...are the rivers Pepsi Blue? August 14, 2012 8:59 AM Subscribe
Village, village, village, village, village... buy a village. Done.
I'm sure that this post is both good quality and made in good faith. I am however wondering where we stand on Pepsi Blue stuff these days, even that it's extolling a Rio Grande commercial card set and video game.
Again, I'm not suggesting that this post was made in bad faith - it's a great post - but just wanting to know where the boundaries are.
Again, I'm not suggesting that this post was made in bad faith - it's a great post - but just wanting to know where the boundaries are.
My general not-a-mod understanding is there's very little in the way of boundaries, and rather a lot in the way of amorphous and mutable community standards. As far as such things go, "good quality and made in good faith" is usually going to be within whatever sort of boundary-esque things we've got going on.
posted by kavasa at 9:04 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by kavasa at 9:04 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
My problem with that post is that the above-the-fold link is ONLY to the game's website - it's similar to my pet peeve where the first links in a post are to wikipedia articles rather than the 'meat' of what makes a post interest.
There's a lot of good stuff under-the-fold that would have been better as the meaty link.
posted by muddgirl at 9:11 AM on August 14, 2012
There's a lot of good stuff under-the-fold that would have been better as the meaty link.
posted by muddgirl at 9:11 AM on August 14, 2012
I don't know, it seemed like it was pretty much like any other big, informative post - some of them are about things that also happen to be for sale and some of them are not. In terms of exactly how that's different from a hypothetical post that's about, say, the incredible driving experience offered by the 2013 Toyota Camry, I don't know, it strikes me as one of those "know it when I see it" things.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 9:13 AM on August 14, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 9:13 AM on August 14, 2012 [2 favorites]
Last week, I made a post about a new technology in online videogaming. I made a concerted effort not to mention the game, nor the company that produced it, for fear of feeding a potential pepsi-blue derail.
posted by crunchland at 9:14 AM on August 14, 2012
posted by crunchland at 9:14 AM on August 14, 2012
At a glance it seems fine to me, because (a) Dominion has been a huuuuge board (?) gaming phenomenon the last few years and (b) the post feels more like a love letter and an introduction to the game as a game than a sales pitch for the game as a product. My concern, as both mod and reader, is more with the squick factor of sketchy posts that seem to be selling something than with the question of whether there is a commercial product involved at all, basically.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:14 AM on August 14, 2012
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:14 AM on August 14, 2012
In terms of exactly how that's different from a hypothetical post that's about, say, the incredible driving experience offered by the 2013 Toyota Camry, I don't know
nerd quotient.
and sorry i can't help myself, but ....
metafilter: a lot in the way of amorphous and mutable community standards.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 9:15 AM on August 14, 2012
nerd quotient.
and sorry i can't help myself, but ....
metafilter: a lot in the way of amorphous and mutable community standards.
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 9:15 AM on August 14, 2012
Yeah, that post struck me more as a love letter post. There's some obvious overlap with Pepsi Blue, but I think the tone is different.
posted by OmieWise at 9:27 AM on August 14, 2012
posted by OmieWise at 9:27 AM on August 14, 2012
I think there's a big difference between liking and wanting to share an experience or product that happens to be sold by someone, and shilling for it. It's the difference between a friend telling you about how awesome this game he was playing is and that game being a commercial product, and those LOSE WEIGHT NOW ASK ME HOW Herbalife people.
posted by griphus at 9:30 AM on August 14, 2012
posted by griphus at 9:30 AM on August 14, 2012
APPLE APPLE APPLE APPLE BUY AN APPLE always seems to be fine.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:33 AM on August 14, 2012 [9 favorites]
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:33 AM on August 14, 2012 [9 favorites]
Well awesome. I'm genuinely happy about this, I have a mental post all lined up.
It isn't even about the 2013 Toyota Camry, although I'd like FAMOUS MONSTER in particular to know that the 2012 Toyota Camry comes with a new design featuring a redesign of almost every component to make a better end result in terms of comfort, security and driving experience. The Toyota Camry is the epitome of the four-door, mid-size sedan. Check out the 2012 Toyota Camry photos and see how Camry is taking transportation in a bold direction. Luxury. Innovative Technologies. A Redesigned Interior. Just click on the Toyota Camry pictures to see it all.
That's just for you, FAMOUS MONSTER.
posted by jaduncan at 9:37 AM on August 14, 2012 [3 favorites]
It isn't even about the 2013 Toyota Camry, although I'd like FAMOUS MONSTER in particular to know that the 2012 Toyota Camry comes with a new design featuring a redesign of almost every component to make a better end result in terms of comfort, security and driving experience. The Toyota Camry is the epitome of the four-door, mid-size sedan. Check out the 2012 Toyota Camry photos and see how Camry is taking transportation in a bold direction. Luxury. Innovative Technologies. A Redesigned Interior. Just click on the Toyota Camry pictures to see it all.
That's just for you, FAMOUS MONSTER.
posted by jaduncan at 9:37 AM on August 14, 2012 [3 favorites]
APPLE APPLE APPLE APPLE BUY AN APPLE always seems to be fine.
APPLE APPLE APPLE APPLE BUY AN APPLE and here's an interesting article about the tech, some background and some pictures sits fine with me, and I don't buy Apple stuff myself.
posted by jaduncan at 9:42 AM on August 14, 2012
APPLE APPLE APPLE APPLE BUY AN APPLE and here's an interesting article about the tech, some background and some pictures sits fine with me, and I don't buy Apple stuff myself.
posted by jaduncan at 9:42 AM on August 14, 2012
Posts consisting of virtually nothing but ads for movies regularly stand.
posted by cog_nate at 9:46 AM on August 14, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by cog_nate at 9:46 AM on August 14, 2012 [6 favorites]
A couple of things lately have had me do a double take recently, thinking: "Huh? Is that what Mefi is for?"
Not like it's necessarily bad, more just what not what I had come to assume, and wondering if I had misunderstood what the expectations were.
Essentially, I thought we were sharing "the best of the web", rather than "the best things in life". i.e. I would expect to see FPP's that highlighted a fantastic piece of writing about Dominion, or listed some wonderful fansites for Orbital. But I would have assumed that to make a post about how wonderful Dominion was would be considered GYOB territory.
Btw, I like Orbital, and Dominon sounds great! Nothing against the things themselves, or the people who made the posts, who are also great.
More I'm wondering what the boundaries are, and if they are elsewhere than I thought, maybe I'll construct some FPPs along those lines too.
posted by philipy at 9:52 AM on August 14, 2012 [3 favorites]
Not like it's necessarily bad, more just what not what I had come to assume, and wondering if I had misunderstood what the expectations were.
Essentially, I thought we were sharing "the best of the web", rather than "the best things in life". i.e. I would expect to see FPP's that highlighted a fantastic piece of writing about Dominion, or listed some wonderful fansites for Orbital. But I would have assumed that to make a post about how wonderful Dominion was would be considered GYOB territory.
Btw, I like Orbital, and Dominon sounds great! Nothing against the things themselves, or the people who made the posts, who are also great.
More I'm wondering what the boundaries are, and if they are elsewhere than I thought, maybe I'll construct some FPPs along those lines too.
posted by philipy at 9:52 AM on August 14, 2012 [3 favorites]
...maybe I'll construct some FPPs along those lines too.
I would like to congratulate you on ending a "this is FPP material?" comment in the single most constructive manner I have ever seen.
posted by griphus at 9:55 AM on August 14, 2012 [3 favorites]
I would like to congratulate you on ending a "this is FPP material?" comment in the single most constructive manner I have ever seen.
posted by griphus at 9:55 AM on August 14, 2012 [3 favorites]
I had never heard of Dominion before that post, because I am a busy person with Important Duties. Not everyone reads Geek Weekly or Nerd Digest; some of us rely on secondary sources of Dorktainment information—sources like MetaFilter. Thanks to the poindextrous poster!
Although I do agree that it would have been better to have included more than the one link to the commerce site above the fold.
posted by Mister_A at 9:56 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
Although I do agree that it would have been better to have included more than the one link to the commerce site above the fold.
posted by Mister_A at 9:56 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
If you're going to make fun, you should get your facts straight. Geek Weekly was absorbed into the Amalgamated Dorkery publishing conglomerate and rebranded in 2004. It's now just called GK. And Nerd Digest hasn't had an issue out since it folded in 1983. Are you sure you're not thinking of Nerd Forum which was published as Nerd Digest and Forum between 1990 and 1993?
posted by griphus at 9:59 AM on August 14, 2012 [9 favorites]
posted by griphus at 9:59 AM on August 14, 2012 [9 favorites]
APPLE APPLE
It's all fucking. HONEYCRISP 4LIFE AND GALAS RULE and no you don't grasp apples unless you have a Fancy Newfig Pinnery and shit
posted by The Whelk at 10:11 AM on August 14, 2012 [9 favorites]
It's all fucking. HONEYCRISP 4LIFE AND GALAS RULE and no you don't grasp apples unless you have a Fancy Newfig Pinnery and shit
posted by The Whelk at 10:11 AM on August 14, 2012 [9 favorites]
Strange I thought this site was Amalgamated Dorkery.
posted by philipy at 10:12 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by philipy at 10:12 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
LOSE WEIGHT NOW ASK ME HOW Herbalife people.
I know one of these people. He's earning €1k a month or so, apparently. The cost of that €1k is that he will talk about Herbalife at every opportunity. I mean, to the point it's a running joke, and every time someone's losing weight without it he'll say it's dangerous, every time they're gaining weight he'll mention it and attempt to persuade them to take Herbalife, or just merely say quietly to people that maybe they should use it for their health.
It's a mixture of depressing and amusing in a "this is NOT pyramid selling" way.
posted by jaduncan at 10:13 AM on August 14, 2012
I know one of these people. He's earning €1k a month or so, apparently. The cost of that €1k is that he will talk about Herbalife at every opportunity. I mean, to the point it's a running joke, and every time someone's losing weight without it he'll say it's dangerous, every time they're gaining weight he'll mention it and attempt to persuade them to take Herbalife, or just merely say quietly to people that maybe they should use it for their health.
It's a mixture of depressing and amusing in a "this is NOT pyramid selling" way.
posted by jaduncan at 10:13 AM on August 14, 2012
I would never use an APPLE. I stick to GRAPES. Why don't you use GRAPES, Whelk? Is it because you hate freedom?
etc.
posted by jaduncan at 10:14 AM on August 14, 2012
etc.
posted by jaduncan at 10:14 AM on August 14, 2012
Please I drink bottles of grape juice every night.
posted by The Whelk at 10:16 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 10:16 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
Have it both ways with Grāpple®! Now with more macrons!!
posted by theodolite at 10:21 AM on August 14, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 10:21 AM on August 14, 2012 [4 favorites]
Oh, snap!(ple)
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:25 AM on August 14, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:25 AM on August 14, 2012 [2 favorites]
Wow, that logo sure does look like it says "Crapple." Which happens to be what we call our dog (who is named Apple) when she's bad.
posted by griphus at 10:25 AM on August 14, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by griphus at 10:25 AM on August 14, 2012 [2 favorites]
Yeah she is basically the only APPLE I picture when people mention apple(s) in a post. It makes OS wars much more pleasant.
posted by elizardbits at 10:38 AM on August 14, 2012
posted by elizardbits at 10:38 AM on August 14, 2012
Posts consisting of virtually nothing but ads for movies regularly stand.
That’s a thing I completely don’t understand. It’s not like those movies are some sort of secret that fans might not hear about.
posted by bongo_x at 10:47 AM on August 14, 2012
That’s a thing I completely don’t understand. It’s not like those movies are some sort of secret that fans might not hear about.
posted by bongo_x at 10:47 AM on August 14, 2012
The Whelk: "
It's all fucking. HONEYCRISP 4LIFE AND GALAS RULE and no you don't grasp apples unless you have a Fancy Newfig Pinnery and shit"
HONEYCRISP?!? Sir, I will have to ask you for the satisfaction of a duel.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:48 AM on August 14, 2012
It's all fucking. HONEYCRISP 4LIFE AND GALAS RULE and no you don't grasp apples unless you have a Fancy Newfig Pinnery and shit"
HONEYCRISP?!? Sir, I will have to ask you for the satisfaction of a duel.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:48 AM on August 14, 2012
I thought we were sharing "the best of the web", rather than "the best things in life".
What if the web is your life?
Asking for a friend.
posted by desjardins at 10:54 AM on August 14, 2012 [8 favorites]
What if the web is your life?
Asking for a friend.
posted by desjardins at 10:54 AM on August 14, 2012 [8 favorites]
On the recently deleted Pepsi Blue side of things...
posted by jaduncan at 10:59 AM on August 14, 2012
posted by jaduncan at 10:59 AM on August 14, 2012
APPLE
HI PUPPY!
No, I don't have a soft spot for dogses. Why do you ask?
posted by MissySedai at 11:27 AM on August 14, 2012
HI PUPPY!
No, I don't have a soft spot for dogses. Why do you ask?
posted by MissySedai at 11:27 AM on August 14, 2012
I'm sad that I'm pretty attached to my online persona here -- because I really want to be "Poindextrous Poster" now.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:29 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:29 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
I always thought the non-commercial rule was aimed more at posts that pretend to be one thing but are in fact shills, rather than genuinely crafted posts about something that happens to be a commercial venture.
It's true that single links to nerd-worthy movie trailers might be pushing the boundaries of 'best of the web', but probably not any more than single links to any other material that relates to a particular interest of the poster, which generally are allowed to stand.
I don't think MeFi's tagline of "best of the web" is even accurate anymore (if it ever was), though I'm not suggesting it ought to be dropped. The expansion of the community means posts that stand are really more "of interest to a decent chunk of people and even relatively thin ones will probably stand if they skew more arty/techy/geeky/socially progressive."
I've personally zero interest in card-based board games, but I see no reason this post shouldn't stand, because I can see how it would be appealing and informative to a good chunk of people in MeFi's community.
posted by modernnomad at 11:39 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
It's true that single links to nerd-worthy movie trailers might be pushing the boundaries of 'best of the web', but probably not any more than single links to any other material that relates to a particular interest of the poster, which generally are allowed to stand.
I don't think MeFi's tagline of "best of the web" is even accurate anymore (if it ever was), though I'm not suggesting it ought to be dropped. The expansion of the community means posts that stand are really more "of interest to a decent chunk of people and even relatively thin ones will probably stand if they skew more arty/techy/geeky/socially progressive."
I've personally zero interest in card-based board games, but I see no reason this post shouldn't stand, because I can see how it would be appealing and informative to a good chunk of people in MeFi's community.
posted by modernnomad at 11:39 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
modernnomad: "I don't think MeFi's tagline of "best of the web" is even accurate anymore (if it ever was), though I'm not suggesting it ought to be dropped."
iirc, "best of the web" was something that was someplace in some guildelines somewhere on the site and has since been replaced with the concise but slightly less cryptic guidelines you quoted above. People who do the dismissive "eh, not the best of the web" snarks are being unimaginative and intellectually lazy when English (and other languages) gives us so many more ways to dislike a post.posted by Chrysostom at 11:52 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
Basically it's something people used to say and don't say so much anymore but they trot it out when they can't think of anything better to say. Did you have a particular post in mind that you were thinking of when you made this post?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:44 AM on March 18, 2007
mr_crash_davis: "APPLE APPLE"
My ... name ... is ... Macintosh.
posted by Apropos of Something at 11:59 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
My ... name ... is ... Macintosh.
posted by Apropos of Something at 11:59 AM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
Out of pure curiosity, what are the "concise but slightly less cryptic guidelines you quoted above?"
The metafilter post page still says "Found something cool on the web and want to share it with everyone else?" which leads me to believe that posts should still be about cool web-stuff, which is one reason I get sort of peeved at posts where the cool web stuff is buried and the 'explanation of cool web stuff' is all front-loaded. The other reason is that I'm sort of lazy.
posted by muddgirl at 12:01 PM on August 14, 2012
The metafilter post page still says "Found something cool on the web and want to share it with everyone else?" which leads me to believe that posts should still be about cool web-stuff, which is one reason I get sort of peeved at posts where the cool web stuff is buried and the 'explanation of cool web stuff' is all front-loaded. The other reason is that I'm sort of lazy.
posted by muddgirl at 12:01 PM on August 14, 2012
Sorry, Jessamyn's comment was from this post.
The Posting Guidelines are the canonical resource, I guess. Also see the wiki's "What Is A Good Post" page.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:09 PM on August 14, 2012
The Posting Guidelines are the canonical resource, I guess. Also see the wiki's "What Is A Good Post" page.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:09 PM on August 14, 2012
I don't think MeFi's tagline of "best of the web" is even accurate anymore
The way I see "best of the web" is that it's highly subjective—your "best of the web" will almost certainly not be my "best of the web"—but at the same time, it's not entirely meaningless: I see it as a standard each poster should hold themself to. That is, I post only what I think is the best of the web, and hope other posters only post what they think is the best of the web, while at the same time acknowledging that what someone else thinks is the best of the web is not what I think is the best of the web, and vice versa.
And if everyone holds themselves to that standard, I think it improves the overall quality. Your best of the web may not be my best of the web, but your best of the web is probably at least moderately interesting to a good number of MeFites.
This also implies that "not the best of the web" is generally not a valid criticism for me to throw at other people's posts: each MeFite is their own judge of what is "the best of the web," for their own posts only. It means I try to (to borrow a Wikipedianism) assume good faith regarding other posts: I generally assume that the links were the best of the web to the person who posted it. In very, very rare cases (I'm talking a few times a year, probably because most of them are deleted before I ever see them) it is completely unfathomable to me that the links were the best of the web to anybody, in which case I FIAMO.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:13 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
The way I see "best of the web" is that it's highly subjective—your "best of the web" will almost certainly not be my "best of the web"—but at the same time, it's not entirely meaningless: I see it as a standard each poster should hold themself to. That is, I post only what I think is the best of the web, and hope other posters only post what they think is the best of the web, while at the same time acknowledging that what someone else thinks is the best of the web is not what I think is the best of the web, and vice versa.
And if everyone holds themselves to that standard, I think it improves the overall quality. Your best of the web may not be my best of the web, but your best of the web is probably at least moderately interesting to a good number of MeFites.
This also implies that "not the best of the web" is generally not a valid criticism for me to throw at other people's posts: each MeFite is their own judge of what is "the best of the web," for their own posts only. It means I try to (to borrow a Wikipedianism) assume good faith regarding other posts: I generally assume that the links were the best of the web to the person who posted it. In very, very rare cases (I'm talking a few times a year, probably because most of them are deleted before I ever see them) it is completely unfathomable to me that the links were the best of the web to anybody, in which case I FIAMO.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:13 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think we also have to accept that sometimes someone is going to make a mediocre post, and that mediocre posts aren't going to be deleted. I know that accepting that is something I struggle with, but ultimately Metafilter is not heavily curated, and that's a good thing.
posted by muddgirl at 12:16 PM on August 14, 2012
posted by muddgirl at 12:16 PM on August 14, 2012
I didn't really understand your quote Chrysostom since it lacked any explanation of why you had selected it, but if the implication was that I am complaining that MeFi is not 'best of the web', that is incorrect. My suggestion was that not all posts need to reach that threshold, and that this is not a bad thing. I think posts should stand so long as they are of interest to a decent number of people. The board game post clearly sparked off an interesting discussion amongst fans of the game, and for me, that's good enough.
posted by modernnomad at 12:16 PM on August 14, 2012
posted by modernnomad at 12:16 PM on August 14, 2012
Or, what devilsadvocate said more eloquently than me.
posted by modernnomad at 12:17 PM on August 14, 2012
posted by modernnomad at 12:17 PM on August 14, 2012
modernnomad: "I didn't really understand your quote Chrysostom since it lacked any explanation of why you had selected it, but if the implication was that I am complaining that MeFi is not 'best of the web', that is incorrect."
No, I wasn't trying to imply that at all. You had originally said, "I don't think MeFi's tagline of "best of the web" is even accurate anymore (if it ever was), though I'm not suggesting it ought to be dropped." The point of the quote was that, per the mods, it hasn't been a tagline since five years ago, at least. So it's long since been dropped.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:33 PM on August 14, 2012
No, I wasn't trying to imply that at all. You had originally said, "I don't think MeFi's tagline of "best of the web" is even accurate anymore (if it ever was), though I'm not suggesting it ought to be dropped." The point of the quote was that, per the mods, it hasn't been a tagline since five years ago, at least. So it's long since been dropped.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:33 PM on August 14, 2012
board (?) gaming
Cortex touches on an interesting point: Dominion (and many other games popular in the board gaming community) don't actually have boards, so in the most technical sense they aren't board games. Yet I don't know of any better name, and "board gaming" is generally understood (at least within the community) to include such games. "Tabletop games" is occasionally suggested, but in my experience that is more often used for a wider class which also includes collectible card games, (non-live-action) role-playing games, and games using only standard playing cards, none of which are generally considered board games.
So I guess I'm saying I don't have a precise definition and there are certainly edge cases out there, but "board games" don't necessarily have to have boards.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:51 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
Cortex touches on an interesting point: Dominion (and many other games popular in the board gaming community) don't actually have boards, so in the most technical sense they aren't board games. Yet I don't know of any better name, and "board gaming" is generally understood (at least within the community) to include such games. "Tabletop games" is occasionally suggested, but in my experience that is more often used for a wider class which also includes collectible card games, (non-live-action) role-playing games, and games using only standard playing cards, none of which are generally considered board games.
So I guess I'm saying I don't have a precise definition and there are certainly edge cases out there, but "board games" don't necessarily have to have boards.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:51 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
APPLE APPLE APPLE APPLE BUY AN APPLE always seems to be fine.
I apologize wholeheartedly.
posted by Etrigan at 12:51 PM on August 14, 2012 [5 favorites]
I apologize wholeheartedly.
posted by Etrigan at 12:51 PM on August 14, 2012 [5 favorites]
Honeycrisp is a fine apple, but where is it now when I really need it? Pink Lady has been hit and miss lately. Gala and Braeburn will do if they have to. Fuji, Red Delicious and Granny Smith are usually at least tolerable. But the only top quality apple that has stuck with me through the dog days of summer is the Jazz apple, and for that I am here to sing its praises on MeTa.
posted by Balonious Assault at 12:56 PM on August 14, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Balonious Assault at 12:56 PM on August 14, 2012 [2 favorites]
Yet I don't know of any better name, and "board gaming" is generally understood (at least within the community) to include such games.
"Euro games" is often used to refer to both board and non-board varieties of games, even when the manufacturers are not in Europe. It usually means "family games that aren't Monopoly or Risk."
posted by muddgirl at 12:58 PM on August 14, 2012
"Euro games" is often used to refer to both board and non-board varieties of games, even when the manufacturers are not in Europe. It usually means "family games that aren't Monopoly or Risk."
posted by muddgirl at 12:58 PM on August 14, 2012
"Euro games" is often used to refer to both board and non-board varieties of games, even when the manufacturers are not in Europe. It usually means "family games that aren't Monopoly or Risk."
I agree that "Euro games" are not necessarily from Europe, but like gillrain says Eurogame is used to refer to a particular style of game, far more specific than "family games that aren't Monopoly or Risk." My group plays a mix of Euros and non-Euros. Among our favorites are Twilight Imperium 3rd ed. and the long-out-of-print and much-lamented Dune (previously on MeFi), which are decidedly not Euros.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:37 PM on August 14, 2012
I agree that "Euro games" are not necessarily from Europe, but like gillrain says Eurogame is used to refer to a particular style of game, far more specific than "family games that aren't Monopoly or Risk." My group plays a mix of Euros and non-Euros. Among our favorites are Twilight Imperium 3rd ed. and the long-out-of-print and much-lamented Dune (previously on MeFi), which are decidedly not Euros.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:37 PM on August 14, 2012
FYI Dune has been re-branded/re-released as Rex: Final Days of an Empire. Not 100% sure if it's exactly the same in every way, but it's the closest we're getting for a while.
Also, I swear to god even though it's lost a lot of connotation, "ameritrash" is still the stupidest fucking term in the board gaming community.
posted by griphus at 1:41 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
Also, I swear to god even though it's lost a lot of connotation, "ameritrash" is still the stupidest fucking term in the board gaming community.
posted by griphus at 1:41 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
Hey, wow, good job work-email-brain. I definitely did not mean to start a comment with "FYI" because that is hella annoying.
posted by griphus at 1:42 PM on August 14, 2012
posted by griphus at 1:42 PM on August 14, 2012
but like gillrain says Eurogame is used to refer to a particular style of game
Twilight Imperium is a Fantasy Flight Games game, which are usually somewhere between 'Ameritrash' and 'Eurogames.' I suppose on reflection this is based on the style of whatever tokens are in the game? Rio Grande games are 'Eurogames' because the tokens are very stylized. FFG games generally have more 'wargame' style semi-realistic figures.
posted by muddgirl at 1:43 PM on August 14, 2012
Twilight Imperium is a Fantasy Flight Games game, which are usually somewhere between 'Ameritrash' and 'Eurogames.' I suppose on reflection this is based on the style of whatever tokens are in the game? Rio Grande games are 'Eurogames' because the tokens are very stylized. FFG games generally have more 'wargame' style semi-realistic figures.
posted by muddgirl at 1:43 PM on August 14, 2012
I feel like the distinction refers to playstyle more than the style of the tokens. Eurogames are typically sit-down-and-play, with relatively short playtimes and simple, abstract rules -- they are "easy to learn, hard to master". Twilight Imperium is... not that.
posted by vorfeed at 2:07 PM on August 14, 2012
posted by vorfeed at 2:07 PM on August 14, 2012
I don't think MeFi's tagline of "best of the web" is even accurate anymore
I think depending on how you interpret it, the problem with that tagline is that it can be always accurate. Suppose there is some heinous subset of the web that metafilter never links to. Then metafilter is the best n% of the web where n = (100 - percentage of all the web comprised of that totally heinous stuff).
posted by juv3nal at 2:10 PM on August 14, 2012
I think depending on how you interpret it, the problem with that tagline is that it can be always accurate. Suppose there is some heinous subset of the web that metafilter never links to. Then metafilter is the best n% of the web where n = (100 - percentage of all the web comprised of that totally heinous stuff).
posted by juv3nal at 2:10 PM on August 14, 2012
I am torn, because on the one hand I have a bit of an instinctive prejudice against "Here is a cool new thing available for sale! And some information about it and why it's cool!" FPPs, and yet I am so often edified by them and excited by them to the point of wanting to go out and buy that very cool new thing, because people here seem to know about lots of very cool new things that I also have an instinctive love for these very posts against which I have an instinctive prejudice.
This is that "postmodern condition" thing the kids talk about, right?
Anyway, I liked this FPP because the cool new thing was described well and put in context, and probably mostly because the cool new thing was very new to me. The "Here is a motion picture being released all over the world!" FPPs I like a bit less, because those cool new things are something I get information about elsewhere before they hit MetaFilter. But that's just me, and this isn't JuliaFilter.
Seems like this is a useful conversation to have every now and then, in any case.
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:18 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
This is that "postmodern condition" thing the kids talk about, right?
Anyway, I liked this FPP because the cool new thing was described well and put in context, and probably mostly because the cool new thing was very new to me. The "Here is a motion picture being released all over the world!" FPPs I like a bit less, because those cool new things are something I get information about elsewhere before they hit MetaFilter. But that's just me, and this isn't JuliaFilter.
Seems like this is a useful conversation to have every now and then, in any case.
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:18 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
No, it's not the style of the token which determines whether a game is a Eurogame or Ameritrash (I share griphus's dislike for this term, but don't know a better one). It's true that Eurogames tend to have highly abstracted tokens, but Ameritrash runs the gamut of semi-realistic to abstract.
Eurogames tend to focus more on economics/allocation of limited resources, and tend to have only indirect conflict (or no conflict at all, a condition which its detractors refer to as "multi-player solitaire.") The rules tend to be relatively (relatively!) simple. Ameritrash is more likely to involve direct conflict (if your rulebook has a section labeled "Combat," it's probably Ameritrash), and is likely to have more complex rules involving lots of special cases.
A semi-tongue-in-cheek illustration: if Ticket to Ride were an Ameritrash game, you'd be able to attack and try to destroy your opponents' trains. And you'd have five different kinds of trains you could play, each with advantages and disadvantages. And there would be terrain and weather modifiers.
One of my favorite games that bridges the two is Imperial: it's played on a map of Europe and the surrounding area, involving six powers, ca. WWI. (There's also a global version, Imperial 2030, which has surprisingly few rule changes compared to the original.) There is combat, but it's about the simplest combat rule ever to appear in a board game: when two forces come into conflict, remove an equal number of units from both sides such that one side is eliminated (both sides if they started with equal forces). No dice rolling at all.
The particularly intriguing part is that the players don't play the countries directly; they represent the shadowy forces that bid for influence over the countries during the course of the game, and who controls which country frequently changes. It can be amusing to see a country shift its entire on-board strategic focus after a change of power. (E.g., Germany may be fighting Russia, but then someone else gains control of Germany who is also invested in seeing Russia do well, so all of a sudden Germany and Russia are at peace and all the German forces head over to fight France. Even then Germany might not want to leave itself completely undefended on its Eastern front, as someone else might take over Russia next turn...)
----------
FYI Dune has been re-branded/re-released as Rex: Final Days of an Empire. Not 100% sure if it's exactly the same in every way, but it's the closest we're getting for a while.
Ooh, thanks for pointing that out, I'll have to look into that. My copy of Dune is looking pretty worn, considering the quality wasn't that high to begin with, especially the Spice and Treachery cards.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:34 PM on August 14, 2012
Eurogames tend to focus more on economics/allocation of limited resources, and tend to have only indirect conflict (or no conflict at all, a condition which its detractors refer to as "multi-player solitaire.") The rules tend to be relatively (relatively!) simple. Ameritrash is more likely to involve direct conflict (if your rulebook has a section labeled "Combat," it's probably Ameritrash), and is likely to have more complex rules involving lots of special cases.
A semi-tongue-in-cheek illustration: if Ticket to Ride were an Ameritrash game, you'd be able to attack and try to destroy your opponents' trains. And you'd have five different kinds of trains you could play, each with advantages and disadvantages. And there would be terrain and weather modifiers.
One of my favorite games that bridges the two is Imperial: it's played on a map of Europe and the surrounding area, involving six powers, ca. WWI. (There's also a global version, Imperial 2030, which has surprisingly few rule changes compared to the original.) There is combat, but it's about the simplest combat rule ever to appear in a board game: when two forces come into conflict, remove an equal number of units from both sides such that one side is eliminated (both sides if they started with equal forces). No dice rolling at all.
The particularly intriguing part is that the players don't play the countries directly; they represent the shadowy forces that bid for influence over the countries during the course of the game, and who controls which country frequently changes. It can be amusing to see a country shift its entire on-board strategic focus after a change of power. (E.g., Germany may be fighting Russia, but then someone else gains control of Germany who is also invested in seeing Russia do well, so all of a sudden Germany and Russia are at peace and all the German forces head over to fight France. Even then Germany might not want to leave itself completely undefended on its Eastern front, as someone else might take over Russia next turn...)
----------
FYI Dune has been re-branded/re-released as Rex: Final Days of an Empire. Not 100% sure if it's exactly the same in every way, but it's the closest we're getting for a while.
Ooh, thanks for pointing that out, I'll have to look into that. My copy of Dune is looking pretty worn, considering the quality wasn't that high to begin with, especially the Spice and Treachery cards.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:34 PM on August 14, 2012
I had the same thought about the Copper mugshot generator. Clearly not Pepsi Blue per se, but it seemed weak-ish to build a post around a link to an internet toy built to promote a TV show.
That said, sometimes it is fun to enjoy making your own mugshots, or retro illustration style profile pictures, or Simpsonize Yourself or whatnot. Who am I to judge?
posted by Sara C. at 2:38 PM on August 14, 2012
That said, sometimes it is fun to enjoy making your own mugshots, or retro illustration style profile pictures, or Simpsonize Yourself or whatnot. Who am I to judge?
posted by Sara C. at 2:38 PM on August 14, 2012
Sidhedevil: "But that's just me, and this isn't JuliaFilter."
I'm doing it wrong? :(
posted by zarq at 2:46 PM on August 14, 2012 [5 favorites]
I'm doing it wrong? :(
posted by zarq at 2:46 PM on August 14, 2012 [5 favorites]
Sure, Dominion's no dead Sweathog, but good god, what is?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:52 PM on August 14, 2012
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:52 PM on August 14, 2012
Eurogames tend to focus more on economics/allocation of limited resources, and tend to have only indirect conflict (or no conflict at all, a condition which its detractors refer to as "multi-player solitaire.")
So... Monopoly is a Euro game, then. :)
posted by muddgirl at 2:55 PM on August 14, 2012
So... Monopoly is a Euro game, then. :)
posted by muddgirl at 2:55 PM on August 14, 2012
I'm doing it wrong? :(
Depends, how many sticks of butter did you use making that FPP?
posted by Gygesringtone at 2:56 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
Depends, how many sticks of butter did you use making that FPP?
posted by Gygesringtone at 2:56 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yeah, basically I don't like this weird distinction between Eurogames and non-Euro games. What about Small World? Actually made in Europe, by an independent designer, with both limited resources AND risk-style combat.
posted by muddgirl at 2:59 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 2:59 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
Gygesringtone: " Depends, how many sticks of butter did you use making that FPP?"
A nice estate-bottled Chateau Gravée Mastere and four sticks of butter helped grease the links, so to speak.
posted by zarq at 3:00 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
A nice estate-bottled Chateau Gravée Mastere and four sticks of butter helped grease the links, so to speak.
posted by zarq at 3:00 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
(Also, Dominion would just be a card game.)
In a simpler universe, but "card game" is so strongly associated historically with "game played with (usually one deck, occasionally two decks, usually poker/bridge 52 card deck, occasionally pinochle 48 card deck) of standard royal-themed ranked and suited playing cards" that a card game that requires a custom deck almost needs an additional label to clarify that.
Which is fading a bit over time I'd guess what with the sea change Magic and Pokemon in particular have brought in the perceptions of young players, but still, we see "collectible card game" as a genre for those far more than "card game". Awkward as it is, "non-collectible deck-building game" would be a better description of Dominion than "card game" for folks likely to be able to suss meaning out of that, and "board game with cards" is better than "card game" for folks unfamiliar with the genre, since Dominion's play and ruleset are much more like a board game than like traditional playing card games, whether or not the pieces all happen to be cards.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:24 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
In a simpler universe, but "card game" is so strongly associated historically with "game played with (usually one deck, occasionally two decks, usually poker/bridge 52 card deck, occasionally pinochle 48 card deck) of standard royal-themed ranked and suited playing cards" that a card game that requires a custom deck almost needs an additional label to clarify that.
Which is fading a bit over time I'd guess what with the sea change Magic and Pokemon in particular have brought in the perceptions of young players, but still, we see "collectible card game" as a genre for those far more than "card game". Awkward as it is, "non-collectible deck-building game" would be a better description of Dominion than "card game" for folks likely to be able to suss meaning out of that, and "board game with cards" is better than "card game" for folks unfamiliar with the genre, since Dominion's play and ruleset are much more like a board game than like traditional playing card games, whether or not the pieces all happen to be cards.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:24 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
Wait, aren't you the one who objected to the 'board' term in the first place? Personally I just call them all board games, from Ticket to Ride to Cranium to Carcasonne to Apples to Apples.
posted by muddgirl at 3:26 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 3:26 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
Wait, aren't you the one who objected to the 'board' term in the first place?
I wasn't objecting, I was just acknowledging the semantic complexity of the genre situation. I was delighting in a small ambiguity!
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:28 PM on August 14, 2012 [2 favorites]
I wasn't objecting, I was just acknowledging the semantic complexity of the genre situation. I was delighting in a small ambiguity!
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:28 PM on August 14, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm doing it wrong? :(
Yes, you didn't mention NASA at all, wtf?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:28 PM on August 14, 2012
Yes, you didn't mention NASA at all, wtf?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:28 PM on August 14, 2012
If it were code there'd be a
posted by fleacircus at 3:33 PM on August 14, 2012 [2 favorites]
Games.Card and Games.Board, and within the latter there'd be Games.Board.Card with a snarky comment in the header.posted by fleacircus at 3:33 PM on August 14, 2012 [2 favorites]
One of its first playtesters and creator of a couple of the cards is also a MeFite.
posted by fleacircus at 3:46 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by fleacircus at 3:46 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
This doesn't even approach the threshold for Pepsi Blue.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:13 PM on August 14, 2012
posted by DarlingBri at 4:13 PM on August 14, 2012
DevilsAdvocate: Since we've derailed this into yet another thread about board games, which would you recommend? Imperial or Imperial 2030? The concept sounds intriguing and I feel like I should seek out one or both versions of the game.
(I can take this to MeMail, if the mods would prefer, but I suspect that I'm not the only one interested in a recommendation.)
posted by asnider at 6:07 PM on August 14, 2012
(I can take this to MeMail, if the mods would prefer, but I suspect that I'm not the only one interested in a recommendation.)
posted by asnider at 6:07 PM on August 14, 2012
You could go with either one and not make a mistake. Like I said, there's very few rule changes between the two, just different maps and powers. If I had to choose, I'd probably pick the original, but just by a hair and I'm not sure I can really articulate why.
In my gaming group, I own both versions of Imperial. I don't bring my entire game collection to a session (I have too many) but pick a handful to bring. I almost always bring one of the Imperials but not both, and I usually just alternate—whichever one we played most recently, I bring the other one. I haven't had anyone in the group express a preference for one or the other, so that's additional evidence for them being about equally good.
Another nice feature is that they accommodate up to six players, whereas many of the Euros only take up to five players, so if we have six then one of the Imperials is a likely choice. (While many games can be played with three, there are few that are actually good with three so we generally don't split into two tables of three.) But it also works well with fewer than six—because of the nature of the shifting control of powers, all six powers are in play even when there's fewer than six players; it just means one player will control more than one country at any given time (and who that player is shifts over the course of the game).
But that's true even at the full complement of six players: it's not uncommon for one player to control two countries and another to control none at all for awhile. We have one player in our group who tends towards not controlling any countries as a deliberate strategy, and has won a game or two while not controlling any countries for a majority of the game. Which might seem boring for him, but a) you have to have a good eye for which countries to invest in, even if you don't control them, and b) there's a certain amount of panache in winning this way.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:39 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
In my gaming group, I own both versions of Imperial. I don't bring my entire game collection to a session (I have too many) but pick a handful to bring. I almost always bring one of the Imperials but not both, and I usually just alternate—whichever one we played most recently, I bring the other one. I haven't had anyone in the group express a preference for one or the other, so that's additional evidence for them being about equally good.
Another nice feature is that they accommodate up to six players, whereas many of the Euros only take up to five players, so if we have six then one of the Imperials is a likely choice. (While many games can be played with three, there are few that are actually good with three so we generally don't split into two tables of three.) But it also works well with fewer than six—because of the nature of the shifting control of powers, all six powers are in play even when there's fewer than six players; it just means one player will control more than one country at any given time (and who that player is shifts over the course of the game).
But that's true even at the full complement of six players: it's not uncommon for one player to control two countries and another to control none at all for awhile. We have one player in our group who tends towards not controlling any countries as a deliberate strategy, and has won a game or two while not controlling any countries for a majority of the game. Which might seem boring for him, but a) you have to have a good eye for which countries to invest in, even if you don't control them, and b) there's a certain amount of panache in winning this way.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:39 PM on August 14, 2012 [1 favorite]
There's a lot of Dominion web content, which is what I wanted to showcase. The level of theory that gets discussed at Dominion Strategy is incredible - it really gives you a new appreciation for the game.
I had some pause about making the post, especially since the free-to-play Dominion site (Isotropic) is going away relatively soon. There's still Brettspielwelt, though (wish I had remembered that to put it in the post!). Apart from that, the basic game will be free-to-play whenever the iPad app gets released. One can enjoy Dominion on some level without paying any money whatsoever, and they can do so on the web, making it a best part of the web (in my opinion).
So that was my rationale in making the post.
posted by codacorolla at 8:09 PM on August 14, 2012
I had some pause about making the post, especially since the free-to-play Dominion site (Isotropic) is going away relatively soon. There's still Brettspielwelt, though (wish I had remembered that to put it in the post!). Apart from that, the basic game will be free-to-play whenever the iPad app gets released. One can enjoy Dominion on some level without paying any money whatsoever, and they can do so on the web, making it a best part of the web (in my opinion).
So that was my rationale in making the post.
posted by codacorolla at 8:09 PM on August 14, 2012
My understanding of the Pepsi Blue incident is that it was a direct shill for a product and was motivated by direct interest in promoting the product.
Actually, no, though the term has often (but not always) been used to suggest (whether credulously or sarcastically) the idea of shilling or skeevy promotional motivations.
If you check out the original Pepsi Blue post, it was actually a mildly derisive "product marketing news of the weird" type post by a (now long-time) member in good standing. People goofed on it in the thread, and then made further jokes about The Great Taste of Pepsi Blue and so on in random threads as a form of commentary about ad-tastic or ad-related stuff to the point where it became a site in-joke.
And from there it became a short-hand reference to various things in the bucket of ideas related to marketing and promotion. The idea that Pepsi Blue = shilling/astroturfing is actually a result of that later memetic drift as the usage grew and evolved among the userbase and gained distance from the original thread.
"Somebody shilled for Pepsi Blue" makes for an elegant and demonstrative origin story for the in-joke, though. If J. J. Abrams ever makes a movie about Metafilter, that'll be the new canon.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:27 PM on August 14, 2012 [4 favorites]
Actually, no, though the term has often (but not always) been used to suggest (whether credulously or sarcastically) the idea of shilling or skeevy promotional motivations.
If you check out the original Pepsi Blue post, it was actually a mildly derisive "product marketing news of the weird" type post by a (now long-time) member in good standing. People goofed on it in the thread, and then made further jokes about The Great Taste of Pepsi Blue and so on in random threads as a form of commentary about ad-tastic or ad-related stuff to the point where it became a site in-joke.
And from there it became a short-hand reference to various things in the bucket of ideas related to marketing and promotion. The idea that Pepsi Blue = shilling/astroturfing is actually a result of that later memetic drift as the usage grew and evolved among the userbase and gained distance from the original thread.
"Somebody shilled for Pepsi Blue" makes for an elegant and demonstrative origin story for the in-joke, though. If J. J. Abrams ever makes a movie about Metafilter, that'll be the new canon.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:27 PM on August 14, 2012 [4 favorites]
If I had to choose, I'd probably pick the original, but just by a hair and I'm not sure I can really articulate why.
Now that I think about it a bit more, I think I like Imperial slightly better than Imperial 2030 because there's less neutral territory on the original board. Control of neutral territory generates tax revenue, so less neutral territory = more on-board conflict.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:04 AM on August 15, 2012
Now that I think about it a bit more, I think I like Imperial slightly better than Imperial 2030 because there's less neutral territory on the original board. Control of neutral territory generates tax revenue, so less neutral territory = more on-board conflict.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:04 AM on August 15, 2012
These are always crazy to me as someone that loves marketing and advertising as a concept, but generally hates the execution (especially in this day and age).
I don't mind of a site is trying to sell me something as long as they also entertain me. I also have a soft spot for marketing gone wrong.
So I love posts that are total Pepsi blue.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:44 AM on August 15, 2012
I don't mind of a site is trying to sell me something as long as they also entertain me. I also have a soft spot for marketing gone wrong.
So I love posts that are total Pepsi blue.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:44 AM on August 15, 2012
Most art is made with the primary or secondary purpose of getting people to pay for it, even if only so the artist can keep eating and thereby live to produce more art. Labeling any post about a commercial product as "Pepsi Blue" and not worthy of MetaFilter strikes me as unnecessarily dismissive of a whole range of neat stuff.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:28 PM on August 15, 2012
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:28 PM on August 15, 2012
Metafilter may be the best of the web but it is not the best in life.
So what is best in life you ask?
Answer!
posted by The Violet Cypher at 11:32 AM on August 16, 2012
So what is best in life you ask?
Answer!
posted by The Violet Cypher at 11:32 AM on August 16, 2012
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posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 9:02 AM on August 14, 2012