ? I could say instead, "Artw made a stand for his sovereignty in terms of his language use over the C word in a rather flaming red fashion?"

disclaimer: I have not make a single air quotation gesture in this whole post.
posted by cavalier at 10:08 AM on January 5, 2009

That's actually a bit of a glib answer - in it's heyday 2000ad was able to pull on talent from a previously established, vibrant and diverse UK comics industry (one which, with a few notable exceptions that have clung grimly to life, is largely gone now). Most of the writers that really defined 2000ad came from girls comics.
posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

I like Mexican food. This is the best Mexican food I've ever had. God, I want an al pastor mulita right now.
posted by Bookhouse at 10:13 AM on January 5, 2009

cavalier - because it's predicated on the word twat being a direct adjunct to twat, which really isn't the case for me.

That Americans always default to talking about cunt with twat as a weird little footnote ("means the same thing I guess, lets call it equally offensive") doesn't exactly sway me, neither does "The internets are American dude, learn the rules!".
posted by Artw at 10:15 AM on January 5, 2009

Point of order: I believe he was talking about the word "twat".
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:15 AM on January 5, 2009

"The internets are American dude, learn the rules!"

God do I not want to get into another go-around here, but, no. Different. This:

"A lot of the people on Metafilter happen to be Americans, and they find that shit fairly offensive in a lot of contexts, so it'd be a gesture of good faith on your part to take that into account when you choose your words, please".
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:18 AM on January 5, 2009

but the Californians kicked your ass

Just to allay any fears, I think I can safely say we Californians are too balkanized and self-absorbed to kick any ass, except on accident.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:26 AM on January 5, 2009

To me, the Zwarte Pieten is sort of the reverse corollary to cortex's excellent remark about linguistic (cultural) sensitivity, i.e. if I am from a community where the c-word is under some circumstances perfectly acceptable but move into a larger community where it will offend a lot of people, it is perhaps wise to not go around dropping c-bombs left and right. (I think I had to find this out the hard way.)

Conversely, if you move from a larger community into a smaller one where something you might consider offensive is generally accepted as benign, i.e. white guys in blackface throwing sweets at kids, you had probably best realize that your moral framework is not the touchstone for all things, and that your moral outrage is misdirected at best. (I still see a lot of non-Dutch struggling with this one.)

Also:

I don't think anybody but Gerard Reve and his readers would talk about liefdesgrot. But maybe it's more common in the gay scene. Of course there's nothing specifically Dutch about that kind of simile.

I know! The "kont" connection might be etymologically sound, what do I know. But beyond that, it seems like such a tenuous note.

>MANY British people tell me that all Mexicans are WHITE. They just HAVE A TAN.

I suspect that they see 'whiteness' predominantly as a religio-cultural moniker instead of an indication of pigmentation. And maybe the purported catholicism of mexicans can be interpreted as their religio-cultural 'whiteness'.

What do Brits know? They're pink! J/k. But I agree, it does seem that there is a difference between Euros and Americans in race perception: it seems weird to me that a Mexican of (almost) completely Southern European descent (thus of negligible Native American or other descent) wouldn't be considered "white" in the US, but a Spanish person of equal descent probably wouldn't be considered a member of a different ethnic group than a French or Dutch person.

A recent Radiolab episode deals with this, it's very entertaining.

And as far as tans go: you know what Berlusconi said of Obama, right?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:27 AM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]

Thus far I appear to have utterly failed to offend anyone with the use of the word as far as I know. It's only in these stupid beatdowns that Americans express offense, and always by translating it into cunt. So no, it is not your word, you do not get to choose how I use it, and I'm vaguely offended by the implication that you should be able to.
posted by Artw at 10:27 AM on January 5, 2009

Oh, twat? Well hell's bells, that's ok then isn't it? I kid, but seriously, can I still cast it as a little flame out? Because I mean, it still had the "Rawr" factor to it? The I'm not gonna take it, anymore?
posted by cavalier at 10:27 AM on January 5, 2009

More "I am going to continue to use my judgement on this matter and ignore your dictat, realising of course that there may be consequences to that, but on this i am simply not able to comply".
posted by Artw at 10:29 AM on January 5, 2009

"I will happily trade 99% of the shitty Mexican restaurants that stand on every corner of my little suburban section of the sunny American South for one decent Indian restaurant. I live in one of the greatest places in the world for good fresh food and I can't find even a decent chicken tikka. Curry is the last food frontier down heah, it seems."

Whaddaya mean, Punk? I know of good Indian all over the South… (checks location) Oh, um, Alabama, yeah… Sorry. Georgia (both Atlanta and Athens), Mississippi, Louisiana, St. Louis, I've had Indian in, but Alabama? Fuck, man, I don't think I've ever eaten anything that wasn't fast food there. (Not exactly vegetarian friendly).

I'm kinda lucky, in that the Indian foods I most prefer (Punjabi and Uttar Pradeshi) seem to be the most prevalent forms over here. I'm not really much of a dosa or idli, and most Indian pickles leave me cold. I kinda wish that I could find some East Indian or Tamil food to try, as they both look pretty good…

For Mexican, I'm kind of surprised at how dominant Oaxacan food is here in LA. I like mole as much as the next guy, but jeez, it's everywhere. Probably because I'm in West LA though, as East LA has a lot more indigenous Mexican cuisine.
posted by klangklangston at 10:29 AM on January 5, 2009

Aw, man. I was going to name jonmc's drink and then comment on mexican food and now we're back to t--t?

drink - Wintergreen Lifesaver

messican food - got nuthin' for London, sorry, but I can send recipes.

wordz: I'm 1/4 Mexican, and my (white) math teacher in High School said, "but that's just a Caucasian mix, right?". On census records, my Mexican ancestors are listed as "White". I used to call myself a "half-breed" but that offended several of my Black friends, so I stopped using it.

I didn't change my mind about how I felt about it, but after a few reminders, remembered not to say it in certain situations.
posted by lysdexic at 10:30 AM on January 5, 2009

OOOOOOOOOOK I get it now. Artw is taking a principled stand, to make a point about being censured, I think, and all we're doing is antagonizing this stand by asking him not to use it.

Great. I dig it. And I guess all our asking here saying "hey man, the community man, this community you're communing with, man, this community man they don't dig that talk, man, makes the ladies feel bad and the sensitive lads all itchy, man, can you chill with that lingo with this community, man?" isn't getting through because it, in effect, is asking ArtW to censure.

Sooo. Unstoppable force, immovable object, one man is an island. I don't think Artw intends to call anybody a twXt directly, but as he has so resolutely stated X times in this thread, we're not going to get the opportunity to bring him down. Even though we're calling it community, he's calling it braveheart. Whatevs. Foo.
posted by cavalier at 10:30 AM on January 5, 2009

[Hey! this is probably night worth fighting over! ZING!]
posted by cavalier at 10:30 AM on January 5, 2009

Also, is it too early for Alphabet Questions?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:35 AM on January 5, 2009

Balls, probably not?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:36 AM on January 5, 2009

Can't be too late, surely?
posted by Kattullus at 10:38 AM on January 5, 2009

I have no problem with anyone from England. I like English people. They speak my language and have some excellent beer. Monte Python also kicks ass. They are always on the up and up in the music scene. Plus Guy Richie films are awesome. Besides have you noticed that in whatever stupid thing the GOP gets us into England is always backing us up? So yell back and forth all you want but I am and will always be a fan of England. God bless the Queen! In conclusion England is a land of contrast.
posted by Mastercheddaar at 10:40 AM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]

Do you really need two alphabet threads at once? At the risk of playing and not playing, I'd answer "is it too early?" with "yes"
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:40 AM on January 5, 2009

Besides have you noticed that in whatever stupid thing the GOP gets us into England is always backing us up?

We've noticed it. And tend to be not too happy about it.
posted by Artw at 10:41 AM on January 5, 2009

Georgia (both Atlanta and Athens)

Savannah also has decent Indian, plus several Mexican places.

Sushi though, that's where it's at.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:41 AM on January 5, 2009

Eh, alright, where's the other one then?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:41 AM on January 5, 2009

Far down the MetaTalk archive.

Statement! Fifteen - love.
posted by Kattullus at 10:44 AM on January 5, 2009

Did any other American kids, when learning geography, automatically assume South Korea, South Vietnam, South Dakota were bad because of the North/South divide?

Whoa whoa whoa. I realize I'm a bit late to derail this thread, but EVERYONE knows North Dakota is a steaming shitpile compared to South Dakota. South Dakota has Wall Drug, and some Badlands, and Mount Rushmore. What does North Dakota have? Squat.

/former South Dakotan who no longer cares but COME ON
posted by graventy at 10:55 AM on January 5, 2009

The University at Hoople, plus that Coen Brothers movie.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:56 AM on January 5, 2009

Klang - this Yucatan bakery is worth a trip. Coconut creme empanadas and bolobanes, which are jalapeno-cream cheese fried dough balls dusted in sugar. Ye gods.

Maybe I should go eat something.
posted by Bookhouse at 11:05 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Gratitude, honorable Icelandic jockey Kattullus! Let's make no overly prodigal Questions rounds -- superfluous threads unnecessarily vex wanton xenophobic yokels, zing?

CARRY ON
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:09 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

"Why did you get banned?"
"They wanted me to stop saying 'cunt'."

Is this the hill you want to die on?
posted by Meatbomb at 11:18 AM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]

Again, translated to cunt.
posted by Artw at 11:19 AM on January 5, 2009

Again, translated to cunt.
Are we talking about Tommy Sheridan going from working class hero to Celebrity Big Brother contestant?
posted by Abiezer at 11:24 AM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

I ~~hate~~ heart this thread.
posted by Happy Dave at 11:28 AM on January 5, 2009

"They are always on the up and up in the music scene."

Ahem. Gay Dad.

Klang - this Yucatan bakery is worth a trip. Coconut creme empanadas and bolobanes, which are jalapeno-cream cheese fried dough balls dusted in sugar. Ye gods."

Oh, that does sound good. Hoover, y'say? Hmm.

I've just found a pupuseria (spelling?) that's pretty tits (can I say that? It means good!) a couple blocks south from me, which is pretty sweet. Apparently, that's more of a Central American thing than a Mexican thing, but it works for me.

(And, back to Indian, I've actually been to that place in Savannah, and [if I'm not mistaken] they used to have a sister restaurant in a weird strip mall outside of Atlanta that was pretty good. That one had been totally redone the last time I drove through there, to something like The Rose of India or some such, and it was one of those places that's surprisingly opulent inside once you're past the strip mall facade. Kinda liked 'em better when they were a cheaper lunch counter though…)
posted by klangklangston at 11:34 AM on January 5, 2009

The special relationship's a bit twatty today.
posted by fleacircus at 11:36 AM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Like, a McDonald's burger? I think they're the same everywhere.

No, that's not a burger. That's shit in a bun. I mean a burger like one would order in a restaurant. A proper restaurant. It's just not the same thing. I also get very annoyed my my compatriots calling it a beefburger ("because it's not made of ham, it's made of beef!")
posted by ob at 11:36 AM on January 5, 2009

I doubt most Americans have ever had true copper-pot Michoacan carnitas. I lived in San Francisco for 10 years and the only place that I ever found them was at a place called Cafe Marimba which closed down in the late 90s!

vacapinta, I do believe that Jalisco Cafe in Oakland makes carnias in a caso- at least, I know for a fact that it's sister restaurant, the now defunct Jalisco II, used them. They sell carnitas by the pound, only on Fridays and Saturdays, and if you get there late, you get all sorts of pig parts. So, if you ever come back, I suggest checking it out.

Back to the topic at hand, I really can't conjure up any outrage at the use of the word twat. It's really sort of a silly word, isn't it? But then I live in a place with excellent Mexican food and the 5th highest murder rate in the country, so I feel that my awesome/awful meter is pretty finely calibrated. But that's just me.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:37 AM on January 5, 2009

Also Artw, why do you like saying cunt so much?

*ducks under table.
posted by ob at 11:38 AM on January 5, 2009

I'll tell you what I miss: frozen microwavable fried chicken. For some reason that never really took hold overseas.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:48 AM on January 5, 2009

There's a Lenny Bruce routine about how he was arrested for using the word motherfucker on stage, and when he went to court, the prosecuter said "He said motherfucker!" and the judge said "Oh, no, not motherfucker!" and the defense lawyer said "why can't he say motherfucker?" and by the end of it the baliffs and the jury and the witnesses were all saying "motherfucker motherfucker motherfucker," like they were using his arrest as an excuse to say the word.

This thread is starting to feel like an excuse to say twat and cunt.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:48 AM on January 5, 2009

I've just found a pupuseria (spelling?) that's pretty tits (can I say that? It means good!)

What's it called? Thin Lizzy and I had already decided to try pupusas tonight, although there's supposed to be a pretty good joint near here.

More threads should be about food, like this one.
posted by Bookhouse at 11:50 AM on January 5, 2009

Foghat are from England. Just to add to jessamyn's list.

Foghat is the plural of Foghat?
posted by electroboy at 11:52 AM on January 5, 2009

Foghat is the plural of Foghat?

Oh jeez not this again...
posted by ob at 11:54 AM on January 5, 2009

"Christians can stop being Christian if they can't deal with the ridicule"

Klang, are you serious? I hope that was a poorly thought out throwaway.
posted by oddman at 11:56 AM on January 5, 2009

Most of the people who make fun of Foghat are too young to remember Foghat, who really aren't all that bad.
posted by jonmc at 11:57 AM on January 5, 2009

grapefruitmoon: "USian" and its variants drives me bats. America is IN THE NAME of the country. Until we have "The Canadian States of America" or the "Mexican States of America" or the "Brazilian States of America" there is no confusion or disrespect by referring to residents of the USA as "Americans." We named our country after the continent. Sorry guys, we had very little imagination. It's the way it goes.

But it's not fair. Other languages have this word. Spanish, for instance, has Estadounidense ('USian') as opposed to Americano ('American.') Why can't we have it too? I mean, hell, we live here; we may as well have a specific word for our residence here in our own goddamned language.

And 'Unitedstatesian' just sounds so awkward that 'USian' just seems like the only option.
posted by koeselitz at 11:58 AM on January 5, 2009

This thread is pukka.
posted by koeselitz at 12:01 PM on January 5, 2009

I mean, hell, we live here; we may as well have a specific word for our residence here in our own goddamned language.

We do. The fact that the Spanish word "Americano" means something different than the American English word "American" is not really an issue if you're speaking American English.
posted by smackfu at 12:08 PM on January 5, 2009

Lets just start calling it Yanquistan.
posted by Artw at 12:11 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Lets just start calling it Yanquistan.

How about renaming Britain to India? The food options would be much improved.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:15 PM on January 5, 2009

But what if that had the opposite effect and Indian food became Britified into hideous levels of blandness.

"Oi! Who wants a spinach stew with bits of cheese floating about in it?"
posted by Kattullus at 12:24 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Most of the people who make fun of Foghat are too young to remember Foghat, who really aren't all that bad.

Wait. Hold up. This cannot pass. If we go down this path, then we'll soon be saying shit like, well, Molly Hatchet wasn't all that bad, or, Hall & Oates were really kinda soulful, or, Styx had some good ideas.

No, no, no, no, no.

I'm drawing a line in the sand here.

Foghat sucked then, sucks now, and sucks always.

Your revisionist rock incrementalism shall not stand, sir.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:25 PM on January 5, 2009

smackfu: We do. The fact that the Spanish word "Americano" means something different than the American English word "American" is not really an issue if you're speaking American English.

Fine. What exactly does the American English word 'American' mean?

It's just an incredibly awkward word, not least because it's a word that one would wish to use often with people who don't necessarily know the language perfectly, but who are most likely to be offended by its implications.

You know - even though the Mexicans were here first we just assumed that we could just refer to ourselves by the name of the continent and people would see by the fact that we're wearing clothes and not crawling around on all fours that we're from 'the REAL American nation' and not 'those other barbaric American nations which aren't really nations at all,' and besides, sooner or later the rest of the continent will belong to us anyhow, right?

I just don't see why we have to have one word that means two things when two words would be much easier to deal with. It's just not lekker.
posted by koeselitz at 12:36 PM on January 5, 2009

I like a few Foghat songs. I don't know Molly Hatchet but Hall & Oates wrote some superb pop songs and Styx, at their most insane, are supremely enjoyable. Seriously, the Behind the Music episode about Styx was like a real-life Spinal Tap (On the Kilroy was Here tour: "The kids just wanted to rock out and we were giving them Shakespeare!)

I'm paraphrasing the quote a little bit, but that's pretty much how it went
posted by Kattullus at 12:40 PM on January 5, 2009

Kattullus - Heh. I don't see any American-style curry houses in London named after New York streets.

(On the other hand I don't think America can claim to have invented something as horrible as Coronation chicken, so ups-and-downs. )
posted by Artw at 12:43 PM on January 5, 2009

I just don't see why we have to have one word that means two things when two words would be much easier to deal with.

Why does "gift" mean "poison" in German? I mean, that could get awfully confusing if you're discussing Christmas with someone who isn't very good at English. They'll think we're monsters!!! So why don't we use a different word to mean "gift"?
posted by smackfu at 12:50 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

The kids just wanted to rock out and we were giving them Shakespeare!

This is NOT a reason to like Styx. In fact, it's a perfectly valid reason to HATE them.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:55 PM on January 5, 2009

On the british comics thing, Marvel UK probably had as much of a hand in incubating currently active British talent as 2000AD - Warren Ellis didn't do any 2000ad work at all, and Morrison’s first professional work may have been for them. Simon Furman isn’t as much of a big comics name, but he's got a bit of a following too.
posted by Artw at 1:01 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

I just don't see why we have to have one word that means two things when two words would be much easier to deal with.

Welcome to the real world. You're going to find it excruciating.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:01 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Hey, I like Coronation Chicken.
posted by Happy Dave at 1:24 PM on January 5, 2009

1. Warrior magazine was also very important, though obvously a continuation of the work editor Dez Skinn had begun at Marvel UK (it was in Warrior that V for Vendetta and Miracleman began).

2. May I introduce to the word "twunt" - popular with people like Charlie Brooker because, although it's obviously a combination of the words "twat" and "cunt", it's neither of them and so slips through the censor's net. Unless someone else has already mentioned it upthread and I missed it.
posted by Grangousier at 1:30 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

smackfu: Why does "gift" mean "poison" in German?

Because, though the German and English words both have the same root, the original German 'geban' (to give), the German word 'vergeben' (to poison; also to forgive) morphed into 'gift,' while we got our word in an indirect way from the Old Norse word 'gipt.'

Incidentally, Heinrich Heine is supposed to have met a French woman once who seemed afraid of him; when he asked why, she said, "I know all about you Germans; you use the same word for 'to poison' as for 'to forgive'!"

smackfu: I mean, that could get awfully confusing if you're discussing Christmas with someone who isn't very good at English. They'll think we're monsters!!! So why don't we use a different word to mean "gift"?

No, no, no - you're doing it wrong.

First of all, I was saying 'American' means two different things in one language, whereas 'gift' means two different things in two languages. But that's beside the point.

Second of all, I'm not saying that there can't be homophones. I don't have a problem with 'rose' and 'rose' or with 'stool' and 'stool' or whatever. But this particular homophone really annoys me because it has no reason to exist beyond the centuries of arrogance that led my ancestors to neglect even to acknowledge that there are other nations on this continent by having a name for all of us.

I guess it's no big deal. Words shouldn't get people upset, it's what's meant by them. It's only that I hate having to explain the word 'American' to people, I hate the fact that I can't call myself an 'American' without thinking about that past and without wondering what I even mean when I say it.

But, like cortex says, I guess the real world is excruciating, eh?
posted by koeselitz at 1:38 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Grangousier: May I introduce to the word "twunt" - popular with people like Charlie Brooker because, although it's obviously a combination of the words "twat" and "cunt", it's neither of them and so slips through the censor's net. Unless someone else has already mentioned it upthread and I missed it.

Actually, I prefer the term 'quat.' It's more fun to say, and as a deflection from the source words it's got a vulgar pun that refers to fruit built into it just waiting to be used. What more could you want?
posted by koeselitz at 1:41 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

It's only that I hate having to explain the word 'American' to people

Where are you that this comes up? Canada?
posted by smackfu at 1:42 PM on January 5, 2009

Gah, yeah, Warrior was super-important - though most of the strips we remember it for were by guys pretty established at the time.

And despite the huge importance of Eagle and Dan Dare I'm not sure they can lay claim to anyone who went on to be big in US comics - maybe some people from the Eagle relaunch, but there we're probably talking about people who were writing for 2000ad already.

2000ad of course wouldn't have happened without Action...

And what else? Deadline, Blast and the late 80s early 90s comics scene? 2000ad hangs pretty heavy over them too.
posted by Artw at 1:42 PM on January 5, 2009

smackfu: Where are you that this comes up? Canada?

The INTERNET.

Well, and I used to live in New Mexico.
posted by koeselitz at 1:48 PM on January 5, 2009

Great. Now I can't tell if we are talking about relentlessly mediocre bands or British comic books.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:48 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

This reminds me of a t-shirt I used to see around Santa Fe that said:

I'm NOT Hispanic
I'm NOT Latina
I'm MEXICAN.
posted by koeselitz at 1:49 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Food. We're talking about food.
posted by Happy Dave at 1:52 PM on January 5, 2009

On the other hand, I much prefer baked beans in the UK to baked beans here so it's swings and roundabouts really.
posted by ob at 2:02 PM on January 5, 2009

Well in that case, I'll just say that I am having a really excellent late lunch of lentils and smoked ham on toast. Perfect for a drizzly day.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:02 PM on January 5, 2009

There's only one country with America in its name. Referring to the United States of America as American is a short form, a colloquialism. Just like people call the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Rhode Island.
posted by found missing at 2:03 PM on January 5, 2009

That does sound like a good lunch, I must say.
posted by ob at 2:06 PM on January 5, 2009

I would definitely count America as a relentlessly mediocre band.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:07 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Furthermore, apart from the horrible band, there isn't any other America to confuse it with. There is no continent of America. There is a North America, South America etc., and, collectively there are the Americas, but if you say America, you are unequivocally referring to a country located in North America adjacent to Mexico and Canada.
posted by found missing at 2:10 PM on January 5, 2009

(And seriously, those shadow things that turned people into skeletons really creeped me out! And what the Hell with Catherine Tate becoming some weird Wall-E librarian? Bloody Hell!)

You managed to catch a Steven Moffatt episode, which is absolutely the best way to be introduced to the recent Doctor Who. It could have been worse -- you could have been introduced by "Love and Monsters," as I inadvertently did to my sister.

The good news is, Moffatt's going to be running the show starting in 2010.

</nerd>
posted by kindall at 2:11 PM on January 5, 2009

Foghat sucked then, sucks now, and sucks always.

Uriah Heep, on the other hand, were true epitomes of Ultimate Awesomeness, standing tallest in the stratospheric reaches of Rock Godhood, right up there alongside Black Oak, Arkansas and the Lemonpipers. That is where the pantheon begins -- are we not agreed on this ?
posted by y2karl at 2:12 PM on January 5, 2009

I'm NOT Hispanic

George Lopez would always add "I don't want to be called anything with the word 'panic,' in it."
posted by jonmc at 2:13 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

From now on, I am going to address and describe people with antiquated 19th century racial/religious terminology, such as:

"Heathen Chinee"

"Romanist"

"Hebrew Race"

"Mohammedan"

"Colored Gentleman"

And if you don't like it, tough shit. The Man ain't gonna cramp my style.
posted by jason's_planet at 2:14 PM on January 5, 2009

Sure thing, squarehead. ;>
posted by jonmc at 2:15 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

I like this thread, it's like being at the pub. And it seems that twoleftfeet underestimated the strenghth of the beer and passed out in the toilets.
posted by Grangousier at 2:18 PM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]

"What's it called? Thin Lizzy and I had already decided to try pupusas tonight, although there's supposed to be a pretty good joint near here.

It's just north of the studio lot, off of Overland. If you call me after work, I can grab my neighbor who introduced me to it. I've been there a couple of times, but never bothered to learn what the hell it's called.

Pupusas, black beans, chili and fried plantains is sounding pretty good right now.
posted by klangklangston at 2:26 PM on January 5, 2009

I'm headed home to home made pinto beans, monterrey jack cheese, and home made corn tortillas. Maybe some roasted chicken mixed in.

And white chocolate cocoa. Thanks jonmc!
posted by lysdexic at 2:30 PM on January 5, 2009

you're welcome. I'm out of creme de menthe dammit an white mocha mix. I'll use ovaltine I guess.
posted by jonmc at 2:32 PM on January 5, 2009

Just like people call the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Rhode Island.

Nah, they call it Little Rhody. But close 'nuff.

Also: A McDonald's burger bears as about as much resemblance to an actual burger as a Polar Bear does to the planet Jupiter. Honestly. A real burger is at least 8oz. (Eff that "quarter pound" crap - that's a measly 4oz!) pink in the middle and juicy enough to make a mess of your hands when you eat it.

A McDonald's burger, OTOH, is a quasi-digestible hockey puck.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:33 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

That doesn't really describe over 99% of the burgers I've seen in America.
posted by Artw at 2:36 PM on January 5, 2009

All kidding aside, my dad says the UK has better Indian food than India, ironically. Go figure.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:38 PM on January 5, 2009

I guess now would be a good a time to admit that I do, in fact, think Black Oak Arkansas is an under-appreciated band.

They're the best band I ever saw at the Alabama State Fair, and I saw Asleep At The Wheel at the Alabama State Fair once. So there.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 2:39 PM on January 5, 2009

That doesn't really describe over 99% of the burgers I've seen in America.

Eat somewhere besides a franchise place.

I guess now would be a good a time to admit that I do, in fact, think Black Oak Arkansas is an under-appreciated band.

"Lord Have Mercy On My Soul" is a great piece of sheer over-the-topness in a good way.
posted by jonmc at 2:42 PM on January 5, 2009

"Klang, are you serious? I hope that was a poorly thought out throwaway."

Vaguely serious, yes. After the liberal hand-waving about how, of course, we should all read Locke's letter on tolerance and understand that an individual's relationship with God is something that probably shouldn't be mocked, I rather refuse to equate religious identity with national or racial identities, which are much more accidental and intractable. That I got into a lengthy flame-war over repeatedly making a similar point to Astro Zombie about Judaism would make it rather unseemly if I held Christians to a lower standard simply because it's more in vogue to mock them. Particularly because, and I can't believe that I'm writing so much after such a transparently disingenuous claim, of the Christian history of martyrdom. Christianity never would have happened if, after "The men who were guarding Jesus began mocking and beating him," (Luke 22:63-64) Jesus just said, "Man, maybe this IS 'gaytarded.' I wonder how I could get a gig in the army…"

I generally defend people of faith here. But that doesn't excuse them from mealy-mouthed whining and an attempt to equate their brief discomfort regarding the sneering asides (with usually a dollop of legitimate criticism thrown in) that generally characterize discussions on religion here.
posted by klangklangston at 2:44 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

That doesn't really describe over 99% of the burgers I've seen in America.

Then you've been eating crap burgers.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:44 PM on January 5, 2009

Obligatory Going out for an English link.
posted by Artw at 2:47 PM on January 5, 2009

Then you've been eating crap burgers.

This is a bit like the argument that America has good beer, cheese or chocolate, isn't it?

Oh, I know that some places you go you'll get a round, pink in the middle burger in som kind of artisan bread bun, but that's not the standard for burgers.

(Anyhow, IMHO the Best Burgers Ever actually come from Dicks Drive thru, on the condition that you are really hungry and drunk. Under other circumstances they are rather suspect.)
posted by Artw at 2:52 PM on January 5, 2009

New goal for the year: start Internet rumor that Jeff Mangum of Neutral Milk Hotel is the son of Black Oak Arkansas singer "Jim Dandy" Mangrum, but changed the spelling of his last name TO THROW PEOPLE OFF.

Hey, didja know Jeff Mangum is "Jim Dandy" Mangrum's SON?! It's TRUE! I read it on the Internet!
posted by BitterOldPunk at 2:52 PM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

Seconding a Hindu wedding as place to find best Indian food. And lots of scotch.
posted by Artw at 3:09 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

The only truly great burgers I've had outside of the US were at a dive bar in Reykjavík. And those were great mostly because of the toppings, the burgers themselves were kind of thin.

I'm not saying all American burgers are good. Far from it. I'm just saying that all of the good burgers that I personally have consumed were eaten in the good ol' US of A. I don't know where you live that you have such trouble getting a decent burger. I'm in Boston and I can think of three places within a ten block radius that have good to excellent burgers. Also: "artisan" bread is totally optional. A good ol' plain white bun will suffice if the meat itself is good.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:10 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Let's really, really not do that here, chuckdarwin. Argue over mail if you need to.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:11 PM on January 5, 2009

"The fact that the Spanish word "Americano" means something different than the American English word "American" is not really an issue if you're speaking American English."

The Spanish like terrible coffee too?

"If we go down this path, then we'll soon be saying shit like, well, Molly Hatchet wasn't all that bad, or, Hall & Oates were really kinda soulful, or, Styx had some good ideas."

Molly Hatchet was pretty lame, if I recall. I mean, I can't even remember their biggest hit ("Flirtin' With Disaster"), but I was pretty sure that their tune, "The Creeper," was OK. Hall and Oates had a couple singles that were pretty sweet, though their albums all blew due to the soft rock filler. Styx, man, I dunno, "Lady" was hilarious in Freaks and Geeks, and that "domo domo" bit is pretty fun, even though Mr. Roboto kinda sucks as a song outside of that.

But NO ONE should ever call Slade mediocre, and ever Sweet were pretty, well, sweet for a while.
posted by klangklangston at 3:14 PM on January 5, 2009

Oh, I know that some places you go you'll get a round, pink in the middle burger in som kind of artisan bread bun, but that's not the standard for burgers.

The In N' Out chain in California make the best chain burgers in the country. On the east coast, hit up a Five Guys joint for a close, albeit greasy second-place effort.

Anyhow, IMHO the Best Burgers Ever actually come from Dicks Drive thru

Wow, man. Get yourself to California as soon as possible for a little of the old In N' Out. Dick's make horrible burgers, by comparison.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:14 PM on January 5, 2009

Dick's make horrible burgers

I prefer beef.
posted by found missing at 3:17 PM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

"This is a bit like the argument that America has good beer, cheese or chocolate, isn't it?"

Dude, c'mon, you're in the Pacific Northwest. You're totally taking the piss.
posted by klangklangston at 3:17 PM on January 5, 2009

And those were great mostly because of the toppings, the burgers themselves were kind of thin.

I'll second this. Get some arugula, a thick slice or two of an heirloom tomato. Mix up some mayonnaise with honey mustard. A few rings of red onion. Put it all together with any halfway decent meat and a thick hamburger bun, and that's summertime heaven.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:18 PM on January 5, 2009

But so, so good when you are drunk. And the fries...

The drunk bit is really, really important.
posted by Artw at 3:18 PM on January 5, 2009

I love how they charge 5 cents for a small dollop of ketchup. Vegetables a la carte.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:23 PM on January 5, 2009

The Pacific NW has excellent beer and cheese, and availability of excellent chocolate. None of which are the standard.
posted by Artw at 3:23 PM on January 5, 2009

I thought doner kebabs and cold chips were the preferred food of drunks?
posted by chuckdarwin at 3:24 PM on January 5, 2009

...Canadians are insecure kneejerk-protest hosers

As a Canadian, I am offended by this statement, DROP YOUR GLOVES...well, at least I think I'm offended...maybe not...what does everyone else think? I'll be all excited if a real United States of American responds.
posted by BozoBurgerBonanza at 3:25 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

I've not had any notable successes in that field here.
posted by Artw at 3:26 PM on January 5, 2009

so you're telling me the membership of mefi is basically made up of ex warrior readers...... dez skinn still posts on the yahoo group for them actually, mind you, it was him that put me off drawing when he was on about how you had to be able to draw horses, so its all his fault really.
posted by sgt.serenity at 3:45 PM on January 5, 2009

On the east coast, hit up a Five Guys joint for a close, albeit greasy second-place effort.

Yes indeed, and hand cut fries done in peanut oil.

And really, letting an Englishman troll about food? For shame.
posted by electroboy at 3:54 PM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

Man am I late for this thread...

Look it's really very simple. Americans think they live in the best country in the world, whilst the British know they do. And Americans don't understand irony.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:55 PM on January 5, 2009

I was pretty sure that their tune, "The Creeper," was OK

"Fall Of The Peacemakers," Motherfucker!
posted by jonmc at 4:00 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Actually, it's Canadians who don't know what isn't ironic.
posted by found missing at 4:00 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

"The Pacific NW has excellent beer and cheese, and availability of excellent chocolate. None of which are the standard."

Yeah, yeah, but the statement is that America has 'em, which, by virtue of the Pacific NW (of America) being in America, is true.

Though, looking at it from the perspective of one abroad, I don't doubt that someone in Italy makes good beer, but that pissy Moretti ain't it, and I'd have no compunctions about complaining that Italy doesn't have good beer.
posted by klangklangston at 4:01 PM on January 5, 2009

To be fair, the last 8 years have done wonders for News Bases Satirical Comedey over here.
posted by Artw at 4:01 PM on January 5, 2009

fearfulsymmetry: Americans don't understand irony.

Ahem!

You are clearly not reflecting the latest pronouncement of your thought-commander, Stephen Fry:

"We British like to believe that Americans are ignorant, irony-free and vulgar. I found no more evidence of that than I find of the Dutch, the Italians, the Danes, the Russians, the Australians and - most certainly - the British. I grew more and more ashamed of Britons' exultant and ignorant arrogance in this regard."
posted by Kattullus at 4:05 PM on January 5, 2009

Kattullus does not understand irony.
posted by Artw at 4:06 PM on January 5, 2009

Icelandic has no word for irony.
posted by Kattullus at 4:10 PM on January 5, 2009

I'll admit that Americans, on the whole, do tend to have nicer teeth than us British. Well I suppose there has to be something.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:15 PM on January 5, 2009

Icelandic has no word for irony.

But you do have 13 versions of Santa Claus, each more terrifying than the next, so theres something to be siad for that.
posted by Artw at 4:17 PM on January 5, 2009

irony detector.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:29 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Another irony detector.
posted by jtron at 5:04 PM on January 5, 2009

Actually, it's Canadians who don't know what isn't ironic.

That's just Alanis.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 5:23 PM on January 5, 2009 [4 favorites]

Metatalk: Like rain on a wedding day.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:34 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Styx, man, I dunno, "Lady" was hilarious in Freaks and Geeks,

As was "Come Sail Away."
posted by Bookhouse at 5:43 PM on January 5, 2009

More like:

Metatalk: Like RAAAAAAIIIIIIIIAAAAIIIIIINNNNNN on your wedding day.
posted by donpedro at 6:17 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

There are still areas in the UK (the North) where people say "let's go for a Chinky" instead of "would you like to eat some Chinese food?". I have come to accept that this is mere ignorance and not outright SIEG HEIL racism. Similarly, you do get people who still say "go to the Paki shop and get me some fags" instead of... well, you get the picture.

I'm not saying that all British people from deprived areas are necessarily or even accidentally racist... just that these things were part of my culture shock.

I cannot... and will never be able to... call a person from China, Japan or Korea ORIENTAL (a word that is still commonly used in all parts of the UK). I just cannot do it. It's like calling someone a NEGRO. It's just fucking wrong to say it; something in me won't allow my tongue to make the word.

Some older people here even prefer the term "coloured" to "black". That grates, as well.

"Have you met Leroy?"
"Leroy; the nice coloured man I was telling you about!"
"Oh, LEROY.... the NEGRO."

I just can't get behind that shit. Jon (others) take great pleasure in ridiculing me over my choice of language, but there are some things I can never embrace.

Aluminium? Yes. Fulfil? Gimme. Enrol? Please. Oriental? Fuck you, cuntlips.
posted by chuckdarwin at 7:05 PM on January 5, 2009

I'll admit that Americans, on the whole, do tend to have nicer teeth than us British. Well I suppose there has to be something.

I have never had better dental care and overall dental health than I have since I moved to England. I don't know whether people just don't pay attention to their dentist or what, but my teeth are better than ever. I have had better advice and care than I ever did when my American dentist just saw me as another payment on his Porsche! They even tried to put fillings in my kids BABY TEETH. Fucking vultures.
posted by chuckdarwin at 7:12 PM on January 5, 2009

Oriental? Fuck you, cuntlips.

o_0
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:22 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Wow, man. Get yourself to California as soon as possible for a little of the old In N' Out. Dick's make horrible burgers, by comparison.

Cleverly stated but Wrong.

I lived in Seattle for 24 years and California for 12 and sampled many of each, and the Cheeseburgers, and only the Cheeseburgers, at Dick's are the best thing to eat in all of burgerdom that has "burger" in its' name.

Dick's Cheeseburgers are simple, sublime, and accessible, In N' Out burgers are an exercise in reckless excess.
posted by vapidave at 7:23 PM on January 5, 2009

LOL. Sorry, Jessamyn. I mean TWATlips.
posted by chuckdarwin at 7:25 PM on January 5, 2009

"Similarly, you do get people who still say "go to the Paki shop and get me some fags" instead of... well, you get the picture."

Yeah, instead of "Go to the package store and get me some homosexuals."

"I cannot... and will never be able to... call a person from China, Japan or Korea ORIENTAL (a word that is still commonly used in all parts of the UK)."

I think I've recounted being chided over using Oriental in a presentation on Said before. It was pretty funny.

I did go to school with a guy from China who called all food over here "Chinee" because he said that it was a totally separate identity from Chinese food. I found it charming, but I'm a jerk.
posted by klangklangston at 7:27 PM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

I mean TWATlips.

Seriously, I don't care. You were trying to make a point as to how you, an American living in the UK [or maybe you're naturalized, I don't know] thought certain terms were offensive to you and to drive the point home you decided to make one big swipe at women instead. Save it. It's not funny, it's creepy.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:28 PM on January 5, 2009 [5 favorites]

"Fall Of The Peacemakers," Motherfucker!

Yes! Still one of my favorite songs.

And your drink should be called "fairy jiz"
posted by The Light Fantastic at 7:34 PM on January 5, 2009

i was actually riffing on the cunt/twat debacle way upthread, rather than creep you out...but this thread must be too long to keep in mind for this amount of time
posted by chuckdarwin at 8:01 PM on January 5, 2009

I cannot... and will never be able to... call a person from China, Japan or Korea ORIENTAL (a word that is still commonly used in all parts of the UK). I just cannot do it. It's like calling someone a NEGRO. It's just fucking wrong to say it; something in me won't allow my tongue to make the word.

The great and hilarious irony here, of course, is that in Korea at least, Korean people more often than not refer to the region, to themselves, their culture, their food (and so on, including people and things from other Asian countries) as 'The Orient' and 'Oriental'.

People get some odd and intense ideas about propriety sometimes. Which is, I guess, after all, the point of this thread.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:03 PM on January 5, 2009 [3 favorites]

cortex "The internets are American dude, learn the rules!"

God do I not want to get into another go-around here, but, no.

Are you referring to the comment I made? Because really, I just linked to a scene from the movie Ghostworld that I thought was funny.
and I didn't use the word internets
posted by Sailormom at 8:16 PM on January 5, 2009

A real burger is at least 8oz. (Eff that "quarter pound" crap - that's a measly 4oz!) pink in the middle and juicy enough to make a mess of your hands when you eat it.

Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about.

Also, yes it's absolutely fair to say that Italian beer is crap. I was there a few months ago and an Italian told me that. That and my experience will do for me. On the other hand apart from the wine, they do have this fairly tasty coffee shot in little plastic vials that rather banged me up one evening.
posted by ob at 8:36 PM on January 5, 2009

Hall & Oates were really kinda soulful

I am sad to report that I was shouted down at the coffeeshop trying to refute this point THIS VERY MORNING.
posted by desuetude at 9:24 PM on January 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

chuckdarwin - Oh dear. You're doing it vey, very wrong.
posted by Artw at 9:41 PM on January 5, 2009

yeah, stop being such an utter fanny.
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:13 PM on January 5, 2009

No, that would be "stop fannying around".
posted by Artw at 10:28 PM on January 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

Holy shit, guys. I spend two days being responsible and you make 275 comments? Now what are we fighting about?
posted by Caduceus at 10:31 PM on January 5, 2009

You get homosexuals from a package store? I never knew.

Not that I really needed to know.
posted by Grangousier at 11:05 PM on January 5, 2009

The Oriental thing is partly because of the strong implication in British English that the word Asian refers to those from the Indian sub-continent. We could really use a progressive word to refer to those from countries further East, because at the moment people tend to use Oriental or to just refer to everybody as Chinese, since that's Britain's biggest East Asian demographic. (On government forms asking you to give your ethnicity, the options are 'Chinese' or 'Other')
posted by the latin mouse at 12:11 AM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

_{Options for those from East Asia, I mean. Obviously we also have black, white, etc...}
posted by the latin mouse at 12:13 AM on January 6, 2009

ob: "Also, yes it's absolutely fair to say that Italian beer is crap."

The problem with generalizations is that they are so easily disproven. All you need is to provide one exception.
posted by team lowkey at 12:38 AM on January 6, 2009

(On government forms asking you to give your ethnicity, the options are 'Chinese' or 'Other')

Heh, I'm 'Other White' on UK govt forms. (I suspect most (white) Americans would be, too).

Whereas in New Zealand I'm white/European/Pakeha/New Zealander/some other term that we put in because whatever we put on the form for 'New Zealander of European descent', someone is going to get offended.
posted by Infinite Jest at 2:55 AM on January 6, 2009

Followup on an earlier comment of mine in this thread...

So we went to Wahaca last night and well, it was actually some of the better food we've had here in London. Given that its Mexican food, thats even higher praise, I suppose.

First my qualifications. I am an American born Mexican. I have a lot of family in Mexico and grew up eating the food there. I grew up in San Diego which has decent Mexican food as well. Three different friends of my parents own, respectively, a famous taqueria (Juanita's in Leucadia) an authentic regional restaurant (La Especial in Leucadia) and a chain of Mexican fast food places (Roberto's all over San Diego). I also lived for 10 years in San Francisco, eating burritos and tacos regularly in the Mission district.

So, given all that, Wahaca was...not bad! The pork pibil tacos were my favorite. The pork was juicy and flavorful. Tacos, overall, seemed to be the best bet. The taquitos are really tasty too.

They made a couple missteps though. Our beans were burnt. We told the waitress this and she gave us a "surely you're mistaken!" look which I didn't appreciate. But they were. I know what smoked beans taste like but these were burnt. Anyways, we got a new set of beans which were creamy and delicious.

Another minor comment is the huitlacoche quesadillas. We've eaten huitlacoche (corn fungus) in San Francisco and Mexico city. Its a flavor that takes some getting used to but once you do its a bit addictive. Well, they actually mix their huitlacoche with British mushrooms which completely drowns out the former. Not sure why they do this. We figured either huitlacoche is expensive so they have to dilute it or they figure the British palate isn't ready for the pure huitlacoche experience. Disappointing anyways, at least to us.

Overall, I'd recommend the place and we are planning on going back. This isn't Tex-Mex which smothers everything in low-grade melted cheese. This is an honest attempt to serve real Mexican food, including Nopalitos and Mole - neither of which we tried though.
posted by vacapinta at 3:32 AM on January 6, 2009 [2 favorites]

Glad you enjoyed it vacapinta!
posted by Happy Dave at 3:39 AM on January 6, 2009

Wow, the word "twat" itself doesn't offend me, but "twatLIPS" ?! Geez. I've got my dander up now!

Relevant totally awful story: this jerk I knew in highschool famously got into a debate with a girl over some "intellectual" matter or another. When it was obvious that this was going nowhere, instead of bowing out gracefully, he chose to go for the sucker punch. The verbal coup-de-grace: "Look, if I want any more of your lip, I'll stick my hand in your pants."

I'm pretty sure he's still serving detention for that one.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:59 AM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

Holy shit, guys. I spend two days being responsible and you make 275 comments? Now what are we fighting about?

Absolutely nothing! Say it again!
posted by h00py at 4:27 AM on January 6, 2009 [2 favorites]

Hey this is fun. Can I join in?

ARGHHHH ARGHHHHH GRRRRRR ARGHHHHHH AMERICAN ARGHHHHH BETTER ARGGGHH TEETH RACIST ARGHHHHH GRRRRRRR THE MOST POPULAR BRITISH DISH IS AMERICAN GRRRR *sigh*
posted by seanyboy at 4:42 AM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

Dick's Cheeseburgers are simple, sublime, and accessible, In N' Out burgers are an exercise in reckless excess.

I'm grossly offended by this American tendency to link hamburgers with smegma and copulation. Won't somebody think of the children?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:24 AM on January 6, 2009

Do children think of smegma and copulation?
posted by h00py at 5:31 AM on January 6, 2009

The problem with generalizations is that they are so easily disproven. All you need is to provide one exception.

You've never heard of the exception that proves the rule?
posted by electroboy at 5:37 AM on January 6, 2009

Clearly, team lowkey is the exception that proves that particular generalisation.
posted by Happy Dave at 5:44 AM on January 6, 2009

If I may: The answer to the food debate and the music debate is one and the same: Meat Loaf kicks ass.
posted by kittyprecious at 6:03 AM on January 6, 2009

So we went to Wahaca last night...

That name is hysterical.
posted by smackfu at 6:07 AM on January 6, 2009 [2 favorites]

Thanks for pointing that out, smackfu. I didn't notice it at first. It's like, "Hell, no, I'm not going to go through the Hell of having to constantly correcting people who pronounce the x in Oaxaca. Fuck it. Wahaca it is. Problem bloody well solved then."
posted by miss lynnster at 6:29 AM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

Do androids dream of electric smegma and copulation?
posted by SpiffyRob at 7:26 AM on January 6, 2009

tl;dgaf
posted by mandal at 7:30 AM on January 6, 2009

Wax Acka!
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:34 AM on January 6, 2009

I'm grossly offended by this American tendency to link hamburgers with smegma and copulation. Won't somebody think of the children?

Looks around for the Kid's Menu..
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:37 AM on January 6, 2009

The whole Wahaca thing kinda reminds me of my favorite sushi dive in Little Tokyo, actually... Frying Fish. Ha ha! They can't pronounce Ls!
posted by miss lynnster at 10:43 AM on January 6, 2009

IT'S NOT A KIDS' MENU! IT'S A KIDS' COOKBOOK!
posted by Pronoiac at 11:05 AM on January 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

"You get homosexuals from a package store? I never knew. "

Package store, dude. (May not apply for lesbians.)
posted by klangklangston at 11:08 AM on January 6, 2009

I don't know, klang, I think you've got it backwards, after all lesbians do get their packages from stores.
posted by Kattullus at 12:43 PM on January 6, 2009

Kattullus wrote "Foghat > Skynyrd"

What are you smoking? Nobody ever yells out out "Sloooow riiiiide!" at a concert.

Also, War of 1812? Dude, we took Carleton Island, and we still have it. That's a land acquisition. So we won. TAKE THAT CANADA.

More realistically, we gained some respect from the British, not bad. And Canada gained a sense of national pride, also not bad. And the British largely didn't notice. So, nobody won, but in the end nobody really lost either. Wish more wars were that way.

(and that Toronto "toy soldier" monument is hilarious. The US needs a better sense of humor.)
posted by caution live frogs at 1:25 PM on January 6, 2009

caution: Nobody ever yells out out "Sloooow riiiiide!" at a concert

True, but I never listen to Freebird or Sweet Home Alabama on my own volition, fine songs though they are, but I do put on Slow Ride and I Just Want to Make Love to You every now and again.
posted by Kattullus at 1:31 PM on January 6, 2009

Heh.

Now I want to write a song called "I Just Want to Make Love to You Every Now and Again".
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 1:37 PM on January 6, 2009 [6 favorites]

Wow, posting when I'm half asleep is a bad idea :-(

Also, I'm amazed that I actually managed to offend mefites so easily.
posted by chuckdarwin at 2:38 PM on January 6, 2009

Classy apology, dude.
posted by languagehat at 2:46 PM on January 6, 2009

I usually blame the booze, as in "I'm sorry you haven't drank enough to not be offended, stupid."
posted by electroboy at 3:11 PM on January 6, 2009

Classy apology, dude.

*bows deeply* I am sorry, though. electroboy, if it had been booze, that would be much easier to explain. "I was drunk, see, and that's why I typed the mean words."
posted by chuckdarwin at 6:11 PM on January 6, 2009

THE MOST POPULAR BRITISH DISH IS AMERICAN GRRRR

Since when is Chicken Tikka Masala an American dish?
posted by chuckdarwin at 6:12 PM on January 6, 2009

Similes: I was recently trying to come up with a British analogue to "As American as Apple Pie" (don't lecture me about the European provenance of apple pie, it's a very common saying in the states)... and arrived at these beauties:

As British as Binge Drinking
As British as Beans on Toast
As British as Fish and Chips
As British as the Beeb
As British as a Beefeater
posted by chuckdarwin at 6:27 PM on January 6, 2009

It's never gonna top the winner of the McLean's contest to find a Canadian equivalent to "as American as apple pie."

That winner?

"As Canadian as can be expected, under the circumstances."
posted by Kattullus at 6:41 PM on January 6, 2009 [5 favorites]

ArtW, I don't know if you just want to make noise or if you would like to actually like to eat a real burger. Here's what I recommend around Seattle:

Red Mill

XXX Root Beer - Bring cash.

I'm sure there are plenty of other places around town you can actually find something good though.
posted by P.o.B. at 10:54 AM on January 7, 2009

around Seattle:

The best burger in Seattle (also, the best ~~fries~~ poutine) is at Quinn's. But that is, admittedly, a froufy artisan burger.

For the classic experience, you should head south on I-5 until you hit your first Burgerville (I think the first one you'll hit is in Centralia, so it's a bit of a hike) for a fast-food experience that makes In N Out look like McDonald's.
posted by dersins at 1:22 PM on January 7, 2009

Now that I think about it:

Wibbley's

Burgermaster

Herfy's

I've heard this place is good: Shake-N-Go
posted by P.o.B. at 2:47 PM on January 7, 2009

As British as losing The Ashes?
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:25 PM on January 7, 2009 [3 favorites]

As British as watching former Colonies repeatedly trounce your National teams at sports you invented.
posted by chuckdarwin at 2:55 AM on January 8, 2009 [1 favorite]

As British as losing The Ashes?
Pleased to see the Aussies have got over their prolonged sulk after being pissed all over in the Olympic medals table and are now once again able to muster their usual cocky front. Kind of like wondering why the neighbour's yappy chihuahua has gone all quiet, learning it's down with a bad case of worms, then one day hearing its shrill cacophony again and smiling.
Of course, it's England, not Britain, that you play for the Ashes, so I'm suspecting you're not even a real cricket fan Ubu, you filthy bounder!
posted by Abiezer at 5:43 AM on January 8, 2009

Yeah, well given the way Australia played in this last SA test, I think they have a right to be cocky. I have a sinking feeling I'll be crying into my Pimms at the test this summer. Though getting rid of KP as captain might be the start of something good!

Thanks for the heads up, vacapinta. Last place I tried in London for that kind of food was Taqueria over in Notting Hill, which was kinda OK. Perceptions about spice aside, I'm amazed that in a country that eats so much roasted pork that proper carnitas hasn't taken off like a rocket...

and it's cilantro, mofos, not coriander.
posted by Grrlscout at 5:51 AM on January 8, 2009

The end of the golden age - For years, Australia has been pound-for-pound the greatest sporting nation, winning golds, grand slams and World Cups, taking particular pleasure in crushing England. But cracks have started to show. Here an Aussie explains where it's gone wrong and how failure is affecting the country's psyche
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:06 AM on January 8, 2009

More on Wahaca: Masterchef featured the restaurant on last night's episode (three of the chefs had to cook there under Thomasina Meirs). It's pretty big! They showed a lunch service and it looked very busy.

I want to go at night, though, and strap on the feed bag. Is the one in White City easy to get to (than Covent Garden)? I don't know London worth a damn.
posted by chuckdarwin at 8:37 AM on January 8, 2009

Not really, the one in White City is in a big-ass mall and is an offshoot. The Covent Garden one is five minutes from Charing Cross station (underground and rail), and is the original one.

It's a no-reserve system, you turn up and say 'we'd like a table for two' or whatever, and they say 'come back at 9.30' and you leave your mobile number so they can call you if a table comes free earlier. On busy nights, you queue to leave your name for 15-20 minutes. You might want to try going on a (relatively) quieter night like a Tuesday or something, from experience Fridays and Saturdays are mobbed.
posted by Happy Dave at 8:54 AM on January 8, 2009

We arrived just before 7 on Tuesday night and were seated immediately.

By 7:30 or so, I could see people waiting to get in.
posted by vacapinta at 10:05 AM on January 8, 2009

The Phiney Redmill is actually down the road from me. I'm quite fond of it, but I wouldn't ever stumble over there while drunk.
posted by Artw at 10:24 AM on January 8, 2009

As British as watching former Colonies repeatedly trounce your National teams at sports you invented.

I'd actually that's actually a lot more admirable than declaring yourselves the world champions of games no other fucker actually plays.
posted by Artw at 10:26 AM on January 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

Artw - Lay off Guyball already. And 43-Man Squamish. And Calvinball. And Quidditch.
posted by Pronoiac at 11:55 AM on January 8, 2009

Anybody fancy some racketfoot?
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:59 AM on January 8, 2009

"Now I want to write a song called "I Just Want to Make Love to You Every Now and Again"."

I have this album at home from a band called The Escorts, which was some band formed in a prison in upstate New York. Aside from the funky uptempo numbers, like "All We Need Is Another Chance" and "Disrespect (Can Wreck)", which generally chronicle how young black men end up in prison through ham-handed Stevie Wonder-style narratives (and they're both pretty good), the one ballad I like off there is called "Let's Make Love At Home Sometime," which is bizarre and funny whether or not you know they're all in prison, though for different reasons. If you just took it as a regular soul track, it seems to imply that this dude and his lady (well, and his backup singers and their respective ladies) are having sex all over and he's tired of it, just wanting to make love at home, sometime, baby, just once. If you know they're in prison, it takes on this weirdly plaintive fantasy aspect.

My girlfriend, once again unable to grasp the sublime quality of cheesy music made by felons, hates it.
posted by klangklangston at 12:14 PM on January 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

The Japanese play baseball... I've never understood why the US and Japan don't have an international championship game.
posted by chuckdarwin at 1:23 AM on January 9, 2009

The Japanese play baseball... I've never understood why the US and Japan don't have an international championship game.

I've seen this come up as a subject in at least four different animu. "How can they call it the 'world series' if they don't play us? I'd like to see the Yankees go against the Giants!"
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:28 AM on January 9, 2009

Thanks, Happy Dave!
posted by chuckdarwin at 1:34 AM on January 9, 2009

I've never understood why the US and Japan don't have an international championship game.

There is, actually. Not just Japan and US of course, though including their professional players had always been the sticking point. It's styled on the World Cup so it's only every 4 years.
posted by smackfu at 6:36 AM on January 9, 2009

Well, that was indeed more fun that I thought it would be.

Have a great New Year, one and all...
posted by twoleftfeet at 3:12 AM on January 12, 2009

I guess America doesn't really completely have the concept of the watershed. It seems like you have something, but the actual effect is that boobies and swearing are never okay and disemboweling always is.
posted by Artw at 9:41 AM on January 12, 2009

Yeah but at least the Americans aren't going around blocking Wikipedia images.
posted by vacapinta at 9:46 AM on January 12, 2009

One must be ever vigilant in the ongoing efforts to prevent the British Isles becoming the Pedolph Isles.
posted by Artw at 9:53 AM on January 12, 2009 [3 favorites]

I noticed that the producer of Slumdog Millionaire said "fuck" during his acceptance speech. I guess he didn't get the "we don't curse on TV here" memo!
posted by chuckdarwin at 1:20 AM on January 13, 2009

I guess America doesn't really completely have the concept of the watershed. It seems like you have something, but the actual effect is that boobies and swearing are never okay and disemboweling always is.

Have you seen Gangs of New York? America has always had a hard-on for gratuitous violence. It's something that comes into much sharper focus when viewed from a distance.
posted by chuckdarwin at 1:21 AM on January 13, 2009

I guess he didn't get the "we don't curse on TV here" memo!

Remember that time Halle Berry appeared on Jonathon Ross to say the people who had criticised Catwoman were c***s? Remember how she said it felt freeing to use that word and talked about how cool British television was compared to the censorious American networks. Remember how she just stood there yelling c***s over and over?

Remember how - unbeknownst to her - the Beeb was bleeping it all out anyway?

Ironysterical. That clip will never stop being funny.
posted by the latin mouse at 3:59 PM on January 15, 2009

This sort of nonsense often has brits scratching their heads at the weirdo prudishness of Americans. "OMG, someone said balls a couple of times! On a show running at 11 at night! Think of the children!"

Except...the thing...well...really...Americans don't care. There is a very small, very loud contingent that gets upset about everything and they seem to have their claws deep into our mass media, so things that would otherwise be little blips in our consciousness (like the Janet Jackson nipple thing at Super Bowl Whatever) get blown up into Major News Events of the Century and we get subjected to endless blather against our will.
posted by kittyprecious at 9:51 AM on January 16, 2009

And they would appear to be the people that run your country.
posted by Artw at 9:52 AM on January 16, 2009

Again: very small, very loud.
posted by kittyprecious at 9:56 AM on January 16, 2009

This sort of nonsense often has brits scratching their heads at the weirdo prudishness of Americans. "OMG, someone said balls a couple of times! On a show running at 11 at night! Think of the children!"

"OMG someone left phone messages that they wanted to sleep with someone's granddaughter! On a radio show! Think of the children!" Or is that different somehow? Or is that just a "small, loud contingent that gets upset about everything"? Or is it the "people that run your country"?
posted by smackfu at 6:32 AM on January 17, 2009

That would be a tabloid frenzy, similar to your rolling news freakouts.
posted by Artw at 9:04 AM on January 17, 2009

Yeah, as neither a citizen of the United Kingdor nor of the United States I chuckle when Brits accuse Yanks of being prudes and USians accuse UKers of being stuck-up.
posted by Kattullus at 11:53 AM on January 17, 2009

Wait, are you guys still fighting over this? It's probably not worth it...
posted by miss lynnster at 10:03 PM on January 18, 2009 [1 favorite]

I'm now in a state of perma-rage over the Starbucks Tazo Tea "London Fog" Latte. That shit is fucking racist.
posted by Artw at 9:00 AM on January 19, 2009

I'm now in a state of perma-rage over the Starbucks Tazo Tea "London Fog" Latte. That shit is fucking racist.

Yeah, but is it any good? Seriously, I want to know. The Tazo Green Tea lattes are awesome, but the Vanilla Tea suck. To me, there's a 50/50 chance of suckitude and I want to know which way it's going before I pay $3.50 for a tea beverage that just might suck.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:27 AM on January 19, 2009 [1 favorite]

I'm now in a state of perma-rage over the Starbucks Tazo Tea "London Fog" Latte. That shit is fucking racist.

I'd be more worried that it probably tastes like coal and pea soup.
posted by miss lynnster at 2:02 PM on January 19, 2009

... in which case I can make it at home by heating up a can of split pea soup to the carboniferous stage via the tailpipe of my car. Take that, Starbucks.
posted by oneirodynia at 8:45 PM on January 19, 2009

I thought the London Fog Latte was terrible. It tasted less like they used real tea and more like they used some sort of synthetic engineered syrup intended to "Taste More Like Real Earl Grey!"
posted by pineapple at 7:48 AM on January 20, 2009 [1 favorite]

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