Antisemitism on MetaFilter and how to reduce it March 26, 2025 9:26 PM Subscribe
How can we create a safer and more respectful space for Jewish MeFites?
importing Brandon's comment from previous thread concerning mod note:
"I recommend avoiding making it personal and please avoid trying to police the thread and arguing with everyone who disagrees with your (general your, not a specific person) point of view."
as this was a mod note pertaining to the issue, I think it's pertinent to reiterate.
posted by clavdivs at 10:23 PM on March 26 [4 favorites]
"I recommend avoiding making it personal and please avoid trying to police the thread and arguing with everyone who disagrees with your (general your, not a specific person) point of view."
as this was a mod note pertaining to the issue, I think it's pertinent to reiterate.
posted by clavdivs at 10:23 PM on March 26 [4 favorites]
Would be helpful to have some reference points or links to relevant discourse on Metafilter to help frame this conversation.
posted by kensington314 at 10:27 PM on March 26 [11 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 10:27 PM on March 26 [11 favorites]
More FPPs about Jewish happiness and Jewish traditions! Otherwise, look, we're fine. Nobody on this site is putting triple-parens around our names or insinuating we control governments. Or if they are, I haven't noticed, so I don't feel unsafe. There are definitely bad things happening in the world, we're being used as excuses to crack down on protests when we would prefer not to be associated with Israel in the slightest, but they're not happening on MetaFilter. Find a different project.
posted by one for the books at 10:51 PM on March 26 [19 favorites]
posted by one for the books at 10:51 PM on March 26 [19 favorites]
I am for the most part fine here, but I wish everyone could decouple support for Israel the political entity from Jewish identity as a baseline assumption. It sucks tremendously but I do have to say the past year and a half of conversation around Israel and Palestine among Americans has forced a lot of people to do this work, and I’ve seen that here on mefi, though I tend to wade into those threads extremely sparingly. As someone who has felt deeply uncomfortable and at times very angry about Israel and my religious upbringing and communities, since I can remember learning what Israel even was around 5 years old, I have finally had some good conversations with people in my real life who have only now been forced to reckon with this dissonance. I recognize that this is extremely privileged of me, and I don’t expect the vast majority of mefites to have been able to do the same in a safe way, or even have a desire to do so.
While I’m splitting hairs I do hope that more people can understand that the term “Judeo-Christian” is crappy and a Christian nationalist dogwhistle. Don’t lump me in with those assholes, even accidentally.
Generally speaking I would like a more nuanced awareness of religions as a whole. There is a good deal of lingering atheist-bro energy here, which, in my experience, is formed from a deeply Christian worldview and is blinkered from many other religious traditions. Like, there are way more Hindus and Buddhists than Jews in the world but they are acknowledged even less often here. (It doesn’t take a philosophy degree to figure out why.) All of them inform people having social questions on AskMe, or making comments on front page posts, or even choosing media to discuss in Fanfare. So sometimes it’s obvious that there is a gap of understanding that is coming from a cultural religious ignorance, but it’s hard to be like “hey you are not qualified to talk about this until you read these source texts and have five conversations with a [insert relevant religious teacher here], come back later.” I suppose I would like it if in general the site culture was one of curiosity about that of which we are ignorant, and not shame. And that this could be applied to religions as easily as we do to technology or nature.
posted by Mizu at 11:24 PM on March 26 [48 favorites]
While I’m splitting hairs I do hope that more people can understand that the term “Judeo-Christian” is crappy and a Christian nationalist dogwhistle. Don’t lump me in with those assholes, even accidentally.
Generally speaking I would like a more nuanced awareness of religions as a whole. There is a good deal of lingering atheist-bro energy here, which, in my experience, is formed from a deeply Christian worldview and is blinkered from many other religious traditions. Like, there are way more Hindus and Buddhists than Jews in the world but they are acknowledged even less often here. (It doesn’t take a philosophy degree to figure out why.) All of them inform people having social questions on AskMe, or making comments on front page posts, or even choosing media to discuss in Fanfare. So sometimes it’s obvious that there is a gap of understanding that is coming from a cultural religious ignorance, but it’s hard to be like “hey you are not qualified to talk about this until you read these source texts and have five conversations with a [insert relevant religious teacher here], come back later.” I suppose I would like it if in general the site culture was one of curiosity about that of which we are ignorant, and not shame. And that this could be applied to religions as easily as we do to technology or nature.
posted by Mizu at 11:24 PM on March 26 [48 favorites]
I do hope that more people can understand that the term “Judeo-Christian” is crappy and a Christian nationalist dogwhistle.
My BFF (a fellow semite, not Jewish) prefers "Abrahamic religions," and the moment I heard her use it first, I left Judeo-Christian for the evangelical creepazoids.
posted by knucklebones at 12:48 AM on March 27 [8 favorites]
My BFF (a fellow semite, not Jewish) prefers "Abrahamic religions," and the moment I heard her use it first, I left Judeo-Christian for the evangelical creepazoids.
posted by knucklebones at 12:48 AM on March 27 [8 favorites]
On “Judeo-Christian”, there’s a fantastic letter by Arielle Aisha Azoulay to Sylvia Wynter that traces the historical roots of the term.
posted by ftrtts at 1:10 AM on March 27 [3 favorites]
posted by ftrtts at 1:10 AM on March 27 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure even "Abrahamic religions" works for most of the same use cases as "Judeo-Christian" as while Judaism, Christianity, and Islam do have the same roots with similar stories (and even Islam acknowledges the Torah and Bible as valid holy books), the ways people from all those religions are treated vary SO WILDLY between regions and countries.
You have Islamic countries like Malaysia that have erased all traces of Judaism and have a blanket ban on anything Israeli supposedly to be pro Palestine (supposedly, because in reality Palestinians and really any Muslims that are not conservative Malaysia don't get as much because they're too "foreign" and "doing Islam wrong") but blames anything vaguely anti Government as "Jewish", and Christians are barely tolerated and acknowledged. You have the conflict between Israel and Palestine, where I have heard at least one person (not on here) say that they "stopped being pro-Palestine because [they] realized they were supporting radical Islam". And you have Christian-dominant countries that don't trust either faith as far as they can throw them.
There should be solidarity, a sense of shared brotherhood, but instead people can't even be in solidarity with people of their own faith, let alone anyone outside.
posted by creatrixtiara at 1:36 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
You have Islamic countries like Malaysia that have erased all traces of Judaism and have a blanket ban on anything Israeli supposedly to be pro Palestine (supposedly, because in reality Palestinians and really any Muslims that are not conservative Malaysia don't get as much because they're too "foreign" and "doing Islam wrong") but blames anything vaguely anti Government as "Jewish", and Christians are barely tolerated and acknowledged. You have the conflict between Israel and Palestine, where I have heard at least one person (not on here) say that they "stopped being pro-Palestine because [they] realized they were supporting radical Islam". And you have Christian-dominant countries that don't trust either faith as far as they can throw them.
There should be solidarity, a sense of shared brotherhood, but instead people can't even be in solidarity with people of their own faith, let alone anyone outside.
posted by creatrixtiara at 1:36 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
(you have to update your priors on Malaysia tho ime; for one thing Perdana Foundation ironically I guess has had Israelis coming in; in the last two years there's a lot of antizionist Jewish and Israeli activists and scholars coming here. However people feel about Rabbi Dovid Weiss, he was being hosted at the International Islamic University, there's been also Ilan Pappé who was here to meet with the Christian Zionists, ironically enough also. Islamofascist antisemitism is definitely extant, do not get me wrong, but in a mirror of Mizu's experience, the current round of genocide has been intensely clarifying. Anyway, another thread.)
posted by cendawanita at 2:26 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 2:26 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
(omg whaaaattttttttttt that's actually fuckin' incredible, thank you for telling me, last i heard were various menteris going "we don't want palestinian refugees here")
posted by creatrixtiara at 2:34 AM on March 27 [3 favorites]
posted by creatrixtiara at 2:34 AM on March 27 [3 favorites]
I am speaking up to object very strongly to this Meta because the very question that makes up the OP is itself antisemitic.
There are plenty of Jews on this website--possibly even a majority of those participating--who not only disagree quite vehemently with the original author of this MeTa, but have themselves been accused by others of being antisemites merely for disagreement on either Israel/Palestine or more localized Jewish issues. There is also a long and nasty history on here of certain Jewish and gentile users "othering" Jewish voices for not adhering to Zionism or their perception of Judaism, as well as attempting to shut them down or remove them from discussions entirely.
To be clear: I don't think the original request was made in good faith, not the least because within the last 48 hours the original user claimed that those that disagreed with them (again, including Jewish users) were "I/P trolls." If the goal is to make this website only a safe space for those that agree with that viewpoint, and largely dependent on a certain level of dedicated support for Israel or Zionism, then that's not helping Jews here or anywhere. It's just another way to put a target on Jews' backs, this time with a healthy assist from other Jews.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:36 AM on March 27 [33 favorites]
There are plenty of Jews on this website--possibly even a majority of those participating--who not only disagree quite vehemently with the original author of this MeTa, but have themselves been accused by others of being antisemites merely for disagreement on either Israel/Palestine or more localized Jewish issues. There is also a long and nasty history on here of certain Jewish and gentile users "othering" Jewish voices for not adhering to Zionism or their perception of Judaism, as well as attempting to shut them down or remove them from discussions entirely.
To be clear: I don't think the original request was made in good faith, not the least because within the last 48 hours the original user claimed that those that disagreed with them (again, including Jewish users) were "I/P trolls." If the goal is to make this website only a safe space for those that agree with that viewpoint, and largely dependent on a certain level of dedicated support for Israel or Zionism, then that's not helping Jews here or anywhere. It's just another way to put a target on Jews' backs, this time with a healthy assist from other Jews.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:36 AM on March 27 [33 favorites]
What the fuck?
posted by Lemkin at 6:22 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 6:22 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
And I say that as a proud Jew who is, uh, here a lot.
posted by Lemkin at 6:23 AM on March 27 [2 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 6:23 AM on March 27 [2 favorites]
I should probably be as clear as I can.
I have never seen any site content even remotely antisemitic - applying the Merriam-Webster definition of “hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group”.
Perhaps someone is “confusing” antisemitism with anti-Zionism?
posted by Lemkin at 6:31 AM on March 27 [5 favorites]
I have never seen any site content even remotely antisemitic - applying the Merriam-Webster definition of “hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group”.
Perhaps someone is “confusing” antisemitism with anti-Zionism?
posted by Lemkin at 6:31 AM on March 27 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Antisemitism is not tolerated on MetaFilter and the moderators want to know if members do see it occurring. Please flag it (a note is helpful) or email us with a llink to the comment/incident.
And while this thread is about antisemitism specifically, please remember this from our Content Policy:
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:49 AM on March 27
And while this thread is about antisemitism specifically, please remember this from our Content Policy:
MetaFilter is an inclusive space. Avoid posting racial slurs or stereotypes; deliberately misgendering/misnaming others; questioning the existence and/or validity of trans identities as well as other racist, misogynist, homophobic, transphobic, ageist, ableist or otherwise hateful speech. This includes making hateful or insensitive statements ironically or sarcastically as well as linking hateful sources (authors or websites).
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:49 AM on March 27
Ah, I see she said yesterday:
posted by Lemkin at 7:04 AM on March 27 [1 favorite]
It doesn’t bother me if the mods thought my post was too fighty. What does is the fact that they refused to communicate about it. Wiser mods might have asked me to rewrite the post. Wiser mods would encourage reasoned debate and respect throughout the site. But these mods don't do that. Instead, they take the easy route on a high horse: First they ignore me, and then they label the post fighty, me fighty, and conveniently dismiss me, the deleted post — and, crucially, the issues motivating it.I’m just going to put that there and people can read it.
posted by Lemkin at 7:04 AM on March 27 [1 favorite]
Wiser mods would encourage reasoned debate
I can't keep up with the MetaTalk threads lately...why would we want 'reasoned debate' about antisemitism?
posted by mittens at 7:11 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
I can't keep up with the MetaTalk threads lately...why would we want 'reasoned debate' about antisemitism?
posted by mittens at 7:11 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
I think this thread gets to at least part of the motivation for this MeTa's existence
edit to say: what knock your socks already posted
posted by ginger.beef at 7:17 AM on March 27 [1 favorite]
edit to say: what knock your socks already posted
posted by ginger.beef at 7:17 AM on March 27 [1 favorite]
why would we want 'reasoned debate' about antisemitism?
Well, I assume they mean reasoned debate on the existence of antisemitism on the site - not on antisemitism itself.
Unfortunately for them, there is no reasoned debate to have on that. There is no antisemitism on MetaFilter. There is only anti-Zionism, which some Zionists wish to suppress by falsely labeling it antisemitism.
The merits of that can be judged by whose company they’re keeping as they do so.
posted by Lemkin at 7:23 AM on March 27 [9 favorites]
Well, I assume they mean reasoned debate on the existence of antisemitism on the site - not on antisemitism itself.
Unfortunately for them, there is no reasoned debate to have on that. There is no antisemitism on MetaFilter. There is only anti-Zionism, which some Zionists wish to suppress by falsely labeling it antisemitism.
The merits of that can be judged by whose company they’re keeping as they do so.
posted by Lemkin at 7:23 AM on March 27 [9 favorites]
The most antisemitic behavior I've seen on this site is the conflation of Judaism (or Jewishness) with Zionism.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:34 AM on March 27 [17 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:34 AM on March 27 [17 favorites]
Haha oh man, I just caught up on that thread where I was implied to be a "big donor" or part of a secret I/P troll network or something and that's why my derailing and dangerously popular comments about [super niche and totally irrelevant organization] the ADL stayed undeleted and getting a bunch of likes, in the thread about a bunch of shitty neocon zionist POVs on antisemitism who constantly cite the ADL or their bunk ass statistics.
I am experiencing *tropes* yall...time to have a serious discussion about antisemitism on metafilter dot com.
posted by windbox at 9:38 AM on March 27 [7 favorites]
I am experiencing *tropes* yall...time to have a serious discussion about antisemitism on metafilter dot com.
posted by windbox at 9:38 AM on March 27 [7 favorites]
How can we create a safer and more respectful space for Jewish MeFites?
By not pulling stunts like this that treat us as objects rather than as humans with agency?
Seriously, if you actually give a shit about the Jewish people here and not just about using us for rhetorical purposes, you will consider the near-universal rejection of this post by actual Jewish people and ask for it to be deleted.
posted by grouse at 9:44 AM on March 27 [16 favorites]
By not pulling stunts like this that treat us as objects rather than as humans with agency?
Seriously, if you actually give a shit about the Jewish people here and not just about using us for rhetorical purposes, you will consider the near-universal rejection of this post by actual Jewish people and ask for it to be deleted.
posted by grouse at 9:44 AM on March 27 [16 favorites]
if you actually give a shit about the Jewish people here and not just about using us for rhetorical purposes, you will consider the near-universal rejection of this post by actual Jewish people and ask for it to be deleted
I'm not clearing my calendar for it.
posted by Lemkin at 10:01 AM on March 27 [1 favorite]
I'm not clearing my calendar for it.
posted by Lemkin at 10:01 AM on March 27 [1 favorite]
The thing that instigated this thread is in bad faith. The person originally asking the question doesn't want a "safer and respectful space for Jewish MeFites", they want a safe space for Zionists where they never have to see an opposing viewpoint.
This was pretty standard for discussions that veered into issues w/r/t Israel/Palestine in the past on this site; calling Israel an apartheid state, calling out the settlements as ethnic cleansing, etc, would see users (including anti-Zionist Jewish users) told they were not allowed to comment on the topic, because site ownership and moderation (in this case, Cortex and restless nomad) were both explicitly Zionist with near zero tolerance of differing opinions.
With changes to site ownership and the mod team, and with Israel very obviously engaging in a campaign of ethnic cleansing/genocide in Gaza (and the West Bank, which gets less attention) since October of 2023, limiting criticism of Israel has become untenable, but that doesn't stop some people from wondering why the tricks that used to work to shut down those discussions don't, anymore.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:07 AM on March 27 [16 favorites]
This was pretty standard for discussions that veered into issues w/r/t Israel/Palestine in the past on this site; calling Israel an apartheid state, calling out the settlements as ethnic cleansing, etc, would see users (including anti-Zionist Jewish users) told they were not allowed to comment on the topic, because site ownership and moderation (in this case, Cortex and restless nomad) were both explicitly Zionist with near zero tolerance of differing opinions.
With changes to site ownership and the mod team, and with Israel very obviously engaging in a campaign of ethnic cleansing/genocide in Gaza (and the West Bank, which gets less attention) since October of 2023, limiting criticism of Israel has become untenable, but that doesn't stop some people from wondering why the tricks that used to work to shut down those discussions don't, anymore.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:07 AM on March 27 [16 favorites]
Count me as another Jew who has not seen a problem here, and who does not agree with this post.
posted by Glinn at 11:36 AM on March 27 [7 favorites]
posted by Glinn at 11:36 AM on March 27 [7 favorites]
I find the framing of the post to be opaque in as far as the request made. it's as if the only answer one could give is be more respectful, don't be anti-Semitic.
I read many comments here along a spectrum that does not agree with the framing, purpose or even the need for it. perhaps I see it this way, that if someone were to make it anti-semitic comment, that would be immediately flagged or met with a rebuke whether one is Jewish or not.
posted by clavdivs at 2:11 PM on March 27 [2 favorites]
I read many comments here along a spectrum that does not agree with the framing, purpose or even the need for it. perhaps I see it this way, that if someone were to make it anti-semitic comment, that would be immediately flagged or met with a rebuke whether one is Jewish or not.
posted by clavdivs at 2:11 PM on March 27 [2 favorites]
yes, and one of the things the very long comment i made that precedes yours argues is that one of the complicated things is that Jewish people also do it because of the ideological apparatus of Zionism in American Jewish life. it is at least partly why so many American Jews experienced the October 7 attacks as deeply personal, regardless of whether they know Israelis or have been to Israel.
Yes, I am aware of that. I am also a Jew (albeit non-practicing) who knows Israelis and has been to Israel. And I am aware that Jews can hold antisemitic beliefs.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:53 PM on March 27 [2 favorites]
Yes, I am aware of that. I am also a Jew (albeit non-practicing) who knows Israelis and has been to Israel. And I am aware that Jews can hold antisemitic beliefs.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:53 PM on March 27 [2 favorites]
And I am aware that Jews can hold antisemitic beliefs.
Right.
posted by Lemkin at 4:11 PM on March 27
Right.
posted by Lemkin at 4:11 PM on March 27
I'm not familiar with all the threads/context that came before this post, but wanted to add my voice to say I do see antisemitism on Metafilter and it concerns me.
posted by EarnestDeer at 5:02 PM on March 27 [1 favorite]
posted by EarnestDeer at 5:02 PM on March 27 [1 favorite]
I do see antisemitism on Metafilter and it concerns me
You flagged it, I assume? And the mod left it standing?
If you can provide a link to a single example, I'll cede the argument.
Cede!
posted by Lemkin at 6:27 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
You flagged it, I assume? And the mod left it standing?
If you can provide a link to a single example, I'll cede the argument.
Cede!
posted by Lemkin at 6:27 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
I have literally never participated in an Israel/Palestine thread on here (I just searched my post history to verify) so I'm not sure where all the accusations against me having a history on this issue are coming from??? Are y'all confusing me with someone else?
I made this post because it seemed to be something people wanted to talk about, given all the comments on the other MetaTalk post, but no one else seemed to feel up for posting something "neutral" enough to make it past the moderation queue.
I have no other agenda here beyond trying to help keep MetaTalk discussions slightly more organized into specific topics.
Honestly I don't spend enough time in MetaFilter threads about topics where antisemitism is likely to appear to have an opinion about whether it is or is not a problem here. But I have seen a HUGE increase in antisemitic comments on Facebook and Reddit over the past few years, so I'm not going to knee-jerk dismiss the idea that it could be increasing in other online spaces as well. If someone claims it's a problem here, I'm willing to hear them out.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:33 PM on March 27 [8 favorites]
I made this post because it seemed to be something people wanted to talk about, given all the comments on the other MetaTalk post, but no one else seemed to feel up for posting something "neutral" enough to make it past the moderation queue.
I have no other agenda here beyond trying to help keep MetaTalk discussions slightly more organized into specific topics.
Honestly I don't spend enough time in MetaFilter threads about topics where antisemitism is likely to appear to have an opinion about whether it is or is not a problem here. But I have seen a HUGE increase in antisemitic comments on Facebook and Reddit over the past few years, so I'm not going to knee-jerk dismiss the idea that it could be increasing in other online spaces as well. If someone claims it's a problem here, I'm willing to hear them out.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:33 PM on March 27 [8 favorites]
Jacqueline, I'm like 99% sure people are confusing you with Violet Blue.
posted by Bugbread at 7:53 PM on March 27 [10 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 7:53 PM on March 27 [10 favorites]
I have no other agenda here beyond trying to help keep MetaTalk discussions slightly more organized into specific topics.
Well, maybe we don't appreciate being seen as an abstract topic that needs organizing. Respectfully, time and time again, various minoritized groups on Metafilter are put under a microscope by outsiders who don't know what they're talking about.
posted by dusty potato at 8:12 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
Well, maybe we don't appreciate being seen as an abstract topic that needs organizing. Respectfully, time and time again, various minoritized groups on Metafilter are put under a microscope by outsiders who don't know what they're talking about.
posted by dusty potato at 8:12 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
dusty potato: "Well, maybe we don't appreciate being seen as an abstract topic that needs organizing. Respectfully, time and time again, various minoritized groups on Metafilter are put under a microscope by outsiders who don't know what they're talking about."
Are you just fighting for fighting's sake here?
VB, someone who feels passionately about the subject (not someone who sees Jewish people as "an abstract topic that needs organizing") tried to post a MeTa about this in early March. The mods didn't post it because they thought it would be too fighty. Then she started derailing a thread about a different topic to discuss this issue. It made for a messy, disorganized thread. A mod recommended posting a separate MeTa to untangle the two threads. Jacqueline posted it with as neutral framing as possible, to avoid the non-posting that happened when VB tried to post it.
That's it. Jacqueline didn't post it because she sees Jews as an abstract topic. She didn't post it because she thinks Jewish people need organizing. She didn't put anyone under a microscope.
Do you get this mad at the mailman if they deliver a letter you don't like?
posted by Bugbread at 8:29 PM on March 27 [13 favorites]
Are you just fighting for fighting's sake here?
VB, someone who feels passionately about the subject (not someone who sees Jewish people as "an abstract topic that needs organizing") tried to post a MeTa about this in early March. The mods didn't post it because they thought it would be too fighty. Then she started derailing a thread about a different topic to discuss this issue. It made for a messy, disorganized thread. A mod recommended posting a separate MeTa to untangle the two threads. Jacqueline posted it with as neutral framing as possible, to avoid the non-posting that happened when VB tried to post it.
That's it. Jacqueline didn't post it because she sees Jews as an abstract topic. She didn't post it because she thinks Jewish people need organizing. She didn't put anyone under a microscope.
Do you get this mad at the mailman if they deliver a letter you don't like?
posted by Bugbread at 8:29 PM on March 27 [13 favorites]
"I do see antisemitism on Metafilter and it concerns me
You flagged it, I assume? And the mod left it standing?
If you can provide a link to a single example, I'll cede the argument.
Cede!
posted by Lemkin at 6:27 PM on March 27 [1 favorite +] [⚑]"
I think this right here is a good example, and reminiscent of what happens when I talk about this issue in my real-life leftie/'radical' circles*:
If I say in those spaces: 'hey racism/white supremacy is a problem, we're all part of the problem and need to do better'
everyone is like 'yes 100% i agree, we are baked in white supremacy and must take on the work of acknowledging and confronting this indoctrination'
If I say 'hey x minority said this is an issue, even though we didn't realize it/mean it that way, i think we should believe them/listen/change'
everyone is like 'yes of course, what hurts is not for us to decide, it's about impact not intent'
If I say 'hey sexism is really insidious here, it shows up in ways/dynamics that are hard to even fully articulate/verbalize, but you can feel them if you're tuned in to it/as a woman it's uncomfortable'
everyone is like 'yes the patriarchy infects everything and we cannot deny it, i validate your experience'
If I say 'hey antisemitism is present in our community in a way that looks different and much more subtle than in right wing circles, but is very real and concerning'
everyone is like 'NUH UH! PROVE IT!' or even 'what do you support GENOCIDE or something!?'
It's exhausting.
And I'm not going to go combing through comments to prove it, or to get in a debate. I think it's enough for me to see it and say it.
I'm not Jewish. And I see that many Jewish members of this site (in this thread) have said here that this doesn't impact them or that they don't agree. I've also seen Jewish members on this site since Oct 7 who've said that they have felt inundated by antisemitism, and that it has driven away other Jewish members, so I don't know whose voices are not being heard.
What I don't see often here is a real concerned or compassionate response to Jewish members who do express this, or a real commitment to making this site comfortable for Jewish members, or a real commitment to exploring more insidious/subtle forms of antisemitism that aren't as easily 'flaggable' in one single comment but do make up an overall environment that feels hostile or unwelcoming.
Antisemitism being weaponized by fascists for fascist agendas does not mean that it also isn't very real, very insidious, and that we aren't all guilty of it.
I think we can do better and am often very disappointed that my communities, IRL or here, don't seem to be on board with that.
(*generalizations. of course it's not always this simple, but this is the general narrative)
posted by EarnestDeer at 8:41 PM on March 27 [12 favorites]
You flagged it, I assume? And the mod left it standing?
If you can provide a link to a single example, I'll cede the argument.
Cede!
posted by Lemkin at 6:27 PM on March 27 [1 favorite +] [⚑]"
I think this right here is a good example, and reminiscent of what happens when I talk about this issue in my real-life leftie/'radical' circles*:
If I say in those spaces: 'hey racism/white supremacy is a problem, we're all part of the problem and need to do better'
everyone is like 'yes 100% i agree, we are baked in white supremacy and must take on the work of acknowledging and confronting this indoctrination'
If I say 'hey x minority said this is an issue, even though we didn't realize it/mean it that way, i think we should believe them/listen/change'
everyone is like 'yes of course, what hurts is not for us to decide, it's about impact not intent'
If I say 'hey sexism is really insidious here, it shows up in ways/dynamics that are hard to even fully articulate/verbalize, but you can feel them if you're tuned in to it/as a woman it's uncomfortable'
everyone is like 'yes the patriarchy infects everything and we cannot deny it, i validate your experience'
If I say 'hey antisemitism is present in our community in a way that looks different and much more subtle than in right wing circles, but is very real and concerning'
everyone is like 'NUH UH! PROVE IT!' or even 'what do you support GENOCIDE or something!?'
It's exhausting.
And I'm not going to go combing through comments to prove it, or to get in a debate. I think it's enough for me to see it and say it.
I'm not Jewish. And I see that many Jewish members of this site (in this thread) have said here that this doesn't impact them or that they don't agree. I've also seen Jewish members on this site since Oct 7 who've said that they have felt inundated by antisemitism, and that it has driven away other Jewish members, so I don't know whose voices are not being heard.
What I don't see often here is a real concerned or compassionate response to Jewish members who do express this, or a real commitment to making this site comfortable for Jewish members, or a real commitment to exploring more insidious/subtle forms of antisemitism that aren't as easily 'flaggable' in one single comment but do make up an overall environment that feels hostile or unwelcoming.
Antisemitism being weaponized by fascists for fascist agendas does not mean that it also isn't very real, very insidious, and that we aren't all guilty of it.
I think we can do better and am often very disappointed that my communities, IRL or here, don't seem to be on board with that.
(*generalizations. of course it's not always this simple, but this is the general narrative)
posted by EarnestDeer at 8:41 PM on March 27 [12 favorites]
Are you just fighting for fighting's sake here?
No? MeTas should be posted because people are invested in discussing them, not because they're doing scut work for mods who also don't know what they're talking about. I think VB's inane opinions should have gone through the queue as a matter of principle but it's not my problem that they didn't.
posted by dusty potato at 8:44 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
No? MeTas should be posted because people are invested in discussing them, not because they're doing scut work for mods who also don't know what they're talking about. I think VB's inane opinions should have gone through the queue as a matter of principle but it's not my problem that they didn't.
posted by dusty potato at 8:44 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
Unfortunately, the mods don't seem to like approving MetaTalk posts from people who are invested in a topic because those people's previous history on the topic leads to a knee-jerk assumption that they're posting the MetaTalk just to be fighty and relitigate old threads.
As I have literally no site history on the topic, I figured I had a much better chance of actually getting a post through the queue.
I don't agree with the current heavy-handedness of MetaTalk post moderation, but I'm willing to meet the mods where they're at to help get desired posts up.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:07 PM on March 27 [5 favorites]
As I have literally no site history on the topic, I figured I had a much better chance of actually getting a post through the queue.
I don't agree with the current heavy-handedness of MetaTalk post moderation, but I'm willing to meet the mods where they're at to help get desired posts up.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:07 PM on March 27 [5 favorites]
"no, for the Jewish members who say they are uncomfortable and have not chimed in here to say how. that’s who you mean."
yes, thank you. that is who i mean.
i've watched jewish friends become completely alienated from who they thought was their community, and they're not in those communities anymore to speak up about what would make them uncomfortable. i've also seen comments on metafilter implying the same is happening here.
so that is exactly who i mean. i don't think them not chiming in here means they don't exist. i also don't think it means i shouldn't say anything and leave it to them. many of them have left?
your comment about me speaking of a minority as a monolith is an important one and good reminder for me, i am sorry for that.
posted by EarnestDeer at 9:15 PM on March 27 [4 favorites]
yes, thank you. that is who i mean.
i've watched jewish friends become completely alienated from who they thought was their community, and they're not in those communities anymore to speak up about what would make them uncomfortable. i've also seen comments on metafilter implying the same is happening here.
so that is exactly who i mean. i don't think them not chiming in here means they don't exist. i also don't think it means i shouldn't say anything and leave it to them. many of them have left?
your comment about me speaking of a minority as a monolith is an important one and good reminder for me, i am sorry for that.
posted by EarnestDeer at 9:15 PM on March 27 [4 favorites]
I'll do some searches on old posts and MeMail people to invite them to come to this thread to speak for themselves.
Again, I have no idea whether it is happening on MetaFilter, but I have definitely witnessed a surge elsewhere on the internet. Like straight-up slurs and hateful conspiracy theories, not just foreign policy disagreements.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:23 PM on March 27
Again, I have no idea whether it is happening on MetaFilter, but I have definitely witnessed a surge elsewhere on the internet. Like straight-up slurs and hateful conspiracy theories, not just foreign policy disagreements.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:23 PM on March 27
Just offering my 2 cents as someone who HAS been doing/contributing to threads on the Palestine genocide*: I have noted similar comments and similar sentiments - a lot of those are clearly struggling with the dynamic identified upthread about how their Jewish identity and Israel as a country is treated as one, and they couldn't handle any criticism or critical language about the war crimes being actively committed by a state.
*In the early days of last year, I was even made aware that my contributions contributed to someone buttoning as it was "promoting violence".
posted by cendawanita at 9:25 PM on March 27 [8 favorites]
*In the early days of last year, I was even made aware that my contributions contributed to someone buttoning as it was "promoting violence".
posted by cendawanita at 9:25 PM on March 27 [8 favorites]
OK I invited some people who seemed to have opinions on this topic to this thread, based on their recent comments elsewhere.
If I left you out, it's not personal, I'm just on my phone and my thumbs got tired before I found a relevant comment from you.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:04 PM on March 27 [1 favorite]
If I left you out, it's not personal, I'm just on my phone and my thumbs got tired before I found a relevant comment from you.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:04 PM on March 27 [1 favorite]
jfc
posted by dusty potato at 10:19 PM on March 27 [5 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 10:19 PM on March 27 [5 favorites]
(I didn't MeMail anyone who had already commented here since you obviously already found it on your own)
posted by Jacqueline at 10:21 PM on March 27
posted by Jacqueline at 10:21 PM on March 27
I am afraid, and I know other people who are afraid. If you read the Rogan thread, it is about rising Jewish fear, and then provides numerous examples of the causes. If you read some of the quieter comments there, you'll notice a couple of people reference synagogues being shot up. You'll see another saying toward the end that they would have liked to have talked about Rogan, Snyder and fear, but was not allowed. I actually thanked him for that. Still another commenter near that one concurred with the "not being allowed" part.
The dominant voices in the thread wanted to talk about politics or activism. One commenter said you couldn't talk about Jews without talking about Israel. Another said something similar about the Palestinians. Nonetheless, I managed to write a long post on multiple related topics without once mentioning Palestinians, Israelis, Zionists, the American Jewish right-wing and the Israeli Jewish right-wing without trying.
I also got two private emails about the thread. One was from someone philosophical about such matters. The other was from someone fairly heavily involved in activism and pro-Palestinian causes. They were extremely upset. Both emailers thought the thread was antisemitic. One made reference to the dominant commenters in the thread picking apart "good Jews" from bad. Another commenter in the Rogan thread does the same thing. That person also mentioned taking time off the site because of its obvious lack of respect for Jews. I wouldn't be surprised if the extremely upset emailer did the same, and I have spent the last 48 hours also considering a good long break.
posted by Violet Blue at 12:15 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
The dominant voices in the thread wanted to talk about politics or activism. One commenter said you couldn't talk about Jews without talking about Israel. Another said something similar about the Palestinians. Nonetheless, I managed to write a long post on multiple related topics without once mentioning Palestinians, Israelis, Zionists, the American Jewish right-wing and the Israeli Jewish right-wing without trying.
I also got two private emails about the thread. One was from someone philosophical about such matters. The other was from someone fairly heavily involved in activism and pro-Palestinian causes. They were extremely upset. Both emailers thought the thread was antisemitic. One made reference to the dominant commenters in the thread picking apart "good Jews" from bad. Another commenter in the Rogan thread does the same thing. That person also mentioned taking time off the site because of its obvious lack of respect for Jews. I wouldn't be surprised if the extremely upset emailer did the same, and I have spent the last 48 hours also considering a good long break.
posted by Violet Blue at 12:15 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
This is my earlier comment on this issue, which complements the comment above:
To my earlier point about the mods not being responsive to issues related to minorities: I posted a thread on antisemitism tonight, with something like 10 links and multiple paragraphs about a surge in US antisemitism thanks to the Trump administration, and with the help of podcasters like Joe Rogan and Theo Von.posted by Violet Blue at 12:22 AM on March 28
The first comment was all about how the conservative Anti-Defamation League (ADL) position on the Palestinian protesters was not helping antisemitism. Nearly every subsequent comment of 24 and counting was about the evils of the ADL, or how wrong I was to criticize the first post. I was not supporting the ADL in the thread. The post was not about the ADL. In fact, it never mentioned it. Yet I got taken to task by one commenter for trying to point out that the comment was verging on anti-semitic and by another for not reading up on the ADL. As in every other thread I've been in — or posted — that's even peripherally about the Palestinians, the pro-Palestinian contingent saw fit to turn the thread into a referendum on matters Palestinian from a point of view that completely and utterly obliterates any other perspective that doesn't whole heartedly agree with them and renders all other Jewish issues unimportant. If that isn't fucking antisemitic I don't know what is. The mods, who ignored a plea for intervention, as usual, should be ashamed.
Since we're just quoting ourselves at this point, I'll do it too:
Thewhite goyische saviorism schtick itself is genuinely verging on antisemitic at this point.
posted by knucklebones at 12:47 AM on March 28 [12 favorites]
I, a Jew, would find threads relating to Judaism, the state of Israel, and/or antizionism a hell of a lot more pleasant if one troll wasn't allowed to take up all the air in the room speaking for Jews and making decrees about who gets to be a "real" Jew and who doesn't. (Spoiler: it depends on whether your politics align with theirs! If they don't, you're actually an antisemite!) At some point it should be clear that this user has a pathological need to center themself, and does this by hijacking causes and positions that provide reasonable cover of social justice advocacy. (Well, now they do; five years ago the positions were reactionary and conservative but their behavior and underlying goals were the same.)Or, more succinctly as someone else said upthread: "...keep your goyische bullshit out of it. let Jewish members who have spoken and those who have yet to do so speak for ourselves."
The
posted by knucklebones at 12:47 AM on March 28 [12 favorites]
The post was not about the ADL. In fact, it never mentioned it.
The ADL is literally quoted in the fourth and fifth links of your post.
posted by ftrtts at 12:58 AM on March 28 [21 favorites]
The ADL is literally quoted in the fourth and fifth links of your post.
posted by ftrtts at 12:58 AM on March 28 [21 favorites]
Both emailers thought the thread was antisemitic. One made reference to the dominant commenters in the thread picking apart "good Jews" from bad.
Oh, this is fucking rich, considering that one of the recent attempts to hijack MetaTalk threads involved you classifying users who agreed with you as "Jews" and "Jewish allies," while those who disagreed with you were "I/P trolls," "the I/P crowd," or "pro-Palestinian." It wasn't a slip of the keyboard or a mistake, every single time your opponents are referenced, the idea that any or even possibly most of them are Jewish is reclassified into some sort of derogatory reference.
Every. Single. Time.
You want to talk about examples of blatant antisemitism? There it is. At no point are Jews that disagree with you granted any sort of existence, let alone allowed to have a valid opinion. This isn't the first time by a long stretch, it's just the latest and one of the most blatant examples of antisemitism I've seen on this site, combining not only personal definitions of what constitutes "good" and "bad" Jews, but the conflation of Zionism with Judaism. And then on top of that there was a little Trumpian smirk about anti-racists just a few sentences after you had cynically and disgustingly used Jews of Color (many of whom strongly disagree with you on both Palestine and synagogue security) as a prop. As one poster noted, it is enough to make one go aghast. If we're serious about fighting antisemitism here, this kind of behavior seems like far more of a problem, especially when combined with the ongoing concerns about certain users bullying their own threads.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:24 AM on March 28 [28 favorites]
Oh, this is fucking rich, considering that one of the recent attempts to hijack MetaTalk threads involved you classifying users who agreed with you as "Jews" and "Jewish allies," while those who disagreed with you were "I/P trolls," "the I/P crowd," or "pro-Palestinian." It wasn't a slip of the keyboard or a mistake, every single time your opponents are referenced, the idea that any or even possibly most of them are Jewish is reclassified into some sort of derogatory reference.
Every. Single. Time.
You want to talk about examples of blatant antisemitism? There it is. At no point are Jews that disagree with you granted any sort of existence, let alone allowed to have a valid opinion. This isn't the first time by a long stretch, it's just the latest and one of the most blatant examples of antisemitism I've seen on this site, combining not only personal definitions of what constitutes "good" and "bad" Jews, but the conflation of Zionism with Judaism. And then on top of that there was a little Trumpian smirk about anti-racists just a few sentences after you had cynically and disgustingly used Jews of Color (many of whom strongly disagree with you on both Palestine and synagogue security) as a prop. As one poster noted, it is enough to make one go aghast. If we're serious about fighting antisemitism here, this kind of behavior seems like far more of a problem, especially when combined with the ongoing concerns about certain users bullying their own threads.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:24 AM on March 28 [28 favorites]
I want to say something about this post being profoundly unhelpful because it's just turned into a bunch of Jews arguing with each other about who gets to be a Jew, but that's actually pretty much what seems to happen all the time in Jewish spaces, so maybe this, too, is the Jewish Experience. Now we just need to have someone's grandma turn up to tell us all how good we have it and then we can all go and have something to eat.
+1 to wanting to hear less of the goyishe savior bullshit though. If there's one thing that makes being a minority on this site worse, it's having well-meaning but poorly informed outsiders trying to tell us how we're supposed to feel. And it keeps happening. Shut up and sit down and let us talk.
posted by fight or flight at 2:38 AM on March 28 [19 favorites]
+1 to wanting to hear less of the goyishe savior bullshit though. If there's one thing that makes being a minority on this site worse, it's having well-meaning but poorly informed outsiders trying to tell us how we're supposed to feel. And it keeps happening. Shut up and sit down and let us talk.
posted by fight or flight at 2:38 AM on March 28 [19 favorites]
And I'm not going to go combing through comments to prove it, or to get in a debate. I think it's enough for me to see it and say it.
I'm not Jewish
Audibly cackling at this. Doing "it's not my job to educate you" shit at a bunch of jews as a goy, we have truly come full circle. Get the fuck outta here lol
posted by windbox at 2:57 AM on March 28 [17 favorites]
I'm not Jewish
Audibly cackling at this. Doing "it's not my job to educate you" shit at a bunch of jews as a goy, we have truly come full circle. Get the fuck outta here lol
posted by windbox at 2:57 AM on March 28 [17 favorites]
I can see where some of the complaint here is coming from, looking at the most recent thread on antisemitism via Joe Rogan and his ilk.
Some people wanted a space to basically commiserate and say that it really fucking sucked how widespread antisemitism STILL is and the fact that Jews have to turn any sort of Jewish gathering, whether for explicitly religious reasons or not, into a fortress is really terrible.
And other people wanted to explore why antisemitism is growing, or at least growing louder, and remains a major force in the world despite being totally irrational and rooted in pure falsehood.
The fact is that whether it's just or not, part of the answer for the latter is Israel's behavior, especially it's genocidal efforts to eradicate the Palestinian people. That's not fair or right, Jews outside Israel have exactly zero influence on, control over, or responsibility for what Israel does. But since antisemitism is itself inherently irrational, it doesn't matter if it's irrational to see an uptick in antisemitism when Israel does evil things, we see that uptick.
There's not much Jews outside Israel can actually do about that except take precautionary measures when Israel starts up some new atrocity, which brings us back to commiseration.
I'd suggest that rather than antisemitism we're looking at the listen vs suggest argument.
Some people want a place to vent and have others listen and acknowledge their fears, concerns, and problems. Other people want to explore causes, possible actions, etc. I'm not at all convinced that we here in MeFi have any chance of actually finding anything useful or new to say about antisemitism as it relates to the actions taken by Israel, but many of us (including me) do seem to really love talking about it.
I'm the wrong person to say if talking about Israel's role in antisemitism worldwide is antisemitic or not, I don't think so but I'm not Jewish so I'm an outsider with an outsider's POV. But I can see how to at least some Jews it does appear to be regardless of intent.
posted by sotonohito at 7:35 AM on March 28 [8 favorites]
Some people wanted a space to basically commiserate and say that it really fucking sucked how widespread antisemitism STILL is and the fact that Jews have to turn any sort of Jewish gathering, whether for explicitly religious reasons or not, into a fortress is really terrible.
And other people wanted to explore why antisemitism is growing, or at least growing louder, and remains a major force in the world despite being totally irrational and rooted in pure falsehood.
The fact is that whether it's just or not, part of the answer for the latter is Israel's behavior, especially it's genocidal efforts to eradicate the Palestinian people. That's not fair or right, Jews outside Israel have exactly zero influence on, control over, or responsibility for what Israel does. But since antisemitism is itself inherently irrational, it doesn't matter if it's irrational to see an uptick in antisemitism when Israel does evil things, we see that uptick.
There's not much Jews outside Israel can actually do about that except take precautionary measures when Israel starts up some new atrocity, which brings us back to commiseration.
I'd suggest that rather than antisemitism we're looking at the listen vs suggest argument.
Some people want a place to vent and have others listen and acknowledge their fears, concerns, and problems. Other people want to explore causes, possible actions, etc. I'm not at all convinced that we here in MeFi have any chance of actually finding anything useful or new to say about antisemitism as it relates to the actions taken by Israel, but many of us (including me) do seem to really love talking about it.
I'm the wrong person to say if talking about Israel's role in antisemitism worldwide is antisemitic or not, I don't think so but I'm not Jewish so I'm an outsider with an outsider's POV. But I can see how to at least some Jews it does appear to be regardless of intent.
posted by sotonohito at 7:35 AM on March 28 [8 favorites]
That 2017 thread sure plays different.
posted by cendawanita at 8:20 AM on March 28 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:20 AM on March 28 [4 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Please don't call anyone Lizard Person, this is a dog whistle rooted in antisemitic conspiracy theories that have long sought to dehumanize Jewish people and as such goes against our Content Policy and Community Guidelines.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:19 PM on March 28 [3 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:19 PM on March 28 [3 favorites]
And I'm not going to go combing through comments to prove it, or to get in a debate. I think it's enough for me to see it and say it.
I think you are secretly Batman. I’m not going to provide anything to support this belief. I think it’s enough for me to see it and say it.
posted by Lemkin at 12:28 PM on March 28 [4 favorites]
I think you are secretly Batman. I’m not going to provide anything to support this belief. I think it’s enough for me to see it and say it.
posted by Lemkin at 12:28 PM on March 28 [4 favorites]
Violet Blue thinks there is an antisemitism problem on mefi, submitted a metatalk about it that was not published, and claims this thread was antisemitic despite the fact that i and other jews disagreed.
For those questioning my credentials: I am half Ashkenazi and half Sephardic. And I and other Jews in the thread disagreed with you.
It stands to reason some of us disagree. That would be fine if the I/P crowd — the ones who feel passionately about activism, political action, Zionism, the right wing in the U.S. and Israel, and matters concerning Israel and Palestine — would contain themselves to threads they start or where those topics are central to the post. My issue is when they are not, and they take over the thread often in a hostile way that comes up again and again in other threads. (That's what I mean by trolls, some of you simply WILL NOT agree to disagree, and have repeatedly hectored me in thread after thread.)
posted by Violet Blue at 12:37 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
For those questioning my credentials: I am half Ashkenazi and half Sephardic. And I and other Jews in the thread disagreed with you.
It stands to reason some of us disagree. That would be fine if the I/P crowd — the ones who feel passionately about activism, political action, Zionism, the right wing in the U.S. and Israel, and matters concerning Israel and Palestine — would contain themselves to threads they start or where those topics are central to the post. My issue is when they are not, and they take over the thread often in a hostile way that comes up again and again in other threads. (That's what I mean by trolls, some of you simply WILL NOT agree to disagree, and have repeatedly hectored me in thread after thread.)
posted by Violet Blue at 12:37 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
Comment Tally
knock my sock: 10 comments
Violet Blue: 4 (including this one)
posted by Violet Blue at 1:18 PM on March 28
knock my sock: 10 comments
Violet Blue: 4 (including this one)
posted by Violet Blue at 1:18 PM on March 28
My issue is when they are not, and they take over the thread often in a hostile way that comes up again and again in other threads.
In other words, exactly what the mods have repeatedly told you to stop doing, most recently as of a couple days ago.
And you still can't bring yourself to explicitly admit that anybody who disagrees with you is Jewish! Once again you and your supporters are Jews, the rest of us are trolls. We are so far beyond any explanation for this now. It's just blatant attempts to erase us.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:16 PM on March 28 [6 favorites]
In other words, exactly what the mods have repeatedly told you to stop doing, most recently as of a couple days ago.
And you still can't bring yourself to explicitly admit that anybody who disagrees with you is Jewish! Once again you and your supporters are Jews, the rest of us are trolls. We are so far beyond any explanation for this now. It's just blatant attempts to erase us.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:16 PM on March 28 [6 favorites]
That 2017 thread sure plays different.
I am noticing a pattern where when people bring up antisemitism on MetaFilter, a bunch of people rush to claim they're not antisemitic, they just have a problem with a couple of specific Jewish members.
But it's different specific members each time, and the main thing those members seem to have in common is that they're very public about their Jewish identities.
I don't have a great memory for personal details and don't tend to remember who is or isn't part of a particular demographic from thread to thread. So the fact that a bunch of other MeFites seem to be keeping a persistent mental list of "Jewish people" is weird to me to begin with.
If some people are -- consciously or subconsciously -- a) keeping track of who is Jewish, b) seeking out and/or escalating conflict with those Jewish members, and then c) responding to concerns of antisemitism with a defense of "I just don't like those particular individuals because they're jerks"... then yeah, that seems like antisemitism, albeit with extra steps.
Also, given the massive rise of antisemitism online and in society in general over the past few years, the null hypothesis should be that MetaFilter is NOT uniquely exempt from it. So I was already inclined to believe that it was an issue here even before looking at the evidence. Seeing that the same patterns have played out for years even as the players changed just cinched it for me.
Sadly, I'm not sure what the mods can do about it? If a bunch of members are keeping mental lists of Jewish people and then subtly mistreating or otherwise engaging with them in bad faith over long periods of time, how are the mods supposed to know it's because of antisemitism and not because people are holding long-term grudges over other things like being told their favorite band sucks?
I ask this not because I think we should all collectively shrug and say there's nothing that can be done about it, but because I genuinely want to hear ideas on how to proceed.
One thing I've seen happen with other issues on MetaFilter that seems to have worked is mods and the community in general taking an approach of "if it's ambiguous as to whether it's XYZism, call it out as if it definitely is." There have been some growing pains along the way as individual members felt like we were being chewed out for unintentionally putting our foot in it, but we learned and improved and the site culture as a whole got a lot better over time.
I was on the receiving end of some of those callouts, and while I felt unfairly picked-on at the time, I am sooooooooo grateful now to all the MeFites who have taken the time to chew me out over whatever problematic language I was using or discriminatory assumptions I was making. It put me on the right side of history years before mainstream society caught up, like some sort of social justice hipster.
However, one of the main reasons those educational callouts were more prolific back in the day is that there was no MetaTalk moderation queue, and even after the queue was introduced it was initially only used to stagger the timing of the posts. It also used to be a lot more acceptable to go after individual members for their patterns of behavior, but now that gets censored as a personal attack.
So I'm not sure how to solve this, given current moderation policies. But I agree that it's a problem that needs work.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:55 PM on March 28 [5 favorites]
I am noticing a pattern where when people bring up antisemitism on MetaFilter, a bunch of people rush to claim they're not antisemitic, they just have a problem with a couple of specific Jewish members.
But it's different specific members each time, and the main thing those members seem to have in common is that they're very public about their Jewish identities.
I don't have a great memory for personal details and don't tend to remember who is or isn't part of a particular demographic from thread to thread. So the fact that a bunch of other MeFites seem to be keeping a persistent mental list of "Jewish people" is weird to me to begin with.
If some people are -- consciously or subconsciously -- a) keeping track of who is Jewish, b) seeking out and/or escalating conflict with those Jewish members, and then c) responding to concerns of antisemitism with a defense of "I just don't like those particular individuals because they're jerks"... then yeah, that seems like antisemitism, albeit with extra steps.
Also, given the massive rise of antisemitism online and in society in general over the past few years, the null hypothesis should be that MetaFilter is NOT uniquely exempt from it. So I was already inclined to believe that it was an issue here even before looking at the evidence. Seeing that the same patterns have played out for years even as the players changed just cinched it for me.
Sadly, I'm not sure what the mods can do about it? If a bunch of members are keeping mental lists of Jewish people and then subtly mistreating or otherwise engaging with them in bad faith over long periods of time, how are the mods supposed to know it's because of antisemitism and not because people are holding long-term grudges over other things like being told their favorite band sucks?
I ask this not because I think we should all collectively shrug and say there's nothing that can be done about it, but because I genuinely want to hear ideas on how to proceed.
One thing I've seen happen with other issues on MetaFilter that seems to have worked is mods and the community in general taking an approach of "if it's ambiguous as to whether it's XYZism, call it out as if it definitely is." There have been some growing pains along the way as individual members felt like we were being chewed out for unintentionally putting our foot in it, but we learned and improved and the site culture as a whole got a lot better over time.
I was on the receiving end of some of those callouts, and while I felt unfairly picked-on at the time, I am sooooooooo grateful now to all the MeFites who have taken the time to chew me out over whatever problematic language I was using or discriminatory assumptions I was making. It put me on the right side of history years before mainstream society caught up, like some sort of social justice hipster.
However, one of the main reasons those educational callouts were more prolific back in the day is that there was no MetaTalk moderation queue, and even after the queue was introduced it was initially only used to stagger the timing of the posts. It also used to be a lot more acceptable to go after individual members for their patterns of behavior, but now that gets censored as a personal attack.
So I'm not sure how to solve this, given current moderation policies. But I agree that it's a problem that needs work.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:55 PM on March 28 [5 favorites]
"One comment deleted. Please don't call anyone Lizard Person"
That this deletion and mod note needed to be made is ample evidence that there is definitely antisemitism on MetaFilter because what the fuck.
Like the fact that someone felt comfortable using that term here should be eye opening to any fence sitters that we do indeed have a problem.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:04 PM on March 28 [2 favorites]
That this deletion and mod note needed to be made is ample evidence that there is definitely antisemitism on MetaFilter because what the fuck.
Like the fact that someone felt comfortable using that term here should be eye opening to any fence sitters that we do indeed have a problem.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:04 PM on March 28 [2 favorites]
As much as I would enjoy all the popcorn I would eat while reading through such threads, “let’s bring back personal attacks and individual callouts” is probably not a solution. I miss the fighty MeTas of yore but there is an abundance of places elsewhere I can get a dose of aggro online.
On the Jewishness topic I want to say that I have found the vast majority of comments here nearly inscrutable. Is VB a Zionist who thinks anyone who isn’t can’t also be Jewish? Or am I simply a bad Jew but still Jewish? Are they not actually a Zionist and instead primarily concerned with the American Jewish experience and attempting to include the large contingent of Zionist American Jews alongside the rest of us? I don’t read every thread and I rarely keep track of who posts which bad opinions, so making sweeping declarations about an individual’s commenting behavior over time is meaningless to me.
Yes, antisemitism in leftist spaces looks different from how it does in right wing spaces. Yes, including here on MeFi. One thing I think might be notable to non-Jews is that much of our religion is basically arguing with each other and with God. So it can be really hard to tell, especially in a text based medium, when we are actually hurt or upset, and when we are just arguing to pick away at a problem. I think there is a lack of mutual respect leading to true hurt, here. But I also think that such mutual respect does need to be earned, on a case by case basis. Say what you fucking mean, and mean what you fucking say, and then see where that gets us.
posted by Mizu at 4:17 PM on March 28 [6 favorites]
On the Jewishness topic I want to say that I have found the vast majority of comments here nearly inscrutable. Is VB a Zionist who thinks anyone who isn’t can’t also be Jewish? Or am I simply a bad Jew but still Jewish? Are they not actually a Zionist and instead primarily concerned with the American Jewish experience and attempting to include the large contingent of Zionist American Jews alongside the rest of us? I don’t read every thread and I rarely keep track of who posts which bad opinions, so making sweeping declarations about an individual’s commenting behavior over time is meaningless to me.
Yes, antisemitism in leftist spaces looks different from how it does in right wing spaces. Yes, including here on MeFi. One thing I think might be notable to non-Jews is that much of our religion is basically arguing with each other and with God. So it can be really hard to tell, especially in a text based medium, when we are actually hurt or upset, and when we are just arguing to pick away at a problem. I think there is a lack of mutual respect leading to true hurt, here. But I also think that such mutual respect does need to be earned, on a case by case basis. Say what you fucking mean, and mean what you fucking say, and then see where that gets us.
posted by Mizu at 4:17 PM on March 28 [6 favorites]
"Two Jews, three opinions" as the old joke goes.
As a long time MeFite who also happens to be Jewish, I’ll just share my initial reaction to the Rogen thread when I saw it today (it already had over 80 comments) I read Violet Blue’s post with both dread, because of the frightening content, and hope, because I thought: with so many comments, there’s bound to be valuable discussion around the history of anti-semitism and it’s intersection with populism, Christian nationalism, new forms of mass media, etc. or even more so, users’ personal experience with what they’re seeing online or in person with friends and family, how things like conspiracy theories pushed on podcasts and social media helped bring fringe racist ideas back into the fore (can you tell I just finished watching the new Contrapoints?)
But then I saw the first comment: ”It's not helping that ADL is fully abdicating its role, to prioritize targeting anti genocide protestors and crush Columbia rather than stand up to the Musk and CPAC.” The comment had 60 favorites, and I largely agree with the statement, but, well, my heart sank. I knew then that the thread was not going to center around what anti-semites are doing, but about what Jews are doing. “What are the Jews doing about anti-semitism”? “Are they doing it right? Are they doing it wrong??” I’ll tell you what a bunch of us are doing: Getting pretty scared!
posted by gwint at 4:25 PM on March 28 [13 favorites]
As a long time MeFite who also happens to be Jewish, I’ll just share my initial reaction to the Rogen thread when I saw it today (it already had over 80 comments) I read Violet Blue’s post with both dread, because of the frightening content, and hope, because I thought: with so many comments, there’s bound to be valuable discussion around the history of anti-semitism and it’s intersection with populism, Christian nationalism, new forms of mass media, etc. or even more so, users’ personal experience with what they’re seeing online or in person with friends and family, how things like conspiracy theories pushed on podcasts and social media helped bring fringe racist ideas back into the fore (can you tell I just finished watching the new Contrapoints?)
But then I saw the first comment: ”It's not helping that ADL is fully abdicating its role, to prioritize targeting anti genocide protestors and crush Columbia rather than stand up to the Musk and CPAC.” The comment had 60 favorites, and I largely agree with the statement, but, well, my heart sank. I knew then that the thread was not going to center around what anti-semites are doing, but about what Jews are doing. “What are the Jews doing about anti-semitism”? “Are they doing it right? Are they doing it wrong??” I’ll tell you what a bunch of us are doing: Getting pretty scared!
posted by gwint at 4:25 PM on March 28 [13 favorites]
Here's a couple of great examples by writer and law professor David Schraub on why the ADL--or more accurately, its cowardice and willingness to become collaborators with antisemites--is always going to be salient to discussions on antisemitism, especially in the US:
Does the ADL Care That Republicans Admire Hitler?
Does the ADL Care That Republicans Admire Hitler?
Shortly before the election, I posted about the alarming fact that (a) Trump seems to admire Hitler and (b) Republicans don't seem to care that Trump admires Hitler. In the course of that post, I asked rhetorically what the ADL's response to this news was going to be, observing that the actual answer appeared to be covering their eyes with a "lalala" see-no-evil approach. This was of a kind with the new direction Jonathan Greenblatt had taken the organization, which was steadfast and resolute in never, ever, giving offense or more than the most mealy-mouthed critique to the American right no matter how open their antisemitism became.Yet More Trumpist Humiliation of the ADL
Fast forward a few months and some increasingly pathetic acts of ADL supplication, and we reach inauguration day, where Acting President Elon Musk appears to have given a Nazi stiff-arm salute (the Nazis sure think so).
Is the ADL on the case? Only if dismissing the case counts!
What we saw in 2016, is only going to be worse in 2024. That's true on many levels, but for the ADL in particular it is evidently apparent -- they will sell us out. They will take vulnerable American Jews, who are rightfully terrified about emergent Christian nationalism and White supremacy and violent extremism and, yes, left-wing campus antisemitism too*, and they will leave us to twist. They will do it regularly, and repeatedly, and without hesitation, and for an embarrassingly cheap payoff.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:30 PM on March 28 [9 favorites]
* I include this because, by cuddling up to the far-right powers that be, the ADL will necessarily kneecap any ability to effectively fight campus antisemitism, though they certainly will retain the capacity to yell about it. The sorts of tactics which actually might tamp down on and respond to campus antisemitism, versus the sorts of tactics which yield good Fox News ragebait and can justify blowing up the Department of Education, are not compatible with one another, and the ADL is going to lash itself to the latter at the expense of the former. While there still may be utility in what the ADL can do for someone like me on the local level, in terms of a cohesive, national strategy I do not have any more confidence in the ADL's ability to effectively protect me from campus antisemitism than I have confidence in its ability to protect me from conservative antisemitism.
For anyone who's keeping track: dusty potato buttoned last night.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:44 PM on March 28 [6 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:44 PM on March 28 [6 favorites]
Jacqueline: pretty sure the user who posted that comment is Jewish.
posted by sagc at 4:47 PM on March 28 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 4:47 PM on March 28 [2 favorites]
That this deletion and mod note needed to be made is ample evidence that there is definitely antisemitism on MetaFilter because what the fuck.
That was me.
You may not believe me when I say that I, a Jew, did not know the trope had any antisemitic connotations. But that is what I am telling you.
I hope needless to say, had I known, I would have gone with the Batman version instead.
posted by Lemkin at 4:49 PM on March 28 [8 favorites]
That was me.
You may not believe me when I say that I, a Jew, did not know the trope had any antisemitic connotations. But that is what I am telling you.
I hope needless to say, had I known, I would have gone with the Batman version instead.
posted by Lemkin at 4:49 PM on March 28 [8 favorites]
A jew calling a non-jew a "lizard person" in jest...is apparently "definitely antisemitism"...according to another non-jew. God this place is so fucking goofy it will never get boring to me, a jew.
posted by windbox at 5:05 PM on March 28 [16 favorites]
posted by windbox at 5:05 PM on March 28 [16 favorites]
Hand to God, I was thinking of the Gorn from Star Trek. (If he's part of the thing, I don't want to know about it.)
It's because I'm so proud of being Jewish (as Dad used to say, "do you know what our number of Nobel Prizes per capita is?") that I so fiercely resent Israel for making us look bad in the eyes of those who make no distinction between us.
posted by Lemkin at 5:10 PM on March 28 [9 favorites]
It's because I'm so proud of being Jewish (as Dad used to say, "do you know what our number of Nobel Prizes per capita is?") that I so fiercely resent Israel for making us look bad in the eyes of those who make no distinction between us.
posted by Lemkin at 5:10 PM on March 28 [9 favorites]
Here's a couple of great examples by writer and law professor David Schraub on why the ADL--or more accurately, its cowardice and willingness to become collaborators with antisemites--is always going to be salient to discussions on antisemitism
Always include some bad Jews in discussions on antisemitism. 10-4, good buddy.
I'm glad at least we've gotten to the portion of the thread where it's just Jews arguing with each other. It's getting me pumped for Passover. Pumped for Passover-- sounds like the worst Klezmer workout album ever.
posted by gwint at 5:14 PM on March 28 [6 favorites]
Always include some bad Jews in discussions on antisemitism. 10-4, good buddy.
I'm glad at least we've gotten to the portion of the thread where it's just Jews arguing with each other. It's getting me pumped for Passover. Pumped for Passover-- sounds like the worst Klezmer workout album ever.
posted by gwint at 5:14 PM on March 28 [6 favorites]
I was thinking niche porn, but either works.
posted by Lemkin at 5:19 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
posted by Lemkin at 5:19 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
"A jew calling a non-jew a "lizard person" in jest...is apparently "definitely antisemitism"...according to another non-jew."
Sorry, I missed that context because the comment was already deleted and I only saw the mod note. I thought someone had used it sincerely as a slur.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:46 PM on March 28 [4 favorites]
Sorry, I missed that context because the comment was already deleted and I only saw the mod note. I thought someone had used it sincerely as a slur.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:46 PM on March 28 [4 favorites]
thou shalt not anthromorphically jest with niche porn.
posted by clavdivs at 5:52 PM on March 28 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 5:52 PM on March 28 [2 favorites]
I'm glad at least we've gotten to the portion of the thread where it's just Jews arguing with each other
In fairness, Jews arguing with each other is sort of, like, our whole thing.
posted by Lemkin at 5:54 PM on March 28 [4 favorites]
In fairness, Jews arguing with each other is sort of, like, our whole thing.
posted by Lemkin at 5:54 PM on March 28 [4 favorites]
Yeah but like, there’s arguing, where everyone is doing so in good faith, about a shared problem, and everyone checks in with what has already been said by respected leaders before us, and makes sure to reference that precedent so everyone knows what everyone is talking about, while questioning any premises for new holes created by changing times and contexts. And then there’s whatever… this has been.
posted by Mizu at 6:09 PM on March 28 [4 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 6:09 PM on March 28 [4 favorites]
I'm glad at least we've gotten to the portion of the thread where it's just Jews arguing with each other.
Dang, as a lapsed Baptist I missed my shot!
And I was going to self-deprecatingly refer to myself as a goy, but turns out that could be problematic.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 6:15 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
Dang, as a lapsed Baptist I missed my shot!
And I was going to self-deprecatingly refer to myself as a goy, but turns out that could be problematic.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 6:15 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
And then there’s whatever… this has been.
We are reducing antisemitism, and creating a safer and more respectful space for jews on metafilter...successfully I might add. If only the founder of Palantir could see us now, I bet they would feel less scared
posted by windbox at 6:19 PM on March 28 [3 favorites]
We are reducing antisemitism, and creating a safer and more respectful space for jews on metafilter...successfully I might add. If only the founder of Palantir could see us now, I bet they would feel less scared
posted by windbox at 6:19 PM on March 28 [3 favorites]
Holy baptistries of lapis, Batman
posted by clavdivs at 6:34 PM on March 28 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 6:34 PM on March 28 [2 favorites]
And yes, it was completely plausible to me that someone might drop a straight-up slur into a MetaTalk thread, because I've had to unfriend a lot of people on Facebook whom I'd never suspected of bigotry before but who have gone full mask-off antisemitic in reaction to the Israeli military's actions over the past few years.
It's also been creeping into local anti-war protests because the other protestors seem to prioritize large crowds over excluding hate speech. :(
Almost all my IRL Jewish friends are fellow former Libertarians (we abandoned the LP after the alt-right Mises Caucus took over) and thus have always been just as critical of the Israeli government and military as they are of the US government and military. So probably not a representative sample of American Jewish people in general. Thus I was initially pretty shocked by how many non-Jewish people seem automatically assume that Jewish people support everything the Israeli government and military do, whereas in my Facebook feed, my Jewish friends are the ones yelling about it the loudest.
The speed at which antisemitic hate speech and otherwise attacking Jewish people simply for being Jewish has become "acceptable" in otherwise progressive communities, both online and offline, scares the crap out of me and I'm not even the one being targeted. Like I was used to conservatives deciding "I don't like something a subset of demographic X does so I'm going to punish every member of demographic X just for existing," but I did NOT expect it from people who normally espouse more individualistic ideologies.
Anyhow the whole thing has been super eye-opening as to how pervasive antisemitism must be in American culture and most non-Jewish Americans' upbringing for so many people's brains to have been primed to flip that switch on even when they're normally resistant to the idea of "all X are inherently bad people." Like before I was just "yeah, I'm an atheist, Christians don't like me much either" but now I'm like "wow okay so people might dislike atheists but holy shit they just straight-up hate Jewish people, huh????"
posted by Jacqueline at 6:35 PM on March 28 [5 favorites]
It's also been creeping into local anti-war protests because the other protestors seem to prioritize large crowds over excluding hate speech. :(
Almost all my IRL Jewish friends are fellow former Libertarians (we abandoned the LP after the alt-right Mises Caucus took over) and thus have always been just as critical of the Israeli government and military as they are of the US government and military. So probably not a representative sample of American Jewish people in general. Thus I was initially pretty shocked by how many non-Jewish people seem automatically assume that Jewish people support everything the Israeli government and military do, whereas in my Facebook feed, my Jewish friends are the ones yelling about it the loudest.
The speed at which antisemitic hate speech and otherwise attacking Jewish people simply for being Jewish has become "acceptable" in otherwise progressive communities, both online and offline, scares the crap out of me and I'm not even the one being targeted. Like I was used to conservatives deciding "I don't like something a subset of demographic X does so I'm going to punish every member of demographic X just for existing," but I did NOT expect it from people who normally espouse more individualistic ideologies.
Anyhow the whole thing has been super eye-opening as to how pervasive antisemitism must be in American culture and most non-Jewish Americans' upbringing for so many people's brains to have been primed to flip that switch on even when they're normally resistant to the idea of "all X are inherently bad people." Like before I was just "yeah, I'm an atheist, Christians don't like me much either" but now I'm like "wow okay so people might dislike atheists but holy shit they just straight-up hate Jewish people, huh????"
posted by Jacqueline at 6:35 PM on March 28 [5 favorites]
Can you please be specific when mentioning antisemitism? What was the exact quote? Was it said online or at a protest? Who was saying it? Was it reported or did you witness it?
You have already made one accusation of antisemitism in this thread and it was a comment by a Jewish mefite that you didn't read.
posted by ftrtts at 10:51 PM on March 28 [8 favorites]
You have already made one accusation of antisemitism in this thread and it was a comment by a Jewish mefite that you didn't read.
posted by ftrtts at 10:51 PM on March 28 [8 favorites]
Glad to hear you've finally arrived in the reality that Jewish people have been living in for decades, Jacqueline. The conspiracy theories, the David Icke fans, and "it's just a joke" antisemitism right alongside the "let's draw a swastika outside the Hasid school" antisemitism -- this isn't new.
(And this, too, is goyishe savior bullshit. The sentiment is nice but this shouldn't be a forum for non-Jews to wring your hands over just now finding out that America hates Jews, actually.)
posted by fight or flight at 10:53 PM on March 28 [8 favorites]
(And this, too, is goyishe savior bullshit. The sentiment is nice but this shouldn't be a forum for non-Jews to wring your hands over just now finding out that America hates Jews, actually.)
posted by fight or flight at 10:53 PM on March 28 [8 favorites]
I knew then that the thread was not going to center around what anti-semites are doing, but about what Jews are doing. “What are the Jews doing about anti-semitism”?
I’m of two minds about this because on one hand I do think it would be nice sometimes to have a conversation that doesn’t swerve back into the same lane as countless other conversations. But on the other, look, I wouldn’t say that discussion of contemporary antisemitism is inextricable from discussion of Israel, but I think people on the left taking antisemitism less and less seriously has quite a bit to do with Israel and the cynicism of some of Israel’s American supporters. And while people often dance around it a bit by invoking Christian Zionism, there are Jewish organizations that absolutely own a big piece of that, and they seem willing to throw a lot of other Jews under the bus, and I am genuinely fucking livid about it. So if it comes up I’m not not going to have a lot of patience for people tying themselves in knots trying to argue it’s not real or relevant.
posted by atoxyl at 11:22 PM on March 28 [10 favorites]
I’m of two minds about this because on one hand I do think it would be nice sometimes to have a conversation that doesn’t swerve back into the same lane as countless other conversations. But on the other, look, I wouldn’t say that discussion of contemporary antisemitism is inextricable from discussion of Israel, but I think people on the left taking antisemitism less and less seriously has quite a bit to do with Israel and the cynicism of some of Israel’s American supporters. And while people often dance around it a bit by invoking Christian Zionism, there are Jewish organizations that absolutely own a big piece of that, and they seem willing to throw a lot of other Jews under the bus, and I am genuinely fucking livid about it. So if it comes up I’m not not going to have a lot of patience for people tying themselves in knots trying to argue it’s not real or relevant.
posted by atoxyl at 11:22 PM on March 28 [10 favorites]
Can you please be specific when mentioning antisemitism? What was the exact quote?
There is no exact quote, all of this just emanates from Violet Blue doing stupid mewling Bari Weiss "everything I don't like is antisemitism" shtick in which some conversation did not go their exact way because people in the "I/P crowdddddd got more faves than meeeee in my threadddd". If people want to have a conversation or a debate about the role of organizations like the ADL in broader conversations about antisemitism (for the 50th time, cited multiple times in the fucking links in the fucking post, another point that continues to go unaddressed) fine and well, 12 jews 15 opinions, ha ha, this just like seder, conversation and debate, good stuff!! But doing so under the framing that this was some kind of antisemitic incident and how can we "reduce antisemitism on metafilter" is just patently fucking silly, I have zero respect for it.
posted by windbox at 6:15 AM on March 29 [14 favorites]
There is no exact quote, all of this just emanates from Violet Blue doing stupid mewling Bari Weiss "everything I don't like is antisemitism" shtick in which some conversation did not go their exact way because people in the "I/P crowdddddd got more faves than meeeee in my threadddd". If people want to have a conversation or a debate about the role of organizations like the ADL in broader conversations about antisemitism (for the 50th time, cited multiple times in the fucking links in the fucking post, another point that continues to go unaddressed) fine and well, 12 jews 15 opinions, ha ha, this just like seder, conversation and debate, good stuff!! But doing so under the framing that this was some kind of antisemitic incident and how can we "reduce antisemitism on metafilter" is just patently fucking silly, I have zero respect for it.
posted by windbox at 6:15 AM on March 29 [14 favorites]
MetaFilter: just patently fucking silly, I have zero respect for it
posted by Lemkin at 6:46 AM on March 29 [5 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 6:46 AM on March 29 [5 favorites]
I think people on the left taking antisemitism less and less seriously has quite a bit to do with Israel and the cynicism of some of Israel’s American supporters
It’s true that 20 years ago my first response to a charge of antisemitism from the ADL would have been “How are they picking on us now” and that now my first response to a charge of antisemitism from the ADL is “those toadies to fascism want to shut down another protest against genocide”.
The danger of this kind of thing happening was loudly and repeatedly pointed out by leftist Jews, but the ADL and their ilk had their playbook and they were going to stick with it.
posted by Lemkin at 6:56 AM on March 29 [9 favorites]
It’s true that 20 years ago my first response to a charge of antisemitism from the ADL would have been “How are they picking on us now” and that now my first response to a charge of antisemitism from the ADL is “those toadies to fascism want to shut down another protest against genocide”.
The danger of this kind of thing happening was loudly and repeatedly pointed out by leftist Jews, but the ADL and their ilk had their playbook and they were going to stick with it.
posted by Lemkin at 6:56 AM on March 29 [9 favorites]
I don't know if they're Jewish, but someone there just scolded people who didn't want to vote for Harris.
It was a politics linkage that I had a problem with.
posted by Lemkin at 8:44 AM on March 29 [3 favorites]
It was a politics linkage that I had a problem with.
posted by Lemkin at 8:44 AM on March 29 [3 favorites]
the problem of non-Jews insisting on linking it with politics
A fine impulse, but in what way was that post intended to be an apolitical discussion? The framing isn't great for a discussion about antisemitism if it's intended to be divorced from the same Israel/Palestine arguments that have been derailing it all over the place.
posted by fight or flight at 8:51 AM on March 29 [1 favorite]
A fine impulse, but in what way was that post intended to be an apolitical discussion? The framing isn't great for a discussion about antisemitism if it's intended to be divorced from the same Israel/Palestine arguments that have been derailing it all over the place.
posted by fight or flight at 8:51 AM on March 29 [1 favorite]
if you can’t see how the ADL is urgently implicated in this, I’m sorry, you’re either willfully ignorant or have no idea what’s actually going on and what the complex nature of the threat is. You pick.
If you can't see how turning every discussion of anti-semitism into a place to partially blame Jews, I’m sorry, you’re either willfully ignorant or have no idea what’s actually going on and what the complex nature of the threat is. You pick.
posted by gwint at 9:03 AM on March 29 [4 favorites]
If you can't see how turning every discussion of anti-semitism into a place to partially blame Jews, I’m sorry, you’re either willfully ignorant or have no idea what’s actually going on and what the complex nature of the threat is. You pick.
posted by gwint at 9:03 AM on March 29 [4 favorites]
I regret that fighty framing, my apologies. Shit is just fucked up out there.
posted by gwint at 10:00 AM on March 29 [2 favorites]
posted by gwint at 10:00 AM on March 29 [2 favorites]
I think a big part of the problem is that this Internet forum is so profoundly lacking in racial diversity that the only form of marginalization you all understand or recognize at all is anti-Semitism (because it impacts some racialized white people--certainly not that BIPOC Jews don't exist, they do and they are constantly used as a rhetorical prop here).
While you have good points otherwise, this framing is incredibly disingenous and, honestly, offensive. I'm not sure you realise how much. Jewish "whiteness" is always conditional, always based on which side wants to shit on us (the left calls us white when they want to accuse us of things we have no power over; the right calls us not white when they want to exclude or other us). Leaning in to this conditional framing to claim that Metafilter only cares about antisemitism because some of us are "white", while also seemingly blaming us(?) for the condition of American politics, is pretty over the line, and totally undermines the rest of your comment.
Once again, I'd love if non-Jews did not do shit like this. But maybe that's asking too much of Metafilter in this moment.
posted by fight or flight at 12:42 PM on March 29 [10 favorites]
While you have good points otherwise, this framing is incredibly disingenous and, honestly, offensive. I'm not sure you realise how much. Jewish "whiteness" is always conditional, always based on which side wants to shit on us (the left calls us white when they want to accuse us of things we have no power over; the right calls us not white when they want to exclude or other us). Leaning in to this conditional framing to claim that Metafilter only cares about antisemitism because some of us are "white", while also seemingly blaming us(?) for the condition of American politics, is pretty over the line, and totally undermines the rest of your comment.
Once again, I'd love if non-Jews did not do shit like this. But maybe that's asking too much of Metafilter in this moment.
posted by fight or flight at 12:42 PM on March 29 [10 favorites]
For anyone keeping score: knock my sock and i'll clean your clock just buttoned.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:10 PM on March 29 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:10 PM on March 29 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure if this post has contributed to the welfare of the site.
posted by Lemkin at 1:29 PM on March 29 [6 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 1:29 PM on March 29 [6 favorites]
"Can you please be specific when mentioning antisemitism? What was the exact quote? Was it said online or at a protest? Who was saying it? Was it reported or did you witness it?"
I don't memorize them or screencap them for future reference, but a recent incident that stuck in my memory because of how ludicrous it was is one of my Jewish friends was in a Facebook argument about something that had absolutely nothing to do with Israel/Palestine or being Jewish, and the person they were arguing with noticed they were Jewish and started peppering a bunch of anti-Jewish insults into their comments. "Bagel-muncher" is the only one I'm willing to repeat because how the hell is that supposed to be a slur? Bagels are objectively delicious.
I see this happening so damn often that it's difficult to remember specific incidents because they all just blend together. It takes something as ridiculous as "bagel-muncher" to stand out in my memory.
Oh, here's something I still remember because I saw it only an hour ago: https://www.facebook.com/share/18jcfTFZeQ/
It's fucking everywhere online. I see at least a dozen examples a week.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:41 PM on March 29 [2 favorites]
I don't memorize them or screencap them for future reference, but a recent incident that stuck in my memory because of how ludicrous it was is one of my Jewish friends was in a Facebook argument about something that had absolutely nothing to do with Israel/Palestine or being Jewish, and the person they were arguing with noticed they were Jewish and started peppering a bunch of anti-Jewish insults into their comments. "Bagel-muncher" is the only one I'm willing to repeat because how the hell is that supposed to be a slur? Bagels are objectively delicious.
I see this happening so damn often that it's difficult to remember specific incidents because they all just blend together. It takes something as ridiculous as "bagel-muncher" to stand out in my memory.
Oh, here's something I still remember because I saw it only an hour ago: https://www.facebook.com/share/18jcfTFZeQ/
It's fucking everywhere online. I see at least a dozen examples a week.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:41 PM on March 29 [2 favorites]
I would honestly be shocked if they had anything to do with anti-Semitism or my racism against you.
So would I. Instead, I think it comes from ignorance, which I'm not blaming you for at all. Just pointing out that your language is playing into some pretty unproductive (and historically offensive) lines of thinking.
calling a Muslim desi American person a "Gentile" in a way that assumes that that label has any kind of valence just seems absurd
Cool, which is why I would call such a person "non-Jewish" because they are, as described, not Jewish. I wouldn't walk into a post about the Muslim desi American experience and start proclaiming about my experience as a trans queer European Jew, because that would be completely unrelated.
Like I'm sorry your whiteness is conditional dude. I never had any to begin with.
Okay, I'm not sure what you're trying to do here, besides derailling a post that isn't about you and trying to make it about you.
posted by fight or flight at 1:45 PM on March 29 [3 favorites]
So would I. Instead, I think it comes from ignorance, which I'm not blaming you for at all. Just pointing out that your language is playing into some pretty unproductive (and historically offensive) lines of thinking.
calling a Muslim desi American person a "Gentile" in a way that assumes that that label has any kind of valence just seems absurd
Cool, which is why I would call such a person "non-Jewish" because they are, as described, not Jewish. I wouldn't walk into a post about the Muslim desi American experience and start proclaiming about my experience as a trans queer European Jew, because that would be completely unrelated.
Like I'm sorry your whiteness is conditional dude. I never had any to begin with.
Okay, I'm not sure what you're trying to do here, besides derailling a post that isn't about you and trying to make it about you.
posted by fight or flight at 1:45 PM on March 29 [3 favorites]
Jacqueline said, "Oh, here's something I still remember because I saw it only an hour ago: [link]
It's fucking everywhere online. I see at least a dozen examples a week."
So wait— when you said "the speed at which antisemitic hate speech and otherwise attacking Jewish people simply for being Jewish has become 'acceptable' in otherwise progressive communities," you were talking about Facebook? Or other opaque social media platforms (Instagram, FB, Twitter, etc.)?
You can't just extrapolate your experience of social media trolls like that. We know those algorithms are designed to enrage people to keep them online. I'm sure right wing reactionaries on Facebook are fed a diet of posts by edgy left wing trans people, but that doesn't mean the queers are taking over.
posted by ftrtts at 1:54 PM on March 29 [9 favorites]
It's fucking everywhere online. I see at least a dozen examples a week."
So wait— when you said "the speed at which antisemitic hate speech and otherwise attacking Jewish people simply for being Jewish has become 'acceptable' in otherwise progressive communities," you were talking about Facebook? Or other opaque social media platforms (Instagram, FB, Twitter, etc.)?
You can't just extrapolate your experience of social media trolls like that. We know those algorithms are designed to enrage people to keep them online. I'm sure right wing reactionaries on Facebook are fed a diet of posts by edgy left wing trans people, but that doesn't mean the queers are taking over.
posted by ftrtts at 1:54 PM on March 29 [9 favorites]
"So wait— when you said "the speed at which antisemitic hate speech and otherwise attacking Jewish people simply for being Jewish has become 'acceptable' in otherwise progressive communities," you were talking about Facebook? Or other opaque social media platforms (Instagram, FB, Twitter, etc.)?"
It showed up in my feed because Facebook friends whom I thought were progressive or left-libertarian are laugh reacting the post and the antisemitic comments.
"You can't just extrapolate your experience of social media trolls like that. We know those algorithms are designed to enrage people to keep them online. I'm sure right wing reactionaries on Facebook are fed a diet of posts by edgy left wing trans people, but that doesn't mean the queers are taking over."
I can extrapolate from the fact that the post is a week old -- plenty of time for the comments to have been reported and deleted as hate speech -- that the Facebook moderators have decided that all those antisemitic comments don't violate community standards.
Meanwhile, my trans friends' posts aren't being pushed into conservatives' feeds because most of my trans friends keep getting banned or shadow banned for trying to defend themselves against hate speech.
posted by Jacqueline at 2:04 PM on March 29
It showed up in my feed because Facebook friends whom I thought were progressive or left-libertarian are laugh reacting the post and the antisemitic comments.
"You can't just extrapolate your experience of social media trolls like that. We know those algorithms are designed to enrage people to keep them online. I'm sure right wing reactionaries on Facebook are fed a diet of posts by edgy left wing trans people, but that doesn't mean the queers are taking over."
I can extrapolate from the fact that the post is a week old -- plenty of time for the comments to have been reported and deleted as hate speech -- that the Facebook moderators have decided that all those antisemitic comments don't violate community standards.
Meanwhile, my trans friends' posts aren't being pushed into conservatives' feeds because most of my trans friends keep getting banned or shadow banned for trying to defend themselves against hate speech.
posted by Jacqueline at 2:04 PM on March 29
Anyhow, my broader point is that antisemitism is so prevalent online that I found it plausible that it also exists here -- believing that MetaFilter is not magically immune to the same forces affecting most other online communities is basically just the null hypothesis -- and thus I helped facilitate creating a space to talk about that issue since the person who first tried to initiate this conversation had been censored.
posted by Jacqueline at 2:09 PM on March 29 [2 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 2:09 PM on March 29 [2 favorites]
I've always noticed how extremely white and homogenous it was
Object lesson for this thread: see how quickly Jewish people get lumped in with white people in order to belittle and silence us, even in posts that are supposed to be here for us to discuss our experiences? Just something to think about.
I've tried so so hard to make this website more receptive to folks like me
Your account was made today. Or did you have another account and this is a new one?
posted by fight or flight at 2:09 PM on March 29 [3 favorites]
Object lesson for this thread: see how quickly Jewish people get lumped in with white people in order to belittle and silence us, even in posts that are supposed to be here for us to discuss our experiences? Just something to think about.
I've tried so so hard to make this website more receptive to folks like me
Your account was made today. Or did you have another account and this is a new one?
posted by fight or flight at 2:09 PM on March 29 [3 favorites]
"Object lesson for this thread: see how quickly Jewish people get lumped in with white people in order to belittle and silence us"
The show Northern Exposure had a great rant from Dr. Joel Fleishman about how he was not "white" despite his skin color.
I really wish I could find that scene on YouTube because the way he explained the distinction between Jewish people and "white" people and why it was harmful to conflate the two was powerful enough to stick with me for 30+ years.
I might try to dig it up and excerpt the clip myself because I've noticed that stylized arguments from fictional characters sometimes get through to people in a way that all the academic reading and real-world conversations don't.
posted by Jacqueline at 2:19 PM on March 29
The show Northern Exposure had a great rant from Dr. Joel Fleishman about how he was not "white" despite his skin color.
I really wish I could find that scene on YouTube because the way he explained the distinction between Jewish people and "white" people and why it was harmful to conflate the two was powerful enough to stick with me for 30+ years.
I might try to dig it up and excerpt the clip myself because I've noticed that stylized arguments from fictional characters sometimes get through to people in a way that all the academic reading and real-world conversations don't.
posted by Jacqueline at 2:19 PM on March 29
Lemkin: "I'm not sure if this post has contributed to the welfare of the site."
knock my sock's attempt to create a space for discussion of antisemitism is, in my view, a much better space
Sorry they buttoned
posted by ginger.beef at 2:34 PM on March 29 [9 favorites]
knock my sock's attempt to create a space for discussion of antisemitism is, in my view, a much better space
Sorry they buttoned
posted by ginger.beef at 2:34 PM on March 29 [9 favorites]
I've read this whole thread and as a Jewish person, I still don't understand what people mean by "the I/P crowd" here or elsewhere. This is too oblique for me. Is "I/P" "Israel/Palestine," and is the "crowd" people who are talking about both or either, or people who have a specific perspective on either or both?
posted by limeonaire at 2:36 PM on March 29 [2 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 2:36 PM on March 29 [2 favorites]
limeonaire: "I've read this whole thread and as a Jewish person, I still don't understand what people mean by "the I/P crowd" here or elsewhere. This is too oblique for me. Is "I/P" "Israel/Palestine," and is the "crowd" people who are talking about both or either, or people who have a specific perspective on either or both?"
limeonaire, perhaps Violet Blue can respond
I don't think it's a useful descriptor, and if I say more my comments will grow increasingly intemperate
posted by ginger.beef at 2:40 PM on March 29 [4 favorites]
limeonaire, perhaps Violet Blue can respond
I don't think it's a useful descriptor, and if I say more my comments will grow increasingly intemperate
posted by ginger.beef at 2:40 PM on March 29 [4 favorites]
Dr. Joel Fleishman about how he was not "white" despite his skin color.
Robert Morrow (who played Dr. Fleishman) is from the community where I grew up. When I was a kid in elementary school, we had this string of crimes where someone spray-painted swastikas on Jewish people's houses. I remember attending a community assembly about it. I have some family who still live there, and every few years, something like this happens again. Most recently, it was on several storefronts in several different towns.
I can also tell you that colorism is a real thing in this community. As a dark-skinned 1st generation immigrant, I think my experience was very different than my white-passing friends, especially with government institutions and the police.
This a highly complex thing to talk about, and I think it's a discussion that deserves a lot of care that it doesn't seem to be capable of getting here on Metatalk.
posted by malum geminae at 2:42 PM on March 29 [12 favorites]
Robert Morrow (who played Dr. Fleishman) is from the community where I grew up. When I was a kid in elementary school, we had this string of crimes where someone spray-painted swastikas on Jewish people's houses. I remember attending a community assembly about it. I have some family who still live there, and every few years, something like this happens again. Most recently, it was on several storefronts in several different towns.
I can also tell you that colorism is a real thing in this community. As a dark-skinned 1st generation immigrant, I think my experience was very different than my white-passing friends, especially with government institutions and the police.
This a highly complex thing to talk about, and I think it's a discussion that deserves a lot of care that it doesn't seem to be capable of getting here on Metatalk.
posted by malum geminae at 2:42 PM on March 29 [12 favorites]
"Can you please be specific when mentioning antisemitism? What was the exact quote? Was it said online or at a protest? Who was saying it? Was it reported or did you witness it?"
That seems like a really Sealioning, hostile as fuck, and generally meanspirited approach.
I have not personally witnessed any acts of overt racism in my own leftist circles. But that doesn't mean they don't exist. The Left has an unfortunate history of including and sheltering antisemitism, I wish it didn't but that's the reality. I doubt the same brosocialists who scream idpol at anyone who brings up feminism or racism are innocent of antisemitic bullshit.
In the thread that started all this, we did get someone responding to a Jew who mentioned attacks on their shul saying that "if" the attack had happened and "if" it had happened for religious reasons then sure it was antisemitism. Note that the framing is hostile, is rooted in a belief that the person who spoke was lying, and only makes sense if you assume there's a lot of people claiming that antisemitism happened when it really didn't. Frankly it reminded me a lot of how some on the religious right talk about rape.
It looked pretty damn antisemitic to me.
So yeah. While I think there are definitely false accusations of antisemitism thrown around by people looking to deflect from Israel's misdeeds, but there's also the real thing out there and it's not something we should be tolerating. Any more than we tolerate misogyny and racism.
I do think that it's impossible to separate what Israel is doing from antisemitism. That's not fair or right. But I can also see how it'd get wearysome to always talk about that if you're a Jew.
posted by sotonohito at 2:49 PM on March 29 [12 favorites]
That seems like a really Sealioning, hostile as fuck, and generally meanspirited approach.
I have not personally witnessed any acts of overt racism in my own leftist circles. But that doesn't mean they don't exist. The Left has an unfortunate history of including and sheltering antisemitism, I wish it didn't but that's the reality. I doubt the same brosocialists who scream idpol at anyone who brings up feminism or racism are innocent of antisemitic bullshit.
In the thread that started all this, we did get someone responding to a Jew who mentioned attacks on their shul saying that "if" the attack had happened and "if" it had happened for religious reasons then sure it was antisemitism. Note that the framing is hostile, is rooted in a belief that the person who spoke was lying, and only makes sense if you assume there's a lot of people claiming that antisemitism happened when it really didn't. Frankly it reminded me a lot of how some on the religious right talk about rape.
It looked pretty damn antisemitic to me.
So yeah. While I think there are definitely false accusations of antisemitism thrown around by people looking to deflect from Israel's misdeeds, but there's also the real thing out there and it's not something we should be tolerating. Any more than we tolerate misogyny and racism.
I do think that it's impossible to separate what Israel is doing from antisemitism. That's not fair or right. But I can also see how it'd get wearysome to always talk about that if you're a Jew.
posted by sotonohito at 2:49 PM on March 29 [12 favorites]
knock my sock and i'll clean your clock has apparently gotten an account wipe now, too.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:11 PM on March 29
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:11 PM on March 29
I have not personally witnessed any acts of overt racism in my own leftist circles. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that antisemitism doesn't exist. I asked that we be specific when discussing antisemitism. Sometimes people use "antisemitism" to mean chanting "from the river to the sea." That is not antisemitism. If more people are doing that, it doesn't mean there's more antisemitism at protests; it means there are more anti-Zionists.
posted by ftrtts at 3:28 PM on March 29 [8 favorites]
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that antisemitism doesn't exist. I asked that we be specific when discussing antisemitism. Sometimes people use "antisemitism" to mean chanting "from the river to the sea." That is not antisemitism. If more people are doing that, it doesn't mean there's more antisemitism at protests; it means there are more anti-Zionists.
posted by ftrtts at 3:28 PM on March 29 [8 favorites]
I understand the difference between antisemitism and anti-Zionism. Most of my Jewish friends are actually anti-Zionists themselves.
When I say antisemitism, I mean actual antisemitism. Even my anti-Zionist Jewish friends are being targeted with antisemitic hate speech now.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:54 PM on March 29
When I say antisemitism, I mean actual antisemitism. Even my anti-Zionist Jewish friends are being targeted with antisemitic hate speech now.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:54 PM on March 29
We always have been, Jacqueline. It’s not new, it’s just that a while back we’d get it from non-Jews and turn around and be disrespected or ignored by our fellow Jews who were bought into the Zionist cause, as well.
posted by Mizu at 4:57 PM on March 29 [5 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 4:57 PM on March 29 [5 favorites]
sotohonito said, "In the thread that started all this, we did get someone responding to a Jew who mentioned attacks on their shul saying that "if" the attack had happened and "if" it had happened for religious reasons then sure it was antisemitism. Note that the framing is hostile, is rooted in a belief that the person who spoke was lying, and only makes sense if you assume there's a lot of people claiming that antisemitism happened when it really didn't. Frankly it reminded me a lot of how some on the religious right talk about rape."
That is exactly what's happening.
Regarding attacks on synagogues in particular:
That is exactly what's happening.
Regarding attacks on synagogues in particular:
"In reassessing those 8,873 antisemitic incidents using the JDA, we found that 4,948—a little over half—were straightforwardly antisemitic according to the facts provided by the ADL. These included more than a thousand bomb threats against synagogues and Jewish organizations and hundreds of cases of interpersonal antisemitic comments or slurs."So yes, straightforwardly antisemitic in many cases. However:
"The ADL also frequently recorded incidents in which anti-Israel or anti-Zionist messages were directed at Jewish organizations, sometimes without specifying the organization in question. For example, on November 26th, the words “Israel, shame on you” were painted on the sidewalk in front of a Los Angeles “Jewish organization.” This act certainly could be antisemitic if the organization in question is an institution of regular Jewish life—like a synagogue, day school, or Jewish nonprofit—suggesting that the signage is directed at Jewish people as such, and thus that Jews are collectively responsible for Israel’s actions. But if the message is directed specifically at an advocate of Israeli state policy, it would not necessarily be antisemitic.posted by ftrtts at 5:16 PM on March 29 [2 favorites]
The ADL audit methodology says they include anti-Israel messages if they target any non-political institution and only include incidents directed at a pro-Israel political organization if the content is straightforwardly antisemitic (for example, employing swastikas or anti-Jewish slurs). But this assessment is complicated by the fact that some general Jewish organizations do post pro-Israel signage outside, host Israeli politicians, or put on pro-Israel events such that protests against them may be responding to specific political messaging. The audit often doesn’t give enough information to determine whether this is the case."
"We always have been, Jacqueline. It’s not new"
Yeah, I mean that people who normally would have pushed back on antisemitic hate speech in the past are now excusing or even repeating it because "what Israel is doing is worse" as if that means antisemitism is now okay?
I don't get the mentality that "person in group X did something to piss me off so I'm going to use anti-X slurs now."
It reminds me of how some people who normally act like they're trans allies deliberately misgender Caitlyn Jenner because she supported Trump. I don't get it. Just call her a dumb bitch. There, you've insulted her for her politics while still affirming her gender.
It's not difficult to attack someone's actions and ideology while not attacking their identity, so whenever someone immediately reaches for identity-based insults, it makes me suspect that those thoughts and phrases must have already been in high rotation in their vocabulary to come so quickly to them.
So yeah, watching people who condemned all forms of bigotry in the past suddenly start spouting antisemitic hate speech and conspiracy theories alongside their anti-war rhetoric woke me up to how many people were closet bigots all along. It's a disappointingly large number.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:27 PM on March 29
Yeah, I mean that people who normally would have pushed back on antisemitic hate speech in the past are now excusing or even repeating it because "what Israel is doing is worse" as if that means antisemitism is now okay?
I don't get the mentality that "person in group X did something to piss me off so I'm going to use anti-X slurs now."
It reminds me of how some people who normally act like they're trans allies deliberately misgender Caitlyn Jenner because she supported Trump. I don't get it. Just call her a dumb bitch. There, you've insulted her for her politics while still affirming her gender.
It's not difficult to attack someone's actions and ideology while not attacking their identity, so whenever someone immediately reaches for identity-based insults, it makes me suspect that those thoughts and phrases must have already been in high rotation in their vocabulary to come so quickly to them.
So yeah, watching people who condemned all forms of bigotry in the past suddenly start spouting antisemitic hate speech and conspiracy theories alongside their anti-war rhetoric woke me up to how many people were closet bigots all along. It's a disappointingly large number.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:27 PM on March 29
Like I'm sitting here feeling like an idiot, "oh... so the rest of you were just pretending all along???? I thought we were all against this stuff for realsies."
posted by Jacqueline at 5:34 PM on March 29 [1 favorite]
posted by Jacqueline at 5:34 PM on March 29 [1 favorite]
Jacqueline, what do your recent comments have to do with your framing of this topic vis a vis the post title
One of the problems with the topic, as many have pointed out with ample evidence, is the chilling effect and deliberate redirection when talking about antisemitism. If antisemitism is a problem in MetaFilter, let's focus on that
You know what I think is a problem? Recent buttonings. The *other* recent post on this topic, on the blue, is submitted by Anonymous and that sucks.
posted by ginger.beef at 8:35 PM on March 29 [9 favorites]
One of the problems with the topic, as many have pointed out with ample evidence, is the chilling effect and deliberate redirection when talking about antisemitism. If antisemitism is a problem in MetaFilter, let's focus on that
You know what I think is a problem? Recent buttonings. The *other* recent post on this topic, on the blue, is submitted by Anonymous and that sucks.
posted by ginger.beef at 8:35 PM on March 29 [9 favorites]
Just to put it out there: If you look at past discussions of this topic on Metatalk, one thing you’ll notice is that the vast majority (not that there were a ton of them to begin with) of folks who publicly identified as observant, religious Jews have long since stopped participating on this site. Most of those who remain here who claim Jewish identity have politics that are more in line with Jewish Voice for Peace. Which is fine, people feel how they feel and shouldn’t pretend otherwise, even if I hope there is an acknowledgement that Metafilter isn’t exactly representative of mainstream Jewish opinion (if there even is such a thing). This would also explain the “there is nothing to see here why was this even posted?” reaction to this Meta.
posted by The Gooch at 8:19 AM on March 30 [6 favorites]
posted by The Gooch at 8:19 AM on March 30 [6 favorites]
the vast majority (not that there were a ton of them to begin with) of folks who publicly identified as observant, religious Jews have long since stopped participating on this site
Anecdata: Ask MeFi is attracting questions from people asking how they can eliminate the subject of Israel from their seders.
posted by Lemkin at 8:37 AM on March 30 [1 favorite]
Anecdata: Ask MeFi is attracting questions from people asking how they can eliminate the subject of Israel from their seders.
posted by Lemkin at 8:37 AM on March 30 [1 favorite]
"The ADL audit methodology says they include anti-Israel messages if they target any non-political institution and only include incidents directed at a pro-Israel political organization if the content is straightforwardly antisemitic (for example, employing swastikas or anti-Jewish slurs). But this assessment is complicated by the fact that some general Jewish organizations do post pro-Israel signage outside, host Israeli politicians, or put on pro-Israel events such that protests against them may be responding to specific political messaging. The audit often doesn’t give enough information to determine whether this is the case."
To me this highlights that part of the problem here is something that is not unique to this topic, and that's the fact that for a variety of reasons (Internet culture, political polarization, etc.) there does seem to be more binary thinking - in the US certainly, but not only here. It's how we have BDS adding the documentary No Other Land to its list of things to boycott. It's how if you accept the UN report that sexual violence occurred on Oct 7 in a leftist space, there's a good chance you'll get accused of supporting genocide. I have long been deeply opposed to what Israel has and is doing to Palestinians - nothing justifies it. But that doesn't mean the binary thinking on this hasn't impacted my interest in discussing it here. I don't assume people engaged in this sort of binary thinking hate Jews, I just think they probably spend too much time online and/or aren't great at critical thinking.
Relatedly, here and elsewhere there has been a flattening as all Zionism as equally toxic. Jewish Voice for Peace does this too, as does the quoted text (from Jewish Currents). Again, I don't assume that hatred is the key motivator here -but I do think it's bad politics to view as a legit target for vandalism a synagogue just because it has some "pro-Israel signage." To give a local example, the JCC near me does an annual Jewish Food Festival - all proceeds from the event go towards their food bank, which anyone can access. This year, the employees at a bagel shop pressured the owner (who isn't Jewish) to not participate because the JCC is Zionist. And yeah, like any Jewish Community Center, this JCC is going to aim to be a big tent for all local Jews - which in this case means their website encourages people to donate to a charity helping victims of Oct 7 finding housing, get therapy, etc. Sure, the JCC is Zionist, but they aren't training members to join the IDF or sending bombs - making them the target of your activism seems an odd choice when say, we have two GOP senators, as well as Dem Congresswoman who was part of a recent friendly delegation to Israel. The general consensus on the local Reddit page was that boycotting a charity event that aims to raise money for feeding poor people just makes you look like a jerk, so it's hard to see how this boycott helped the Palestinian cause.
posted by coffeecat at 9:28 AM on March 30 [7 favorites]
To me this highlights that part of the problem here is something that is not unique to this topic, and that's the fact that for a variety of reasons (Internet culture, political polarization, etc.) there does seem to be more binary thinking - in the US certainly, but not only here. It's how we have BDS adding the documentary No Other Land to its list of things to boycott. It's how if you accept the UN report that sexual violence occurred on Oct 7 in a leftist space, there's a good chance you'll get accused of supporting genocide. I have long been deeply opposed to what Israel has and is doing to Palestinians - nothing justifies it. But that doesn't mean the binary thinking on this hasn't impacted my interest in discussing it here. I don't assume people engaged in this sort of binary thinking hate Jews, I just think they probably spend too much time online and/or aren't great at critical thinking.
Relatedly, here and elsewhere there has been a flattening as all Zionism as equally toxic. Jewish Voice for Peace does this too, as does the quoted text (from Jewish Currents). Again, I don't assume that hatred is the key motivator here -but I do think it's bad politics to view as a legit target for vandalism a synagogue just because it has some "pro-Israel signage." To give a local example, the JCC near me does an annual Jewish Food Festival - all proceeds from the event go towards their food bank, which anyone can access. This year, the employees at a bagel shop pressured the owner (who isn't Jewish) to not participate because the JCC is Zionist. And yeah, like any Jewish Community Center, this JCC is going to aim to be a big tent for all local Jews - which in this case means their website encourages people to donate to a charity helping victims of Oct 7 finding housing, get therapy, etc. Sure, the JCC is Zionist, but they aren't training members to join the IDF or sending bombs - making them the target of your activism seems an odd choice when say, we have two GOP senators, as well as Dem Congresswoman who was part of a recent friendly delegation to Israel. The general consensus on the local Reddit page was that boycotting a charity event that aims to raise money for feeding poor people just makes you look like a jerk, so it's hard to see how this boycott helped the Palestinian cause.
posted by coffeecat at 9:28 AM on March 30 [7 favorites]
ftrtts I think the ADL may well be faking, or inflating, numbers. But assuming for the sake of argument that's true, it doesn't justify someone aggressively going at a person here on metafilter who reported that their synagogue was attacked. If the ADL said it, sure maybe it's valid to question, but unless you're suspecting the ADL of planting agents in Metafilter then that kind of aggressive hostile questioning when someone says their religious building was attacked seems to either be antisemitism or at least antisemitism adjacent.
coffeecat I flatten all Zionism to meaningless noise. The term is used in such radically different ways you might as well say Blargism because it would convey exactly as much information.
When someone says "I am a Zionist" it doesn't say anything at all about what they believe, everyone from foaming at the mouth murder happy "settlers" in the West Bank to people at Jewish Voice for Peace says they're a Zionist. Which means there's no point in using that word. Kind of like how "freedom" means nothing in American political discourse because it's defined so many different ways.
As for being a "big tent" it's impossible. When a group says it welcomes and supports a a group radically opposed to another it also says it welcomes and supports, then the weaker or less socially powerful group is not welcome.
You cannot have a church that says "we're open to all" that invites in both Klansmen and Black people. Once the Klansmen show up the Black people will leave, it's inevitable.
Eventually everyone winds up picking a side, even if only by accident and in the misguided belief that they can somehow avoid picking a side, and when they pick a side by default they'll be picking the most aggressive and powerful side. But there is no such thing as open to all. It's impossible.
This, of course, will spur yelling about purity culture and litmus tests and so on from the bad people, and the average uninvolved person will see the people who leave as troublemakers who just can't tolerate some different opinions.
posted by sotonohito at 1:40 PM on March 30 [3 favorites]
coffeecat I flatten all Zionism to meaningless noise. The term is used in such radically different ways you might as well say Blargism because it would convey exactly as much information.
When someone says "I am a Zionist" it doesn't say anything at all about what they believe, everyone from foaming at the mouth murder happy "settlers" in the West Bank to people at Jewish Voice for Peace says they're a Zionist. Which means there's no point in using that word. Kind of like how "freedom" means nothing in American political discourse because it's defined so many different ways.
As for being a "big tent" it's impossible. When a group says it welcomes and supports a a group radically opposed to another it also says it welcomes and supports, then the weaker or less socially powerful group is not welcome.
You cannot have a church that says "we're open to all" that invites in both Klansmen and Black people. Once the Klansmen show up the Black people will leave, it's inevitable.
Eventually everyone winds up picking a side, even if only by accident and in the misguided belief that they can somehow avoid picking a side, and when they pick a side by default they'll be picking the most aggressive and powerful side. But there is no such thing as open to all. It's impossible.
This, of course, will spur yelling about purity culture and litmus tests and so on from the bad people, and the average uninvolved person will see the people who leave as troublemakers who just can't tolerate some different opinions.
posted by sotonohito at 1:40 PM on March 30 [3 favorites]
ftrtts I think the ADL may well be faking, or inflating, numbers. But assuming for the sake of argument that's true
The antisemitism audit actually concludes that they might be undercounting:
The antisemitism audit actually concludes that they might be undercounting:
However, the more time we spent with the ADL’s antisemitism audit, the clearer it became that the dataset itself is severely structurally limited—and may significantly undercount right-wing antisemitic incidents. One fundamental problem is the way that the audit’s data is separated from other categories on the H.E.A.T. Map: White nationalist incidents that don’t explicitly name Jews are tracked as White Supremacist Propaganda or White Supremacist Events but not as Antisemitic Incidents, leaving them out of the audit. There’s a strong case to be made that all such incidents should also be included in the audit, even if they do not include explicit antisemitism. (Our cursory survey of those other datasets did turn up explicitly antisemitic incidents that should have appeared in the audit based on the current methodology, like an instance of Patriot Front passing out flyers with the Nazi slogan “blood and soil” and references to antisemitic websites, as well as a handful of overtly anti-Jewish events hosted by the virulently antisemitic GDL.) As activist Erik K. Ward has argued, antisemitism is not just a feature but the “theoretical core” of modern American white nationalism; advancement of their cause is necessarily the advancement of an ideologically committed, antisemitic political project. If we added the additional White Supremacist Propaganda and White Supremacist Events entries that were not originally included in the antisemitism audit to the ADL’s overall count, it would bring the total number of antisemitic incidents to 15,564. Since we found that most alleged antisemitic incidents in the Palestine solidarity movement lacked merit, the legitimately antisemitic Palestine-related incidents would appear as mere statistical noise when compared with the stunning growth of organized white nationalism.posted by ftrtts at 2:19 PM on March 30 [3 favorites]
I'd always understood that comments on MetaFilter posts should in some way reflect the post itself. The Rogan post concentrated heavily on Trump, but the dominant voices in the thread felt so passionately about ADF that it never came up. That complete refusal to respect what a thread may actually be about is absolutely antisemitic in the sense that it is against some Jewish people discussing topics in ways that don't reflect the beliefs and passions of other Jewish and nonJewish people.
The obvious way to keep peace is for the mods to spend more time either keeping people on topic or redirecting their energy into other threads. But neither has been happening, so those of us who aren't passionate about the types of issues already cited here — I/P issues, the American Jewish far right, ADF, etc. — keep getting mowed over.
Recently, I was infuriated when someone mocked Israel's existence as a country. From the perspective of Jewish safety, Jews with roots in multiple regions — Ashkenazi (Europe), Sephardic (Iberian Peninsula), Misrahi (Arab World) — have gone there seeking safety and religion in roughly equal numbers. (About half of all Israelis are secular.) There are both historic and contemporary reasons for that, which is why, to me, that mockery, is antisemitic — literally antiJewish — in its blatant disrespect for the choices Jews have made to stay safe. The mods, however, disagreed with me. To me, that feels like a political decision, and not a particularly respectful one.
Now if you want to read some form of Zionism (whatever the hell you mean by that, as Sotonohito points out) or Bari Weissism into that opinion, that is your right. But it isn't based on anything I have said. Mostly, I'm concerned with the ability of people to feel safe whoever they are and, in my judgment, Donald Trump's administration poses a greater threat to Jewish safety than just about anyone else.
Trump’s cuts to counter-terror defense this year are expected to undermine the fight against US antisemitism. So is his release of the leadership of the Proud Boys and the Oathkeepers. One of his favorite OANN anchors is a known antisemite. The Great Replacement Theory is also antisemitic. The London School of Economics opines that Trump’s pardons suggest he will run a far-right government with paramilitary backing. Way back in 2018, in fact, an analysis of 33,000 Twitter accounts concluded that Trump Is the Glue That Binds the Far Right.
posted by Violet Blue at 3:56 PM on March 30 [2 favorites]
The obvious way to keep peace is for the mods to spend more time either keeping people on topic or redirecting their energy into other threads. But neither has been happening, so those of us who aren't passionate about the types of issues already cited here — I/P issues, the American Jewish far right, ADF, etc. — keep getting mowed over.
Recently, I was infuriated when someone mocked Israel's existence as a country. From the perspective of Jewish safety, Jews with roots in multiple regions — Ashkenazi (Europe), Sephardic (Iberian Peninsula), Misrahi (Arab World) — have gone there seeking safety and religion in roughly equal numbers. (About half of all Israelis are secular.) There are both historic and contemporary reasons for that, which is why, to me, that mockery, is antisemitic — literally antiJewish — in its blatant disrespect for the choices Jews have made to stay safe. The mods, however, disagreed with me. To me, that feels like a political decision, and not a particularly respectful one.
Now if you want to read some form of Zionism (whatever the hell you mean by that, as Sotonohito points out) or Bari Weissism into that opinion, that is your right. But it isn't based on anything I have said. Mostly, I'm concerned with the ability of people to feel safe whoever they are and, in my judgment, Donald Trump's administration poses a greater threat to Jewish safety than just about anyone else.
Trump’s cuts to counter-terror defense this year are expected to undermine the fight against US antisemitism. So is his release of the leadership of the Proud Boys and the Oathkeepers. One of his favorite OANN anchors is a known antisemite. The Great Replacement Theory is also antisemitic. The London School of Economics opines that Trump’s pardons suggest he will run a far-right government with paramilitary backing. Way back in 2018, in fact, an analysis of 33,000 Twitter accounts concluded that Trump Is the Glue That Binds the Far Right.
posted by Violet Blue at 3:56 PM on March 30 [2 favorites]
When someone says "I am a Zionist" it doesn't say anything at all about what they believe
Beyond you, there is no one on MetaFilter who I know by screen name that is more likely to make a comment whose politics agree completely with my own. So it discomforts me to say that I think that comment is ridiculous.
Merriam-Webster defines Zionism as "an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel". An uncontroversial definition, I should think.
So one can not say "I am a Zionist" without simultaneously saying "I support modern Israel". And if one supports modern Israel—knowing its history of apartheid and now genocide—they have crossed the moral event horizon. There is no point in nuancing the relative toxicity of their Zionism compared with anyone else's.
It will not do to posit a nice polite Zionism that nice polite Israelis could summon into being if enough of them voted for it. Zionism is at its core an expropriative and subjugating belief system that has no place in a just world. To publicly endorse it is to declare oneself an enemy to humanity.
posted by Lemkin at 4:43 PM on March 30 [10 favorites]
Beyond you, there is no one on MetaFilter who I know by screen name that is more likely to make a comment whose politics agree completely with my own. So it discomforts me to say that I think that comment is ridiculous.
Merriam-Webster defines Zionism as "an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel". An uncontroversial definition, I should think.
So one can not say "I am a Zionist" without simultaneously saying "I support modern Israel". And if one supports modern Israel—knowing its history of apartheid and now genocide—they have crossed the moral event horizon. There is no point in nuancing the relative toxicity of their Zionism compared with anyone else's.
It will not do to posit a nice polite Zionism that nice polite Israelis could summon into being if enough of them voted for it. Zionism is at its core an expropriative and subjugating belief system that has no place in a just world. To publicly endorse it is to declare oneself an enemy to humanity.
posted by Lemkin at 4:43 PM on March 30 [10 favorites]
Completely tangential here but this thread brought to mind all the I/P wars of the aughties and that brought to mind Postroad who was oftimes at the center of those I/Paloozas of yore. A nice guy in general but bring up Israel, Palestine or Middle East politics and it could get Kary bar the door crazy uncle at Thanksgiving time. Back then he was some retired guy with a soft core porn blog back then and from the evidence, while he hasn't been active here since 2017, he is still at it offsite -- which just amazes me: that guy is like the Forever 1.0 Energizer Bunny of the internet. He must be pushing 90 now. Finding out that he may be or indeed is still with us just brightened my day.
posted by y2karl at 7:38 PM on March 30 [5 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 7:38 PM on March 30 [5 favorites]
Lemkin, I think you have misunderstood something sotonohito is saying.
sotonohito is saying that there exist Jews who claim a term and are trying to reclaim it and define it differently compared to its mainstream meaning.
I recognize that you believe such a reclamation project is 100% impossible and even ludicrous, that the term is so inherently tainted that no reclamation is possible, and that endorsing the term at all lends credence to a movement you abhor. But are you also denying that there exist Jews who are, nonetheless, attempting that reclamation while holding views that are at odds with the mainstream meaning?
posted by brainwane at 3:29 AM on March 31 [4 favorites]
sotonohito is saying that there exist Jews who claim a term and are trying to reclaim it and define it differently compared to its mainstream meaning.
I recognize that you believe such a reclamation project is 100% impossible and even ludicrous, that the term is so inherently tainted that no reclamation is possible, and that endorsing the term at all lends credence to a movement you abhor. But are you also denying that there exist Jews who are, nonetheless, attempting that reclamation while holding views that are at odds with the mainstream meaning?
posted by brainwane at 3:29 AM on March 31 [4 favorites]
As an opponent of Israel I will not exceptionalise Israel. And as an opponent of Zionism I do not, will not, demonise Zionism. Demonisation reverts to the popular inspired myths of medieval Europe. It is the dark side of theology – and ultimately there is no other side. It is anti-secular. It is anti-Semitism: Jews as the hidden hand of history; Jews as the devil; Jews as the killer of god. The demonisation of Zionism simply transfers this to the killer of all of god’s people. It is the twenty first century equivalent of the blood libel accusation – the Jew as the murderer of Christian children and the drinker of their blood in order to acquire super-natural powers. This fantastic accusation has been responsible for a thousand years of pogroms. As Lenny Bruce used to joke – don’t the statute of limitations apply here? Just as the Jew of medieval Europe (and then Nazi Europe – there is a direct line) was depicted as all powerful, as being in possession of life’s secret mysteries, mysteries inaccessible to mere mortals but which determine the life and death (usually death) of all mortals – so Zionism is depicted as a supra-national force, more powerful politically than any other force on earth, and the cause of all war – from Iraq to Afghanistan. Next stop Iran!
Writing as a Jewish traitor - Steve Cohen
posted by malum geminae at 8:38 AM on March 31 [15 favorites]
Writing as a Jewish traitor - Steve Cohen
posted by malum geminae at 8:38 AM on March 31 [15 favorites]
I had to flag that.. sometimes a MeFite contributes a quote and I rarely flag a quote but that's just clear language and seems so.. powerfully valid.
Thanks malum geminae
posted by ginger.beef at 8:49 AM on March 31
Thanks malum geminae
posted by ginger.beef at 8:49 AM on March 31
I recognize that you believe such a reclamation project is 100% impossible and even ludicrous, that the term is so inherently tainted that no reclamation is possible
It has nothing to do with the degree of taintedness. Zionism is not a slur. It's a political project. The first Zionists self-identified as such. They also self-identified as settler colonisers. Can a Christian Zionist reclaim "Zionist"?
posted by ftrtts at 9:54 AM on March 31 [4 favorites]
It has nothing to do with the degree of taintedness. Zionism is not a slur. It's a political project. The first Zionists self-identified as such. They also self-identified as settler colonisers. Can a Christian Zionist reclaim "Zionist"?
posted by ftrtts at 9:54 AM on March 31 [4 favorites]
Recently, I was infuriated when someone mocked Israel's existence as a country. From the perspective of Jewish safety, Jews with roots in multiple regions — Ashkenazi (Europe), Sephardic (Iberian Peninsula), Misrahi (Arab World) — have gone there seeking safety and religion in roughly equal numbers. (About half of all Israelis are secular.) There are both historic and contemporary reasons for that, which is why, to me, that mockery, is antisemitic — literally antiJewish — in its blatant disrespect for the choices Jews have made to stay safe. The mods, however, disagreed with me. To me, that feels like a political decision, and not a particularly respectful one.
How does mocking the existence of an incredibly powerful, rich and militaristic country "disrespect choices jews have made to stay safe"?
The fact that marginalized groups chose an oppressive structure for safety - as demonstrated in many, many examples from history - does not make those structures holy, immune from criticism and mockery.
Your comment above reads as a literal, "polite" demand that in fact "antizionism is antisemitism"
I say this as a Jew.
posted by lalochezia at 10:29 AM on March 31 [17 favorites]
How does mocking the existence of an incredibly powerful, rich and militaristic country "disrespect choices jews have made to stay safe"?
The fact that marginalized groups chose an oppressive structure for safety - as demonstrated in many, many examples from history - does not make those structures holy, immune from criticism and mockery.
Your comment above reads as a literal, "polite" demand that in fact "antizionism is antisemitism"
I say this as a Jew.
posted by lalochezia at 10:29 AM on March 31 [17 favorites]
Violet Blue, I think you are mischaracterizing things or at the very least you are presenting a highly partial account
The first comment re: the ADL (you refer to the ADF repeatedly, above, and I believe you mean the ADL or Anti-Defamation League but please correct me if that's not the case) received a response from you within an hour of it being posted, and from what I can see it was your insistence on questioning even the legitimacy of that comment that resulted in the derail as much as anything.
I am thinking of all the ways a person could have responded, and based purely on my time here if someone wants to avoid a derail-y fracas they don't leap in and challenge the point made by the so-called derailer.
At this point I'm not debating the issue so much as: we are accountable for our actions, and we can all think about desired outcomes and what we can do to realize those outcomes. I also disagree with much of your perspective, but just looking at how things happen and how we might change a dynamic, that's all.
posted by ginger.beef at 11:04 AM on March 31 [7 favorites]
The first comment re: the ADL (you refer to the ADF repeatedly, above, and I believe you mean the ADL or Anti-Defamation League but please correct me if that's not the case) received a response from you within an hour of it being posted, and from what I can see it was your insistence on questioning even the legitimacy of that comment that resulted in the derail as much as anything.
I am thinking of all the ways a person could have responded, and based purely on my time here if someone wants to avoid a derail-y fracas they don't leap in and challenge the point made by the so-called derailer.
At this point I'm not debating the issue so much as: we are accountable for our actions, and we can all think about desired outcomes and what we can do to realize those outcomes. I also disagree with much of your perspective, but just looking at how things happen and how we might change a dynamic, that's all.
posted by ginger.beef at 11:04 AM on March 31 [7 favorites]
there exist Jews who claim a term and are trying to reclaim it
Reclaiming "Zionism" is like an American trying to reclaim "manifest destiny" and spin it as a good thing, actually. The dispossession and forced expulsion (if not outright slaughter) of the existing population (who are treated as inferior if not subhuman) was always conceived of as integral to (and indeed necessary for) the Zionist project's success. Seeing people who otherwise claim to be "liberal" defending what is fundamentally a 19th century völkisch nationalist blood-and-soil ideology that's resulted in an ethnofascist apartheid state is cognitive dissonance-inducing.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:08 PM on March 31 [12 favorites]
Reclaiming "Zionism" is like an American trying to reclaim "manifest destiny" and spin it as a good thing, actually. The dispossession and forced expulsion (if not outright slaughter) of the existing population (who are treated as inferior if not subhuman) was always conceived of as integral to (and indeed necessary for) the Zionist project's success. Seeing people who otherwise claim to be "liberal" defending what is fundamentally a 19th century völkisch nationalist blood-and-soil ideology that's resulted in an ethnofascist apartheid state is cognitive dissonance-inducing.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:08 PM on March 31 [12 favorites]
[kirkaracha's post in staff box deleted]
All of that represents a fundamentally shallow understanding of the nature of what Edward Said called "the question of Palestine" (and one that seems to be weirdly typical for Americans); it is not a religious conflict (except insofar as the Biblical covenant of Abraham is treated as a justification of the Zionist position). The Muslim "Palestinian Arabs" are descended from the historical population of Roman Judaea who converted first to Christianity and then later on (mostly but not entirely) to Islam. The issue is the forcible dispossession and displacement of the Palestinian Arab population as part of the Zionist project (see the Nakba, the current genocide, and the ongoing illegal settlement-building project in the occupied territory of the West Bank). Treating it as a conflict of religious ideology is a convenient way to ignore the real issues (while ascribing Palestinian resistance to "Islamic fundamentalism", usually).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:20 PM on March 31 [18 favorites]
All of that represents a fundamentally shallow understanding of the nature of what Edward Said called "the question of Palestine" (and one that seems to be weirdly typical for Americans); it is not a religious conflict (except insofar as the Biblical covenant of Abraham is treated as a justification of the Zionist position). The Muslim "Palestinian Arabs" are descended from the historical population of Roman Judaea who converted first to Christianity and then later on (mostly but not entirely) to Islam. The issue is the forcible dispossession and displacement of the Palestinian Arab population as part of the Zionist project (see the Nakba, the current genocide, and the ongoing illegal settlement-building project in the occupied territory of the West Bank). Treating it as a conflict of religious ideology is a convenient way to ignore the real issues (while ascribing Palestinian resistance to "Islamic fundamentalism", usually).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:20 PM on March 31 [18 favorites]
one of the factors I pointed out the initial October 7th thread was while it is contentious, community, for the most did not denigrate another's religious beliefs, their faith, part of who they are. but I leave that up to the reader to decide if this is perhaps the case.
In secular and religious contentions to differentiate the motivational factors of any one group is daunting. it's one of the most difficult historical events to study let alone follow along. An aggregate generalization may serve well to point out space for various viewpoints and data supporting one's thesis
but it comes to the point in these contentions in this case Wars and civil strife were chronological aspects of History become a battleground over citations, semblance of modern law, and a list of grievances and tragedies that could stretch to Jupiter. no pun intended.
and it's being relegated here now in this thread.
perhaps that was the genius of Dr Gene Scott, if the love wasn't coming in at least four phones, he just rolled the beautiful horse footage.
posted by clavdivs at 4:09 PM on March 31
In secular and religious contentions to differentiate the motivational factors of any one group is daunting. it's one of the most difficult historical events to study let alone follow along. An aggregate generalization may serve well to point out space for various viewpoints and data supporting one's thesis
but it comes to the point in these contentions in this case Wars and civil strife were chronological aspects of History become a battleground over citations, semblance of modern law, and a list of grievances and tragedies that could stretch to Jupiter. no pun intended.
and it's being relegated here now in this thread.
perhaps that was the genius of Dr Gene Scott, if the love wasn't coming in at least four phones, he just rolled the beautiful horse footage.
posted by clavdivs at 4:09 PM on March 31
[Deleted my comment and knucklebones' reply]
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 5:14 PM on March 31
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 5:14 PM on March 31
kirkaracha: "[Deleted my comment and knucklebones' reply]"
Aren't we supposed to get reasons for deletions, these days?
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:43 PM on March 31 [4 favorites]
Aren't we supposed to get reasons for deletions, these days?
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:43 PM on March 31 [4 favorites]
Deleting your comment and reply is one thing. Editing the content of your comment out of someone else's response is pretty cowardly.
posted by fight or flight at 8:03 PM on March 31 [5 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 8:03 PM on March 31 [5 favorites]
Oof. If that wasn't removed by Pseudonymous Cognomen, that's not great. This is why mods should be extra-clear when editing user posts.
posted by sagc at 8:11 PM on March 31 [5 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:11 PM on March 31 [5 favorites]
Yeah, mods shouldn't be deleting their comments just to cover their asses when they say something stupid, and they definitely shouldn't be editing other user's comments to make themselves look better. And Kirk, you shouldn't be deleting or editing comments at all, you're not a mod. WTF.
posted by fight or flight at 8:13 PM on March 31 [19 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 8:13 PM on March 31 [19 favorites]
For the sake of clarity, apparently this is the comment that kirkaracha decided to delete and edit out of others' comments (note that he was sufficiently aware to put in a disclaimer that it wasn't coming from him as a staff member, but also decided to use those staff powers to subsequently remove it once he apparently realised how shitty it was):
posted by fight or flight at 4:35 AM on April 1 [9 favorites]
Would any of the mods or staff care to explain this?My BFF (a fellow semite, not Jewish) prefers "Abrahamic religions," and the moment I heard her use it first, I left Judeo-Christian for the evangelical creepazoids.NOT STAFFIST
About 3000 years ago a bunch of dudes were travelling through the desert and they needed a handbook for staying alive in the desert. So they wrote down what was safe to eat and drink and made some other rules. An invisible sky friend gave them 15 10 • big rules to follow. With a limited population they wanted people to have babies, so they discouraged people from spilling their seed on the ground or into other dudes. They had a lot of enemies, so they felt like they had to do a lot of smiting.
About 2000 years ago another group of dudes travelling through the same desert said, "hey, nice book!" and decided to add some of their own stuff with help from their invisible sky friend. One of them said maybe they didn't really need all that smiting and instead of 10 big rules you only needed two, including be excellent to each other love your neighbor like you love yourself. A lot of his fans really like smiting, though.
About 1400 years ago another group of dudes-yes, it's always dudes-anyways, another group of dudes was travelling through the same desert, said, "hey, nice book!" and decided to add some of their own stuff with help from their invisible sky friend. The guy the invisible sky friend dictated the book to did some smiting when he had to, but lot of his fans really liked smiting, too.
It turns out that the invisible sky friend for all of these groups was the same guy with different names. (I know, confusing, huh?) Even though he was pretty clear that not killing people was one of the big rules, some dudes just really love smiting.
The group 2 dudes loved smiting so much they split up into teams so they could smite each other over things like doing spectacles-testicles-wallet-watch or spectacles-testicles-watch-wallet or what kind of crackers to eat in their cannibalism cosplay. The group 3 dudes also split into teams so they could smite each other over things like who took over when their OG dude died 1400 years ago. And everyone's smiting everyone else until today.
[NOT STAFFIST]
posted by fight or flight at 4:35 AM on April 1 [9 favorites]
Aren't we supposed to get reasons for deletions, these days?
maybe their official mod reminder post-it note (TM) didn't arrive in the mail yet
posted by bowmaniac at 6:23 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
maybe their official mod reminder post-it note (TM) didn't arrive in the mail yet
posted by bowmaniac at 6:23 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
"Invisible sky friend"...epic comment my good sir I tip my fedora!! The comment had to go because it simply pwned too hard
posted by windbox at 6:52 AM on April 1 [5 favorites]
posted by windbox at 6:52 AM on April 1 [5 favorites]
I am not a mod. I don't know how to turn off the mod box, I didn't know it would be there when I posted, so it immediately caused a derail. Deleting a comment is just a link that immediately deletes the comment, without the ability to add a note. There's your fucking explanation.
tl:dr; Goodbye MetaTalk.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 7:08 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
tl:dr; Goodbye MetaTalk.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 7:08 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
kirkaracha: "There's your fucking explanation."
So, to make it clear, you came into a post about an already difficult and sensitive topic, which had up until that point been a civil if not totally productive conversation, in order to post an edgy comment which was not only ignorant, but insulted and belittled the beliefs of religious members of the site. And you only deleted it because you couldn't figure out how to turn off the mod box, not because you realised that it was a shitty thing to do. And now you're not only refusing to apologise for it, you're blaming the site UI for the fact that you got caught abusing your staff powers to cover up your mistake.
Maybe you should have stopped to think about what you were saying before you said it, dude.
posted by fight or flight at 7:27 AM on April 1 [15 favorites]
So, to make it clear, you came into a post about an already difficult and sensitive topic, which had up until that point been a civil if not totally productive conversation, in order to post an edgy comment which was not only ignorant, but insulted and belittled the beliefs of religious members of the site. And you only deleted it because you couldn't figure out how to turn off the mod box, not because you realised that it was a shitty thing to do. And now you're not only refusing to apologise for it, you're blaming the site UI for the fact that you got caught abusing your staff powers to cover up your mistake.
Maybe you should have stopped to think about what you were saying before you said it, dude.
posted by fight or flight at 7:27 AM on April 1 [15 favorites]
I am as guilty as the next MeFite for derailing a conversation, but I don't see the benefit of addressing the substance of kirkaracha's comment beyond Pseudonymous Cognomen's response. That is a short response, what more is needed? And if folks have concerns about the deletion, can we capture those concerns in a separate MetaTalk?
kirkaracha, for what it's worth I think your responses and clarifications re: the site rebuild have benefited the community
posted by ginger.beef at 7:43 AM on April 1 [3 favorites]
kirkaracha, for what it's worth I think your responses and clarifications re: the site rebuild have benefited the community
posted by ginger.beef at 7:43 AM on April 1 [3 favorites]
I am as guilty as the next MeFite for derailing a conversation, but I don't see the benefit of addressing the substance of kirkaracha's comment
The ostensible topic of this post is how to “create a safer and more respectful space for Jewish MeFites”. The majority of this thread has been people falling all over themselves to post variations of “nothing to see here”. I think it is fair to discuss a comment, even if there was an attempt to hide it later on, that lays bare how some members of the community find other members deeply held religious convictions to be mockable.
posted by The Gooch at 8:08 AM on April 1 [8 favorites]
The ostensible topic of this post is how to “create a safer and more respectful space for Jewish MeFites”. The majority of this thread has been people falling all over themselves to post variations of “nothing to see here”. I think it is fair to discuss a comment, even if there was an attempt to hide it later on, that lays bare how some members of the community find other members deeply held religious convictions to be mockable.
posted by The Gooch at 8:08 AM on April 1 [8 favorites]
I think it is fair to discuss a comment, even if there was an attempt to hide it later on, that lays bare how some members of the community find other members deeply held religious convictions to be mockable.
I don't share your perspective, and I will step away, but my interpretation of kirkaracha's comment was an ill-advised attempt to add a "pox on all houses" style dismissal of the Abrahamic religions in terms of how arbitrary differences have led to generations of bloodshed. And unlike some of us, kirkaracha has not been active in discussions of Gaza and antisemitism nearly to the extent of others, iow it's not like they're a frequent offender.
I simply don't see evidence that people are falling over themselves to suggest there is not a problem, antisemitism is receiving discussion in multiple spaces on this site.
posted by ginger.beef at 8:15 AM on April 1 [4 favorites]
I don't share your perspective, and I will step away, but my interpretation of kirkaracha's comment was an ill-advised attempt to add a "pox on all houses" style dismissal of the Abrahamic religions in terms of how arbitrary differences have led to generations of bloodshed. And unlike some of us, kirkaracha has not been active in discussions of Gaza and antisemitism nearly to the extent of others, iow it's not like they're a frequent offender.
I simply don't see evidence that people are falling over themselves to suggest there is not a problem, antisemitism is receiving discussion in multiple spaces on this site.
posted by ginger.beef at 8:15 AM on April 1 [4 favorites]
I am not a mod.
Neither am I. Am I allowed to delete my posts? Am I allowed to delete other poster's posts? Am I allowed to edit other poster's posts? Do you really not see the issue here?
Do other mods care to chime in?
#pleaseanswer
posted by bowmaniac at 8:24 AM on April 1 [10 favorites]
Neither am I. Am I allowed to delete my posts? Am I allowed to delete other poster's posts? Am I allowed to edit other poster's posts? Do you really not see the issue here?
Do other mods care to chime in?
#pleaseanswer
posted by bowmaniac at 8:24 AM on April 1 [10 favorites]
geez Kirk, 2003 called and they want their comment back.
posted by kensington314 at 8:54 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 8:54 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Acknowledging the mistake above. As kirkaracha mentioned, he didn't know how to turn off the mod box and was acting as a regular member. We'll address it internally as well but if you want to discuss this further please create a new Meta about it.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:22 AM on April 1 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 9:22 AM on April 1 [1 favorite]
It was not my intention to belittle or insult anyone and I apologize for offending people's beliefs.
my interpretation of kirkaracha's comment was an ill-advised attempt to add a "pox on all houses" style dismissal of the Abrahamic religions in terms of how arbitrary differences have led to generations of bloodshed
That was basically my intent and I apologize for my inelegant attempt.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 9:29 AM on April 1 [9 favorites]
my interpretation of kirkaracha's comment was an ill-advised attempt to add a "pox on all houses" style dismissal of the Abrahamic religions in terms of how arbitrary differences have led to generations of bloodshed
That was basically my intent and I apologize for my inelegant attempt.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 9:29 AM on April 1 [9 favorites]
MeTa queued.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 10:43 AM on April 1 [1 favorite]
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 10:43 AM on April 1 [1 favorite]
meta queued.
I'll just assume this comment means you're making a new metatalk thread pertaining to the topic.
I don't think that's a good idea but that does not mean that it isn't.
I respect Loup and their wish to comment further in a new thread as not to detract from the conversation which has been more productive then destructive.
posted by clavdivs at 10:59 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
I'll just assume this comment means you're making a new metatalk thread pertaining to the topic.
I don't think that's a good idea but that does not mean that it isn't.
I respect Loup and their wish to comment further in a new thread as not to detract from the conversation which has been more productive then destructive.
posted by clavdivs at 10:59 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
Now that we've had several threads on antisemitism, is it possible to ask why this comment still remains?
posted by mittens at 9:27 AM on April 15 [5 favorites]
posted by mittens at 9:27 AM on April 15 [5 favorites]
Y'know, being uncomfortable might just be okay sometimes?
Balance of harms: in most of the US, criticizing genocide will get you stripped of your visa or fired. There's really nothing comparable occurring towards Jews in the US besides angry words online. In much of the middle east it'll get you bombed.
So when I see someone talking about anti semitism these days I basically assume it's because they haven't really engaged with how deep the pro genocide sentiments are in both American conservative Jewish community, and American power. Because otherwise you'd accept that you need to be a bit uncomfortable, sit in silence, and then start spending your effort dismantling the power structures in your community that support genocide. Because they're the ones creating danger for your community.
posted by constraint at 12:57 AM on April 18
Balance of harms: in most of the US, criticizing genocide will get you stripped of your visa or fired. There's really nothing comparable occurring towards Jews in the US besides angry words online. In much of the middle east it'll get you bombed.
So when I see someone talking about anti semitism these days I basically assume it's because they haven't really engaged with how deep the pro genocide sentiments are in both American conservative Jewish community, and American power. Because otherwise you'd accept that you need to be a bit uncomfortable, sit in silence, and then start spending your effort dismantling the power structures in your community that support genocide. Because they're the ones creating danger for your community.
posted by constraint at 12:57 AM on April 18
Ok, so the above comment:
“when I see someone talking about anti semitism these days I basically assume it's because they haven't really engaged with how deep the pro genocide sentiments are in both American conservative Jewish community”
Is, in fact, a deeply antisemitic thing to say and a solid example of a statement that seems like it would make discussion on this site (if not discussion more broadly) impossible.
Right, like others can see how “anyone who claims that [x] type of prejudice is a problem are always trying to distract from [y]” would, applied universally, lead to a Metafilter where any complaint of Racism, Transphobia, Islamophobia, etc. can be dismissed as “this user simply doesn’t want to sit with how they are wrong.”
Like this kind of stuff will just rot a small website like this into mush, right?
posted by BobbyPullsAWilson at 10:16 AM on April 18 [3 favorites]
“when I see someone talking about anti semitism these days I basically assume it's because they haven't really engaged with how deep the pro genocide sentiments are in both American conservative Jewish community”
Is, in fact, a deeply antisemitic thing to say and a solid example of a statement that seems like it would make discussion on this site (if not discussion more broadly) impossible.
Right, like others can see how “anyone who claims that [x] type of prejudice is a problem are always trying to distract from [y]” would, applied universally, lead to a Metafilter where any complaint of Racism, Transphobia, Islamophobia, etc. can be dismissed as “this user simply doesn’t want to sit with how they are wrong.”
Like this kind of stuff will just rot a small website like this into mush, right?
posted by BobbyPullsAWilson at 10:16 AM on April 18 [3 favorites]
It was not my intention to belittle or insult anyone and I apologize for offending people's beliefs.
If we are all in this together, we are all in this together and who wants to keep score under those circumstances?
posted by y2karl at 11:44 AM on April 18
If we are all in this together, we are all in this together and who wants to keep score under those circumstances?
posted by y2karl at 11:44 AM on April 18
Yeah, mods shouldn't be deleting their comments just to cover their asses when they say something stupid, and they definitely shouldn't be editing other user's comments to make themselves look better.
Which is -- or has been, depending on how one looks at it -- a time honored tradition here.
posted by y2karl at 7:53 AM on April 21
Which is -- or has been, depending on how one looks at it -- a time honored tradition here.
posted by y2karl at 7:53 AM on April 21
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
posted by dusty potato at 9:51 PM on March 26 [23 favorites]