New for FanFare: Podcasts December 3, 2014 1:48 PM Subscribe
Today we're adding podcasts to the mix at FanFare, as a way to discuss shows, and kicking it off with Serial, This American Life, Welcome to Nightvale, as well as others (based on your suggestions).
Podcasts were long on our TODO list for FanFare (along with Books, Games, Comics, etc) based on suggestions from members but we realized after many, many people asked us to support discussion of Serial podcasts at FanFare that almost all the infrastructure was in place to tweak our existing TV Shows code to support Podcasts. Additionally, Podcasts come with great structured metadata in the podcast feeds, which we used to automate adding shows, pulling in show art, pulling in episode dates, show homepages, and locations to play/download each episode.
Today we're launching it with the last episode of Serial, as well as a handful of popular podcasts. You can suggest new ones from the New Post page and for the next couple weeks I'll select a dozen or so in total to try this feature out in a "beta" sort of way before opening the floodgates to new podcast discussions. Ideally, we're looking for popular, episodic podcasts with a broad base of listeners, so that many people can talk about each episode. Everyone has their favorite obscure niche podcast they love, but for the first couple weeks I want to hold off on adding those while we figure out how it will be used for the bigger podcasts. In a perfect world, I'd hope there are at least a handful of fans commenting on each podcast episode so it's not a string of zero comment posts.
When suggesting a show, we'll need the Podcast feed for it in order to make it work (it may require some digging on podcast sites to find the exact RSS/Feedburner/XML). Making new posts is fairly automated thanks to the feeds, where you'll get a list of previous episodes and we'll auto-import their show titles and descriptions into a post, so that you only need to add tags and optionally add additional stuff in the extended section to make a new post.
Sneak Peek of What's Next: If you're worried about the Podcast category drowning out the rest on FanFare or obscuring stuff you like our next big feature for FanFare will be a "My FanFare" feature that will give you a front page tab to show a filtered view of new posts from just the TV shows, Movies, and Podcasts you like, and eventually we'll add more features like tag matching and genres, etc. to the mix, all in the service of making FanFare more customizable to your needs.
Podcasts were long on our TODO list for FanFare (along with Books, Games, Comics, etc) based on suggestions from members but we realized after many, many people asked us to support discussion of Serial podcasts at FanFare that almost all the infrastructure was in place to tweak our existing TV Shows code to support Podcasts. Additionally, Podcasts come with great structured metadata in the podcast feeds, which we used to automate adding shows, pulling in show art, pulling in episode dates, show homepages, and locations to play/download each episode.
Today we're launching it with the last episode of Serial, as well as a handful of popular podcasts. You can suggest new ones from the New Post page and for the next couple weeks I'll select a dozen or so in total to try this feature out in a "beta" sort of way before opening the floodgates to new podcast discussions. Ideally, we're looking for popular, episodic podcasts with a broad base of listeners, so that many people can talk about each episode. Everyone has their favorite obscure niche podcast they love, but for the first couple weeks I want to hold off on adding those while we figure out how it will be used for the bigger podcasts. In a perfect world, I'd hope there are at least a handful of fans commenting on each podcast episode so it's not a string of zero comment posts.
When suggesting a show, we'll need the Podcast feed for it in order to make it work (it may require some digging on podcast sites to find the exact RSS/Feedburner/XML). Making new posts is fairly automated thanks to the feeds, where you'll get a list of previous episodes and we'll auto-import their show titles and descriptions into a post, so that you only need to add tags and optionally add additional stuff in the extended section to make a new post.
Sneak Peek of What's Next: If you're worried about the Podcast category drowning out the rest on FanFare or obscuring stuff you like our next big feature for FanFare will be a "My FanFare" feature that will give you a front page tab to show a filtered view of new posts from just the TV shows, Movies, and Podcasts you like, and eventually we'll add more features like tag matching and genres, etc. to the mix, all in the service of making FanFare more customizable to your needs.
You can suggest new ones from the New Post page
I don't seen an option for this - can you clarify on the process?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:56 PM on December 3, 2014
I don't seen an option for this - can you clarify on the process?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:56 PM on December 3, 2014
I was going to say I was baffled to see a podcast in FanFare. This is great!
posted by filthy light thief at 1:57 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by filthy light thief at 1:57 PM on December 3, 2014
And I didn't see the option to add a podcast, either. I checked in both Dark and Light Modern theme, plus Classic and Professional White themes for good measure.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:00 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by filthy light thief at 2:00 PM on December 3, 2014
Here's the first podcast post on the last episode of Serial, here's the Serial show page. We'll continue tweaking the features/layout of these podcast-specific pages over the next few days.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:01 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:01 PM on December 3, 2014
You suggest a new show on the Podcast new post page, you should see a link next to the show list saying Suggest Show like in this screenshot.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:02 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:02 PM on December 3, 2014
Yay!
posted by brundlefly at 2:06 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by brundlefly at 2:06 PM on December 3, 2014
Weird at last. My god...weird at last!
posted by sparklemotion at 2:17 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by sparklemotion at 2:17 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
I suggested Hardcore History, thank you.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:21 PM on December 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:21 PM on December 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
Will the Metafilter podcast roll into FanFare, or will it keep living at its current, metatalk-derived home?
posted by jazon at 2:36 PM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by jazon at 2:36 PM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Hooray!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:38 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:38 PM on December 3, 2014
We don't have any plans to move the MetaTalk podcast right now.
posted by pb (staff) at 2:40 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by pb (staff) at 2:40 PM on December 3, 2014
The podcast world seems to be divided into the narrative/journalism side (all the ones in the beta test) and the ones that are more like talk shows (like the metafilter podcast). I assume both kinds are fine to post?
posted by selfnoise at 2:41 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by selfnoise at 2:41 PM on December 3, 2014
Yeah, any podcast is fine. As Matt mentioned, today we're looking for:
posted by pb (staff) at 2:46 PM on December 3, 2014
...popular, episodic podcasts with a broad base of listeners, so that many people can talk about each episode. Everyone has their favorite obscure niche podcast they love, but for the first couple weeks I want to hold off on adding those while we figure out how it will be used for the bigger podcasts.So if it fits that criteria it's likely to be added during this beta phase. Otherwise just wait a bit until we open it up to more podcasts.
posted by pb (staff) at 2:46 PM on December 3, 2014
Yeah, I think journalismy podcasts seem most like TV shows, but also stuff like Roderick on the Line and Judge John Hodgman would be fun to discuss, but I'm not sure how many listeners are among the MeFi membership.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:01 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:01 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
HODGMAN.
posted by Etrigan at 3:09 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 3:09 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Great idea. Hodgman is the obvious choice. I suggested Song Exploder cuz there's lots of cool music nerds on here.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:18 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:18 PM on December 3, 2014
MBMBAM!!!
posted by kmz at 3:25 PM on December 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by kmz at 3:25 PM on December 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
Oh this is splendid. I was going to suggest This American Life as an obvious candidate, but I see it's already done. Seems like a good list to start with as a beta.
Question: could FanFare podcast / podcast episode pages include links to the podcast's homepage and/or feed? Or contain a "listen" widget? I could see both of these being useful: a listen widget for "hey, I'll give this one a try as it's being discussed here", a link to the feed for "hey, that's cool, I'll subscribe to this podcast."
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 3:30 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Question: could FanFare podcast / podcast episode pages include links to the podcast's homepage and/or feed? Or contain a "listen" widget? I could see both of these being useful: a listen widget for "hey, I'll give this one a try as it's being discussed here", a link to the feed for "hey, that's cool, I'll subscribe to this podcast."
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 3:30 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I think including a link to the official page for an episode would be great. We're discussing how we might do that. If you go to the FanFare show page for Serial, there's a link to the official site at the top of the page after the title. (You can get to the show page for a podcast by clicking the show art on an episode page, or clicking the name of the show in the title on an episode page.)
posted by pb (staff) at 3:34 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by pb (staff) at 3:34 PM on December 3, 2014
This is awesome, but it's adding even more unwieldiness to the page. Is the my fanfare page in the nearish works? I know it's in the eventual plan.
posted by jeather at 3:38 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by jeather at 3:38 PM on December 3, 2014
Yeah, adding My FanFare is next on our list.
posted by pb (staff) at 3:45 PM on December 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by pb (staff) at 3:45 PM on December 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
Ok, I added JJHodgman to the list of shows, if anyone wants to post one. I particularly loved the hippie commune judgment show last week.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:10 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:10 PM on December 3, 2014
I just suggested several: Answer Me This, 99 percent invisible, Kermode & Mayo's Film Reviews (aka Wittertainment), and One Bad Mother. It's hard for me to know just how popular any of them are, but I know Wittertainment has millions of downloads each month—it certainly fits the criteria of being widely known!
posted by ocherdraco at 5:53 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by ocherdraco at 5:53 PM on December 3, 2014
I approved the 99% one because I think it could be conducive to good discussions.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 6:05 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by mathowie (staff) at 6:05 PM on December 3, 2014
Just added The Incomparable because it rules.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:07 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by wenestvedt at 6:07 PM on December 3, 2014
Is there going to be a "Recently added podcast" on the sidebar also?
posted by jeather at 6:16 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by jeather at 6:16 PM on December 3, 2014
All hail the mighty Glow Cloud! Err, I mean matt.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:06 PM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 8:06 PM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
My Brother, My Brother and Me
How Did This Get Made?
Jordan, Jesse, Go!
Roderick on the Line
The B.S. Report (for us sportsball fans)
and maybe a Re-Listen or First Listen to
You Look Nice Today
posted by Rock Steady at 8:54 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
How Did This Get Made?
Jordan, Jesse, Go!
Roderick on the Line
The B.S. Report (for us sportsball fans)
and maybe a Re-Listen or First Listen to
You Look Nice Today
posted by Rock Steady at 8:54 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yay! Added posts for the most recent episodes of 99pi and AMT.
posted by ocherdraco at 9:32 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by ocherdraco at 9:32 PM on December 3, 2014
Ooh, hadn't thought of this. How about Idle Thumbs?
posted by ignignokt at 9:36 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by ignignokt at 9:36 PM on December 3, 2014
Could you add radio shows to the list before the Cabin Pressure final episodes on the 23rd and 24th? By any chance? It could also be used for people to listen to the original Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series. While it may only appeal to the British and britophiles*, the fundamental rules would be the same as for TV shows, so it wouldn't be that hard to implement.
Of course if you do all that and I'm the only person to turn up to comment on Cabin Pressure, I'll probably be so embarrassed I'll need to invent a bunch of sock puppets to pretend to discuss the show with.
*I don't know, maybe not.
posted by Grangousier at 2:26 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Of course if you do all that and I'm the only person to turn up to comment on Cabin Pressure, I'll probably be so embarrassed I'll need to invent a bunch of sock puppets to pretend to discuss the show with.
*I don't know, maybe not.
posted by Grangousier at 2:26 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I see it's already been added, but I just wanted to note that Judge John Hodgman is a fitting addition, given that back in 2010 AskMe sort of had a hand in its creation.
posted by KatlaDragon at 4:30 AM on December 4, 2014
posted by KatlaDragon at 4:30 AM on December 4, 2014
Is FanFare really that popular? Every time I check it, it's a firehose of posts about this and that with 0, 1, or 2 comments. I know MetaFilter is ostensibly "not about the discussion," but when a TV/Movies site was being talked up, it was done so because "I want to talk about my favorite TV shows with MetaFilter."
But that doesn't seem to be happening. At least to this one outsider-insider perspective, it seems like a handful of people howling their ideas into a void or the occasional "popular" discussion that manages 15 whole comments. More-or-less, there is no discussion.
I mean, this isn't a criticism so much as commentary. A page generating no posts isn't generating any more work for the mods, so maybe it's no big deal. It just seems that, other than Game of Thrones, there isn't nearly as much enthusiasm for FanFare as was presupposed. It feels to me in retrospect like FanFare is a very over-engineered solution to the unique problem of Game of Thrones posts.
I'm not suggesting doing away with it or any other radical action, but every time I check in there it feels like a zombie site, generating links that no one follows and content that inspires no commentary. I just wonder if it's a lot energy expended - coding, moderating, expanding - for ... when Game of Thrones comes back on, I guess.
posted by absalom at 5:02 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
But that doesn't seem to be happening. At least to this one outsider-insider perspective, it seems like a handful of people howling their ideas into a void or the occasional "popular" discussion that manages 15 whole comments. More-or-less, there is no discussion.
I mean, this isn't a criticism so much as commentary. A page generating no posts isn't generating any more work for the mods, so maybe it's no big deal. It just seems that, other than Game of Thrones, there isn't nearly as much enthusiasm for FanFare as was presupposed. It feels to me in retrospect like FanFare is a very over-engineered solution to the unique problem of Game of Thrones posts.
I'm not suggesting doing away with it or any other radical action, but every time I check in there it feels like a zombie site, generating links that no one follows and content that inspires no commentary. I just wonder if it's a lot energy expended - coding, moderating, expanding - for ... when Game of Thrones comes back on, I guess.
posted by absalom at 5:02 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I agree that FanFare has to be about the discussion, and its intent was never otherwise (and as much as anyone has ever argued that MetaFilter is "not about the discussion," they did so specifically in regards to the Blue, and even then I haven't seen anyone argue that in years).
But I don't think there has to be a lot of discussion for FanFare to be considered successful. 5 or 10 comments on most posts is just fine - why shouldn't it be? And I don't think your characterization of FanFare as "a firehose of posts about this and that with 0, 1, or 2 comments" is accurate, unless you're looking at the very top, those posted in the last 24 hours or so. I think discussion in FanFare is slower to develop than on other subsites, partly because people watch the subject matter at different times. This always would have been true for movies, but with the rise in ways to watch TV shows other than in "real time" that's now true for TV as well. Case in point: I've been following The Flash, but I haven't gotten around to watching last Tuesday's episode yet, and probably won't for at least a few more days. Once I do, I may or may not have something to say about it in its thread.
As for the charge that only GoT generates the level of discussion you seem to think desirable, I'd draw your attention to the Walking Dead thread currently on the FanFare front page which has over 100 comments. But even if a very small minority of shows generate that level of interest, I think that's fine.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:27 AM on December 4, 2014
But I don't think there has to be a lot of discussion for FanFare to be considered successful. 5 or 10 comments on most posts is just fine - why shouldn't it be? And I don't think your characterization of FanFare as "a firehose of posts about this and that with 0, 1, or 2 comments" is accurate, unless you're looking at the very top, those posted in the last 24 hours or so. I think discussion in FanFare is slower to develop than on other subsites, partly because people watch the subject matter at different times. This always would have been true for movies, but with the rise in ways to watch TV shows other than in "real time" that's now true for TV as well. Case in point: I've been following The Flash, but I haven't gotten around to watching last Tuesday's episode yet, and probably won't for at least a few more days. Once I do, I may or may not have something to say about it in its thread.
As for the charge that only GoT generates the level of discussion you seem to think desirable, I'd draw your attention to the Walking Dead thread currently on the FanFare front page which has over 100 comments. But even if a very small minority of shows generate that level of interest, I think that's fine.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:27 AM on December 4, 2014
absalom: "At least to this one outsider-insider perspective, it seems like a handful of people howling their ideas into a void or the occasional "popular" discussion that manages 15 whole comments. More-or-less, there is no discussion."
This is also a very good description of the first year or so of another website I am familiar with. You may have heard of it as well, it's a Community Weblog called metalfitter.com or something. I think it might still be around.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:44 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is also a very good description of the first year or so of another website I am familiar with. You may have heard of it as well, it's a Community Weblog called metalfitter.com or something. I think it might still be around.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:44 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is delightful, but with the varied kinds of media that FanFare is pulling in, it's making the subsite more and more unnavigable for me, and I'd consider myself a fairly "typical" user in terms of web savvy and Internet-friendliness.
Any chance that the sub-bar at the top in the new design could be modifed to also accomodate sort options for "TV", "Film," "Podcast", "Comics," etc.? I'd love an option that lets me browse current conversations for a type of media (seeing what's being currently discussed in Movies might actually influence a viewing choice, for instance), but the current drink-from-the-fire-hose approach is kind of overwhelming.
I know I can manually search for "Podcast", etc., but I think a simple selector that lets me either choose a category or toggle categories on/off would go a long way toward me feeling like I can browse FanFare "successfully".
posted by Shepherd at 5:58 AM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
Any chance that the sub-bar at the top in the new design could be modifed to also accomodate sort options for "TV", "Film," "Podcast", "Comics," etc.? I'd love an option that lets me browse current conversations for a type of media (seeing what's being currently discussed in Movies might actually influence a viewing choice, for instance), but the current drink-from-the-fire-hose approach is kind of overwhelming.
I know I can manually search for "Podcast", etc., but I think a simple selector that lets me either choose a category or toggle categories on/off would go a long way toward me feeling like I can browse FanFare "successfully".
posted by Shepherd at 5:58 AM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
The podcast world seems to be divided into the narrative/journalism side (all the ones in the beta test) and the ones that are more like talk shows (like the metafilter podcast). I assume both kinds are fine to post?
It does feel like there is a lot more to discuss on the former than the latter.
posted by smackfu at 6:29 AM on December 4, 2014
It does feel like there is a lot more to discuss on the former than the latter.
posted by smackfu at 6:29 AM on December 4, 2014
Yeah, I love Mike and Tom Eat Snacks, but I'm not sure there is a lot of *discussion* to be had about it.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:42 AM on December 4, 2014
posted by Chrysostom at 6:42 AM on December 4, 2014
This is fantastic. Thanks for doing this.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:46 AM on December 4, 2014
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:46 AM on December 4, 2014
Any chance that the sub-bar at the top in the new design could be modifed to also accomodate sort options for "TV", "Film," "Podcast", "Comics," etc.? I'd love an option that lets me browse current conversations for a type of media (seeing what's being currently discussed in Movies might actually influence a viewing choice, for instance), but the current drink-from-the-fire-hose approach is kind of overwhelming.
Yeah I have to agree with this, it's really becoming a bit of a mess there, some sub categories are probably necessary as a mandatory addition at this point, because I suspect that's driving away users. I think the "my fanfare" option will help a lot, but I think it needs to be sub-categorised by default at this point.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 6:59 AM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
Yeah I have to agree with this, it's really becoming a bit of a mess there, some sub categories are probably necessary as a mandatory addition at this point, because I suspect that's driving away users. I think the "my fanfare" option will help a lot, but I think it needs to be sub-categorised by default at this point.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 6:59 AM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
I just want to know why Podcasts don't use the baked-in episode number formatting that TV shows use. I suppose it's because that part was coded to need both season and episode number, which strikes me as a bit short-sighted seeing as FanFare has been meant from the ground up to be expanded into greater variations in media. Anyway, I would rather see "Season 1, Episode 1,914" versus "Podcast: Title: Episode 1914: Episode Name"
Maybe I'm just reacting to the clunky and inconsistent titling of the podcasts thus far, since "Podcast: Title 142: Episode Name" would probably satisfy my pickiness. Also seconding the ability to drill down by category, as that will become more important as FanFare widens to more categories Already I have a hard time finding interesting movie discussions saved only by the sidebar of movie posters.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:54 AM on December 4, 2014
Maybe I'm just reacting to the clunky and inconsistent titling of the podcasts thus far, since "Podcast: Title 142: Episode Name" would probably satisfy my pickiness. Also seconding the ability to drill down by category, as that will become more important as FanFare widens to more categories Already I have a hard time finding interesting movie discussions saved only by the sidebar of movie posters.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:54 AM on December 4, 2014
ApathyGirl's West Wing posts are excellent examples of posts that are low on comments but high in quality. There's not a slew of comments to each one, but the viewers that do comment are very passionate and informed and contribute a lot to the conversation.
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:00 AM on December 4, 2014
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:00 AM on December 4, 2014
I just want to know why Podcasts don't use the baked-in episode number formatting that TV shows use.
It's because Podcasts don't have a season/episode numbering convention like TV has. Podcasts are much less standardized. So we're going with what the podcast uses in their feed.
posted by pb (staff) at 9:57 AM on December 4, 2014
It's because Podcasts don't have a season/episode numbering convention like TV has. Podcasts are much less standardized. So we're going with what the podcast uses in their feed.
posted by pb (staff) at 9:57 AM on December 4, 2014
We just added a Categories box to the sidebar on the front page. So you can limit posts to just TV, Movies, or Podcasts if you'd rather browse new posts that way.
posted by pb (staff) at 11:48 AM on December 4, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by pb (staff) at 11:48 AM on December 4, 2014 [6 favorites]
"Is FanFare really that popular? Every time I check it, it's a firehose of posts about this and that with 0, 1, or 2 comments. I know MetaFilter is ostensibly 'not about the discussion,' but when a TV/Movies site was being talked up, it was done so because 'I want to talk about my favorite TV shows with MetaFilter.'"
I pretty much agree with this criticism in that I worry that the vast scope of FanFare relative to participation is hurting it. If it had been my decision, I'd have restricted it to only the most popular currently-airing shows, a tiny number of voted-upon organized re-watches, and that's it. No movies, even. And then I would have only expanded the scope very slowly in direct proportion to rising activity.
But I'm not Matt. That's pretty much a good thing. Matt's judgment has been proven to be very good. Although, obviously, that doesn't mean he can't be wrong now and then.
I think that with the demise of TWoP there was a unsatisfied demand for community discussion of television on the web, and although I don't have firsthand experience, I don't think the other sites are really meeting it. And I don't think FanFare is meeting it. Maybe it's because all of those former TWoP folk and others out there don't know about FanFare. But I had some hope that FanFare would get a lot of attention and draw those folk in. That hasn't happened, and my concern is that the experience of people checking out FanFare will be that they see some show they like and then are disappointed that either there's not a post about it, or that post has only a single comment. And that sounds like a chicken-and-egg problem, but it's not just that, it's also a perception problem. If you couldn't post about less popular shows, and so only the more popular shows have posts and all those posts have lively discussion, then the perception would be quite different. Very low activity has strong connotations of being stagnant and low-interest.
I think it even plays out within the membership, not just curious lurkers. A number of people here have described checking out FanFare, seeing low activity, and then mostly dismissing it and not looking at it again. I really do think that expanding it in any way, even just adding more TV shows, should have come last, and slowly. But, again, I'm not Matt.
And, really, I'm not sure how much is at stake. Well, okay, if this could somehow be a potential source of more revenue, then maybe there's something serious at stake. But, otherwise, it's not clear that we'd want to support a big influx of people who like to talk about TV, to be the new web destination for that. Maybe we don't want that at all. And does it really need to be a very active part of the site? Do the music or project subsites need to be much more active than they are? Popularity for popularity's sake is dumb. And it comes with its own set of serious problems. Furthermore, doing this in the roundabout way from how I'd do it very well could have its own set of benefits. Even if it's hurting popularity and growth, maybe that's a good thing during the period in which functionality is designed, tested, and implemented. This way, if it does eventually grow quite a bit, there'll be a lot of history and experience already there. And it could still grow quite a lot, and in quite a short period of time. There's critical masses for this sort of thing and it may well be that FanFare is just underneath it.
So, although I was one of the strongest advocates for FanFare and I have a lot invested in it as a mefite and therefore I have this sort of itchy feeling a lot of "oh, I really wish they would things things this other way", I try not to worry about it because my sense is that there's a really good chance it will all work out for the best in the end, anyway.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:49 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I pretty much agree with this criticism in that I worry that the vast scope of FanFare relative to participation is hurting it. If it had been my decision, I'd have restricted it to only the most popular currently-airing shows, a tiny number of voted-upon organized re-watches, and that's it. No movies, even. And then I would have only expanded the scope very slowly in direct proportion to rising activity.
But I'm not Matt. That's pretty much a good thing. Matt's judgment has been proven to be very good. Although, obviously, that doesn't mean he can't be wrong now and then.
I think that with the demise of TWoP there was a unsatisfied demand for community discussion of television on the web, and although I don't have firsthand experience, I don't think the other sites are really meeting it. And I don't think FanFare is meeting it. Maybe it's because all of those former TWoP folk and others out there don't know about FanFare. But I had some hope that FanFare would get a lot of attention and draw those folk in. That hasn't happened, and my concern is that the experience of people checking out FanFare will be that they see some show they like and then are disappointed that either there's not a post about it, or that post has only a single comment. And that sounds like a chicken-and-egg problem, but it's not just that, it's also a perception problem. If you couldn't post about less popular shows, and so only the more popular shows have posts and all those posts have lively discussion, then the perception would be quite different. Very low activity has strong connotations of being stagnant and low-interest.
I think it even plays out within the membership, not just curious lurkers. A number of people here have described checking out FanFare, seeing low activity, and then mostly dismissing it and not looking at it again. I really do think that expanding it in any way, even just adding more TV shows, should have come last, and slowly. But, again, I'm not Matt.
And, really, I'm not sure how much is at stake. Well, okay, if this could somehow be a potential source of more revenue, then maybe there's something serious at stake. But, otherwise, it's not clear that we'd want to support a big influx of people who like to talk about TV, to be the new web destination for that. Maybe we don't want that at all. And does it really need to be a very active part of the site? Do the music or project subsites need to be much more active than they are? Popularity for popularity's sake is dumb. And it comes with its own set of serious problems. Furthermore, doing this in the roundabout way from how I'd do it very well could have its own set of benefits. Even if it's hurting popularity and growth, maybe that's a good thing during the period in which functionality is designed, tested, and implemented. This way, if it does eventually grow quite a bit, there'll be a lot of history and experience already there. And it could still grow quite a lot, and in quite a short period of time. There's critical masses for this sort of thing and it may well be that FanFare is just underneath it.
So, although I was one of the strongest advocates for FanFare and I have a lot invested in it as a mefite and therefore I have this sort of itchy feeling a lot of "oh, I really wish they would things things this other way", I try not to worry about it because my sense is that there's a really good chance it will all work out for the best in the end, anyway.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:49 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Can we have some standardized way to include the show notes for a podcast with each post? A place on the sidebar (like TV recaps) would work if it can't be automated. A link to the podcast's rss feed somewhere would be good as well for people who want to subscribe and listen.
The reply all episode sounded interesting but I had to go search for the podcast manually (like an animal).
posted by Gary at 12:48 PM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
The reply all episode sounded interesting but I had to go search for the podcast manually (like an animal).
posted by Gary at 12:48 PM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm really really excited about the addition of podcasts to fanfare. I listen to way more podcasts each week than I watch TV shows or movies.
posted by ocherdraco at 1:01 PM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by ocherdraco at 1:01 PM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I approved the 99% one because I think it could be conducive to good discussions.
Also, Roman Mars has the best voice in all of everything.
posted by psoas at 1:51 PM on December 4, 2014
Also, Roman Mars has the best voice in all of everything.
posted by psoas at 1:51 PM on December 4, 2014
The reply all episode sounded interesting but I had to go search for the podcast manually (like an animal).
We're working on the thread pages today (we revamped the show pages already) so every thread will have a direct link to get to a podcast's page to listen/see notes/etc.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:01 PM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
We're working on the thread pages today (we revamped the show pages already) so every thread will have a direct link to get to a podcast's page to listen/see notes/etc.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:01 PM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Ivan, the premise of FanFare was to bring in a place to discuss bits of culture, but trying to perfectly replicate TWoP or bring those TWoP users in was never the goal. It was more to make a TWoP-like space here with our own vibes and own needs to serve our own users.
The site is expanding beyond the basics and beyond a small set of options because it's not "The MetaFilter Way" to rule a site with an iron fist. If I went around saying people are only allowed to discuss the top ten TV shows and nothing else, and to eliminate movies, etc so that every thread has 50+ comments, that wouldn't work either and could quite likely peter itself out after a few months. As it was, we started with just two shows and only I got to post them, then we went to more shows and me just doing one new movie each week, but at every turn I got a lot of static about how it was weird there was significant mod control over these things and I think the site truly feels better with those mod bottlenecks removed.
So the site will sprawl a bit and some shows will only get 1 or none comments (happened to me, and I stopped posting about a little show I liked soon after), but that's alright too. That's how MetaFilter itself started -- basically most of 1999 is an entire site filled with threads that have 1 or none comments.
The idea of "success" for FanFare in my mind is that it meets a previously unmet need and it gives some pleasure and happiness to the people using it. For me, there are 3-4 shows I follow and I love seeing any weird old Movies pop up to remind me to rewatch old favorites. It's still very new and everyone's still figuring stuff out, but I'm totally ok with people experimenting with shows/movies/podcasts on the site and figuring out what works and doesn't without it being driven from an entirely top-down direction.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:16 PM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
The site is expanding beyond the basics and beyond a small set of options because it's not "The MetaFilter Way" to rule a site with an iron fist. If I went around saying people are only allowed to discuss the top ten TV shows and nothing else, and to eliminate movies, etc so that every thread has 50+ comments, that wouldn't work either and could quite likely peter itself out after a few months. As it was, we started with just two shows and only I got to post them, then we went to more shows and me just doing one new movie each week, but at every turn I got a lot of static about how it was weird there was significant mod control over these things and I think the site truly feels better with those mod bottlenecks removed.
So the site will sprawl a bit and some shows will only get 1 or none comments (happened to me, and I stopped posting about a little show I liked soon after), but that's alright too. That's how MetaFilter itself started -- basically most of 1999 is an entire site filled with threads that have 1 or none comments.
The idea of "success" for FanFare in my mind is that it meets a previously unmet need and it gives some pleasure and happiness to the people using it. For me, there are 3-4 shows I follow and I love seeing any weird old Movies pop up to remind me to rewatch old favorites. It's still very new and everyone's still figuring stuff out, but I'm totally ok with people experimenting with shows/movies/podcasts on the site and figuring out what works and doesn't without it being driven from an entirely top-down direction.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:16 PM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
psoas - OMG I totally agree. Except part of what sounds good is the way he mics himself. I was wholeheartedly disappointed when I heard him interviewed on another show, he sounded almost unrecognizable.
posted by radioamy at 2:36 PM on December 4, 2014
posted by radioamy at 2:36 PM on December 4, 2014
Ha! Yes, I have had a drink with Roman in a bar and his voice is totally normal and he's an actual audio engineer that is good at making his voice sound deep and sweet.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:47 PM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:47 PM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
That's how MetaFilter itself started -- basically most of 1999 is an entire site filled with threads that have 1 or none comments.
Whoa. Tenacity!
posted by ignignokt at 3:03 PM on December 4, 2014
Whoa. Tenacity!
posted by ignignokt at 3:03 PM on December 4, 2014
"The site is expanding beyond the basics and beyond a small set of options because it's not 'The MetaFilter Way' to rule a site with an iron fist. If I went around saying people are only allowed to discuss the top ten TV shows and nothing else, and to eliminate movies, etc so that every thread has 50+ comments, that wouldn't work either and could quite likely peter itself out after a few months. As it was, we started with just two shows and only I got to post them, then we went to more shows and me just doing one new movie each week, but at every turn I got a lot of static about how it was weird there was significant mod control over these things and I think the site truly feels better with those mod bottlenecks removed."
Yeah, I can totally understand that. I trust your judgment and you've always presented strong arguments for your decisions. It's just that I have a strong intuitive reaction to the lack of participation in the majority of the threads in combination with an ever-increasing scope -- it's hard to articulate all of what's behind that reaction, but it reminds me of an overbuilt, planned property development with a 90% vacancy rate. That's a poor analogy in an important respect, because what you're doing isn't a huge capital investment. But I think it's a good analogy with regard to social psychology and the signaling involved.
I think there's some cost involved with this because people tend to sample things and then decide what they think. If they sample early on when there's low participation, there's a risk they'll just give up on it completely. And I think there's an important distinction between FanFare and the rest of MetaFilter, especially MeFi proper -- FanFare isn't primarily about the post. FanFare posts can't stand on their own, as MeFi posts do. Without participation, FanFare posts have basically no value at all. Posts to MeFi don't require lots of comments to keep people checking (and reading) the MeFi main page. But FanFare posts do.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:17 PM on December 4, 2014
Yeah, I can totally understand that. I trust your judgment and you've always presented strong arguments for your decisions. It's just that I have a strong intuitive reaction to the lack of participation in the majority of the threads in combination with an ever-increasing scope -- it's hard to articulate all of what's behind that reaction, but it reminds me of an overbuilt, planned property development with a 90% vacancy rate. That's a poor analogy in an important respect, because what you're doing isn't a huge capital investment. But I think it's a good analogy with regard to social psychology and the signaling involved.
I think there's some cost involved with this because people tend to sample things and then decide what they think. If they sample early on when there's low participation, there's a risk they'll just give up on it completely. And I think there's an important distinction between FanFare and the rest of MetaFilter, especially MeFi proper -- FanFare isn't primarily about the post. FanFare posts can't stand on their own, as MeFi posts do. Without participation, FanFare posts have basically no value at all. Posts to MeFi don't require lots of comments to keep people checking (and reading) the MeFi main page. But FanFare posts do.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:17 PM on December 4, 2014
There is a distinction though that FanFare posts have a life beyond the front page in a way MeFi posts don't really. You can binge watch a show from last year and look up the old discussions about it on FanFare pretty easily (and I've done precisely that a few times with movies I didn't see for months after they hit the theater), but I rarely if ever look at old MeFi posts when I learn about some bit of months-to-years-old history. So FanFare is going to be more "long tail" over time.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 6:47 PM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by mathowie (staff) at 6:47 PM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
We just added a Categories box to the sidebar on the front page. So you can limit posts to just TV, Movies, or Podcasts if you'd rather browse new posts that way.
Thank you! Just to be more finickity, it's a shame that the sidebar vanishes when you do click on a category currently, but it is very useful to have the option now!
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:23 AM on December 5, 2014
Thank you! Just to be more finickity, it's a shame that the sidebar vanishes when you do click on a category currently, but it is very useful to have the option now!
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:23 AM on December 5, 2014
I pretty much agree with this criticism in that I worry that the vast scope of FanFare relative to participation is hurting it. If it had been my decision, I'd have restricted it to only the most popular currently-airing shows, a tiny number of voted-upon organized re-watches, and that's it. No movies, even. And then I would have only expanded the scope very slowly in direct proportion to rising activity.
Then I'd have nothing to comment on! If the shows/movies I'm interested in weren't on FanFare I wouldn't watch The Walking Dead or Mad Men instead. Granted my participation in FanFare hasn't been much, but it's not like the blue where I could just read different FPPs; I'm not going to start watching a show just to participate in FanFare.
posted by ODiV at 8:30 AM on December 5, 2014
Then I'd have nothing to comment on! If the shows/movies I'm interested in weren't on FanFare I wouldn't watch The Walking Dead or Mad Men instead. Granted my participation in FanFare hasn't been much, but it's not like the blue where I could just read different FPPs; I'm not going to start watching a show just to participate in FanFare.
posted by ODiV at 8:30 AM on December 5, 2014
Are we at the point yet where we can get just about any podcast approved? Because right now the available list skews heavily male*, and I'd like to add some of my favorite woman-hosted podcasts (including some that I suggested earlier but haven't been approved).
*only two with female co-hosts, none completely hosted by women
posted by ocherdraco at 7:03 PM on December 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
*only two with female co-hosts, none completely hosted by women
posted by ocherdraco at 7:03 PM on December 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
including some that I suggested earlier but haven't been approved
ocherdraco, you suggested a bunch of podcasts in the early days, but I didn't want to just post through every Maximum Fun podcast, so I picked the most popular ones, but I'm not sure if they are big hits on FanFare -- things like Jordan Jesse Go are entertaining, but really long podcasts and there's not much to say after.
I'm fine if you want to suggest more with a more gender balance (I noticed TL:DR; is now hosted by two women), but I was cooling our jets on max fun stuff was all.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:55 AM on December 23, 2014
ocherdraco, you suggested a bunch of podcasts in the early days, but I didn't want to just post through every Maximum Fun podcast, so I picked the most popular ones, but I'm not sure if they are big hits on FanFare -- things like Jordan Jesse Go are entertaining, but really long podcasts and there's not much to say after.
I'm fine if you want to suggest more with a more gender balance (I noticed TL:DR; is now hosted by two women), but I was cooling our jets on max fun stuff was all.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:55 AM on December 23, 2014
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posted by tofu_crouton at 1:50 PM on December 3, 2014