be nice to n00bs December 14, 2004 10:45 PM Subscribe
Things I learned in kindergarden, or... just be nice.
that was an excellent demonstration you gave in the Cryptic Envelopment thread. too bad matt axed it.
posted by quonsar at 11:12 PM on December 14, 2004
posted by quonsar at 11:12 PM on December 14, 2004
No, no, q... your missing the point. It's all about what I say. My advice is only for other people... that 'setting an example' gibberish... it was nine drinks ago.
Anyway, some stuff is just plain stupid (I'll be the judge of that and will gladly let you know).
posted by cedar at 11:18 PM on December 14, 2004
Anyway, some stuff is just plain stupid (I'll be the judge of that and will gladly let you know).
posted by cedar at 11:18 PM on December 14, 2004
and in that spirit, i'm not even going to point out that this is nothing but an excuse to post yet another googlebomb. i'm gonna let it slide.
posted by quonsar at 11:31 PM on December 14, 2004
posted by quonsar at 11:31 PM on December 14, 2004
I've been saying this for days now...
posted by Quartermass at 11:34 PM on December 14, 2004
posted by Quartermass at 11:34 PM on December 14, 2004
So... Cal Thomas isn't an ignorant asshole?
I'm not seeing a problem here except that the entire thread looks like my server logs.
Nevermind, I see what you mean.
posted by cedar at 11:59 PM on December 14, 2004
I'm not seeing a problem here except that the entire thread looks like my server logs.
Nevermind, I see what you mean.
posted by cedar at 11:59 PM on December 14, 2004
I'm afraid I don't share quonsar's spirit of forgiveness. An op-ed from foxnews.com is hardly "best of the web."
*goes looking for newbie-paddle*
posted by Galvatron at 12:05 AM on December 15, 2004
*goes looking for newbie-paddle*
posted by Galvatron at 12:05 AM on December 15, 2004
Just as the stank of the Bosnian food opens my senses to flavors I never dreamt possible, so does the taste of the paddle thicken my skin and instruct me in the ways of the world.
Just be nice? What is this? Barney's Playhouse? Okay, let's meet the norms of human decency, sure. But if anything, what we need is not less corrective intervention where newbs fuck up, but more positive reenforcement of what the newbs are doing well. There have been a lot of good posts that deserve as much attention as some of the crappy ones. The crappy ones need to be dealt with, and they will be. But perhaps more positive support is required.
But you know, the whippings wouldn't get nearly so bad if the newbs in question would actually keep an open mind about feedback. Some of them say "how am I doing?" but actually mean "you know you love me, right?" and become bitter when disappointed. Meanwhile, some of them are told "you fucking suck" when they should be told "try harder on your next post."
So I guess I more or less agree in spirit, cedar. Still. Something about this callout just sucks. "Just be nice?"
posted by scarabic at 1:33 AM on December 15, 2004
Just be nice? What is this? Barney's Playhouse? Okay, let's meet the norms of human decency, sure. But if anything, what we need is not less corrective intervention where newbs fuck up, but more positive reenforcement of what the newbs are doing well. There have been a lot of good posts that deserve as much attention as some of the crappy ones. The crappy ones need to be dealt with, and they will be. But perhaps more positive support is required.
But you know, the whippings wouldn't get nearly so bad if the newbs in question would actually keep an open mind about feedback. Some of them say "how am I doing?" but actually mean "you know you love me, right?" and become bitter when disappointed. Meanwhile, some of them are told "you fucking suck" when they should be told "try harder on your next post."
So I guess I more or less agree in spirit, cedar. Still. Something about this callout just sucks. "Just be nice?"
posted by scarabic at 1:33 AM on December 15, 2004
I think the oldbies have shown remarkable patience and restraint in their comments to us noobs - at least more than they usually use among themselves. [presents wrist, braces for ruler]
posted by klarck at 5:10 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by klarck at 5:10 AM on December 15, 2004
I would argue that it isn't very nice to show up at a party and immediately start lecturing people and criticizing the canapes, or insist on talking loudly about things that a little listening first would have revealed are taboo subjects in this crowd or have been done to death.
The enormous majority of the newcomers have displayed pleasant manners, waiting to get a feel for the place before posting to the front page and adding a comment here and there when they have something funny or useful to say. And I want to thank them for that.
As to the bores, the willfully ignorant, the combative bastards who take offense at everything and the puppy dogs who have to post in every thread just to prove they can - the more paddling the better, says I.
posted by CunningLinguist at 5:39 AM on December 15, 2004
The enormous majority of the newcomers have displayed pleasant manners, waiting to get a feel for the place before posting to the front page and adding a comment here and there when they have something funny or useful to say. And I want to thank them for that.
As to the bores, the willfully ignorant, the combative bastards who take offense at everything and the puppy dogs who have to post in every thread just to prove they can - the more paddling the better, says I.
posted by CunningLinguist at 5:39 AM on December 15, 2004
Would it kill you to just let something slide?
no, but it might kill metafilter.
posted by glenwood at 5:53 AM on December 15, 2004
no, but it might kill metafilter.
posted by glenwood at 5:53 AM on December 15, 2004
Can we at least continue to beat up on people regardless of user id? Damn near wish that the user number was hidden.
posted by adampsyche at 6:05 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by adampsyche at 6:05 AM on December 15, 2004
Its unfair to say that all of the older metafilter users are whining about what the newbies are doing.
there are only about 10 people who are.
and quonsar is 4 of em.
posted by crunchland at 6:14 AM on December 15, 2004
there are only about 10 people who are.
and quonsar is 4 of em.
posted by crunchland at 6:14 AM on December 15, 2004
To me, of the slamming the nOObs (how about a ban on this word, which I hate?) is a new thing, unique to this group's joining. There was a lot more understanding in the past. The STFUs before were a joke. They don't feel that way now.
Most of the time, when a newbie screws up, it's because they didn't know the rule. It's not intentional, and calling them a piece of crap isn't helping. The onslaught of full-on hardcore criticism all the time for any and all infractions dilutes its effects when it's deserved, and encourages the newbies themselves to act this way.
Recently a lot of these critiques have been newbie on newbie, and from what I read they seem to think it's the Metafilterish way to behave. It's not.
posted by xammerboy at 7:13 AM on December 15, 2004
Most of the time, when a newbie screws up, it's because they didn't know the rule. It's not intentional, and calling them a piece of crap isn't helping. The onslaught of full-on hardcore criticism all the time for any and all infractions dilutes its effects when it's deserved, and encourages the newbies themselves to act this way.
Recently a lot of these critiques have been newbie on newbie, and from what I read they seem to think it's the Metafilterish way to behave. It's not.
posted by xammerboy at 7:13 AM on December 15, 2004
So... Cal Thomas isn't an ignorant asshole?
He may or may not be... that is a shitty fucking post. Three links, one of them is a google bomb, and the other is a search of google for other people who have already google bombed.
CRAPTASTIC!
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 7:14 AM on December 15, 2004
He may or may not be... that is a shitty fucking post. Three links, one of them is a google bomb, and the other is a search of google for other people who have already google bombed.
CRAPTASTIC!
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 7:14 AM on December 15, 2004
the slamming the nOObs . . . is a new thing, unique to this group's joining.
Then you missed a couple of previous mass migrations.
posted by yerfatma at 7:15 AM on December 15, 2004
Then you missed a couple of previous mass migrations.
posted by yerfatma at 7:15 AM on December 15, 2004
I refrained from jumping on the pro-newbie/anti-newbie bandwagons for one reason: as far as I'm concerned, it simply should not matter.
I intend to brutally mock, harangue, and insult the intellectually stunted regardless of gender, race, ideology, sexual orientation, or amount of time spent participating on the site. To the degree that 'being a newbie' overlaps with 'being an idiot' on the big Venn diagram of Metafilter, I'm going to persecute newbies. To the degree that 'being an oldbie' overlaps with 'being an idiot', I'm going to persecute the oldbies.
It really is, and should be, that simple.
posted by Ryvar at 7:17 AM on December 15, 2004
I intend to brutally mock, harangue, and insult the intellectually stunted regardless of gender, race, ideology, sexual orientation, or amount of time spent participating on the site. To the degree that 'being a newbie' overlaps with 'being an idiot' on the big Venn diagram of Metafilter, I'm going to persecute newbies. To the degree that 'being an oldbie' overlaps with 'being an idiot', I'm going to persecute the oldbies.
It really is, and should be, that simple.
posted by Ryvar at 7:17 AM on December 15, 2004
I intend to brutally mock, harangue, and insult the intellectually stunted regardless of gender, race, ideology, sexual orientation, or amount of time spent participating on the site.
Knock yourself out. But you better be good at it, otherwise you're somewhat stunted yourself.
posted by jonmc at 7:18 AM on December 15, 2004
Knock yourself out. But you better be good at it, otherwise you're somewhat stunted yourself.
posted by jonmc at 7:18 AM on December 15, 2004
It's seemed more tongue in cheek to me in the past.
posted by xammerboy at 7:23 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by xammerboy at 7:23 AM on December 15, 2004
Make it new.
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 7:30 AM on December 15, 2004
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 7:30 AM on December 15, 2004
Metafilter: Make it new.
The great thing about Meta/filter/talk/ask is that it IS new, constantly.
posted by kamylyon at 7:51 AM on December 15, 2004
The great thing about Meta/filter/talk/ask is that it IS new, constantly.
posted by kamylyon at 7:51 AM on December 15, 2004
Frankly the self-important n00b bashing is the most discouraging thing I've seen in these parts for a while. It makes me think a lot less of the "elders" who do it, and is far more damaging than any number of bad posts.
But maybe that's paying too much attention to the chuckleheads on both sides. Most new users are great, and most veteran users welcome them in maturely. The trouble is that these two things are pretty quiet, while being a jerk is loud whatever your UID.
posted by freebird at 11:48 AM on December 15, 2004
But maybe that's paying too much attention to the chuckleheads on both sides. Most new users are great, and most veteran users welcome them in maturely. The trouble is that these two things are pretty quiet, while being a jerk is loud whatever your UID.
posted by freebird at 11:48 AM on December 15, 2004
Boy, MetaTalk has really become MetaTiskTisk lately, hasn't it?
posted by me3dia at 2:40 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by me3dia at 2:40 PM on December 15, 2004
Ryvar: And this is constructive and useful? This attitude builds a community, not tears it down? This helps people obviously less educated and less intelligent than you?
posted by loquacious at 2:42 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by loquacious at 2:42 PM on December 15, 2004
less educated and less intelligent than you?
ryvar eats those less educated and less intelligent than him. he's a skinny little fucker, too.
posted by quonsar at 3:46 PM on December 15, 2004
ryvar eats those less educated and less intelligent than him. he's a skinny little fucker, too.
posted by quonsar at 3:46 PM on December 15, 2004
Ryvar annoys me, and Iv'e taken many a jab at him in the past, but I have to say that he doesn't really annoy me that much and he's so piled-on so often lately that I'm sympathetic.
Having said that, however, I think a really good sign that maybe one might need to rethink one's behavior (or personality) is finding oneself often, loudly, proclaiming one's right to ridicule all those people in the world who are stupid. Granted, some people must certainly be smarter than most others, and maybe Ryvar is one of them. Even so, my own experience is that the Peter Principle rules and even if one is exceptional, one will likely find oneself in company where one is no longer exceptional, but in relative terms a dullard. People that are jerks about being smarter than people (and that's assuming they truly are, and it's damn near certain that all those claiming so are not) are just begging the universe to deliver some badly-needed karma.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:42 PM on December 15, 2004
Having said that, however, I think a really good sign that maybe one might need to rethink one's behavior (or personality) is finding oneself often, loudly, proclaiming one's right to ridicule all those people in the world who are stupid. Granted, some people must certainly be smarter than most others, and maybe Ryvar is one of them. Even so, my own experience is that the Peter Principle rules and even if one is exceptional, one will likely find oneself in company where one is no longer exceptional, but in relative terms a dullard. People that are jerks about being smarter than people (and that's assuming they truly are, and it's damn near certain that all those claiming so are not) are just begging the universe to deliver some badly-needed karma.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:42 PM on December 15, 2004
The best part about this thread: My username hasn't come up. Yet.
posted by Doohickie at 9:59 PM on December 15, 2004
posted by Doohickie at 9:59 PM on December 15, 2004
I once took a roadtrip with some other groovy people to go see Billy Bragg play in Seattle. I drank all the way down from the border, as was my wont in those days.
There came a point in the show, when, during a stretch of his always-amusing inter-song patter, he asked, rhetorically, what the answer to the world's problems might be. Something along those lines, anyway.
Drunken Canajun boor that I was, far up in the nosebleed seats (of a not-too-terribly large theatre, thank goodness), I shouted out 'Be nice!' My friends pretended not to know me.
He stopped, tilted his head and scratched it, looked up at me and said his "Be nice? Be nice? Nah, that'll never work."
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:05 PM on December 15, 2004
There came a point in the show, when, during a stretch of his always-amusing inter-song patter, he asked, rhetorically, what the answer to the world's problems might be. Something along those lines, anyway.
Drunken Canajun boor that I was, far up in the nosebleed seats (of a not-too-terribly large theatre, thank goodness), I shouted out 'Be nice!' My friends pretended not to know me.
He stopped, tilted his head and scratched it, looked up at me and said his "Be nice? Be nice? Nah, that'll never work."
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:05 PM on December 15, 2004
Y'know, I've had a registered/donated MeFi account for several years now, and I find it a wonderful tool for learning. I haven't FPP'd yet, but I don't think I'm a noob either. (and yes, I HATE that term too.)
The other day, I thought I had a really interesting FPP to put together. I'd done some research, put together what I felt was interesting text for the links, etc. and was rather proud of it. Did some searching to make sure it hadn't been posted before. It hadn't, I was happy.
And then, a pang of doubt crept in, and I went back to the search function and re-tasked the search with different terms.
Wham. There it was, just a month ago. I hung my head and deleted everything I wrote. Why?
Because I put a decent amount of labor into it, and knew that if I posted it a bunch of people would trash it without looking beyond that little faux pas. Maybe I need thicker skin. Or maybe I need to learn how to search better. But I didn't feel like subjecting myself to abuse with something that I put some effort into. It's a barrier to entry.
I'm just sayin...
posted by TeamBilly at 9:36 AM on December 16, 2004
The other day, I thought I had a really interesting FPP to put together. I'd done some research, put together what I felt was interesting text for the links, etc. and was rather proud of it. Did some searching to make sure it hadn't been posted before. It hadn't, I was happy.
And then, a pang of doubt crept in, and I went back to the search function and re-tasked the search with different terms.
Wham. There it was, just a month ago. I hung my head and deleted everything I wrote. Why?
Because I put a decent amount of labor into it, and knew that if I posted it a bunch of people would trash it without looking beyond that little faux pas. Maybe I need thicker skin. Or maybe I need to learn how to search better. But I didn't feel like subjecting myself to abuse with something that I put some effort into. It's a barrier to entry.
I'm just sayin...
posted by TeamBilly at 9:36 AM on December 16, 2004
So the only thing that kept you from double posting is fear of the trashing you would get? Seems to me that's a desirable outcome.
posted by timeistight at 9:44 AM on December 16, 2004
posted by timeistight at 9:44 AM on December 16, 2004
Fundamentally, yes, timeistight, that is the truth. The problem is that I had done considerably more research than the original post with a good deal of supporting information, as opposed to the one-link post that beat me by several weeks.
But I doubt seriously that anyone would have bothered reading through and looking at the links because it was "double" and automatically invalid, and that's just not....fair. Or something.
I would also like to point out that as Metafilter grows it becomes a little harder to find new stuff that is "worthy" of posting to Metafilter, because it's already been covered...it's Meta, y'know? Or maybe as it grows it raises the bar and only certain people have enough time and inclination to search deeper, further and wider. Hell, I don't know. I like the site. I read it a couple times a day. I'll keep coming back. I'm just pointing out that the one time I thought I had something to contribute to the community I decided not to because of the social dynamics which accompany it.
Going back to my corner now....
posted by TeamBilly at 9:56 AM on December 16, 2004
But I doubt seriously that anyone would have bothered reading through and looking at the links because it was "double" and automatically invalid, and that's just not....fair. Or something.
I would also like to point out that as Metafilter grows it becomes a little harder to find new stuff that is "worthy" of posting to Metafilter, because it's already been covered...it's Meta, y'know? Or maybe as it grows it raises the bar and only certain people have enough time and inclination to search deeper, further and wider. Hell, I don't know. I like the site. I read it a couple times a day. I'll keep coming back. I'm just pointing out that the one time I thought I had something to contribute to the community I decided not to because of the social dynamics which accompany it.
Going back to my corner now....
posted by TeamBilly at 9:56 AM on December 16, 2004
MetaFilter is mean because we don't like doubleposts?
Actually I think you're wrong about how trashed you'd be for that. Many of us have made the mistake in the past, and more often than not, when someone points out a double, they're brief about it. "Double post," or something like that.
You're also wrong about people not reading it. Any time there's a double there's always *someone* who says "well I didn't see it the first time, thanks!"
I'm really sorry that you spent a lot of work for nothing but I don't think you've come to a very good conclusion at the end of it. You can find stuff to post that isn't a double, dood. It happens constantly on the front page.
posted by scarabic at 11:00 AM on December 16, 2004
Actually I think you're wrong about how trashed you'd be for that. Many of us have made the mistake in the past, and more often than not, when someone points out a double, they're brief about it. "Double post," or something like that.
You're also wrong about people not reading it. Any time there's a double there's always *someone* who says "well I didn't see it the first time, thanks!"
I'm really sorry that you spent a lot of work for nothing but I don't think you've come to a very good conclusion at the end of it. You can find stuff to post that isn't a double, dood. It happens constantly on the front page.
posted by scarabic at 11:00 AM on December 16, 2004
I intend to brutally mock, harangue, and insult the intellectually stunted regardless of gender, race, ideology, sexual orientation, or amount of time spent participating on the site. To the degree that 'being a newbie' overlaps with 'being an idiot' on the big Venn diagram of Metafilter, I'm going to persecute newbies. To the degree that 'being an oldbie' overlaps with 'being an idiot', I'm going to persecute the oldbies.
It really is, and should be, that simple.
That is the best of the web, right there. And no, I'm not being sarcastic. I'll add to that-- the easily offended should be. And often.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:45 PM on December 16, 2004
It really is, and should be, that simple.
That is the best of the web, right there. And no, I'm not being sarcastic. I'll add to that-- the easily offended should be. And often.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:45 PM on December 16, 2004
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
Hey, how about a story? A story is always good.
Not so long ago I had a beautiful little house in a not so beautiful little city. I tended the garden and made nice with the neighbors. I even had a picket fence. Then the fucking Bosnians moved in and they had a problem assimilating. They didn't speak the language well and their food smelled funny. My little newstand suddenly carried papers in a language I didn't understand.
Eventually I noticed that they had picket fences too and the funny smelling food was damn tasty. After another year I began to understand the strange language and it dawned on me that rather than being disrespectful when I was babbling, they simply didn't have a clue what I was talking about. I could have moved or ignored them, but it would have been my loss and I'm glad I didn't.
Maybe we would all do well to cut these guys and gals some slack and avoid piling on. Being nice, though not as cool as snark, usually works out much better.
Would it kill you to just let something slide?
posted by cedar at 10:47 PM on December 14, 2004