You don't have a 'right' to post anywhere December 15, 2004 8:30 AM Subscribe
Sigh. . . [+]
I agree that the question should have been posed in MeTa. I think that the first couple of posts pointing that out were warranted and helpful. But when people start talking about getting out the noob spray and making nasty (and oblique) allusions to MeTa threads, the whole spirit of AskMe is contravened and it's only natural that people get their backs up. I think of it as an excellent way to keep the nasty pedants out of AskMe. I'm completely okay with pedantry; just not the nasty variety.
posted by sid at 8:37 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by sid at 8:37 AM on December 15, 2004
From the AskMetaFilter thread:
Yes, this is best asked in MeTa, but there's a little thing called civility that is usually present in AskMe.
Civility would be to read what Matt has written when you click on Post a new question.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 8:54 AM on December 15, 2004
Yes, this is best asked in MeTa, but there's a little thing called civility that is usually present in AskMe.
Civility would be to read what Matt has written when you click on Post a new question.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 8:54 AM on December 15, 2004
What tinamonster, bondcliff, j.edwards, o2b, werty, et cetera said in the thread in question, and not at all what Steve_at_Linnwood, lazy-ville, Frasermoo, et cetera said.
Honestly, do y'all go around rudely and pedantically correcting everybody in your extra-MeFi life? It's really embarrassing to me, and yes, to answer pants' question, I mostly stay in the green because of it.
AskMe may be the wrong spot for the post, and it may be deleted, but let's face it: if this had been posted on MeTa, pants would have been even more soundly trounced.
You think the newbies make MeFi/MeTa/AskMe suck? Really, do you believe that?
Because I think it's people shitting all over threads, newbie-posted or not, popping up perpetually, predictably, always with the elbow-to-the-ribs and the tsk tsk and the finger swag and the nyeh-nyeh, letting you know just where you strayed, just where you offended them--that make things suck.
What kind of perverted sense of justice or desire for compartmentalization makes people kill the thing that they claim to love, in the name of loving it?
It's making me sad, but there you go. I'm sure somebody will let me know how I fucked up this post, too, because that's how adults act, right? Don't we go around telling other people how they broke the universe and shat in the communal punchbowl all day long?
No?
I hate when people drag Matt into this like he's Our Big Daddy In The Sky, but at the same time I have to admit that I'm kind of surprised this thing is allowed to go on. I know, I know, self-policing and all. But when 18 people pile onto somebody in the attempt to state what one person could have said nicely and succinctly, only to try to craft the best put-down, the best kindergarten nyah-nyeh-na-boo-boo callout, and then somebody else drags it into MeTa, and we're talking about a thread that was obviously going to be deleted anyway . . . how is that self-policing, and how does it make this a better place?
I love MeFi, and all its parts, and I'm not a doomsayer, but I have to admit this has been bothering me quite a bit. Are we all in this together? Why are all these smart people always getting reactionary and trying to make other people look dumb?
posted by littlegreenlights at 8:58 AM on December 15, 2004
Honestly, do y'all go around rudely and pedantically correcting everybody in your extra-MeFi life? It's really embarrassing to me, and yes, to answer pants' question, I mostly stay in the green because of it.
AskMe may be the wrong spot for the post, and it may be deleted, but let's face it: if this had been posted on MeTa, pants would have been even more soundly trounced.
You think the newbies make MeFi/MeTa/AskMe suck? Really, do you believe that?
Because I think it's people shitting all over threads, newbie-posted or not, popping up perpetually, predictably, always with the elbow-to-the-ribs and the tsk tsk and the finger swag and the nyeh-nyeh, letting you know just where you strayed, just where you offended them--that make things suck.
What kind of perverted sense of justice or desire for compartmentalization makes people kill the thing that they claim to love, in the name of loving it?
It's making me sad, but there you go. I'm sure somebody will let me know how I fucked up this post, too, because that's how adults act, right? Don't we go around telling other people how they broke the universe and shat in the communal punchbowl all day long?
No?
I hate when people drag Matt into this like he's Our Big Daddy In The Sky, but at the same time I have to admit that I'm kind of surprised this thing is allowed to go on. I know, I know, self-policing and all. But when 18 people pile onto somebody in the attempt to state what one person could have said nicely and succinctly, only to try to craft the best put-down, the best kindergarten nyah-nyeh-na-boo-boo callout, and then somebody else drags it into MeTa, and we're talking about a thread that was obviously going to be deleted anyway . . . how is that self-policing, and how does it make this a better place?
I love MeFi, and all its parts, and I'm not a doomsayer, but I have to admit this has been bothering me quite a bit. Are we all in this together? Why are all these smart people always getting reactionary and trying to make other people look dumb?
posted by littlegreenlights at 8:58 AM on December 15, 2004
Why are all these smart people always getting reactionary and trying to make other people look dumb?
How do you know you're smart if there aren't dumber people around? Anyway, I personally blame all you other people who aren't exactly like me for making things suck.
posted by dame at 9:05 AM on December 15, 2004
How do you know you're smart if there aren't dumber people around? Anyway, I personally blame all you other people who aren't exactly like me for making things suck.
posted by dame at 9:05 AM on December 15, 2004
But when 18 people pile onto somebody in the attempt to state what one person could have said nicely and succinctly, only to try to craft the best put-down, the best kindergarten nyah-nyeh-na-boo-boo callout, and then somebody else drags it into MeTa, and we're talking about a thread that was obviously going to be deleted anyway . . . how is that self-policing, and how does it make this a better place?
You are right. I am sick of the pile-ons as well. This is not a pile on. What I am trying to say is that it was the wrong place to post it, as it clearly states on the posting page, and that people were basically argung that they had a right to post it there because they thought the "grey" is too "mean". Hence "self-policing."
I am not trying to say that the question was dumb - I stated clearly that I thought it was a good one, but that doesn't make it defencable to post it in the green because it is "nicer."
posted by Quartermass at 9:06 AM on December 15, 2004
You are right. I am sick of the pile-ons as well. This is not a pile on. What I am trying to say is that it was the wrong place to post it, as it clearly states on the posting page, and that people were basically argung that they had a right to post it there because they thought the "grey" is too "mean". Hence "self-policing."
I am not trying to say that the question was dumb - I stated clearly that I thought it was a good one, but that doesn't make it defencable to post it in the green because it is "nicer."
posted by Quartermass at 9:06 AM on December 15, 2004
heh. hanging out exclusively on askmetafilter is like hanging out in kuwait when you could be in iraq bludgeoning prisoners.
posted by angry modem at 9:07 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by angry modem at 9:07 AM on December 15, 2004
d'oh - spell check
posted by Quartermass at 9:08 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by Quartermass at 9:08 AM on December 15, 2004
Honestly, do y'all go around rudely and pedantically correcting everybody in your extra-MeFi life? It's really embarrassing to me, and yes, to answer pants' question, I mostly stay in the green because of it.
If a friend of mine (and I consider Metafilter to be a friendly community) does something stupid, I will rib him about it.
AskMe may be the wrong spot for the post, and it may be deleted, but let's face it: if this had been posted on MeTa, pants would have been even more soundly trounced.
Yes. This is because it is a silly post.
You think the newbies make MeFi/MeTa/AskMe suck? Really, do you believe that?
Well, many of them have no clue about how to behave on metafilter. Posting truly crappy questions, FPPs and metatalk posts is worse than piling on a bad thread. Newbies have made many good posts and many posts that have been mediocre and people haven't piled on those. I don't hate Bosnians, I only hate Bosnians who apparently do not care enough about Metafilter to think about what they are doing.
posted by lazy-ville at 9:09 AM on December 15, 2004
If a friend of mine (and I consider Metafilter to be a friendly community) does something stupid, I will rib him about it.
AskMe may be the wrong spot for the post, and it may be deleted, but let's face it: if this had been posted on MeTa, pants would have been even more soundly trounced.
Yes. This is because it is a silly post.
You think the newbies make MeFi/MeTa/AskMe suck? Really, do you believe that?
Well, many of them have no clue about how to behave on metafilter. Posting truly crappy questions, FPPs and metatalk posts is worse than piling on a bad thread. Newbies have made many good posts and many posts that have been mediocre and people haven't piled on those. I don't hate Bosnians, I only hate Bosnians who apparently do not care enough about Metafilter to think about what they are doing.
posted by lazy-ville at 9:09 AM on December 15, 2004
I really don't think it was a bad question. But yeah, it probably belongs in MeTa. No, I don't think it was necessary for more than one person to point that out.
posted by sid at 9:14 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by sid at 9:14 AM on December 15, 2004
sid: But you thought it was necessary for more than one person to point out that it was not necessary for more than one person to point out that it belongs in MeTa?
posted by lazy-ville at 9:17 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by lazy-ville at 9:17 AM on December 15, 2004
It was a dumb, pointless question with no practical value whose answers could fulfill only the idlest curiosity. It was posted in specific and intentional contravention of our host's rules. If we don't "pile on" crap questions from new users then they won't understand that we take the posting guidelines seriously, the quality of questions will continue to decline, and those of us who read AskMe looking for real needful questions to answer will get frustrated and bored and stop contributing.
posted by nicwolff at 9:23 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by nicwolff at 9:23 AM on December 15, 2004
Speaking of dumb and pointless questions, please delete this one.
posted by iconomy at 9:26 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by iconomy at 9:26 AM on December 15, 2004
But you thought it was necessary for more than one person to point out that it was not necessary for more than one person to point out that it belongs in MeTa?
Yep. MeTa is made for this kind of discussion. AskMe is not.
posted by sid at 9:26 AM on December 15, 2004
Yep. MeTa is made for this kind of discussion. AskMe is not.
posted by sid at 9:26 AM on December 15, 2004
Personally, at this point, I think the biggest problem with the new users isn't the quality of their posts (which is definitely an issue that needs to improve over time), but what it's brought out in the established user group.
Self-policing has always been an important part of the culture around here, and there's always been a (somewhat legitimate) pride in being a veteran, but the influx of new users has really pushed things over the edge into what's often self-righteous arrogance.
The frustrating thing is how self-defeating it is...a lot of legitimate criticism, that would go a long way to helping improve the very problems we're talking about, is just being drowned out by the sheer amount of complaining, and the juvenile venom with which it's being expressed.
You can't bully someone into being smarter.
posted by LairBob at 9:41 AM on December 15, 2004
Self-policing has always been an important part of the culture around here, and there's always been a (somewhat legitimate) pride in being a veteran, but the influx of new users has really pushed things over the edge into what's often self-righteous arrogance.
The frustrating thing is how self-defeating it is...a lot of legitimate criticism, that would go a long way to helping improve the very problems we're talking about, is just being drowned out by the sheer amount of complaining, and the juvenile venom with which it's being expressed.
You can't bully someone into being smarter.
posted by LairBob at 9:41 AM on December 15, 2004
Thank god FireFox can block images from S@L's server.
posted by dash_slot- at 9:43 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by dash_slot- at 9:43 AM on December 15, 2004
Well, many of them have no clue about how to behave on metafilter.
I'd dispute that. Out of a couple thousand new members (give or take), a few people have posted inappropriately. Seems like great odds to me, leading me to believe that most of the new users are thoughtful and sufficiently knowledgeable about the site.
posted by rushmc at 9:58 AM on December 15, 2004
I'd dispute that. Out of a couple thousand new members (give or take), a few people have posted inappropriately. Seems like great odds to me, leading me to believe that most of the new users are thoughtful and sufficiently knowledgeable about the site.
posted by rushmc at 9:58 AM on December 15, 2004
But you thought it was necessary for more than one person to point out that it was not necessary for more than one person to point out that it belongs in MeTa?
Woah, there's something totally fucking Zen about that sentence.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 10:06 AM on December 15, 2004
Woah, there's something totally fucking Zen about that sentence.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 10:06 AM on December 15, 2004
What LairBob said. And rush.
Maybe we could have a moratorium on callouts for a little while? Or -- that all of us who have been here a while can stop adding our 2¢ when it's already been added by someone else?
posted by amberglow at 10:08 AM on December 15, 2004
Maybe we could have a moratorium on callouts for a little while? Or -- that all of us who have been here a while can stop adding our 2¢ when it's already been added by someone else?
posted by amberglow at 10:08 AM on December 15, 2004
[nicwolff] those of us who read AskMe looking for real needful questions to answer will get frustrated and bored and stop contributing.
To me, that's kind of like what is happening with MeFi and MeTa because of the callouts. :(
Also, on preview, if I could see to type, I would say, "What LairBob and rushmc and amberglow said."
The level of personal involvement some people take with the post thirty-eight variations on the same shitty assholic theme routine is nauseating. One callout is fine, and the rest are at least arguably gratuitous . . . but then there are people who hang out in a thread to defend and/or augment their gratuitous callouts, and that's bothersome on a whole new level.
So it's not okay to mess up your first couple of times out, and we have to be harsh and repetitive--otherwise the stupids won't understand, because they're so, you know, stupid . . . but it's okay to act like an ass (and put animated gifs in a thread) and generally increase the level of noise?
I don't understand that at all. Maybe somebody could explain it to me with a potato gun and a bar of soap in a sock, and then, later, somebody could do a PowerPoint presentation explaining it again while somebody else puts live wasps in my anus. The following morning, I could be vigorously rubbed with chunks of concrete and dipped in varsol while my face was pushed into a pile of my own shit during a lecture about civil discourse and personal responsibility to make MeFi a nice place. Then maybe I might get it. :)
I'm down with the callout moratorium idea and/or the "one is enough" idea.
posted by littlegreenlights at 10:15 AM on December 15, 2004
To me, that's kind of like what is happening with MeFi and MeTa because of the callouts. :(
Also, on preview, if I could see to type, I would say, "What LairBob and rushmc and amberglow said."
The level of personal involvement some people take with the post thirty-eight variations on the same shitty assholic theme routine is nauseating. One callout is fine, and the rest are at least arguably gratuitous . . . but then there are people who hang out in a thread to defend and/or augment their gratuitous callouts, and that's bothersome on a whole new level.
So it's not okay to mess up your first couple of times out, and we have to be harsh and repetitive--otherwise the stupids won't understand, because they're so, you know, stupid . . . but it's okay to act like an ass (and put animated gifs in a thread) and generally increase the level of noise?
I don't understand that at all. Maybe somebody could explain it to me with a potato gun and a bar of soap in a sock, and then, later, somebody could do a PowerPoint presentation explaining it again while somebody else puts live wasps in my anus. The following morning, I could be vigorously rubbed with chunks of concrete and dipped in varsol while my face was pushed into a pile of my own shit during a lecture about civil discourse and personal responsibility to make MeFi a nice place. Then maybe I might get it. :)
I'm down with the callout moratorium idea and/or the "one is enough" idea.
posted by littlegreenlights at 10:15 AM on December 15, 2004
all of us who have been here a while can stop adding our 2¢ when it's already been added by someone else?
Herefuckin'here.
posted by dash_slot- at 10:18 AM on December 15, 2004
Herefuckin'here.
posted by dash_slot- at 10:18 AM on December 15, 2004
AskMe may be the wrong spot for the post, and it may be deleted, but let's face it: if this had been posted on MeTa, pants would have been even more soundly trounced.
Do you shit in the kitchen sink when the toilet is plugged?
posted by rocketman at 10:38 AM on December 15, 2004
Do you shit in the kitchen sink when the toilet is plugged?
posted by rocketman at 10:38 AM on December 15, 2004
dash_slot-: amber already said it, no need for you to add your 2¢.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 10:40 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 10:40 AM on December 15, 2004
let's face it: if this had been posted on MeTa, pants would have been even more soundly trounced.
Maybe your next FPP will be better received in the Green, where everybody is nice. Start posting them there.
Man... have you turned your logic around and realized that you have brought the snarling and biting of the Grey *TO* the Green? Why do you *think* the Green is civil? Because this kind of thing isn't posted there.
posted by scarabic at 10:47 AM on December 15, 2004
Maybe your next FPP will be better received in the Green, where everybody is nice. Start posting them there.
Man... have you turned your logic around and realized that you have brought the snarling and biting of the Grey *TO* the Green? Why do you *think* the Green is civil? Because this kind of thing isn't posted there.
posted by scarabic at 10:47 AM on December 15, 2004
Dear lord that AskMe thread iconomy linked to is hilarious. It's like a J. Peterman advertisement. And the poster's nickname makes it even more so.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:48 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:48 AM on December 15, 2004
Honestly, do y'all go around rudely and pedantically correcting everybody in your extra-MeFi life?
as someone reading this in a break between heated requirements analysis and design meetings, i have conclusive evidence that it is normal behaviour for 99% of the people i work with.
posted by andrew cooke at 11:06 AM on December 15, 2004
as someone reading this in a break between heated requirements analysis and design meetings, i have conclusive evidence that it is normal behaviour for 99% of the people i work with.
posted by andrew cooke at 11:06 AM on December 15, 2004
Thank god FireFox can block images from S@L's server.
posted by dash_slot- at 9:43 AM PST on December 15
Scans FF Extensions for one more piece of functionality.
posted by dash_slot- at 11:10 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by dash_slot- at 9:43 AM PST on December 15
Scans FF Extensions for one more piece of functionality.
posted by dash_slot- at 11:10 AM on December 15, 2004
I guess what I'm asking for is not so much a moratorium on callouts, but a moratorium on gratuitously nasty callouts.
posted by sid at 11:22 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by sid at 11:22 AM on December 15, 2004
Dear lord that AskMe thread iconomy linked to is hilarious. It's like a J. Peterman advertisement. And the poster's nickname makes it even more so.
Yeah. It was a spoof based on the poster's username. Matt deleted all of the comments (like mine) which noted that, though. I don't think he got that it was a joke. Or maybe he did. *confused*
posted by iconomy at 11:22 AM on December 15, 2004
Yeah. It was a spoof based on the poster's username. Matt deleted all of the comments (like mine) which noted that, though. I don't think he got that it was a joke. Or maybe he did. *confused*
posted by iconomy at 11:22 AM on December 15, 2004
I generally don't shit in the kitchen sink when the toilet is stopped up, and what we're talking about here, I think, is less about that particular thread and more about the general and prevalent trend toward behaving poorly in the name of saving something that wasn't in danger in the first place. However, if we're going that route, I think this is more like going into the kitchen with some other folks to talk about how fucked up it is that you went into the bathroom to take a shit, and found that there were fourteen people in there taking turns shitting on some guy to punish him for shitting in the bathroom. Have you guys seen what's going on in there? Man!
Some lizard part of my brain has always thought that advances gained by prohibiting others--justifiably so or otherwise--are less desirable than those gained through other means.
That's something worth talking about, and maybe it didn't come out in the right venue, but sometimes babies don't come out the right hole, and sometimes comets crash into planets, and sometimes the acceptance letter goes into the wrong box, and sometimes the wrong leg is amputated, and sometimes way bigger things happen than somebody putting some words on the wrong page on the intarweb.
*sends Matt-signal* Hope us, Daddy In The Sky! Er, I mean, do you have any input? It really sounds like there are people saying it is necessary and desirable to make scores of primitive--however adroit and evolved they may be in their expression--corrective lunges at people in a punishing spirit.
I think some of the people with great contributions to make might be more on the shy/withdrawn/less-confident side, and even though maybe in any given instance, a post might deserve a callout, the really vicious callouts might frighten some of those would-be contributors away.
It's easy to laugh and say it's fun sport hunting newbies, and even easier make fun of those who assume a defensive posture, but you never know who you'll run off--who could have made amazing contributions. In case I'm not being clear, I'm referring not to people who make blatantly awful posts (that's another topic) but to people who think twice about posting in a hostile environment because of how they witnessed someone else being treated. In my experience, your programmers and heavy readers and people with a rich inner dialogue run toward the shy end of the spectrum. Why are they worth less than some maniacs running around waiting breathlessly for the chance to clobber with a redundant witticism? It seems like it's the same dozen or so people over and over again, really ugly, and for no good reason.
posted by littlegreenlights at 12:27 PM on December 15, 2004
Some lizard part of my brain has always thought that advances gained by prohibiting others--justifiably so or otherwise--are less desirable than those gained through other means.
That's something worth talking about, and maybe it didn't come out in the right venue, but sometimes babies don't come out the right hole, and sometimes comets crash into planets, and sometimes the acceptance letter goes into the wrong box, and sometimes the wrong leg is amputated, and sometimes way bigger things happen than somebody putting some words on the wrong page on the intarweb.
*sends Matt-signal* Hope us, Daddy In The Sky! Er, I mean, do you have any input? It really sounds like there are people saying it is necessary and desirable to make scores of primitive--however adroit and evolved they may be in their expression--corrective lunges at people in a punishing spirit.
I think some of the people with great contributions to make might be more on the shy/withdrawn/less-confident side, and even though maybe in any given instance, a post might deserve a callout, the really vicious callouts might frighten some of those would-be contributors away.
It's easy to laugh and say it's fun sport hunting newbies, and even easier make fun of those who assume a defensive posture, but you never know who you'll run off--who could have made amazing contributions. In case I'm not being clear, I'm referring not to people who make blatantly awful posts (that's another topic) but to people who think twice about posting in a hostile environment because of how they witnessed someone else being treated. In my experience, your programmers and heavy readers and people with a rich inner dialogue run toward the shy end of the spectrum. Why are they worth less than some maniacs running around waiting breathlessly for the chance to clobber with a redundant witticism? It seems like it's the same dozen or so people over and over again, really ugly, and for no good reason.
posted by littlegreenlights at 12:27 PM on December 15, 2004
dash_slot-: amber already said it, no need for you to add your 2¢.
Here, here.
posted by mkultra at 2:38 PM on December 15, 2004
Here, here.
posted by mkultra at 2:38 PM on December 15, 2004
Everything that littlegreenlights said.
As a long-time-lurker-newbie who may or may not have anything interesting to say, I wish I could join in more seriously here, but I'm too damn scared I'll turn into one of you people.
posted by eatcherry at 2:42 PM on December 15, 2004
As a long-time-lurker-newbie who may or may not have anything interesting to say, I wish I could join in more seriously here, but I'm too damn scared I'll turn into one of you people.
posted by eatcherry at 2:42 PM on December 15, 2004
eatcherry, I'd like to introduce you to someone.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:55 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:55 PM on December 15, 2004
dash_slot- how ever did you get to be so funny? Or is that a FireFox Extension as well?
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 2:57 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 2:57 PM on December 15, 2004
Three guys go into a website. The first guy posts a thing in the green bit. The second remarks that it is better put in the gray bit. The third guy looks at the other two, then leaves to have sex with a beautiful woman.
posted by nthdegx at 3:02 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by nthdegx at 3:02 PM on December 15, 2004
wwWHOOOOOSSssssh!!
posted by dash_slot- at 3:42 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by dash_slot- at 3:42 PM on December 15, 2004
One of these days MetaFilter is going to have to make up its collective mind. On one side, I hear a collective chorus against posting snark and retorts within crappy threads; on the other side, I hear people decrying bringing so many crappy threads into MetaTalk. When a user needs a spanking (and I loves the spankins!) either we spank the user in the thread, or we spank the user in the gray. Which is it, folks?
posted by squirrel at 4:30 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by squirrel at 4:30 PM on December 15, 2004
Boy, I'm late to this thread. Anyhow, I think that a post explaining that it would be better in MeTa is a [good thing], but once such a post is posted everyone should seriously shut the hell up about it. In the case of that (now-deleted, reconstructing from memory) thread, there were a number of posts not answering the question, and decrying the person for posting in ask.mefi, and two or three (mine included) answering their question.
So howzabout the first person to post a reply (a real reply, not just a spanking) also reminds the person to post such questions in the gray, and then subsequent users can try to answer the question to the best of their ability. Anything wrong with that?
posted by j.edwards at 4:36 PM on December 15, 2004
So howzabout the first person to post a reply (a real reply, not just a spanking) also reminds the person to post such questions in the gray, and then subsequent users can try to answer the question to the best of their ability. Anything wrong with that?
posted by j.edwards at 4:36 PM on December 15, 2004
littlegreenlights, if all it takes is some person sitting in front of a computer acting all alpha-gorilla to scare off a potential poster, maybe that poster doesn't belong here in the first place.
posted by rocketman at 4:40 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by rocketman at 4:40 PM on December 15, 2004
Your 12-people-shitting-in-the-sink metaphor totally lost me, LGL. As did the thing about babies coming out the wrong hole. Are you referring to what is sometimes known as a "poo-child?"
posted by scarabic at 5:02 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by scarabic at 5:02 PM on December 15, 2004
LGL was wrong to post that to AskMe and was wrong in her rationalization of it. Otherwise, though, she's about as right as she can be. There's been about a million people now who've complained about MeFi's culture of viciousness. Isn't the message getting through?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:33 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:33 PM on December 15, 2004
For what it's worth, I didn't make the original AskMe post--that was pants. :) I do appreciate the support otherwise, though.
posted by littlegreenlights at 8:19 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by littlegreenlights at 8:19 PM on December 15, 2004
Oh. Sorry.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:34 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:34 PM on December 15, 2004
What happens to posts when they die? Do they go to post heaven? And where is this heaven? Can they be seen there?
posted by tinamonster at 9:38 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by tinamonster at 9:38 PM on December 15, 2004
all of us who have been here a while can stop adding our 2¢ when it's already been added by someone else?
Nah. The pileons are what really drive the point home!
*slaps littlegreenlights*
Besides, what excuse are we all gonna have to make up without the pile-ons?
posted by namespan at 11:10 PM on December 15, 2004
Nah. The pileons are what really drive the point home!
*slaps littlegreenlights*
Besides, what excuse are we all gonna have to make up without the pile-ons?
posted by namespan at 11:10 PM on December 15, 2004
There's been about a million people now who've complained about MeFi's culture of viciousness.
Oh, fuck off.
No, wait. I meant to say "there is no culture of viciousness at Metafilter, any more than there is in any online community, and much less so than on some other sites where I've spent time. Merely repeating received wisdom to that effect is a little like repeating 'FPP', 'this X, it vibrates?' or using yet another faux-clever variation on [more inside] in AskMe -- it is a bandwagonesque me-too herd mentality thing, and is no more appropriate or desirable (or true) for all the frequency with which it's hauled out and flopped down on the counter. It's a clumsy unclever attempt to deploy tribal belonging-signs, ultimately fruitless and laughable because it marks the desperate-to-belong sign-wielder all the more clearly as outside the tribe, and uncertain of what to do about it."
But then, I'd sound like you, EB. And that'd give me a headache.
Why are all these smart people always getting reactionary and trying to make other people look dumb?
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't try to make anyone look dumb. The truly dumb out themselves without any help whatsoever from anyone else.
And, to be honest, I enjoy nothing better than to pelt them with rocks and garbage when they do. In pretty much every other part of my life -- and everyone else's, I imagine -- we have to deal with the stupid. Make nice, be polite, help them to operate simple machinery without hurting themselves or others, that sort of thing.
Amongst other things, I've always cherished MeFi as a place where one could relax and just be scornful of the dumb (see Bush, George W), because the self-selection process over the years had weeded most of them out of the userbase, and the ones who remained may be dumb, but are probably also kooky and amusing in some way, as well as being persistent. I like them, too.
In my experience, your programmers and heavy readers and people with a rich inner dialogue run toward the shy end of the spectrum.
Look, if the thick fluffy layers of social insulation that posting on a website, anonymously, aren't enough to allow them to poke their turtle heads out of the shell, then all I can say is 'tough shit'. There's a certain point at which you have to stop feeding people by hand and let them sink or swim by their own lights. And if they invite a smack on the ass -- and the truth is that most unpleasant behaviour that happens around here goes unremarked and unpunished by the community -- by acting like a doofus, then they should shut up, bend over, take their licks, then lurk more, until they get the hang of the place. Or leave. There's nothing wrong with that, not a damn thing.
This all sounds awfully harsh and unkind, probably, and I'm neither in real life. I've taken my fair share of ass-paddlings here over the years, almost all of them entirely deserved, and almost never has anyone (at least anyone who remains a part of this community) been vicious. Honest, critical, a bit mean sometimes (and sometimes utterly incorrect in their assessment of me, and other times completely correct), but not vicious, for the most part.
MeFi doesn't have 'a culture' of anything. It is composed of individuals, some of whom are positively saintly, some of whom are complete bastards, and most of whom are somewhere in between. That's as it should be. What is acceptable behaviour is what we choose to accept, and what does occur occurs because individuals do it, and other individuals offer praise, criticism, a smack to the back of the head, or a knee to the groin, or silence.
Christ, sorry about all that. I gotta cut back on the coffee. I really am starting to sound like EB.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:42 PM on December 15, 2004
Oh, fuck off.
No, wait. I meant to say "there is no culture of viciousness at Metafilter, any more than there is in any online community, and much less so than on some other sites where I've spent time. Merely repeating received wisdom to that effect is a little like repeating 'FPP', 'this X, it vibrates?' or using yet another faux-clever variation on [more inside] in AskMe -- it is a bandwagonesque me-too herd mentality thing, and is no more appropriate or desirable (or true) for all the frequency with which it's hauled out and flopped down on the counter. It's a clumsy unclever attempt to deploy tribal belonging-signs, ultimately fruitless and laughable because it marks the desperate-to-belong sign-wielder all the more clearly as outside the tribe, and uncertain of what to do about it."
But then, I'd sound like you, EB. And that'd give me a headache.
Why are all these smart people always getting reactionary and trying to make other people look dumb?
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't try to make anyone look dumb. The truly dumb out themselves without any help whatsoever from anyone else.
And, to be honest, I enjoy nothing better than to pelt them with rocks and garbage when they do. In pretty much every other part of my life -- and everyone else's, I imagine -- we have to deal with the stupid. Make nice, be polite, help them to operate simple machinery without hurting themselves or others, that sort of thing.
Amongst other things, I've always cherished MeFi as a place where one could relax and just be scornful of the dumb (see Bush, George W), because the self-selection process over the years had weeded most of them out of the userbase, and the ones who remained may be dumb, but are probably also kooky and amusing in some way, as well as being persistent. I like them, too.
In my experience, your programmers and heavy readers and people with a rich inner dialogue run toward the shy end of the spectrum.
Look, if the thick fluffy layers of social insulation that posting on a website, anonymously, aren't enough to allow them to poke their turtle heads out of the shell, then all I can say is 'tough shit'. There's a certain point at which you have to stop feeding people by hand and let them sink or swim by their own lights. And if they invite a smack on the ass -- and the truth is that most unpleasant behaviour that happens around here goes unremarked and unpunished by the community -- by acting like a doofus, then they should shut up, bend over, take their licks, then lurk more, until they get the hang of the place. Or leave. There's nothing wrong with that, not a damn thing.
This all sounds awfully harsh and unkind, probably, and I'm neither in real life. I've taken my fair share of ass-paddlings here over the years, almost all of them entirely deserved, and almost never has anyone (at least anyone who remains a part of this community) been vicious. Honest, critical, a bit mean sometimes (and sometimes utterly incorrect in their assessment of me, and other times completely correct), but not vicious, for the most part.
MeFi doesn't have 'a culture' of anything. It is composed of individuals, some of whom are positively saintly, some of whom are complete bastards, and most of whom are somewhere in between. That's as it should be. What is acceptable behaviour is what we choose to accept, and what does occur occurs because individuals do it, and other individuals offer praise, criticism, a smack to the back of the head, or a knee to the groin, or silence.
Christ, sorry about all that. I gotta cut back on the coffee. I really am starting to sound like EB.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:42 PM on December 15, 2004
In my experience, your programmers and heavy readers and people with a rich inner dialogue run toward the shy end of the spectrum.
And those sorts are often the most outrageously annoying, mean-spirited people anywhere on the internet.
But who cares. I think most of the people that act mean here are doing it semi-ironically. I know I certainly don't expect people to take my over-the-top condemnations of newbies as being indicative of what I think of the bunch of them. Metatalk does suck though, lately, and I was glad to see that latest clusterjangle was deleted.
posted by The God Complex at 12:11 AM on December 16, 2004
And those sorts are often the most outrageously annoying, mean-spirited people anywhere on the internet.
But who cares. I think most of the people that act mean here are doing it semi-ironically. I know I certainly don't expect people to take my over-the-top condemnations of newbies as being indicative of what I think of the bunch of them. Metatalk does suck though, lately, and I was glad to see that latest clusterjangle was deleted.
posted by The God Complex at 12:11 AM on December 16, 2004
And, to be honest, I enjoy nothing better than to pelt them with rocks and garbage when they do. In pretty much every other part of my life -- and everyone else's, I imagine -- we have to deal with the stupid. Make nice, be polite, help them to operate simple machinery without hurting themselves or others, that sort of thing.
In other words, power (and anonymity) corrupts, or reveals the unpleasant core of human nature? So if you take the downtrodden and empower them, their first act really will be to trod the next man down in retaliation (or because it's all they've learned)? How sad.
Metatalk does suck though, lately
And so what? MetaTalk is not the product that we show all shiny and with hopes for approval to the world—that's Metafilter. MetaTalk is supposed to be the filthy sewer neath the main structure that keeps everything clean and sorted out above. It's an opt-in place to hash things out, not a place to chat. It can only really "suck" if the issues brought up here are not being resolved in a useful manner, making Metafilter a better site...
Okay, you're right, it sucks.
posted by rushmc at 8:05 AM on December 16, 2004
In other words, power (and anonymity) corrupts, or reveals the unpleasant core of human nature? So if you take the downtrodden and empower them, their first act really will be to trod the next man down in retaliation (or because it's all they've learned)? How sad.
Metatalk does suck though, lately
And so what? MetaTalk is not the product that we show all shiny and with hopes for approval to the world—that's Metafilter. MetaTalk is supposed to be the filthy sewer neath the main structure that keeps everything clean and sorted out above. It's an opt-in place to hash things out, not a place to chat. It can only really "suck" if the issues brought up here are not being resolved in a useful manner, making Metafilter a better site...
Okay, you're right, it sucks.
posted by rushmc at 8:05 AM on December 16, 2004
So if you take the downtrodden and empower them, their first act really will be to trod the next man down in retaliation (or because it's all they've learned)? How sad.
What are you, a twelve year old girl? 'The... world. Oh, it's so sad.' No, rushie dear, what I was saying was that it's nice to have a place where I don't have to feel as beholden to spoonfeed nincompoops, ninnies and mouthbreathers, because there aren't as many around.
Not only the stupid, in fact, but those who can speak my native language fluently. I have a conversation with a fluent native speaker of English, in person, perhaps once every 2 weeks. At Metafilter, I can let fly (too floridly, too often, perhaps) and know that I will be understood. The rest of you who have daily opportunities to speak your own language to other real live humans -- I don't know what you get out of this place.
If it were kids that I had to deal with overmuch in my daily life, then perhaps participation at Metafilter would be as much an escape from that.
So in short, sweeting wilting wallflower rushmc, you can take your implications about my 'corruption' and intimations of the 'unpleasant core of human nature' that my comments so nakedly expose and shove 'em.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:40 PM on December 16, 2004
What are you, a twelve year old girl? 'The... world. Oh, it's so sad.' No, rushie dear, what I was saying was that it's nice to have a place where I don't have to feel as beholden to spoonfeed nincompoops, ninnies and mouthbreathers, because there aren't as many around.
Not only the stupid, in fact, but those who can speak my native language fluently. I have a conversation with a fluent native speaker of English, in person, perhaps once every 2 weeks. At Metafilter, I can let fly (too floridly, too often, perhaps) and know that I will be understood. The rest of you who have daily opportunities to speak your own language to other real live humans -- I don't know what you get out of this place.
If it were kids that I had to deal with overmuch in my daily life, then perhaps participation at Metafilter would be as much an escape from that.
So in short, sweeting wilting wallflower rushmc, you can take your implications about my 'corruption' and intimations of the 'unpleasant core of human nature' that my comments so nakedly expose and shove 'em.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:40 PM on December 16, 2004
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I just want to say that even though some people prefer the civility of the green (myself included) does not mean that members have the right to do whatever they want there in order to avoid the messiness of the blue and grey.
posted by Quartermass at 8:31 AM on December 15, 2004