Voting on Metafilter Projects? April 10, 2006 11:08 AM Subscribe
Now that the contest is over, what is the point of having voting on Metafilter Projects? Anyone who wants to post the project to the front page can do so—no matter how many votes there are—and in most cases, having comments there instead of voting could provide the poster with valuable criticism and advice.
Is it just the worry that people will write mean things about the projects?
Is it just the worry that people will write mean things about the projects?
I'd love comments as most here. And don't see the point of voting really. Matt?
posted by keijo at 11:25 AM on April 10, 2006
posted by keijo at 11:25 AM on April 10, 2006
I want my free iPod, dammit!
How many friends do I have to sign up to MeFi to get it again? I can't remember.
posted by Eideteker at 11:27 AM on April 10, 2006
How many friends do I have to sign up to MeFi to get it again? I can't remember.
posted by Eideteker at 11:27 AM on April 10, 2006
I too would enjoy project comments.
posted by boo_radley at 11:30 AM on April 10, 2006
posted by boo_radley at 11:30 AM on April 10, 2006
I'd love comments as most here. And don't see the point of voting really. Matt?
Haa! You people have been inflicting your metafilter project-stuffs on us plebeians for how long now? And you don't even know how the site is supposed to work!
I knew you kids were wastin' your time, tinkering around in the basement with your projects. Mow the lawn!
posted by Baby_Balrog at 11:35 AM on April 10, 2006
Haa! You people have been inflicting your metafilter project-stuffs on us plebeians for how long now? And you don't even know how the site is supposed to work!
I knew you kids were wastin' your time, tinkering around in the basement with your projects. Mow the lawn!
posted by Baby_Balrog at 11:35 AM on April 10, 2006
I think the voting helps people scanning the page figure out what's worth looking at. I might even add it to metafilter so we can see once and for all how unpopular political posts are with most of the membership.
There are no comments on Projects because I feel if there are comments, the chances a project gets posted to metafilter would approach zero. The whole point of projects for me was to help people announce their projects and promote the good ones up to MetaFilter.
I too, often feel the need to tell the author something, and I have emailed people before to give my comments ("this would be so great if you just added $foo to your project..."), but perhaps some middle option would happen, one where you could submit a comment directly to the author that only they could see.
While it may seem odd to have a section of mefi that doesn't have loads of comments like every other section, having regular open comments on projects is a bad idea in my mind because it would be another additional workload for me and jessamyn to admin and it would reduce the original point of the site which was to get member sites onto MeFi. I'm also working on other new sections of MeFi that won't have comments -- stuff that is highly useful but not really discussion fodder (like job listings).
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:38 AM on April 10, 2006
There are no comments on Projects because I feel if there are comments, the chances a project gets posted to metafilter would approach zero. The whole point of projects for me was to help people announce their projects and promote the good ones up to MetaFilter.
I too, often feel the need to tell the author something, and I have emailed people before to give my comments ("this would be so great if you just added $foo to your project..."), but perhaps some middle option would happen, one where you could submit a comment directly to the author that only they could see.
While it may seem odd to have a section of mefi that doesn't have loads of comments like every other section, having regular open comments on projects is a bad idea in my mind because it would be another additional workload for me and jessamyn to admin and it would reduce the original point of the site which was to get member sites onto MeFi. I'm also working on other new sections of MeFi that won't have comments -- stuff that is highly useful but not really discussion fodder (like job listings).
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:38 AM on April 10, 2006
Matt, that's true of course but there is a high threshold in emailing somebody or FPP'ing on their behalf as opposed to commenting in Projects. Of course I do appreciate the additional administrative work but still it seems like kind of an anomaly. I'm not sure what the midlle ground would be with projects.
posted by keijo at 11:41 AM on April 10, 2006
posted by keijo at 11:41 AM on April 10, 2006
Can we disable commenting on MeTa, and make it votes-only?
posted by Plutor at 11:42 AM on April 10, 2006
posted by Plutor at 11:42 AM on April 10, 2006
The middle ground would be a comment form below the project description, but it would go directly to the project author. Sort of like a suggestion box -- your one chance to leave a comment for them that only they will see.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:43 AM on April 10, 2006
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:43 AM on April 10, 2006
Could you add a [-] vote for projects, at least? (I ask in all seriousness)
posted by boo_radley at 11:44 AM on April 10, 2006
posted by boo_radley at 11:44 AM on April 10, 2006
I think the voting helps people scanning the page figure out what's worth looking at.
The number of comments would serve this function, too.
posted by interrobang at 11:44 AM on April 10, 2006
The number of comments would serve this function, too.
posted by interrobang at 11:44 AM on April 10, 2006
"I might even add it to metafilter so we can see once and for all how unpopular political posts are with most of the membership."
Eh, once again, I think 99% of active users would just skip them, and the 1% (what is that, a hundred or so active users?) of rabid, slathering, foaming-at-the-mouth politicos would cast their votes. Just like the comments in those threads may be 3× what the average post garners, but they're all the same people yammering at each other incessantly (in a manner some people would consider apt for a circle of hell). The hell, I'd vote, but I'm one of those morons who thinks his voice still counts.
On a vaguely unrelated note, just today I was thinking about how nice it would be to have a bumper sticker that says: "I'm an anarchist, and I vote." Maybe I should finally start that t-shirt/bumpersticker store online and post it to projects.
posted by Eideteker at 11:44 AM on April 10, 2006
Eh, once again, I think 99% of active users would just skip them, and the 1% (what is that, a hundred or so active users?) of rabid, slathering, foaming-at-the-mouth politicos would cast their votes. Just like the comments in those threads may be 3× what the average post garners, but they're all the same people yammering at each other incessantly (in a manner some people would consider apt for a circle of hell). The hell, I'd vote, but I'm one of those morons who thinks his voice still counts.
On a vaguely unrelated note, just today I was thinking about how nice it would be to have a bumper sticker that says: "I'm an anarchist, and I vote." Maybe I should finally start that t-shirt/bumpersticker store online and post it to projects.
posted by Eideteker at 11:44 AM on April 10, 2006
I'd definately like to see voting on MeFi posts (and comments and users too) especially if it was Tivo-style (thumbs up and down).
And I'd like to vote for a consistant header on Projects. And auto-posting projects to the front page if it hits a certain threshold (maybe 20 votes?)
posted by blue_beetle at 11:46 AM on April 10, 2006
And I'd like to vote for a consistant header on Projects. And auto-posting projects to the front page if it hits a certain threshold (maybe 20 votes?)
posted by blue_beetle at 11:46 AM on April 10, 2006
I think 99% of active users would just skip them
I haven't run any numbers yet from the database, but I would guess that at least 25% of the active mefi population has voted on something in projects.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:49 AM on April 10, 2006
I haven't run any numbers yet from the database, but I would guess that at least 25% of the active mefi population has voted on something in projects.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:49 AM on April 10, 2006
You could make it a slahsdot karma thing, where you can only vote on threads if you haven't posted in them, and you'ld only have a certain number of votes, which would be randomly distributed every week/month and then you'ld get more when people voted for your posts/comments.
posted by blue_beetle at 11:51 AM on April 10, 2006
posted by blue_beetle at 11:51 AM on April 10, 2006
That's what we need, to be more like slashdot.
posted by puke & cry at 11:54 AM on April 10, 2006
posted by puke & cry at 11:54 AM on April 10, 2006
I just think it's funny that when I posted someone's project earlier today, the post got deleted. If projects is supposed to "feed" the blue, then what's the point of deleting approved projects once they get there?
Anyway, I would really like to see comments on projects (I've said this from the beginning). It only takes one person to move a project to the blue, and I would still do it if I thought a project was intresting.
posted by delmoi at 11:54 AM on April 10, 2006
Anyway, I would really like to see comments on projects (I've said this from the beginning). It only takes one person to move a project to the blue, and I would still do it if I thought a project was intresting.
posted by delmoi at 11:54 AM on April 10, 2006
How about this: you could only comment on a project if you'd voted for it?
posted by interrobang at 11:55 AM on April 10, 2006
posted by interrobang at 11:55 AM on April 10, 2006
You could make it a slahsdot karma thing, where you can only vote on threads if you haven't posted in them, and you'ld only have a certain number of votes, which would be randomly distributed every week/month and then you'ld get more when people voted for your posts/comments.
That would suck. There's no reason why we can't vote and comment, like on Digg.
posted by delmoi at 11:55 AM on April 10, 2006
That would suck. There's no reason why we can't vote and comment, like on Digg.
posted by delmoi at 11:55 AM on April 10, 2006
Yeah, and you could have a correlated index of vote scores, which would set a flag if people voted for certain posters who voted back at them, working through a neural net which would determine the greatest indexing variable, and then setting a limit before voting the next time, unless the coefficient was greater than the baseline which would be determined by the date of the poster's birth...
Man, everybody wants to make things so complicated for Matt.
posted by Bugbread at 11:58 AM on April 10, 2006
Man, everybody wants to make things so complicated for Matt.
posted by Bugbread at 11:58 AM on April 10, 2006
this whole conversation is worthless without a minus vote. Seriously.
posted by boo_radley at 11:58 AM on April 10, 2006
posted by boo_radley at 11:58 AM on April 10, 2006
I just think it's funny that when I posted someone's project earlier today, the post got deleted. If projects is supposed to "feed" the blue, then what's the point of deleting approved projects once they get there?
Projects can be posted to the Blue, but being about a project is not all that a good post needs.
posted by mendel at 12:00 PM on April 10, 2006
Projects can be posted to the Blue, but being about a project is not all that a good post needs.
posted by mendel at 12:00 PM on April 10, 2006
I just think it's funny that when I posted someone's project earlier today, the post got deleted. If projects is supposed to "feed" the blue, then what's the point of deleting approved projects once they get there?
Just because something is posted on projects and gets all of 2 votes doesn't mean it doesn't suck.
posted by puke & cry at 12:02 PM on April 10, 2006
Just because something is posted on projects and gets all of 2 votes doesn't mean it doesn't suck.
posted by puke & cry at 12:02 PM on April 10, 2006
or what mendel said.
posted by puke & cry at 12:03 PM on April 10, 2006
posted by puke & cry at 12:03 PM on April 10, 2006
delmoi, there wasn't a single approving comment on that post to mefi. Everyone hated it, flagged it, and said so.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 12:07 PM on April 10, 2006
posted by mathowie (staff) at 12:07 PM on April 10, 2006
I think the voting helps people scanning the page figure out what's worth looking at.
I don't see this as a good thing. The same projects will get more views, and therefore more votes, making the other projects less visible. The idea that the votes constitute some kind of rating is an illusion.
posted by danb at 12:26 PM on April 10, 2006
I don't see this as a good thing. The same projects will get more views, and therefore more votes, making the other projects less visible. The idea that the votes constitute some kind of rating is an illusion.
posted by danb at 12:26 PM on April 10, 2006
I don't voting as such makes people look at another project more or less, there is so little traffic there anyway. I just honestly don't see much of a function for it at the moment.
posted by keijo at 12:31 PM on April 10, 2006
posted by keijo at 12:31 PM on April 10, 2006
delmoi, there wasn't a single approving comment on that post to mefi. Everyone hated it, flagged it, and said so.
Yeah I know. It was annoying though, because it seems their only complaint was that it was hosted on myspace, rather then the content itself, which I thought was pretty cool (if the videos were a little over-edited)
posted by delmoi at 12:43 PM on April 10, 2006
Yeah I know. It was annoying though, because it seems their only complaint was that it was hosted on myspace, rather then the content itself, which I thought was pretty cool (if the videos were a little over-edited)
posted by delmoi at 12:43 PM on April 10, 2006
Not that my opinion matters, but I like the idea of both comments and a [minus] vote on Projects.
I HATE the idea of adding voting to the blue, however, for the same reason that I don't like the (often-proposed) idea of keeping a tally of people's "Best Answers" on AskMe-- it turns the whole thing into too much of a competition.
In other news, the bug-reporting link on the Projects sidebar goes to a closed thread.
posted by dersins at 12:46 PM on April 10, 2006
I HATE the idea of adding voting to the blue, however, for the same reason that I don't like the (often-proposed) idea of keeping a tally of people's "Best Answers" on AskMe-- it turns the whole thing into too much of a competition.
In other news, the bug-reporting link on the Projects sidebar goes to a closed thread.
posted by dersins at 12:46 PM on April 10, 2006
The middle ground would be a comment form below the project description, but it would go directly to the project author. Sort of like a suggestion box -- your one chance to leave a comment for them that only they will see.
posted by mathowie at 11:43 AM PST on April 10 [!]
I think this is a good idea.
posted by dontoine at 1:26 PM on April 10, 2006
posted by mathowie at 11:43 AM PST on April 10 [!]
I think this is a good idea.
posted by dontoine at 1:26 PM on April 10, 2006
I would love a minus vote on projects. This, combined with some kind of auto-post-to-the-blue feature (such as, if a project can sustain more than +20 votes for 24 hours it is auto-posted to the blue), would make Projects even cooler than it already is.
delmoi's post earlier shows why the community is a better judge of projects than single mefites.
I also think comments on Projects would be cool. I posted a project earlier and I would love to have had comments open.
posted by sveskemus at 1:34 PM on April 10, 2006
delmoi's post earlier shows why the community is a better judge of projects than single mefites.
I also think comments on Projects would be cool. I posted a project earlier and I would love to have had comments open.
posted by sveskemus at 1:34 PM on April 10, 2006
I think the voting helps people scanning the page figure out what's worth looking at. I might even add it to metafilter so we can see once and for all how unpopular political posts are with most of the membership.
I don't think that the posts are the problem. The posts are often interesting... and then you get into the thread and (shock) it's ParisParamus left-baiting and some idiot biting it.
And from there it just spirals down.
You know how to fix this. If you need to borrow a set of big brass balls, you can borrow mine.
posted by I Love Tacos at 1:38 PM on April 10, 2006
I don't think that the posts are the problem. The posts are often interesting... and then you get into the thread and (shock) it's ParisParamus left-baiting and some idiot biting it.
And from there it just spirals down.
You know how to fix this. If you need to borrow a set of big brass balls, you can borrow mine.
posted by I Love Tacos at 1:38 PM on April 10, 2006
delmoi's post earlier shows why the community is a better judge of projects than single mefites.
If you want to see a place where the "community" gets to decide what's best take a look at Kuro5hin, and be bored out of your mind.
What makes this place interesting is that individuals get to decide what they like and post it, so we get a wide range of viewpoints and 'interestingness'. I don't find many of the FPPs that interesting, but there's a lot of cool stuff every day, some of which certainly wouldn't get posted if we voted on FPPs or something like that.
posted by delmoi at 1:52 PM on April 10, 2006
If you want to see a place where the "community" gets to decide what's best take a look at Kuro5hin, and be bored out of your mind.
What makes this place interesting is that individuals get to decide what they like and post it, so we get a wide range of viewpoints and 'interestingness'. I don't find many of the FPPs that interesting, but there's a lot of cool stuff every day, some of which certainly wouldn't get posted if we voted on FPPs or something like that.
posted by delmoi at 1:52 PM on April 10, 2006
Perhaps dumb (I'm sure someone will say so), but how about if something gets posted to the blue automatically if it gets X # of votes?
Also, I like the idea of being able to comment to the OPP (original projects poster) without others seeing it.
I also like the ability to remove a vote once it's cast.
On preview, looks like some agree with me with idea #1.
posted by dobbs at 1:56 PM on April 10, 2006
Also, I like the idea of being able to comment to the OPP (original projects poster) without others seeing it.
I also like the ability to remove a vote once it's cast.
On preview, looks like some agree with me with idea #1.
posted by dobbs at 1:56 PM on April 10, 2006
Am I the only user who sees Projects as white text on a white background?
posted by Maisie Jay at 1:57 PM on April 10, 2006
posted by Maisie Jay at 1:57 PM on April 10, 2006
You know how to fix this. If you need to borrow a set of big brass balls, you can borrow mine.
Why would he want a pair of shriveled up grape nuts??
posted by Dreamghost at 1:58 PM on April 10, 2006
Why would he want a pair of shriveled up grape nuts??
posted by Dreamghost at 1:58 PM on April 10, 2006
I would certainly appreciate a comment box which went straight to the creator. There are some great minds attached to some lazy people on MetaFilter and it would make it that much easier for thme to shoot off a comment about what they liked (or more likely disliked).
posted by Captaintripps at 2:05 PM on April 10, 2006
posted by Captaintripps at 2:05 PM on April 10, 2006
I think the voting helps people scanning the page figure out what's worth looking at. I might even add it to metafilter so we can see once and for all how unpopular political posts are with most of the membership.
I actually think this would or at least could be good. Unlike +/- "karma" type ratings, the votes are nothing but positive feedback and there's really no potential for abuse, since you can see who voted, and the lack of a negative vote would keep petty shitting-on-posts-from-people-I-hate down.
perhaps some middle option would happen, one where you could submit a comment directly to the author that only they could see.
This would be awesome, as long as it's not anonymous -- the poster of the project should see which user is submitting what comment, so as to curtail abuse.
posted by Gator at 2:08 PM on April 10, 2006
I actually think this would or at least could be good. Unlike +/- "karma" type ratings, the votes are nothing but positive feedback and there's really no potential for abuse, since you can see who voted, and the lack of a negative vote would keep petty shitting-on-posts-from-people-I-hate down.
perhaps some middle option would happen, one where you could submit a comment directly to the author that only they could see.
This would be awesome, as long as it's not anonymous -- the poster of the project should see which user is submitting what comment, so as to curtail abuse.
posted by Gator at 2:08 PM on April 10, 2006
I Love Tacos : "I don't think that the posts are the problem. The posts are often interesting... and then you get into the thread and (shock) it's ParisParamus left-baiting and some idiot biting it."
I agree that the posts themselves aren't the problem, but the thread, but I would have phrased it:
"I don't think that the posts are the problem. The posts are often interesting... and then you get into the thread and (shock) it's someone anywhere on the political spectrum saying something stupid, and other people biting."
posted by Bugbread at 2:09 PM on April 10, 2006
I agree that the posts themselves aren't the problem, but the thread, but I would have phrased it:
"I don't think that the posts are the problem. The posts are often interesting... and then you get into the thread and (shock) it's someone anywhere on the political spectrum saying something stupid, and other people biting."
posted by Bugbread at 2:09 PM on April 10, 2006
I♥tacos says, "The posts are often interesting..."
I disagree with your use of the word "often". "On occasion", "intermittently" or "sporadically" I could agree with. But not "often".
What would be interesting is a weekly newsfilter roundup, sort of like flash friday, where the steno-pad wielding, fedora wearing newshounds in the community could post their posts in a single day, perhaps even a single thread.
posted by boo_radley at 2:10 PM on April 10, 2006
I disagree with your use of the word "often". "On occasion", "intermittently" or "sporadically" I could agree with. But not "often".
What would be interesting is a weekly newsfilter roundup, sort of like flash friday, where the steno-pad wielding, fedora wearing newshounds in the community could post their posts in a single day, perhaps even a single thread.
posted by boo_radley at 2:10 PM on April 10, 2006
Here's how I suggest to implement voting:
Each user votes on a scale from 1 to 5.
There is always one initial vote that is set to 3.
The total is divided by total votes + 1.
Here's the formula:
(3 + sum_of_votes) / (count_of_votes + 1)
Example 1: no votes = 3 (0 votes)
Example 2: two people vote 5 = 4.33 (2 votes)
Example 3: ten people vote 5 = 4.81 (10 votes)
posted by Sharcho at 2:17 PM on April 10, 2006
Each user votes on a scale from 1 to 5.
There is always one initial vote that is set to 3.
The total is divided by total votes + 1.
Here's the formula:
(3 + sum_of_votes) / (count_of_votes + 1)
Example 1: no votes = 3 (0 votes)
Example 2: two people vote 5 = 4.33 (2 votes)
Example 3: ten people vote 5 = 4.81 (10 votes)
posted by Sharcho at 2:17 PM on April 10, 2006
The whole point of projects for me was to help people announce their projects and promote the good ones up to MetaFilter.
That's great for the 10% that make it to the blue, but meanwhile the other 90% are just taking up space, serving no useful purpose to anyone. If you think comments would discourage posting, you could make them optional. If you're worried about tangential conversations, you could limit to one comment per member per project.
One advantage of public comments is removing repetition. With private comments, you could easily get fifty people sending the same comment, which may discourage future project postings. With public comments, I can see that someone else already made the same suggestion, so I don't need to make it again.
posted by scottreynen at 2:18 PM on April 10, 2006
That's great for the 10% that make it to the blue, but meanwhile the other 90% are just taking up space, serving no useful purpose to anyone. If you think comments would discourage posting, you could make them optional. If you're worried about tangential conversations, you could limit to one comment per member per project.
One advantage of public comments is removing repetition. With private comments, you could easily get fifty people sending the same comment, which may discourage future project postings. With public comments, I can see that someone else already made the same suggestion, so I don't need to make it again.
posted by scottreynen at 2:18 PM on April 10, 2006
Here's how I suggest to implement voting:
Each user votes on a scale from 1 to 5.
There is always one initial vote that is set to 3.
The total is divided by total votes + 1.
Here's the formula:
(3 + sum_of_votes) / (count_of_votes + 1)
Uh, is there any reason why that complicated system is better then what we have now?
I don't think voting is a very important part of projects anyway. The traffic is so low that it's easy for anyone to keep up with all the projects posted.
posted by delmoi at 2:22 PM on April 10, 2006
That's great for the 10% that make it to the blue, but meanwhile the other 90% are just taking up space, serving no useful purpose to anyone.
I disagree strongly. The other 90% do serve a useful purpose in that they let me see new interesting sites that might not be appropriate as a post to MeFi, but are still cool ideas. They also let people expose their new work to others. Projects isn't a wasteland by any means -- I think there are some valid points here about how to make it better, but I don't think comments and negative votes work towards that.
I'll add the private comments to the creators thing soon.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:34 PM on April 10, 2006
I disagree strongly. The other 90% do serve a useful purpose in that they let me see new interesting sites that might not be appropriate as a post to MeFi, but are still cool ideas. They also let people expose their new work to others. Projects isn't a wasteland by any means -- I think there are some valid points here about how to make it better, but I don't think comments and negative votes work towards that.
I'll add the private comments to the creators thing soon.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:34 PM on April 10, 2006
CaptainTripps: "I would certainly appreciate a comment box which went straight to the Creator."
The world's religions: "Yeah, we're working on that."
posted by matthewr at 2:49 PM on April 10, 2006
The world's religions: "Yeah, we're working on that."
posted by matthewr at 2:49 PM on April 10, 2006
delmoi : "Uh, is there any reason why that complicated system is better then what we have now? "
Judging from pretty much every past recommendation made to Matt: because it's more complicated. Complicated is always better.
posted by Bugbread at 2:58 PM on April 10, 2006
Judging from pretty much every past recommendation made to Matt: because it's more complicated. Complicated is always better.
posted by Bugbread at 2:58 PM on April 10, 2006
If you're worried about tangential conversations, you could limit to one comment per member per project.
One advantage of public comments is removing repetition. With private comments, you could easily get fifty people sending the same comment, which may discourage future project postings.
Yes, I agree with all of this.
Private comments seem like they'd be better than the current situation, but less than ideal.
posted by ludwig_van at 3:00 PM on April 10, 2006
One advantage of public comments is removing repetition. With private comments, you could easily get fifty people sending the same comment, which may discourage future project postings.
Yes, I agree with all of this.
Private comments seem like they'd be better than the current situation, but less than ideal.
posted by ludwig_van at 3:00 PM on April 10, 2006
Not that public comments would necessarily remove repetition, but I agree with the principle there.
posted by ludwig_van at 3:01 PM on April 10, 2006
posted by ludwig_van at 3:01 PM on April 10, 2006
mathowie says,"I'll add the private comments to the creators thing soon."
That really takes away from the public community feel of Metafilter, I think.
posted by boo_radley at 3:08 PM on April 10, 2006
That really takes away from the public community feel of Metafilter, I think.
posted by boo_radley at 3:08 PM on April 10, 2006
boo_radley : "That really takes away from the public community feel of Metafilter, I think."
All of MetaFilter? Or the public community feel of MetaProj? Because, as it is, there are no comments in MetaProj. One can, instead, send an email to someone by looking their addy up in their profile. How will changing one implementation of "no comments" to another implementation of "no comments" take away from the public community feel of MetaFilter?
posted by Bugbread at 3:16 PM on April 10, 2006
All of MetaFilter? Or the public community feel of MetaProj? Because, as it is, there are no comments in MetaProj. One can, instead, send an email to someone by looking their addy up in their profile. How will changing one implementation of "no comments" to another implementation of "no comments" take away from the public community feel of MetaFilter?
posted by Bugbread at 3:16 PM on April 10, 2006
Public comments (and negative votes) give additional disincentives to post to Projects.
Sure, there are those among us with huge brass balls, apparently, but to me, it's intimidating already to post things you've done that you care about in this community.
If Projects was bursting with posts, sure, implement some system to cut down the number of crappy posts with public humiliation. But since it's so slow already, why do anything to prevent potentially cool content from hitting there?
I think there's a huge emotional leap between "I hate the link you posted" and "I hate the website you've been working on for four months."
There are plenty of things I've seen on Projects that, sure, I wouldn't want to see on the blue, but I found them cool/interesting/novel nonetheless. At the least, I can see what everybody else is into, right?
What's the harm of the way it works now? We can't figure out who's winning MetaFilter on a daily basis?
posted by Gucky at 3:20 PM on April 10, 2006
Sure, there are those among us with huge brass balls, apparently, but to me, it's intimidating already to post things you've done that you care about in this community.
If Projects was bursting with posts, sure, implement some system to cut down the number of crappy posts with public humiliation. But since it's so slow already, why do anything to prevent potentially cool content from hitting there?
I think there's a huge emotional leap between "I hate the link you posted" and "I hate the website you've been working on for four months."
There are plenty of things I've seen on Projects that, sure, I wouldn't want to see on the blue, but I found them cool/interesting/novel nonetheless. At the least, I can see what everybody else is into, right?
What's the harm of the way it works now? We can't figure out who's winning MetaFilter on a daily basis?
posted by Gucky at 3:20 PM on April 10, 2006
Durr... how about a check box (only for use on projects) that says: "make this comment private to the poster" for members who decline to publish an e-mail address?
posted by Eideteker at 3:28 PM on April 10, 2006
posted by Eideteker at 3:28 PM on April 10, 2006
One advantage of public comments is removing repetition
i must agree with scottreynen here.
i think the thought of my email inbox filling up with several "you should do this"-type suggestions that posit the same idea is a disincentive to posting to projects.
what if those that don't want the feedback have the ability to turn it off, or to turn it off after a certain point?
posted by Hat Maui at 3:42 PM on April 10, 2006
i must agree with scottreynen here.
i think the thought of my email inbox filling up with several "you should do this"-type suggestions that posit the same idea is a disincentive to posting to projects.
what if those that don't want the feedback have the ability to turn it off, or to turn it off after a certain point?
posted by Hat Maui at 3:42 PM on April 10, 2006
bugbread says, "Or the public community feel of MetaProj?"
Well, that's true, there's no community feeling on MePro right now. I'd like there to be, however. I don't go there frequently because it's just a site listing; URL AND DESCRIPTION over and over and over. The best feedback that I can give to an author where metafilter is concerned is to promote something from projects to the blue. that's it. There's no synergy, no back-and-forth, nothing. That's not community, imo.
posted by boo_radley at 3:52 PM on April 10, 2006
Well, that's true, there's no community feeling on MePro right now. I'd like there to be, however. I don't go there frequently because it's just a site listing; URL AND DESCRIPTION over and over and over. The best feedback that I can give to an author where metafilter is concerned is to promote something from projects to the blue. that's it. There's no synergy, no back-and-forth, nothing. That's not community, imo.
posted by boo_radley at 3:52 PM on April 10, 2006
what if those that don't want the feedback have the ability to turn it off, or to turn it off after a certain point?
Hm, yeah, I like that idea, too. The submitting user could choose whether or not he wanted public comments on his project. I still think one comment per user per project is a good idea - it'd be like voting, only with a comment.
posted by ludwig_van at 4:05 PM on April 10, 2006
Hm, yeah, I like that idea, too. The submitting user could choose whether or not he wanted public comments on his project. I still think one comment per user per project is a good idea - it'd be like voting, only with a comment.
posted by ludwig_van at 4:05 PM on April 10, 2006
boo_radley, the previous alternative to projects was for some stranger to email you and ask you to post their site to metafilter for them. There is no community feeling in that either. You are comparing projects to metatalk when the actual comparison is projects vs. nothing.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:06 PM on April 10, 2006
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:06 PM on April 10, 2006
One advantage of public comments is removing repetition
And sometimes repetition is good. Getting 17 reports of a browser bug lets you know that the problem is worth fixing asap and more widespread than you thought. Getting just one might be ignored or put farther down on the to do list.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:07 PM on April 10, 2006
And sometimes repetition is good. Getting 17 reports of a browser bug lets you know that the problem is worth fixing asap and more widespread than you thought. Getting just one might be ignored or put farther down on the to do list.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:07 PM on April 10, 2006
turn it off after a certain point?
How about I implement the basic private feedback system first, and then see if it actually is a problem that requires a turn off function?
I feel like a lot of discussion here with regards to feature requests rushes to complicate matters and imagine programming for every edge case before they even materialize. Seriously, what's wrong with release early and often (while major changes take me a while here, I implement small fixes on a daily basis) and keeping things simple as possible for as long as possible only until you have to add complication?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:11 PM on April 10, 2006
How about I implement the basic private feedback system first, and then see if it actually is a problem that requires a turn off function?
I feel like a lot of discussion here with regards to feature requests rushes to complicate matters and imagine programming for every edge case before they even materialize. Seriously, what's wrong with release early and often (while major changes take me a while here, I implement small fixes on a daily basis) and keeping things simple as possible for as long as possible only until you have to add complication?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:11 PM on April 10, 2006
"There is no community feeling in that either. You are comparing projects to metatalk when the actual comparison is projects vs. nothing."
That's wrong on two counts. First off, there has to be enough of a community feeling to email someone about your project. You don't do that to strangers and expect anything good to come of it. Second off, that's like saying that if AskMe had no comments, only private messages, that we should shut up because it's better than nothing. The comparison is not between projects and nothing, but rather between projects now and what projects should be in the ideal— a place where more than a few people want to read it often.
posted by klangklangston at 4:32 PM on April 10, 2006
That's wrong on two counts. First off, there has to be enough of a community feeling to email someone about your project. You don't do that to strangers and expect anything good to come of it. Second off, that's like saying that if AskMe had no comments, only private messages, that we should shut up because it's better than nothing. The comparison is not between projects and nothing, but rather between projects now and what projects should be in the ideal— a place where more than a few people want to read it often.
posted by klangklangston at 4:32 PM on April 10, 2006
What makes this place interesting is that individuals get to decide what they like and post it, so we get a wide range of viewpoints and 'interestingness'.
I agree. Moving away from an individualistic process towards any kind of consensus approval for posts would change Mefi for the worse, I suspect.
posted by normy at 4:35 PM on April 10, 2006
I agree. Moving away from an individualistic process towards any kind of consensus approval for posts would change Mefi for the worse, I suspect.
posted by normy at 4:35 PM on April 10, 2006
mathowie : "Seriously, what's wrong with release early and often (while major changes take me a while here, I implement small fixes on a daily basis) and keeping things simple as possible for as long as possible only until you have to add complication?"
That sounds like a good plan to me. You could program an automatic releaser that would implement simple fixes, subject to a vote, and then have that vote scaled logarithmically against an averaged index of votes for other fixes, which could then be vetoed by the poster with the highest vote, provided that that poster had voted on more other people's projects than had received votes his/her self, unless the "don't vote" box was checked.
You might want to hire another programmer to handle the implementation and integration of this "keeping simple" system, because it sounds like it might be fairly complicated.
posted by Bugbread at 4:36 PM on April 10, 2006
That sounds like a good plan to me. You could program an automatic releaser that would implement simple fixes, subject to a vote, and then have that vote scaled logarithmically against an averaged index of votes for other fixes, which could then be vetoed by the poster with the highest vote, provided that that poster had voted on more other people's projects than had received votes his/her self, unless the "don't vote" box was checked.
You might want to hire another programmer to handle the implementation and integration of this "keeping simple" system, because it sounds like it might be fairly complicated.
posted by Bugbread at 4:36 PM on April 10, 2006
klangklangston, what I'm saying is that Projects is a very specialized thing that was built for one thing, something that was requested many, many times -- help members promote their own work. It worked great as a one-way mailing list for several years. I personally posted about several new projects that were sent to the list.
Projects should be a way to help mefites launch their projects and not another chatterbox community. We already have one dedicated to interesting websites (MetaFilter) and duplication of that is unnecessary and creates just another place to talk about interesting websites. I'll add the private comment area for posters and the coolest projects (judged by readers) will be reposted to MetaFilter.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:38 PM on April 10, 2006
Projects should be a way to help mefites launch their projects and not another chatterbox community. We already have one dedicated to interesting websites (MetaFilter) and duplication of that is unnecessary and creates just another place to talk about interesting websites. I'll add the private comment area for posters and the coolest projects (judged by readers) will be reposted to MetaFilter.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:38 PM on April 10, 2006
klangklangston : "The comparison is not between projects and nothing, but rather between projects now and what projects should be in the ideal— a place where more than a few people want to read it often."
Projects was invented in order to provide an outlet for people to link stuff that they themselves worked on, as this is prohibited in the blue. It would serve two purposes: to provide more eyeballs for your page, and, if the page was really good, provide possible subject matter for the blue (provided that other folks posted it). It is satisfying the first goal. If anything needs to be fixed, it would seem to be the second goal. Any discussion about what should or should not be done should be grounded in this.
posted by Bugbread at 4:43 PM on April 10, 2006
Projects was invented in order to provide an outlet for people to link stuff that they themselves worked on, as this is prohibited in the blue. It would serve two purposes: to provide more eyeballs for your page, and, if the page was really good, provide possible subject matter for the blue (provided that other folks posted it). It is satisfying the first goal. If anything needs to be fixed, it would seem to be the second goal. Any discussion about what should or should not be done should be grounded in this.
posted by Bugbread at 4:43 PM on April 10, 2006
The one area that comments would really help, however, is in the not-ready-for-primetime sites that need to get something hammered out before they're FPPed. That's where a comments section would be helpful. I do understand at least one unstated reason to hesitate in that regard— it would take moderation to make sure that comments were essentially constructive criticisms rather than just "JUR SITE SUX0RZ!"
posted by klangklangston at 4:48 PM on April 10, 2006
posted by klangklangston at 4:48 PM on April 10, 2006
a place where more than a few people want to read it often
I've fielded this one several times. I know it's different than other MetaFilter sections, but really, it's not a place to hang out, and was never designed to be. It actually works best as a RSS subscription. Every 2-3 days there are a couple new sites to look at and you can browse them with the rest of your updated feeds. I (and anyone else that really likes one and has something to say about it) repost the best ones to mefi. It's not a destination site and wasn't meant to be. I don't intend to make it a cool place to hang out, but I would like to make it more useful for people posting projects to it (and encourage more projects to be posted to it, so we have more new things to share on MetaFilter proper).
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:49 PM on April 10, 2006
I've fielded this one several times. I know it's different than other MetaFilter sections, but really, it's not a place to hang out, and was never designed to be. It actually works best as a RSS subscription. Every 2-3 days there are a couple new sites to look at and you can browse them with the rest of your updated feeds. I (and anyone else that really likes one and has something to say about it) repost the best ones to mefi. It's not a destination site and wasn't meant to be. I don't intend to make it a cool place to hang out, but I would like to make it more useful for people posting projects to it (and encourage more projects to be posted to it, so we have more new things to share on MetaFilter proper).
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:49 PM on April 10, 2006
The one area that comments would really help, however, is in the not-ready-for-primetime sites that need to get something hammered out before they're FPPed. That's where a comments section would be helpful.
Projects was designed around announcing new sites that are ready for use (feedback to the poster will be useful and help guide their future development).
Comments would make sense on another site for ideas or collaborations between members that are still in the planning stages or just recently started working on their ideas. I haven't built that yet, though people have asked.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:52 PM on April 10, 2006
Projects was designed around announcing new sites that are ready for use (feedback to the poster will be useful and help guide their future development).
Comments would make sense on another site for ideas or collaborations between members that are still in the planning stages or just recently started working on their ideas. I haven't built that yet, though people have asked.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:52 PM on April 10, 2006
klangklangston : "I do understand at least one unstated reason to hesitate in that regard— it would take moderation to make sure that comments were essentially constructive criticisms rather than just 'JUR SITE SUX0RZ!'"
Matt's a diplomatic guy, generally, so I suspect that's why he hasn't up-and-said it, but I totally agree, and if I were him, there's no way I'd enable public comments. People lack perspective when it comes to their own work, and I suspect there's much more dross in MePro than MeFi. Add public comments and you get a shitstorm that even MeTa couldn't hold a candle to. If I had a website, I'd be scared to death of posting it.
Private comments, on the other hand? Sure, I guess there's a MeFite or two who would send a private comment to say "your site is shit", but certainly not many. Remove the audience, and people become much more civil.
posted by Bugbread at 4:52 PM on April 10, 2006
Matt's a diplomatic guy, generally, so I suspect that's why he hasn't up-and-said it, but I totally agree, and if I were him, there's no way I'd enable public comments. People lack perspective when it comes to their own work, and I suspect there's much more dross in MePro than MeFi. Add public comments and you get a shitstorm that even MeTa couldn't hold a candle to. If I had a website, I'd be scared to death of posting it.
Private comments, on the other hand? Sure, I guess there's a MeFite or two who would send a private comment to say "your site is shit", but certainly not many. Remove the audience, and people become much more civil.
posted by Bugbread at 4:52 PM on April 10, 2006
the previous alternative to projects was for some stranger to email you and ask you to post their site to metafilter for them.
Actually, I think the previous alternative to projects was textads.
posted by gsteff at 5:49 PM on April 10, 2006
Actually, I think the previous alternative to projects was textads.
posted by gsteff at 5:49 PM on April 10, 2006
I think private messages for projects would be great. Thank you very much for hosting projects at all, Matt -- as gsteff points out, the prior option was text ads, which is prohibitively expensive for a lot of people. It's a great member benefit.
posted by melissa may at 6:13 PM on April 10, 2006
posted by melissa may at 6:13 PM on April 10, 2006
Matt, I've read and understand your take on comments for Projects. Also, I understand that Projects is NOT another AskMe.
However, I assert that a) 99% of posts on Projects don't meet the criteria for post on the blue. b) Maybe 30 or 40% could be after some revision, commentary and collusion from/among interested mefites. c) it's an almost daily frustration to witness projects posts that are ALMOST ready for prime time and not be able comment and therefore help them over the hurdle.
RE: c) Sure I can e-mail them or whatever, but that's just not true to the classic MetaFilter vibe. Also, much like AskMe, comments on Projects should be pertinent and useful. If it can be done well @ AskMe, it can be done with Projects.
posted by snsranch at 7:04 PM on April 10, 2006
However, I assert that a) 99% of posts on Projects don't meet the criteria for post on the blue. b) Maybe 30 or 40% could be after some revision, commentary and collusion from/among interested mefites. c) it's an almost daily frustration to witness projects posts that are ALMOST ready for prime time and not be able comment and therefore help them over the hurdle.
RE: c) Sure I can e-mail them or whatever, but that's just not true to the classic MetaFilter vibe. Also, much like AskMe, comments on Projects should be pertinent and useful. If it can be done well @ AskMe, it can be done with Projects.
posted by snsranch at 7:04 PM on April 10, 2006
Bugbread said it, but it's worth repeating: "Remove the audience, and people become much more civil."
That's huge. I have written dozens, if not hundreds, of emails to MeFi posters that I wanted to support or just ask for more information. Never, not even once, have I emailed someone to tell them that they were an asshole or their site sucked.
People are usually nice if you give them half a chance. If they aren't nice, there is always the bigass ban hammer. You know, the one right there in your peripheral vision next to the Taser.
posted by cedar at 7:29 PM on April 10, 2006
That's huge. I have written dozens, if not hundreds, of emails to MeFi posters that I wanted to support or just ask for more information. Never, not even once, have I emailed someone to tell them that they were an asshole or their site sucked.
People are usually nice if you give them half a chance. If they aren't nice, there is always the bigass ban hammer. You know, the one right there in your peripheral vision next to the Taser.
posted by cedar at 7:29 PM on April 10, 2006
Never, not even once, have I emailed someone to tell them that they were an asshole
I have. I guess I fail this little "humanity test." :*(
But I wouldn't email someone to tell them their site sucked, or leave comments like that (even if we could).
I actually like voting. It's an opt-in system. Don't like it? Just do nothing. Have something nice to say? Click this little button.
It's like a lame non-ajax imitation of digg that does nothing with the votes :D But something COULD be done with the votes at some point. And anyway the idea is that if you want to talk about it, POST IT TO MEFI WITH THE HANDY LINK PROVIDED.
posted by scarabic at 10:15 PM on April 10, 2006
I have. I guess I fail this little "humanity test." :*(
But I wouldn't email someone to tell them their site sucked, or leave comments like that (even if we could).
I actually like voting. It's an opt-in system. Don't like it? Just do nothing. Have something nice to say? Click this little button.
It's like a lame non-ajax imitation of digg that does nothing with the votes :D But something COULD be done with the votes at some point. And anyway the idea is that if you want to talk about it, POST IT TO MEFI WITH THE HANDY LINK PROVIDED.
posted by scarabic at 10:15 PM on April 10, 2006
klangklangston captures my point of view well enough that I can simply agree with him and not write much more on the subject.
However, mathowie writes, "Projects should be a way to help mefites launch their projects and not another chatterbox community." For that vision commentary (and voting of any sort) become immaterial. I'd forgotten that this incongruous nature of Projects was by design, I suppose. The private comment area and auto-promotion to MeFi are probably the best compromises between a projects poster's insecurity and community feedback.
posted by boo_radley at 4:47 AM on April 11, 2006
However, mathowie writes, "Projects should be a way to help mefites launch their projects and not another chatterbox community." For that vision commentary (and voting of any sort) become immaterial. I'd forgotten that this incongruous nature of Projects was by design, I suppose. The private comment area and auto-promotion to MeFi are probably the best compromises between a projects poster's insecurity and community feedback.
posted by boo_radley at 4:47 AM on April 11, 2006
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posted by dontoine at 11:24 AM on April 10, 2006