post delete (occupy metatalk)

October 26, 2011 1:58 AM

October 26, 2011 1:33 AM Subscribe Tear Gas is fired at Occupy Oakland(twitter hashtag search). NY Times live blog comments. posted by Shit Parade (5 comments total) [!] This post was deleted for the following reason: Metafilter is not a news site, and isn't the best spot for reporting every single new development on the OWS story; if OP or someone wants to work this news into a more in-depth MeFi sort of thing, that might work. -- taz

I understand metafilter isn't a news site but this is more than news. Please stop the heavy hand.

posted by Shit Parade to Etiquette/Policy at 1:58 AM (71 comments total)

also, "in-depth Mefi sort of thing" is utter BS, we have SLYT posts.
posted by Shit Parade at 1:59 AM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

News posts have a higher bar, because Mefi isn't a news site. From what I'm seeing this incident is over, so there's time to work on a better post that possibly examines what this means in the larger picture.
posted by taz (staff) at 2:04 AM on October 26, 2011 [18 favorites]

how about I just make a SLYT filled with tear gas, that isn't news, it's people being awesome.
posted by Shit Parade at 2:06 AM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

this is more than news

Sure looks like news to me.
posted by Forktine at 2:08 AM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

how can anyone look at force being applied to peaceful assemblies and talk only of news?
posted by Shit Parade at 2:10 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

i have work tomorrow and sleep to get. metafilter fail.
posted by Shit Parade at 2:10 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Eponysterical.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:13 AM on October 26, 2011 [24 favorites]

Despite the tear gas, it still smells like news. Better just added to the open OWS thread?
posted by arcticseal at 2:33 AM on October 26, 2011

I think "Shit Parade" perfectly sums up that post.
posted by joannemullen at 2:38 AM on October 26, 2011 [6 favorites]

Metafilter: Your username is ridiculous and let them eat cake
posted by CautionToTheWind at 2:43 AM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

Related question: What's with using "we" to describe the Occupy mob?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 2:43 AM on October 26, 2011

A twitter search and liveblog? The bar is for high jump, my friend, not limbo.

If it's more than news, I think it's incumbent on the poster to demonstrate it by linking to more than the most barebones imaginable news. If it's more than news, you need to show it; the meat of posts should be off metafilter, not on it.
posted by smoke at 2:44 AM on October 26, 2011 [15 favorites]

Looks like the Oakland occupiers...

SUNGLASSES

...aren't the only ones in tears tonight.

YEEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
posted by obiwanwasabi at 2:52 AM on October 26, 2011 [42 favorites]

how can anyone look at force being applied to peaceful assemblies and talk only of news?

Well, that's what you did in the post.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:00 AM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

how can anyone look at force being applied to peaceful assemblies and talk only of news?

It sounds like this is an important post.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 3:24 AM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

Shit Parade, I'd recommend searching Metafilter for "Egypt" and looking around the end of January 2011 to see how to do new posts about ongoing protests better.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 3:26 AM on October 26, 2011 [5 favorites]

How can you talk of news when there is news going on?
posted by Admiral Haddock at 3:27 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

I am outraged at this outrageous outrage. It is truly, truly outrageous.
posted by Eideteker at 3:43 AM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

Thanks. The system has worked. Well played everybody.
posted by peacay at 3:48 AM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

Suggestions for how to make a better post about this:

There are several news articles out, which give details. Link to them. The issue seems to have started by police dismantling an encampment, which sparked protest. Link to similar story that went differently in New York, which touching briefly on how the OWS has changed and grown since inception. Then finish off with this latest development and link to pieces that attempt to determine the aftermath of this particular skirmish.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:50 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

I'm not going to count, but it feels like there's already dozens of Occupy threads open in which this could easily have gone. A heavy hand would be deleting every post about the movement and referring people to the original thread. This seems like a good balance, and while it's unfortunate that your post got deleted, them's the breaks.
posted by moviehawk at 3:50 AM on October 26, 2011

Or someone could a short post spotlighting crown control techniques in the US, where they've been, where they're going.

Or do a post just about tear gas, such as when it started being used, how it's chemical composition has changed over the years (has it?), how different countries use it it differently or find studies that show what its use tends to signal in protest movements.

Imo, it's fine to link to this event, but please show me something or share information I'm not likely to get anywhere else on the web.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:56 AM on October 26, 2011

It seems to me that a part of the problem is that people want to be the first to post something. If it were well done, it probably could have justified its own post, but that would require time. And if you spend too much time, someone beats you to the post.

But you should spend the time necessary to make a good post. If someone beats you to it, so be it - then you can discuss it in the new thread if it remains; if not, post the well-though-out FPP you've been preparing. It's not a competition.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 4:02 AM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

This is like hazing for the new mod.
posted by allkindsoftime at 4:31 AM on October 26, 2011 [6 favorites]

Good deletion taz, don't sweat it.
posted by Gator at 4:59 AM on October 26, 2011 [15 favorites]

First comment in the post was a half-hearted acknowledgement of the fact that it was probably going to be considered for deletion. Metatalk thread is posted and then abandoned in 10 minutes. None of this points to a good faith engagement with Metafilter.
posted by penduluum at 5:05 AM on October 26, 2011 [16 favorites]

Given that there are EIGHTEEN open threads with some kind of Occupy angle, I'd love to know which one you think is the relevant one that's two weeks old. Your anger makes for a poor post to the blue, and your self-righteousness a ludicrous one here.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 5:12 AM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

Good deletion taz, don't sweat it.

Agreed. Lobbing tear gas into threads like that usually doesn't work. Sometimes the mods have to ride a horse into the crowed blue, knock an FPP in the head, and arrest it before it starts a riot.
posted by three blind mice at 5:15 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Thanks, taz, that needed to be deleted.
posted by OmieWise at 5:18 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Better just added to the open OWS thread?

We should have a new CAPSLOCK thread each month and put all the outrage-du-jour-links-that-should-go-in-the-open-thread posts there. Then it can be shouted about all until the caps lock key malfunctions.

Appropriate deletion for this OWS thread? Yup.
posted by lampshade at 5:28 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

OK, I gotta say, that was not a good FPP, and deletion was the right call. There are plenty of ways that could be developed into a workable FPP. And, really, calling out the deletion was not a wise move, nor was starting off with a half-dozen fighty self-moderating comments. With the exception of an actual flame-out, this is almost a textbook example of how not to carry on on Metafilter.

However, I am bugged by the hectoring tone of the responses here. Brandon Blatcher, Philosopher Dirtbike, and a few others had constructive responses, but there is a lot of sniping and piling on. Is the intent of this thread to goad Shit Parade into a greater rage? Will that make him a better member of the site? Didn't we just do a "we need hugs" thread?
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:40 AM on October 26, 2011 [9 favorites]

Most of the front page is Not That.

We need something more substantial for a news post, because Metafilter isn't a news site – so just throwing up some bare "news-happening!" post doesn't usually fly.
posted by taz (staff) at 5:46 AM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

Didn't we just do a "we need hugs" thread?

Yes, but we also have had an endless number of posts about threads that complain about deletions. I like the "more hugs" movment on MF, but I would also like to see a bit of Read_The_Previous_Post_On_Why_Your_Thread_Was_Deleted_Before_Posting_Another_Meta_Thread movement by posters too. Or maybe a some Use_The_Contact_Form_If_Your_Post_Gets_Deleted movement on the part of posters with deleted threads.

If this thread wasn't opened in the first place, there would have been no hectoring tone to be bugged by.
posted by lampshade at 6:06 AM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

I think if Shit Parade didn't just jump in here with his "metafilter fail" attitude, there wouldn't have been such a pile on. There have been plenty of FPP deletion appeals handled in a more civil tone, and those generally go okay. But barging in with four of the first six comments in an angry tone, then abandoning the thread, I think Shit Parade is pretty much getting what he deserves.
posted by slogger at 6:11 AM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

eponysterical.
posted by crunchland at 6:24 AM on October 26, 2011

I think he was referring to himself when he said 'metafilter fail'. Cuz that's what this is.
posted by spicynuts at 6:35 AM on October 26, 2011

I think if Shit Parade didn't just jump in here with his "metafilter fail" attitude, there wouldn't have been such a pile on.

OK, fair enough. I expect hardly anyone agreed with him. But...

You can either respond to that with:
1) FIAMO
2) Some kind of helpful advice -- "Perhaps this post will explain what went wrong with your post," for example.
3) Some "snappy" or mean comment -- "Your post was crap and you have a dumb user name," for example.

One of these will encourage the thread to go badly; two will encourage the opposite or, at the worst, do no harm. I get the appeal of the snarky comeback to someone who is being this unreasonable, I do; I am just not sure if it is useful or worth it.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:38 AM on October 26, 2011

I agree with OP. Thanks for this post.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:50 AM on October 26, 2011

Yeah, this was pretty much a textbook delete. Like taz said, how you make a post matters more than whether or not you think it's important that a post exists; ignoring that first part in service of the second part is pretty much spoiling for a deletion, which is not a commentary on the worthiness of the topic but rather on the way in which you chose to engage the topic on the front page of Metafilter.

OWS has been a huge ongoing topic of discussion, and has had probably more posts than really necessary, but we've been trying to strike a balance of not clamping down just to keep the numbers from being on the high side: sometimes a topic will just be big and there'll be an outsized share of posts about it, and so be it. But the posts still need to be reasonably well-considered, and a bit more so than usual when there's already more of them than chance would indicate. The bar starts higher for news stuff and creeps up bit by bit as a topic gets done heavily over time.

If there's a solid, this-really-merits-a-new-thread sort of post to be made about this, someone can give that a shot. That's how it works here. Refraining from deleting poor posts because the topic is Really Important is not so much how it works.

Shit Parade, I can dig it if you were feeling upset or driven or whatever last night, but it wasn't a great post for the blue at all and your approach to this Metatalk was kind of needlessly combative as well. When I'm feeling that way and I know I have to go to bed, the thing that works for me best is to just skip trying to make a thing about whatever's bugging me and proceed directly to the going-to-bed part; it can be easier to thread some of these "I want to talk about why this is important to me" needles after some downtime, and certainly it's not a great idea to throw up a complaint for public discussion and then immediately bail on that discussion. Not a huge deal but worth thinking about for the future, it'd probably get you a better reception in general and make it easier for the thread to be about the actual policy question rather than how you broached it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:06 AM on October 26, 2011 [5 favorites]

it's not a great idea to throw up a complaint for public discussion and then immediately bail on that discussion.

I agree, and think this thread should be closed on those grounds.
posted by cribcage at 7:22 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

The torch has passed.
posted by Edogy at 7:26 AM on October 26, 2011

there is a lot of sniping and piling on. Is the intent of this thread to goad Shit Parade into a greater rage?

That's an old-MeTa meets new MeTa kind of thing.
posted by hermitosis at 7:29 AM on October 26, 2011

this is more than news

This strikes me as a "if you think it's something people need to see, you may be making a bad post" kind of scenario.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 7:29 AM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

I agree that lobbing teargas into people last night was a new milestone, but making a post linking to search results and a liveblog is about the worst way to present it. Shit Parade, you know it's important, so why not wait a few hours until there is some commentary, time to reflect on what it means, and some analysis of what happened, what went wrong, and what it means going forward. Posting a link to breaking news is almost never done here unless it's a really rare and big deal, but more importantly, if you want to inform readers of MetaFilter, you can do better than a search results page and blog post for source material.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:37 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

However, I am bugged by the hectoring tone of the responses here.

If this had been remotely along the lines "I don't understand why my post was deleted, can you please clarify" I think you'd have more of a case. The responses in this thread seem pretty temperate compared to Shit Parade's hostile and snotty attitude. And really, I'm not sure if you choose to style yourself Shit Parade that you can reasonably expect people not to remark upon it.

Good on enn for making a thoughtful and useful post about it.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 7:41 AM on October 26, 2011

Horace Rumpole: “The responses in this thread seem pretty temperate compared to Shit Parade's hostile and snotty attitude.”

Right and wrong aren't determined by comparison. I can't say, "well, I stole $500 from my neighbor, but that's virtually a saintly act compared to Bernie Madoff stealing billions upon billions!" There is plenty of piling on going on in this thread; if the person we were piling onto had taking a position that pleased us, we would see that more clearly, but it's no more wrong simply because we don't like the way the poster started this whole thing off.
posted by koeselitz at 7:57 AM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

If this had been remotely along the lines "I don't understand why my post was deleted, can you please clarify"

I also don't understand why everything has to be aired on MeTa as some sort of referendum. If your post was deleted, email a mod and ask for some additional clarification. We don't need to stand witness to your grievances. I hasten to add, the OP in these MeTa gripes usually comes off poorly. Do yourself a favor and complain quietly, or not at all.

Same thing with technical hiccups on the site--email the mods.

We don't need to discuss everything collectively.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 8:00 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

proceed directly to the going-to-bed part

This tends to work really well for me. But really this was basically a "please make a better post about this topic if you think it's important" situation. For MeFi to do a "breaking news" sort of thing with fairly thin links it has to be something significantly more end-of-the-world type. And I know to some people that's exactly what this looks like, but we've sort of got to contextualize this within the "What is MeFi for?" outline that we have. Not a huge deal, and often MeTa threads go better both if the people who start them aren't fighty but also if the people commenting don't pick on the OP regardless of how they come off.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:00 AM on October 26, 2011

We don't need to discuss everything collectively.

Absolutely. But when we end up doing so,how it plays out reflects on us.

proceed directly to the going-to-bed part

This tends to work really well for me.

This would work really well for me, too. I have a class, an hour on the desk, and two meetings left in my day. Can a mod give me a dispensation to just sleep through it all? I'll MeMail you my Chair's address....

OK, back to work...
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:04 AM on October 26, 2011

We don't need to discuss everything collectively.

Absolutely. But when we end up doing so,how it plays out reflects on us.

Agreed. Nonetheless (and despite the recent Hugs MeTa), these threads go poorly more often than not. We can hang our heads in shame and vow to do better (doing better is always a good policy), or we can take the more pragmatic route and have fewer of these threads.

Or both. Both would be great.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 8:11 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Please stop the heavy hand.

Yes, let's definitely start allowing posts that are links to search results.
posted by yerfatma at 8:15 AM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

Sometimes a bit of public castigation adds the missing frisson to the mere discomfiture of having your post deleted. They know they want it, they come here to get it, and we give it to 'em, the saucy devils.
posted by Abiezer at 8:16 AM on October 26, 2011

Metafilter: Saucy Devils
posted by lampshade at 8:41 AM on October 26, 2011

Can I get a recipe for devil sauce?
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:43 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

The use of tear gas may be a first for Occupy [wherever] protests, but it's sure not a first for OPD breaking up peaceful protests. There's an on-going federal lawsuit against OPD regarding its crowd control tactics. Someone interested in making a post that's not just OMG OWS PROTEST could probably have found this out pretty easily and made a more substantial post.

I will not be making that post because a friend of mine is an attorney involved in the suit and it would feel weird and maybe break guidelines. And I don't like making contentious political posts, though I'm fine participating in them.
posted by rtha at 8:59 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Can I get a recipe for devil sauce?

Use lots of lube, a firm grip and remember to cup his balls.

Thanks, I'll be here all week.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:30 AM on October 26, 2011 [2 favorites]

Can I get a recipe for devil sauce?

I think tear gas may be a component.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:25 AM on October 26, 2011

I'm trying to picture a shit parade. Floats with steaming piles and huge turds made out of flowers. Marching bands playing nothing but the brown note. Firetrucks with cheerleaders throwing toilet paper to the crowd. Outhouses and Porta potties pulled by monster trucks covered in shit colored mud. Shriners on motorized toilets. Some guy dressed up like a bottle of pink Bismuth with a plunger in hand leading everyone through town. I don't know for sure but it's probably already happened somewhere.
posted by Sailormom at 11:14 AM on October 26, 2011 [1 favorite]

Devil's Steak Sauce.
posted by Splunge at 11:18 AM on October 26, 2011

Another interesting aspect would be the contrast to Occupy L.A., which is supported by the mayor and City Council, and where there are reports of protesters and LAPD and protesters exchanging food and snacks and saying they love each other(!!)

OPD = LAPD 20 years ago?
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:29 AM on October 26, 2011

Pick up that can, citizen. I love you.
posted by penduluum at 11:56 AM on October 26, 2011

Ugh, please stop posting a MetaTalk every time a post gets deleted. There are real discussions to be had about moderation; anybody who reads Metatalk knows I'm way over on one end of the bell curve in terms of desiring looser moderation, but I have not posted a Metatalk about it because of the oversaturation. It's becoming a joke and we're going to lose the moderation battle discussion through sheer boredom over the many, many, many posts on the issue.
posted by Justinian at 12:01 PM on October 26, 2011

I'm trying to picture a shit parade. Floats with steaming piles and huge turds made out of flowers. Marching bands playing nothing but the brown note. Firetrucks with cheerleaders throwing toilet paper to the crowd. Outhouses and Porta potties pulled by monster trucks covered in shit colored mud. Shriners on motorized toilets. Some guy dressed up like a bottle of pink Bismuth with a plunger in hand leading everyone through town.

AND ELEPHANTS!!!!
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 12:01 PM on October 26, 2011

if you've ever been in a high school band positioned behind the horses, you've been in a shit parade - "remember, no stepping around the piles! don't break your march! we'll send everything to the cleaners afterwards."
posted by nadawi at 12:27 PM on October 26, 2011

My rule is—and I dare you to find an exception—if the poster is defending the post in the first comment the post is going to suck.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:52 PM on October 26, 2011 [3 favorites]

Is this where we start picking the date we get the quidnunc kid to take over modding for a day?
posted by infini at 1:00 PM on October 26, 2011

Oh and I think the first few comments are not how one would speak to the management of the service you are using.
posted by infini at 1:01 PM on October 26, 2011

Not a huge deal, and often MeTa threads go better both if the people who start them aren't fighty but also if the people commenting don't pick on the OP regardless of how they come off.

shuffles out shamefacedly and throws modem out the window
posted by infini at 1:03 PM on October 26, 2011

Nobody brought up raining on someone's shit parade? You people are slipping.

I've been waiting for taz to get her ritual hazing from the mob - I'm too lazy to check the data, but it seems that 2-3 weeks after being anointed, every mod has gone through a sudden spike of people complaining about their 'over-moderation'. To me, that means the additional resource is being effective - if nobody noticed the difference, you'd have to wonder if an extra person was even needed.
posted by dg at 3:32 PM on October 26, 2011

(occupy metatalk)?
posted by box at 4:36 PM on October 26, 2011

(occupy metatalk)?

heh...that has been going on for years.
posted by lampshade at 5:31 PM on October 26, 2011