Weekly World MeFi June 23, 2008 8:50 AM Subscribe
This is a crap post. Celebrity gossip, really?
*coughs*
posted by jonmc at 8:59 AM on June 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 8:59 AM on June 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
It went wrong for a completely interesting reason, because someone criticized her father's parenting skills.
posted by smackfu at 8:59 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by smackfu at 8:59 AM on June 23, 2008
There has been no mention of Winehouse's emphysema in respectable news outlets.
posted by Mister_A at 9:01 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by Mister_A at 9:01 AM on June 23, 2008
Given the topic, the post was actually decent. I don't care about Amy Winehouse but some people do and there wasn't anything deleteworthy about it. I removed, I think, one comment about her being a skanky ho which is just beyond the pale and fighty, but the discussion has been more interesting than I thought it would be. It's an okay post, not a great one, but it's fine.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:04 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:04 AM on June 23, 2008
There are plenty of posts I don't approve of. I show my hearty disapproval by not reading them. Feel free to do the same.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:05 AM on June 23, 2008 [11 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:05 AM on June 23, 2008 [11 favorites]
Mister_A: "There has been no mention of Winehouse's emphysema in respectable news outlets."
The Perez link makes me think this is sarcasm, but since I'm not sure: AP, AFP, Bloomberg, the Beeb, NYT, and that's just with one quick Google News search.
posted by Plutor at 9:06 AM on June 23, 2008
The Perez link makes me think this is sarcasm, but since I'm not sure: AP, AFP, Bloomberg, the Beeb, NYT, and that's just with one quick Google News search.
posted by Plutor at 9:06 AM on June 23, 2008
Her is Jessamyn and she approved that post.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:07 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:07 AM on June 23, 2008
Yeah they should have waited for the Jack Shafer editorial that goes into great detail about crack cocaine and pneumomediastinum.
posted by geoff. at 9:10 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by geoff. at 9:10 AM on June 23, 2008
Her NAME is jessamyn blah blah blah the rest.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:12 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:12 AM on June 23, 2008
The Perez link makes me think this is sarcasm, but since I'm not sure: AP, AFP, Bloomberg, the Beeb, NYT, and that's just with one quick Google News search.
The Sunday Mirror has the interview which is the source fo that coverage, and so that's where I linked to. It's by no means a broadsheet but it's pretty far from being the World Weekly News. I suspect signal is getting a bit confused as to what tabloid means in the UK vs US.
As for "celebrity gossip", well, despite predictable "your favourite artist sucks" crap this is one of the most notable UK artists of the last few years, who's pretty unique in many ways that go beyond epic dugs consumption. That she has a career and life threatening medical condition is actually pretty big news.
posted by Artw at 9:19 AM on June 23, 2008
The Sunday Mirror has the interview which is the source fo that coverage, and so that's where I linked to. It's by no means a broadsheet but it's pretty far from being the World Weekly News. I suspect signal is getting a bit confused as to what tabloid means in the UK vs US.
As for "celebrity gossip", well, despite predictable "your favourite artist sucks" crap this is one of the most notable UK artists of the last few years, who's pretty unique in many ways that go beyond epic dugs consumption. That she has a career and life threatening medical condition is actually pretty big news.
posted by Artw at 9:19 AM on June 23, 2008
Clear off! My darling Blake would kick your arse for this!
BLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
posted by miss lynnster at 9:20 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
BLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
posted by miss lynnster at 9:20 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
That's weird - all the tags have disapeared for that post - any idea what that's about?
posted by Artw at 9:23 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by Artw at 9:23 AM on June 23, 2008
And personally, I think she's newsworthy even if he life is a trainwreck. Difference being she has 99% more creative talent than most tabloid subjects. If this article was about Heidi Montag or something it would be far more offensive.
Unfortunately, Amy Winehouse is like our Janis Joplin or something.
posted by miss lynnster at 9:23 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, Amy Winehouse is like our Janis Joplin or something.
posted by miss lynnster at 9:23 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
There are plenty of posts I don't approve of. I show my hearty disapproval by not reading them.
If you could do the same for comments you don't like, you'd achieve total detached coolness. And yet.
posted by Wolfdog at 9:25 AM on June 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
If you could do the same for comments you don't like, you'd achieve total detached coolness. And yet.
posted by Wolfdog at 9:25 AM on June 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
Of all the cartoons that we loved and tolerated as children, none were more aggressively stupid than Chilly Willy.
Remember Tennesse Tuxedo? That penguin with the voice of Maxwell Smart, who along with his walrus pal Chumley raised extremely minor havoc in the City zoo where he lived laughed and loved?
Whatever became of him? I'm thinking he's in an ice show of some sort.
posted by jonmc at 9:28 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Remember Tennesse Tuxedo? That penguin with the voice of Maxwell Smart, who along with his walrus pal Chumley raised extremely minor havoc in the City zoo where he lived laughed and loved?
Whatever became of him? I'm thinking he's in an ice show of some sort.
posted by jonmc at 9:28 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
all the tags have disapeared for that post - any idea what that's about?
I deleted the post when I woke up and saw it -- I think it's a pretty lame celeb news post myself but I did see there was 80 comments and some fairly intelligent back and forth on it, and seeing jessamyn here saying it was meh and not great but not delete worthy made me rethink it and bring it back. We automatically chop tags off when stuff gets deleted to keep related tag searches working fast and easy, and when I brought it back it had none. I just added a few.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:28 AM on June 23, 2008
I deleted the post when I woke up and saw it -- I think it's a pretty lame celeb news post myself but I did see there was 80 comments and some fairly intelligent back and forth on it, and seeing jessamyn here saying it was meh and not great but not delete worthy made me rethink it and bring it back. We automatically chop tags off when stuff gets deleted to keep related tag searches working fast and easy, and when I brought it back it had none. I just added a few.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:28 AM on June 23, 2008
Amy Winehouse is like our Janis Joplin or something.
What you mean 'our,' Kemosabe?
posted by jonmc at 9:29 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
What you mean 'our,' Kemosabe?
posted by jonmc at 9:29 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
If you could do the same for comments you don't like, you'd achieve total detached coolness. And yet.
Almost there! Oops. One step forward, two steps back :-(
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:29 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Almost there! Oops. One step forward, two steps back :-(
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:29 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Speak for yourself. I, sir, am a rhombus.
posted by jonmc at 9:32 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 9:32 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Dude was A FUCKING PENGUIN, and we were supposed to believe that he wasn't accustomed to cold temperatures?!
A common misconception. Galapagos penguins live on the equator year round.
posted by tkolar at 9:32 AM on June 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
A common misconception. Galapagos penguins live on the equator year round.
posted by tkolar at 9:32 AM on June 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
Fair enough, I'll not bother with UK music news in future then.
posted by Artw at 9:33 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by Artw at 9:33 AM on June 23, 2008
What was up with the spate of cutesy car-themed Saturday morning cartoons of the early to mid-seventies? Wacky Races, The Perils of Penelope Pit-stop, Speed Buggy–it's like we as a culture were obsessed with automobiles.
posted by Mister_A at 9:35 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by Mister_A at 9:35 AM on June 23, 2008
I was a little disappointed when I saw it. We've slid down the slippery slope a little bit more.
posted by Dave Faris at 9:38 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by Dave Faris at 9:38 AM on June 23, 2008
And then there was M*U*S*H, that cartoon version of M*A*S*H populated by dogs up at the arctic circle. I only ever saw it once, so for a while I assumed it was merely the fever dream of an addled brain, but, noooo, it was real...
posted by jonmc at 9:42 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by jonmc at 9:42 AM on June 23, 2008
Please cleanse Metafilter of all celebrities
*looks darkly at asavage*
*glances over at cstross, shrugs*
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 9:44 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
*looks darkly at asavage*
*glances over at cstross, shrugs*
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 9:44 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Well, disappointing David Faris certainly makes me feel a little better about things.
posted by Artw at 9:47 AM on June 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:47 AM on June 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
You know what didn't stand up well over the years? Captain Caveman.
posted by Mister_A at 9:47 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by Mister_A at 9:47 AM on June 23, 2008
Tennessee Tuxedo was usually only broadcast on Channel 11 during rain delays in Yankee games. At night they put in old clips of the Three Stooges. Once I was in Manitoba's bar and they had the game on with the sound off and closed captioning running. When it was rained out, the Stooges came on complete with captioning.
It's very strange to read 'nyuk-nyuk' 'Soitanly!' 'you numbskull [slap]' scrolling across a screen (so we don't miss any subtle nuances, natch). I can only imagine that it must've been fun to type.
posted by jonmc at 9:50 AM on June 23, 2008
It's very strange to read 'nyuk-nyuk' 'Soitanly!' 'you numbskull [slap]' scrolling across a screen (so we don't miss any subtle nuances, natch). I can only imagine that it must've been fun to type.
posted by jonmc at 9:50 AM on June 23, 2008
Eh, I didn't like Captain Caveman. I was more of a Meatballs and Spaghetti man.
posted by dirtdirt at 9:51 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by dirtdirt at 9:51 AM on June 23, 2008
Plutor: always nice to meet a fan.
It's still a crap post IMO, though, even with our favorite librarian mod's Nihil Obstat.
Oh well, half a deletion is better than none.
posted by signal at 9:51 AM on June 23, 2008
It's still a crap post IMO, though, even with our favorite librarian mod's Nihil Obstat.
Oh well, half a deletion is better than none.
posted by signal at 9:51 AM on June 23, 2008
No no no
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:56 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:56 AM on June 23, 2008
Remember when Brandon Blatcher was all "Her is jessamyn! Unga bunga!?"
That was awesome.
posted by Mister_A at 9:59 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
That was awesome.
posted by Mister_A at 9:59 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
I generally agree with every pearl of wisdom from the lovely miss TPS, so it pains me to say I sorta disagree here: I show my hearty disapproval by not reading them. Feel free to do the same.
OK, I do totally agree with this statement when it comes to genres of posts. When people say they don't want news, obits, sports, or celebs - well I totally agree, just skip those posts, it's ridiculous to blacklist entire genres or topics of posts. So if signal was complaining about this post solely because it involves a celebrity, I would agree.
But what if it's not the "genre" of post that's at issue but the actual quality of a specific post? I've been thinking about this often lately because it seems there have been a fair amount of farkfilter type posts on mefi and I wondered how we are now to deal with them since lately it seems taboo to raise post quality issues in Metatalk?
With the flagging system, it's all just about "flag it and move on." Fine solution if it breaks guidelines or is offensive. But what about to do about an onslaught of just plain mediocre or kinda crappy posts? Do we just passively wait for mods to make a decision? One of the things I've always liked is the way that members have helped to steer and shape the site, and I hope we haven't lost that altogether. Where and how is the mechanism for discussions about raising the bar on posts if not in Metatalk?
The power of Metatalk used to be awesome. It used to be more than a place to post about meetups, spammers, and AskMe deletions. It was where we hashed out policy and quality issues. I really labored over post selection and quality because I never wanted to be hauled into Metatalk before a tribunal of the graybeards to be chastised for a weak post, and I know I was not alone in this. But now it seems frowned on to raise quality issues - there's a "big tent" feel, that if you don't like it, just flag, keep quiet, and wait for the mods.
I don't agree with that. As a community, I think we all have a responsibility to uphold the quest for quality - it shouldn't just be about leaving things for a mod to make a decision.
Dave Faris is sort of our resident curmudgeon so I get it that people like to poke sticks at him. But I will say this: his excesses are almost universally in the quest for quality, so I gotta love me some Dave Faris. Questioning the status quo is a good thing.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:00 AM on June 23, 2008 [16 favorites]
OK, I do totally agree with this statement when it comes to genres of posts. When people say they don't want news, obits, sports, or celebs - well I totally agree, just skip those posts, it's ridiculous to blacklist entire genres or topics of posts. So if signal was complaining about this post solely because it involves a celebrity, I would agree.
But what if it's not the "genre" of post that's at issue but the actual quality of a specific post? I've been thinking about this often lately because it seems there have been a fair amount of farkfilter type posts on mefi and I wondered how we are now to deal with them since lately it seems taboo to raise post quality issues in Metatalk?
With the flagging system, it's all just about "flag it and move on." Fine solution if it breaks guidelines or is offensive. But what about to do about an onslaught of just plain mediocre or kinda crappy posts? Do we just passively wait for mods to make a decision? One of the things I've always liked is the way that members have helped to steer and shape the site, and I hope we haven't lost that altogether. Where and how is the mechanism for discussions about raising the bar on posts if not in Metatalk?
The power of Metatalk used to be awesome. It used to be more than a place to post about meetups, spammers, and AskMe deletions. It was where we hashed out policy and quality issues. I really labored over post selection and quality because I never wanted to be hauled into Metatalk before a tribunal of the graybeards to be chastised for a weak post, and I know I was not alone in this. But now it seems frowned on to raise quality issues - there's a "big tent" feel, that if you don't like it, just flag, keep quiet, and wait for the mods.
I don't agree with that. As a community, I think we all have a responsibility to uphold the quest for quality - it shouldn't just be about leaving things for a mod to make a decision.
Dave Faris is sort of our resident curmudgeon so I get it that people like to poke sticks at him. But I will say this: his excesses are almost universally in the quest for quality, so I gotta love me some Dave Faris. Questioning the status quo is a good thing.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:00 AM on June 23, 2008 [16 favorites]
This is the opposite of eponysterical.
Wait, what IS the opposite of eponysterical?
posted by dw at 10:02 AM on June 23, 2008
Wait, what IS the opposite of eponysterical?
posted by dw at 10:02 AM on June 23, 2008
you know, if the fusion of rap and heavy metal/hardcore had stopped with this, this, this and this, it might not seem like such a bad idea.
posted by jonmc at 10:03 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by jonmc at 10:03 AM on June 23, 2008
I brought my toboggan, where is this slippery-slope everyone is talking about?
posted by quin at 10:05 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by quin at 10:05 AM on June 23, 2008
So if signal was complaining about this post solely because it involves a celebrity, I would agree.
And he was. The amazing thing about celebrity gossip on metafilter is how it brings all the haters to the yard. They claim that their new filter post about a new apple laptop is somehow better than yours and somehow brings all the apple fan boys to the yard but, I'm sorry, your post ain't better than ours.
Artw's post was constructed as well as the vast majority of posts on metafilter are. To argue over execution is one thing but to argue over its substance (and only because it is a post about a celebrity) is something entirely different. Metafilter, in fact, loves posting about celebrities but only celebrities that fit a certain mold - once you bring pop culture into it, many metafilter members get shocked that they are even in its presence. So Steve Jobs is a different celebrity that Amy Winehouse? Or Adam Savage? If you honestly believe that, I hope your little fantasy land lets your have ponies, lollipops, and a ferris wheel made entirely out of chocolate.
posted by Stynxno at 10:08 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
And he was. The amazing thing about celebrity gossip on metafilter is how it brings all the haters to the yard. They claim that their new filter post about a new apple laptop is somehow better than yours and somehow brings all the apple fan boys to the yard but, I'm sorry, your post ain't better than ours.
Artw's post was constructed as well as the vast majority of posts on metafilter are. To argue over execution is one thing but to argue over its substance (and only because it is a post about a celebrity) is something entirely different. Metafilter, in fact, loves posting about celebrities but only celebrities that fit a certain mold - once you bring pop culture into it, many metafilter members get shocked that they are even in its presence. So Steve Jobs is a different celebrity that Amy Winehouse? Or Adam Savage? If you honestly believe that, I hope your little fantasy land lets your have ponies, lollipops, and a ferris wheel made entirely out of chocolate.
posted by Stynxno at 10:08 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
I doubt you will find a better online index of Reginald Maudling's constituency correspondence than this.
posted by Mister_A at 10:10 AM on June 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by Mister_A at 10:10 AM on June 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
It is funny, I took a break from MeFi for most of the primary season because there is just so much blogging I can read and was doing it elsewhere at the time....
I pop in and voila', same old arguments.
heh
posted by edgeways at 10:18 AM on June 23, 2008
I pop in and voila', same old arguments.
heh
posted by edgeways at 10:18 AM on June 23, 2008
I wondered how we are now to deal with them since lately it seems taboo to raise post quality issues in Metatalk?
And, see, that's interesting to me because my feeling is more that it's no so much taboo, but that there are a few mitigating factors there:
1. Such posts tend to be bumpy by default, in terms of heated or argumentative reactions to a "this post sucks" callout. Which is in principle fine, but I think sometimes they get nastier when there's a perceived (acknowledged or otherwise) personal angle to the callout (complainant had something similar deleted, or has had a row with poster, or had comments deleted, etc). They have sometimes gotten enough out of hand from thread nastiness that we've closed the threads to cut that shit off.
2. Sometimes people do a really bad job or presenting the complaint, to the point where it can poison the thread from the get-go and turn into some sort of pile-on or melee over the quality of the callout itself. Sometimes there's good discussion that comes out the meta-discussion there, but sometimes, again, it descends into nasty personal infighting and hence potential closure.
3. Some of these posts just plain jump the gun—starting a metatalk thread at three in the morning about something posted at midnight (though vacapinta has been helpful making this sort of thing less likely, god bless him), or starting a metatalk thread like a half-hour after the post first went up even during normal daylight hours. We'll often close those up tight when we get to them, because it's not really a "why was this horrible post not deleted" issue so much as just not waiting a reasonable time to let us do our jobs and as soon as we actually see it the point is moot if it really is a clearcut case for deletion.
I'm looking at all of those as exceptions to the general rule that, hey, yeah, make a metatalk post. That's what it's here for. But my view from this side of the aisle may be significantly different from how it looks as the potential metatalk poster; like I say, it's interesting to see how people feel about it.
Do you have the sense that it's taboo administratively, or more that it's taboo in terms of general community sentiment, or what?
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:21 AM on June 23, 2008
And, see, that's interesting to me because my feeling is more that it's no so much taboo, but that there are a few mitigating factors there:
1. Such posts tend to be bumpy by default, in terms of heated or argumentative reactions to a "this post sucks" callout. Which is in principle fine, but I think sometimes they get nastier when there's a perceived (acknowledged or otherwise) personal angle to the callout (complainant had something similar deleted, or has had a row with poster, or had comments deleted, etc). They have sometimes gotten enough out of hand from thread nastiness that we've closed the threads to cut that shit off.
2. Sometimes people do a really bad job or presenting the complaint, to the point where it can poison the thread from the get-go and turn into some sort of pile-on or melee over the quality of the callout itself. Sometimes there's good discussion that comes out the meta-discussion there, but sometimes, again, it descends into nasty personal infighting and hence potential closure.
3. Some of these posts just plain jump the gun—starting a metatalk thread at three in the morning about something posted at midnight (though vacapinta has been helpful making this sort of thing less likely, god bless him), or starting a metatalk thread like a half-hour after the post first went up even during normal daylight hours. We'll often close those up tight when we get to them, because it's not really a "why was this horrible post not deleted" issue so much as just not waiting a reasonable time to let us do our jobs and as soon as we actually see it the point is moot if it really is a clearcut case for deletion.
I'm looking at all of those as exceptions to the general rule that, hey, yeah, make a metatalk post. That's what it's here for. But my view from this side of the aisle may be significantly different from how it looks as the potential metatalk poster; like I say, it's interesting to see how people feel about it.
Do you have the sense that it's taboo administratively, or more that it's taboo in terms of general community sentiment, or what?
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:21 AM on June 23, 2008
The amazing thing about celebrity gossip on metafilter is how it brings all the haters to the yard. They claim that their new filter post about a new apple laptop is somehow better than yours and somehow brings all the apple fan boys to the yard but, I'm sorry, your post ain't better than ours.
Well, to be fair, you could pretty reasonably rewrite that as so:
The amazing thing about [posts about topic foo] on metafilter is how it brings all the [people who dislike posts about foo] to the yard. They claim that their new filter post about [baz, a topic they care about] is somehow better than yours and somehow brings all the [people who like posts about baz] to the yard but, I'm sorry, [people have varied tastes and tend to disagree about these things].
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:24 AM on June 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
Well, to be fair, you could pretty reasonably rewrite that as so:
The amazing thing about [posts about topic foo] on metafilter is how it brings all the [people who dislike posts about foo] to the yard. They claim that their new filter post about [baz, a topic they care about] is somehow better than yours and somehow brings all the [people who like posts about baz] to the yard but, I'm sorry, [people have varied tastes and tend to disagree about these things].
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:24 AM on June 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
Any person raising any issue on Metatalk about anything pertaining to post quality has to be prepared to withstand a shower of insults. The metatalk peanut gallery is as forgiving as a howitzer with a hair trigger.
posted by Dave Faris at 10:25 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Dave Faris at 10:25 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
In Metatalk, it's personal.
posted by Dave Faris at 10:31 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Dave Faris at 10:31 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'd explain my previous templatization at greater length, but I would have to charge.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:32 AM on June 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:32 AM on June 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
Damn right. It's better than Fark's.
posted by Mister_A at 10:38 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Mister_A at 10:38 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
So if signal was complaining about this post solely because it involves a celebrity, I would agree. ... And he was.
Nope, I'm complaining about a post about celebrity gossip. It's right there, in words #6 & 7 of my post.
So Steve Jobs is a different celebrity that Amy Winehouse? Or Adam Savage?
I, for one, never said so. Sure there's a lot of crap posts on MeFi. You can't expect me to make a MeTa post about each and every one. Won't stop me from occasionally bringing it to MeTa, though.
posted by signal at 10:44 AM on June 23, 2008
Nope, I'm complaining about a post about celebrity gossip. It's right there, in words #6 & 7 of my post.
So Steve Jobs is a different celebrity that Amy Winehouse? Or Adam Savage?
I, for one, never said so. Sure there's a lot of crap posts on MeFi. You can't expect me to make a MeTa post about each and every one. Won't stop me from occasionally bringing it to MeTa, though.
posted by signal at 10:44 AM on June 23, 2008
--she could be in a wheelchair within a MONTH if she doesn't stop smoking crack cocaine, her dad revealed last night.--
--The doctors have said that medically there isn't any reason why she can't do Glastonbury.--
That's, to me, why it's a crap post: it's hearsay, overwrought and obviously ambiguous and therefore either unbelievable or manipulative or both. I'm not saying that I strongly believe it should be deleted (I wouldn't cry about it) but that, as MJJ put it, it represents some low hanging fruit and is not anything like a good quality post, wikipedia links and stynxo's vote of approval notwithstanding.
posted by peacay at 10:45 AM on June 23, 2008
--The doctors have said that medically there isn't any reason why she can't do Glastonbury.--
That's, to me, why it's a crap post: it's hearsay, overwrought and obviously ambiguous and therefore either unbelievable or manipulative or both. I'm not saying that I strongly believe it should be deleted (I wouldn't cry about it) but that, as MJJ put it, it represents some low hanging fruit and is not anything like a good quality post, wikipedia links and stynxo's vote of approval notwithstanding.
posted by peacay at 10:45 AM on June 23, 2008
Our own Adam Savage has emphysema!??!!? Yep, that would be a very different celebrity fpp & Meta.
Amy's self-destructive story makes her a current icon a la Billie Holliday or Lauryn Hill or Janis Joplin... no matter what kind of music you choose to listen to, whether it makes you feel superior to declare her as garbage you don't care about, or whether she's a member of Metafilter. Having won FIVE GRAMMYS this year, she IS a part of newsworthy pop culture, and she's a real human being with REAL and very tragic problems.
It's like people who thought it was funny to watch Anna Nicole Smith slurring around and called her garbage. People made money off of that. And there's a little baby who's growing up without a mother now. Which I don't find entertaining. Or when Britney implodes... I don't find it funny either. It all just makes me sick to my stomach how society feeds on these people as they slowly kill themselves. People who think human tragedy is unimportant, is only for entertainment, or think it's fun to be flippant to make themselves sound superior come across as assholes to me.
Somehow, our society no longer feels it's important to have compassion for people they don't know... ESPECIALLY if they feel that the person in question has more money or fame than the average citizen. It's kind of like, "They're rich! Serves them right! They can burn in hell! They have no right to complain! I hope they die! I don't think they have talent anyhow!"
I find that incredibly sad. We have forgotten our own humanity. Not sure how that makes anyone superior, really.
YMMV. That's my take though.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:46 AM on June 23, 2008 [8 favorites]
Amy's self-destructive story makes her a current icon a la Billie Holliday or Lauryn Hill or Janis Joplin... no matter what kind of music you choose to listen to, whether it makes you feel superior to declare her as garbage you don't care about, or whether she's a member of Metafilter. Having won FIVE GRAMMYS this year, she IS a part of newsworthy pop culture, and she's a real human being with REAL and very tragic problems.
It's like people who thought it was funny to watch Anna Nicole Smith slurring around and called her garbage. People made money off of that. And there's a little baby who's growing up without a mother now. Which I don't find entertaining. Or when Britney implodes... I don't find it funny either. It all just makes me sick to my stomach how society feeds on these people as they slowly kill themselves. People who think human tragedy is unimportant, is only for entertainment, or think it's fun to be flippant to make themselves sound superior come across as assholes to me.
Somehow, our society no longer feels it's important to have compassion for people they don't know... ESPECIALLY if they feel that the person in question has more money or fame than the average citizen. It's kind of like, "They're rich! Serves them right! They can burn in hell! They have no right to complain! I hope they die! I don't think they have talent anyhow!"
I find that incredibly sad. We have forgotten our own humanity. Not sure how that makes anyone superior, really.
YMMV. That's my take though.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:46 AM on June 23, 2008 [8 favorites]
back in 1994, I wnet to a party where a lot of people, guys and girls, jumped into the pool in their underwear. I spent a while coversing with this really hot girl who was wearing a very wet black bra & panties set. But I didn't jump into the pool because I was wearing tighty-whities rather than boxers. Looking back, i should've taken the plunge.
posted by jonmc at 10:48 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by jonmc at 10:48 AM on June 23, 2008
Both Concrete Blonde's 'Bloodletting' and Black 47's 'James Connolly' were played to good response that night, if that helps set up the atmosphere any.
posted by jonmc at 10:51 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by jonmc at 10:51 AM on June 23, 2008
cortex, I meant that it is taboo due to recent community sentiment. Or what Dave Faris just said.
I certainly appreciate the points you raised - people are sometimes either too personal or too ham-fisted about critiquing posts based on qualitative matters and then things don't go all that well.
Stynxno, you are probably right about a bias against pop culture stars, and I agree they are as worthy a topic as anything else. I can't speak to signal's motive and I think he could have done a better job explaining his objections, but as for my own part, I don't think it is a particularly good post. (Sorry Artw!) Not because it's Amy - I'd just as soon read about her as about Jobs - but because its hard to transform current events into good posts. Understand, my concern is less about this particular post and more about the idea that we should be able to discuss quality in Metatalk and that it is our collective responsibility as members to try to raise the bar.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:52 AM on June 23, 2008
I certainly appreciate the points you raised - people are sometimes either too personal or too ham-fisted about critiquing posts based on qualitative matters and then things don't go all that well.
Stynxno, you are probably right about a bias against pop culture stars, and I agree they are as worthy a topic as anything else. I can't speak to signal's motive and I think he could have done a better job explaining his objections, but as for my own part, I don't think it is a particularly good post. (Sorry Artw!) Not because it's Amy - I'd just as soon read about her as about Jobs - but because its hard to transform current events into good posts. Understand, my concern is less about this particular post and more about the idea that we should be able to discuss quality in Metatalk and that it is our collective responsibility as members to try to raise the bar.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:52 AM on June 23, 2008
fyi, in your alternate timeline, you drown. you did the right thing
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 10:54 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 10:54 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Sorry Artw, but I gotta say that it should be deleted because:
* It is speculation, which is a criterion used by mathowie for deletion of other posts
* It is celebrity filter, which is not usually a good subject for best-of-the-web material
* The post is perfect (unintentionally, granted) for giving Metafilter's parasites the opportunity to beat up on someone with a drug addiction, which is not a good thing
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:55 AM on June 23, 2008
* It is speculation, which is a criterion used by mathowie for deletion of other posts
* It is celebrity filter, which is not usually a good subject for best-of-the-web material
* The post is perfect (unintentionally, granted) for giving Metafilter's parasites the opportunity to beat up on someone with a drug addiction, which is not a good thing
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:55 AM on June 23, 2008
fyi, in your alternate timeline, you drown.
perhaps, but do I get laid beforehand?
posted by jonmc at 10:55 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
perhaps, but do I get laid beforehand?
posted by jonmc at 10:55 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
fyi, in your alternate timeline, you drown. you did the right thing - stupidsexyflanders
perhaps, but do I get laid beforehand? - jonmc
NO, because of your dopey parallel-universe beard. I think it would be easier to say "un-iverse" (unnaverse) or anti-verse, instead of "parallel universe", but my hands are tied on the matter.
posted by Mister_A at 11:01 AM on June 23, 2008
perhaps, but do I get laid beforehand? - jonmc
NO, because of your dopey parallel-universe beard. I think it would be easier to say "un-iverse" (unnaverse) or anti-verse, instead of "parallel universe", but my hands are tied on the matter.
posted by Mister_A at 11:01 AM on June 23, 2008
NO, because of your dopey parallel-universe beard.
I have a beard in this universe sir. Although, I didn't back then. I grew one soon after because, well, it was the 90's. The girl in question considered herself a photographer and I later heard her say that she wanted to take a picture of me with my shirt off, which means she was either attracted to me or wanted to fake some kind of concentration camp scenario.
posted by jonmc at 11:03 AM on June 23, 2008
I have a beard in this universe sir. Although, I didn't back then. I grew one soon after because, well, it was the 90's. The girl in question considered herself a photographer and I later heard her say that she wanted to take a picture of me with my shirt off, which means she was either attracted to me or wanted to fake some kind of concentration camp scenario.
posted by jonmc at 11:03 AM on June 23, 2008
I used to DJ in a strip club and one of the dancers regularly chose 'Bloodletting' for her sets. It worked surprisingly well in that capacity.
posted by quin at 11:03 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by quin at 11:03 AM on June 23, 2008
So is anti-verse jonmc clean-shaven? Maybe he has dreadlocks! Cool!
WAIT WHAT IF THIS IS THE ANTI-VERSE???!??!?
AND WE ARE THE EVIL TWINS?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?
MY GOD THERE ARE STARS!!
posted by Mister_A at 11:07 AM on June 23, 2008
WAIT WHAT IF THIS IS THE ANTI-VERSE???!??!?
AND WE ARE THE EVIL TWINS?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?
MY GOD THERE ARE STARS!!
posted by Mister_A at 11:07 AM on June 23, 2008
So is anti-verse jonmc clean-shaven? Maybe he has dreadlocks!
No. Not in any universe. And I like my facial hair, sir. and the ladies, generally, agree with me.
posted by jonmc at 11:09 AM on June 23, 2008
No. Not in any universe. And I like my facial hair, sir. and the ladies, generally, agree with me.
posted by jonmc at 11:09 AM on June 23, 2008
In Anti-verse Communist Russia, the evil twin is you!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:09 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:09 AM on June 23, 2008
anonymorose?
posted by stubby phillips at 11:11 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by stubby phillips at 11:11 AM on June 23, 2008
Dear ______ (username),
Your post on _______ (plural noun) was ______ (adjective) and makes it clear that you have a ______ (adjective) ______ (body part). Your continuing obsession with the ______ (expletive) ______ (adverb) ______ (adjective) world of ______ (person) sickens and disgusts me. MetaFilter is a website only for ______ (adjective) people, and the continued appearance of ______ (plural noun) like yourself is hardly ______ (adjective). If you think that ______ (noun) is best of the web, your brain has clearly ______ (past-tense verb) too much ______ (chemical name).
Your fan,
______ (your name)
posted by Plutor at 11:13 AM on June 23, 2008 [15 favorites]
Your post on _______ (plural noun) was ______ (adjective) and makes it clear that you have a ______ (adjective) ______ (body part). Your continuing obsession with the ______ (expletive) ______ (adverb) ______ (adjective) world of ______ (person) sickens and disgusts me. MetaFilter is a website only for ______ (adjective) people, and the continued appearance of ______ (plural noun) like yourself is hardly ______ (adjective). If you think that ______ (noun) is best of the web, your brain has clearly ______ (past-tense verb) too much ______ (chemical name).
Your fan,
______ (your name)
posted by Plutor at 11:13 AM on June 23, 2008 [15 favorites]
*pages jahmc*
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:15 AM on June 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:15 AM on June 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
he no poppy show, cortex.
posted by jonmc at 11:16 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 11:16 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
"Unfortunately, Amy Winehouse is like our Janis Joplin or something."
I agree. It is unfortunate that Amy Winehouse is like our something.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:17 AM on June 23, 2008
I agree. It is unfortunate that Amy Winehouse is like our something.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:17 AM on June 23, 2008
also, one of the guys who stripped to his boxers and swum at that party had visible thatches of back hair. If he showed some skin, I shoulda manned up and done likewise.
posted by jonmc at 11:19 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by jonmc at 11:19 AM on June 23, 2008
Apparently jon and I attended the same parties, just 2000 miles apart.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:23 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:23 AM on June 23, 2008
I say... yes, yes, yes
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:26 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:26 AM on June 23, 2008
I'm working on a theory that Jon did swim with the girl, he did drown, and the anti-jon used some sort of wormhole to replaced him in our universe, but in the process he sucked in a few other aspects of the anti-universe, and so, with apologies to Patton Oswalt, Arnold Schwarzenegger runs California, torture is legal, and spinach is poison.
posted by Dave Faris at 11:30 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Dave Faris at 11:30 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
And there's a little baby who's growing up without a mother now. Which I don't find entertaining.
Don't worry. You will when the kid inevitably gets her own reality show. Which she will.
posted by tkchrist at 11:30 AM on June 23, 2008
Don't worry. You will when the kid inevitably gets her own reality show. Which she will.
posted by tkchrist at 11:30 AM on June 23, 2008
It's a sure sign the thread is over when it becomes about jonmc, which most threads inevitably do.
It's always just a question if it's going to end with the hot girl or hot guy that just that one time way back when hit on him.
Good job sir.
posted by Dennis Murphy at 11:31 AM on June 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
It's always just a question if it's going to end with the hot girl or hot guy that just that one time way back when hit on him.
Good job sir.
posted by Dennis Murphy at 11:31 AM on June 23, 2008 [4 favorites]
This one's a mercy killing, Dennis Murphy.
posted by jonmc at 11:32 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 11:32 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
I hope your little fantasy land lets your have ponies, lollipops, and a ferris wheel made entirely out of chocolate.
Dude, it's my fantasy land; I can have whatever I want.
posted by ssg at 11:34 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Dude, it's my fantasy land; I can have whatever I want.
posted by ssg at 11:34 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
I don't know if I can possibly favorite madamejujujive's comment enough. That it was made by someone who is easily in the top five best mefi posters of all time, if not the top 1, would hopefully make people take closer note. Here's hopin'.
To chime in regarding cortex's response, and bearing the caveat that I speak only for myself and no one else, here's how I see it:
1. Such posts tend to be bumpy by default, in terms of heated or argumentative reactions to a "this post sucks" callout. Which is in principle fine, but I think sometimes they get nastier when there's a perceived (acknowledged or otherwise) personal angle to the callout (complainant had something similar deleted, or has had a row with poster, or had comments deleted, etc). They have sometimes gotten enough out of hand from thread nastiness that we've closed the threads to cut that shit off.
I don't know that there's anything that can be done about personal animosity around here. Closing steaming shitstorms is to be expected, I think, but said shitstorms also exist as outlier phenomena rather than an indication of a trend. They exist, certainly, but it seems to me that they're the result of an unavoidable characteristic of groups this close-knit. I'm not sure I see them as contributing to the perception that callouts are unwelcome nowadays. At least, not nearly as much as the "flag it and move on" pereni-snark.
I think the same is essentially true of cortex's other mitigating factors. hence the following:
I'm looking at all of those as exceptions to the general rule that, hey, yeah, make a metatalk post. That's what it's here for. But my view from this side of the aisle may be significantly different from how it looks as the potential metatalk poster; like I say, it's interesting to see how people feel about it.
for what it's worth, I see a definite trend away from using metatalk precisely as you've described. I don't personally see it as coming from an administrative taboo, so much as it's the result of a growing userbase coupled with a sort of unintentional administrative inaction. Here's what I mean. When a userbase grows to the numbers mefi has, I think it's plainly clear that the demographic of said userbase is necessarily going to become more diverse and less homogeneous. What's a little less clear is what the result is and why. It seems to me that the result is that what would be considered a Lowest Common Denominator shifts significantly. If you have a dozen like-minded academics in a room talking, the LCD could easily be something esoterically academic. If you have a thousand people from all over the place in a room talking, the LCD is far likelier to be dick jokes. (note: I love dick jokes. this is not a condemnation of dick jokes.) put another way, it used to be that you could point out the difference between mefi and fark pretty easily, if for no other reason than because fark posted bullshit one-off news of the weird type stuff (and boobies links) all the time where metafilter did so far more rarely. Now, we certainly haven't declined so far that we strongly resemble fark, but the gap between us is slimmer these days.
So what happens is we have these metatalk posts. Once upon a time, before the flag system, it was clear why the callouts were here and that they belonged here. Now, with the massive userbase, we have this notion that because the LCD has shifted it's elitist to demand the quality we used to hope for in our fpps. It resembles the willful ignorance of american politics in a way that's disheartening. Partly, I believe that this is because we have a lot of mefites around who deserve their voice in metatalk just like everybody else, but who frankly have no idea what metatalk is for. So they say things like "flag it and move on" because they believe that their valuable contribution to the discussion is to tell someone that they don't deserve to talk, and they believe that metatalk is here for bug reports and meetups. That they are wrong on both counts seems obvious to me, but dicussing that is difficult. Metatalk has a purpose. It is not whatever the community decides it is. It is what it was designed to be. There should be some authority which can be turned to to say "no. flags did not eliminate the need for callouts. no, you should not come in here to tell people they can't discuss post quality." instead we have discussions like so:
callout: this post? really?
comment: flag it and move on.
OP (or like minded user): no, this is what metatalk is for. if you have nothing to contribute, then go away.
commenter: fuck that. metatalk isn't so you can whine about every post you don't like.
there is no resolution to this disagreement, because there doesn't seem to be any authoritative source we can turn to that will say "THIS IS METATALK'S PURPOSE: FOO. ALL BAZ SUPPORTERS FIND SOME WAY TO WORK WITHIN THE FOO SYSTEM." If there's a point where an admin said "flags did not spell the death knell of the callout system." OR "flags spelled the death knell of the callout system." then I can't find it. I doubt it exists, but hey I suppose it's possible. More importantly, if someone said it then it clearly hasn't sunk in and nobody's found it important enough to repeat, which is unfortunate.
So I see it as partly the natural result of a growing userbase, but it seems to have been inadvertently allowed to happen because no one ever resolves these disputes about what metatalk is for. Do we discuss post quality here or not, since (as madamejujujive so perfectly pointed out) there is no flag for "this is a shit post even though it's not offensive?" If someone says "flag it and move on" and gets the customary 18+ favorites from the snark brigade, is that the appropriate response or do the admins feel differently? I like to think you guys see callouts as a part of metatalk's functionality, but I'll be damned if I can see why you don't make that more clear if I'm right about that.
posted by shmegegge at 11:35 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
To chime in regarding cortex's response, and bearing the caveat that I speak only for myself and no one else, here's how I see it:
1. Such posts tend to be bumpy by default, in terms of heated or argumentative reactions to a "this post sucks" callout. Which is in principle fine, but I think sometimes they get nastier when there's a perceived (acknowledged or otherwise) personal angle to the callout (complainant had something similar deleted, or has had a row with poster, or had comments deleted, etc). They have sometimes gotten enough out of hand from thread nastiness that we've closed the threads to cut that shit off.
I don't know that there's anything that can be done about personal animosity around here. Closing steaming shitstorms is to be expected, I think, but said shitstorms also exist as outlier phenomena rather than an indication of a trend. They exist, certainly, but it seems to me that they're the result of an unavoidable characteristic of groups this close-knit. I'm not sure I see them as contributing to the perception that callouts are unwelcome nowadays. At least, not nearly as much as the "flag it and move on" pereni-snark.
I think the same is essentially true of cortex's other mitigating factors. hence the following:
I'm looking at all of those as exceptions to the general rule that, hey, yeah, make a metatalk post. That's what it's here for. But my view from this side of the aisle may be significantly different from how it looks as the potential metatalk poster; like I say, it's interesting to see how people feel about it.
for what it's worth, I see a definite trend away from using metatalk precisely as you've described. I don't personally see it as coming from an administrative taboo, so much as it's the result of a growing userbase coupled with a sort of unintentional administrative inaction. Here's what I mean. When a userbase grows to the numbers mefi has, I think it's plainly clear that the demographic of said userbase is necessarily going to become more diverse and less homogeneous. What's a little less clear is what the result is and why. It seems to me that the result is that what would be considered a Lowest Common Denominator shifts significantly. If you have a dozen like-minded academics in a room talking, the LCD could easily be something esoterically academic. If you have a thousand people from all over the place in a room talking, the LCD is far likelier to be dick jokes. (note: I love dick jokes. this is not a condemnation of dick jokes.) put another way, it used to be that you could point out the difference between mefi and fark pretty easily, if for no other reason than because fark posted bullshit one-off news of the weird type stuff (and boobies links) all the time where metafilter did so far more rarely. Now, we certainly haven't declined so far that we strongly resemble fark, but the gap between us is slimmer these days.
So what happens is we have these metatalk posts. Once upon a time, before the flag system, it was clear why the callouts were here and that they belonged here. Now, with the massive userbase, we have this notion that because the LCD has shifted it's elitist to demand the quality we used to hope for in our fpps. It resembles the willful ignorance of american politics in a way that's disheartening. Partly, I believe that this is because we have a lot of mefites around who deserve their voice in metatalk just like everybody else, but who frankly have no idea what metatalk is for. So they say things like "flag it and move on" because they believe that their valuable contribution to the discussion is to tell someone that they don't deserve to talk, and they believe that metatalk is here for bug reports and meetups. That they are wrong on both counts seems obvious to me, but dicussing that is difficult. Metatalk has a purpose. It is not whatever the community decides it is. It is what it was designed to be. There should be some authority which can be turned to to say "no. flags did not eliminate the need for callouts. no, you should not come in here to tell people they can't discuss post quality." instead we have discussions like so:
callout: this post? really?
comment: flag it and move on.
OP (or like minded user): no, this is what metatalk is for. if you have nothing to contribute, then go away.
commenter: fuck that. metatalk isn't so you can whine about every post you don't like.
there is no resolution to this disagreement, because there doesn't seem to be any authoritative source we can turn to that will say "THIS IS METATALK'S PURPOSE: FOO. ALL BAZ SUPPORTERS FIND SOME WAY TO WORK WITHIN THE FOO SYSTEM." If there's a point where an admin said "flags did not spell the death knell of the callout system." OR "flags spelled the death knell of the callout system." then I can't find it. I doubt it exists, but hey I suppose it's possible. More importantly, if someone said it then it clearly hasn't sunk in and nobody's found it important enough to repeat, which is unfortunate.
So I see it as partly the natural result of a growing userbase, but it seems to have been inadvertently allowed to happen because no one ever resolves these disputes about what metatalk is for. Do we discuss post quality here or not, since (as madamejujujive so perfectly pointed out) there is no flag for "this is a shit post even though it's not offensive?" If someone says "flag it and move on" and gets the customary 18+ favorites from the snark brigade, is that the appropriate response or do the admins feel differently? I like to think you guys see callouts as a part of metatalk's functionality, but I'll be damned if I can see why you don't make that more clear if I'm right about that.
posted by shmegegge at 11:35 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
If you have a dozen like-minded academics in a room talking, the LCD could easily be something esoterically academic. If you have a thousand people from all over the place in a room talking, the LCD is far likelier to be dick jokes.
I bet academics make great dick jokes. especially if they're biology professors or something. That would make a vas deferens.
posted by jonmc at 11:37 AM on June 23, 2008 [9 favorites]
I bet academics make great dick jokes. especially if they're biology professors or something. That would make a vas deferens.
posted by jonmc at 11:37 AM on June 23, 2008 [9 favorites]
I'm working on a theory that Jon did swim with the girl, he did drown, and the anti-jon used some sort of wormhole to replaced him in our universe
and Phil Collins wrote a song about it, and then the guy showed up at a concert and phil made them shine the spotlights on the guy and he KILLED HIMSELF.
IT'S TRUE.
posted by dirtdirt at 11:37 AM on June 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
and Phil Collins wrote a song about it, and then the guy showed up at a concert and phil made them shine the spotlights on the guy and he KILLED HIMSELF.
IT'S TRUE.
posted by dirtdirt at 11:37 AM on June 23, 2008 [3 favorites]
jonmc, that was the worst joke ever. Congratulations! You've won Amy Winehouse!
posted by Mister_A at 11:44 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Mister_A at 11:44 AM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
also, The Weekly World News is a tabloid parody. They're just so into the deception that they won't ever admit it.
posted by shmegegge at 11:45 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by shmegegge at 11:45 AM on June 23, 2008
You've won Amy Winehouse!
Sigh
*speads wood shavings on floor. fills drip bottle with morphine drip*
posted by jonmc at 11:46 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Sigh
*speads wood shavings on floor. fills drip bottle with morphine drip*
posted by jonmc at 11:46 AM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Duffy is already ripping Amy Winehouse off, and she's not even dead yet.
Will be soon though. Sad.
posted by bardic at 11:52 AM on June 23, 2008
Will be soon though. Sad.
posted by bardic at 11:52 AM on June 23, 2008
Wait, I missed the part of the thread where everyone was talking about substandard cartoon characters? I guess I'll have to save my Super Globetrotters rant for another day then.
posted by burnmp3s at 11:55 AM on June 23, 2008
posted by burnmp3s at 11:55 AM on June 23, 2008
shmegegge, I hear you (and thanks too for the reply, mjjj).
One thing that strikes me sometimes about mefi is that we don't do a whole lot of proactive user education from the admin side. There's no pop-up tips or Clippy the Paperclip; we don't run rotating boldface announcement banners across the top of the site; we don't blast out emails to the userbase; etc. There's the FAQ, and occasional metatalk posts from us (though these are almost universally about features or bug fixes, not policy), and we sidebar policy stuff every once in a great while, but in a sense a user has to want to learn about the site to learn about it.
Which is a mixed bag; on the bright side, we're not hollering at people on a regular basis and user education becomes more a mix of toes-in-the-water exploration and learning from mistakes and community feedback. On the down side, there's less clarity on some stuff until someone asks for a definitive answer, and navigating edge cases can be kind of a rocky journey.
All of which is to say that I think that some of what you're describing as "administrative inaction" is a fair cop, in that we're more or less in the same place, as far as admin intervention and declarations of fiat, as we were three and six and nine years ago: there's not overly much of it.
One thing that I see as being a little different from what you're describing, though, is that we do exhort folks, in-thread or in deletion reasons (and via email as well, though obviously that's not visible to the userbase), to take stuff to metatalk. That's probably the best direct tool we have for guiding new users to this place and for establishing some of the things it's for, as far as callouts or side discussions/arguments and so on. It's at least getting the idea out there in the context of some of the contentious threads that relate to the whole idea.
I don't think we often find ourselves saying that Metatalk is explicitly for something, so much as we sometimes have to make an argument for what it's not when someone sort of pushes the envelope. So I don't know if there's really a "metatalk is for callouts" comment to be found anywhere, but as far as that goes and as far as this is useful:
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:18 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
One thing that strikes me sometimes about mefi is that we don't do a whole lot of proactive user education from the admin side. There's no pop-up tips or Clippy the Paperclip; we don't run rotating boldface announcement banners across the top of the site; we don't blast out emails to the userbase; etc. There's the FAQ, and occasional metatalk posts from us (though these are almost universally about features or bug fixes, not policy), and we sidebar policy stuff every once in a great while, but in a sense a user has to want to learn about the site to learn about it.
Which is a mixed bag; on the bright side, we're not hollering at people on a regular basis and user education becomes more a mix of toes-in-the-water exploration and learning from mistakes and community feedback. On the down side, there's less clarity on some stuff until someone asks for a definitive answer, and navigating edge cases can be kind of a rocky journey.
All of which is to say that I think that some of what you're describing as "administrative inaction" is a fair cop, in that we're more or less in the same place, as far as admin intervention and declarations of fiat, as we were three and six and nine years ago: there's not overly much of it.
One thing that I see as being a little different from what you're describing, though, is that we do exhort folks, in-thread or in deletion reasons (and via email as well, though obviously that's not visible to the userbase), to take stuff to metatalk. That's probably the best direct tool we have for guiding new users to this place and for establishing some of the things it's for, as far as callouts or side discussions/arguments and so on. It's at least getting the idea out there in the context of some of the contentious threads that relate to the whole idea.
I don't think we often find ourselves saying that Metatalk is explicitly for something, so much as we sometimes have to make an argument for what it's not when someone sort of pushes the envelope. So I don't know if there's really a "metatalk is for callouts" comment to be found anywhere, but as far as that goes and as far as this is useful:
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:18 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Posting threads to Metatalk calling out problematic posts or behavior remains a valid use of this part of the site. It's one of the things Metatalk is for.
However, it's possible to do it pretty badly in a few different ways. See previous comments, take a deep breath, consider email as a first step, and caveat postor.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:18 PM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
However, it's possible to do it pretty badly in a few different ways. See previous comments, take a deep breath, consider email as a first step, and caveat postor.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:18 PM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
I believe that the latin for "Poster" in the sense you're using it is actually spelled "flamebait."
posted by shmegegge at 12:22 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by shmegegge at 12:22 PM on June 23, 2008
I like to think you guys see callouts as a part of metatalk's functionality, but I'll be damned if I can see why you don't make that more clear if I'm right about that.
I see MeTa as being for that, certainly. I see it as a call and response thing, often, and if something came to MeTa slowly (as this post did, after the thread was in full-swing) it's a different animal than someone complaining about a doomed post after 20 minutes in what should maybe have been an email to the mods. So there's a few instances
A "clearly" [to mods or many flaggers] deletable thread gets deleted
B MeTa about it being not deleteworthy
A Much loved thread gets deleted
B MeTa about that being a bad mod decision
A. "unclear" thread gets deleted
B Meta about it shouldn't be deleted
B good riddance MeTa about its deletion
So in each case, the resulting MeTa thread can get both a mod response "well this is what I was thinking" but also the popular response from whoever is in MeTa that can compare and contrast to the mod response. If there's a stark disagreement between those perspectives we can and have changed the way we do things here.
I do agree that there's definitely a sense in a larger site that when cortex and I and mathowie [and pb to a lesser extent] chime in here we're wearing our Mod Hats and can't just josh along with everyone if there's a really contentious topic because if you don't know our whole history here, an offhand remark may seem really callow or harsh. So, we're careful. We try harder to update the FAQ when decisions come out of MeTa threads. We try to email people who seem particularly aggrieved by either our decisions or popular opinion. We try to keep people from being raging assholes in MeTa but I think all of us would much rather that sort of thing went on here than in AskMe or MeFi.
We have no user education here and we assume that people will make an effort to figure things out. This effort is easier when people aren't being total jackasses when people come to MeTa with a suggestion but as cortex says there are better and worse ways to do that and I find that irritable can beget irritable and that's always been the MeFi way as much as I wish it weren't so, some days.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:10 PM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
I see MeTa as being for that, certainly. I see it as a call and response thing, often, and if something came to MeTa slowly (as this post did, after the thread was in full-swing) it's a different animal than someone complaining about a doomed post after 20 minutes in what should maybe have been an email to the mods. So there's a few instances
A "clearly" [to mods or many flaggers] deletable thread gets deleted
B MeTa about it being not deleteworthy
A Much loved thread gets deleted
B MeTa about that being a bad mod decision
A. "unclear" thread gets deleted
B Meta about it shouldn't be deleted
B good riddance MeTa about its deletion
So in each case, the resulting MeTa thread can get both a mod response "well this is what I was thinking" but also the popular response from whoever is in MeTa that can compare and contrast to the mod response. If there's a stark disagreement between those perspectives we can and have changed the way we do things here.
I do agree that there's definitely a sense in a larger site that when cortex and I and mathowie [and pb to a lesser extent] chime in here we're wearing our Mod Hats and can't just josh along with everyone if there's a really contentious topic because if you don't know our whole history here, an offhand remark may seem really callow or harsh. So, we're careful. We try harder to update the FAQ when decisions come out of MeTa threads. We try to email people who seem particularly aggrieved by either our decisions or popular opinion. We try to keep people from being raging assholes in MeTa but I think all of us would much rather that sort of thing went on here than in AskMe or MeFi.
We have no user education here and we assume that people will make an effort to figure things out. This effort is easier when people aren't being total jackasses when people come to MeTa with a suggestion but as cortex says there are better and worse ways to do that and I find that irritable can beget irritable and that's always been the MeFi way as much as I wish it weren't so, some days.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:10 PM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Do you realize that there are only two references to "caveat posterior" (Latin for "cover your ass") on the entire internet?
Whups, three now.
posted by tkolar at 1:11 PM on June 23, 2008
Whups, three now.
posted by tkolar at 1:11 PM on June 23, 2008
It might be time for another contest!
posted by frecklefaerie at 1:15 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by frecklefaerie at 1:15 PM on June 23, 2008
caveat interior, anterior, et exterior!
posted by blue_beetle at 1:28 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by blue_beetle at 1:28 PM on June 23, 2008
caveat six
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:31 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:31 PM on June 23, 2008
NA na na na na na na na
CAVEATMAN!
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:36 PM on June 23, 2008
there is no resolution to this disagreement, because there doesn't seem to be any authoritative source we can turn to that will say [blah blah]... So I see it as partly the natural result of a growing userbase, but it seems to have been inadvertently allowed to happen because no one ever resolves these disputes about what metatalk is for.
I really don't understand this. So you imagine that now that two admins have authoritatively made it clear that yes, this is what MetaTalk is for, there has been a "resolution" and no one will ever again say "flag it and move on"? Most MeFites don't read MeTa, and most of those who do won't happen to see those two comments, and some of those who do will say "flag it and move on" anyway. There is no way to make all MeFites behave a certain way. Sorry if this disturbs you, but you might as well get used to it.
Do you realize that there are only two references to "caveat posterior" (Latin for "cover your ass") on the entire internet?
Maybe that's because "caveat posterior" does not in fact mean "cover your ass."
posted by languagehat at 1:58 PM on June 23, 2008
I really don't understand this. So you imagine that now that two admins have authoritatively made it clear that yes, this is what MetaTalk is for, there has been a "resolution" and no one will ever again say "flag it and move on"? Most MeFites don't read MeTa, and most of those who do won't happen to see those two comments, and some of those who do will say "flag it and move on" anyway. There is no way to make all MeFites behave a certain way. Sorry if this disturbs you, but you might as well get used to it.
Do you realize that there are only two references to "caveat posterior" (Latin for "cover your ass") on the entire internet?
Maybe that's because "caveat posterior" does not in fact mean "cover your ass."
posted by languagehat at 1:58 PM on June 23, 2008
Asshole beware?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 2:00 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by Armitage Shanks at 2:00 PM on June 23, 2008
I started a new RPG this weekend, a neat little game for the DS, and I named my guild "Assholes" and gave my party names like "Poostick" and "Fart" and "Goatsecx" (he's a ninja!), and my wife pretty much just shook her head when she saw this. Weariness, not surprise.
It's pretty great when I get in a fight and the game's all "Lube attacks!"
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:03 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's pretty great when I get in a fight and the game's all "Lube attacks!"
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:03 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
how about adoperire nates?
posted by boo_radley at 2:04 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by boo_radley at 2:04 PM on June 23, 2008
Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:08 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:08 PM on June 23, 2008
It seems to me that post critique has gradually moved away from MeTa, and into the MeFi posts themselves. There are about a dozen members who feel they have been assigned the responsibility of passing judgment on nearly every MeFi post. You find them within the first ten comments in most posts on the blue.
Whether it's your favorite band sucks, or Pepsi Blue, too newsfilter or cracking snark, more and more posts are becoming polluted before they even have a chance. A lot of that noise used to be over here on MeTa.
posted by netbros at 2:08 PM on June 23, 2008
Whether it's your favorite band sucks, or Pepsi Blue, too newsfilter or cracking snark, more and more posts are becoming polluted before they even have a chance. A lot of that noise used to be over here on MeTa.
posted by netbros at 2:08 PM on June 23, 2008
So you imagine that now that two admins have authoritatively made it clear that yes, this is what MetaTalk is for, there has been a "resolution" and no one will ever again say "flag it and move on"?
Do you honestly believe that's what I was imagining? Really, deep down in your heart, do you think that I now consider the matter so well and truly settled that it will surely never be debated again? If you don't - what, instead, do you think I might have been looking for?
There is no way to make all MeFites behave a certain way. Sorry if this disturbs you, but you might as well get used to it.
Oh my God. You're right. I can't believe it escaped me all this time. Jesus, what a fool I've been!
posted by shmegegge at 2:11 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Do you honestly believe that's what I was imagining? Really, deep down in your heart, do you think that I now consider the matter so well and truly settled that it will surely never be debated again? If you don't - what, instead, do you think I might have been looking for?
There is no way to make all MeFites behave a certain way. Sorry if this disturbs you, but you might as well get used to it.
Oh my God. You're right. I can't believe it escaped me all this time. Jesus, what a fool I've been!
posted by shmegegge at 2:11 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Maybe that's because "caveat posterior" does not in fact mean "cover your ass."
also, i'm pretty sure he was kidding.
posted by shmegegge at 2:14 PM on June 23, 2008
also, i'm pretty sure he was kidding.
posted by shmegegge at 2:14 PM on June 23, 2008
There is no way to make all MeFites behave a certain way
That's such bullshit, all of them click on hyper links when they can.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:16 PM on June 23, 2008
That's such bullshit, all of them click on hyper links when they can.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:16 PM on June 23, 2008
Cortex, I always named my capital city in Civilization "Veiny Chorizo".
You're not alone.
posted by maxwelton at 2:24 PM on June 23, 2008
You're not alone.
posted by maxwelton at 2:24 PM on June 23, 2008
In Patapon, my mighty god-king drummer guy that you play as is named Poop, which amuses me when the little patapons say things like "Oh Mighty Poop," and "We Love Poop!" Also, Poop is my hamster's name, so he likes to watch me play.
posted by shmegegge at 2:29 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by shmegegge at 2:29 PM on June 23, 2008
I don't like it, because in retrospect, instead of my comment being:
HA HA!
I would have much preferred for it to be:
HA...*gasp*...HA!
posted by turgid dahlia at 2:35 PM on June 23, 2008
HA HA!
I would have much preferred for it to be:
HA...*gasp*...HA!
posted by turgid dahlia at 2:35 PM on June 23, 2008
Do you realize that there are only two references to "caveat posterior" (Latin for "cover your ass") on the entire internet?Maybe that's because "caveat posterior" does not in fact mean "cover your ass."
Next you'll be telling me that "carpe carpe" doesn't mean "seize the fish".
posted by tkolar at 2:45 PM on June 23, 2008
BLIND ITEM : What internet site admin was recently seen caressing the frosting off a rather large donut? He quietly checked into a Oregon diet center only to head for the exits when the staff said they would be searching his bags? What do you mean Voodoo Donuts doesn't deliver?
posted by Dave Faris at 2:46 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Dave Faris at 2:46 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
As opposed to the thousands of other people who are also struggling with drug and alcohol addiction, but no one cares about them because they aren't rich, famous, or talented.
I'm not sure how caring about one person's plight automatically implies that you don't care about others in the same plight. I think tragedy is tragedy. So don't put words into my mouth.
posted by miss lynnster at 3:00 PM on June 23, 2008
I'm not sure how caring about one person's plight automatically implies that you don't care about others in the same plight. I think tragedy is tragedy. So don't put words into my mouth.
posted by miss lynnster at 3:00 PM on June 23, 2008
It's a shame to see a bright young mod fritter away his health like that.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:03 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:03 PM on June 23, 2008
Seize the Donut!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:08 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:08 PM on June 23, 2008
Sometimes*, when you've been waiting in a store with crappy service, you find yourself involuntarily swaying to Duffy on the radio. The radio is usually so bad you need all Carlin's expletives (or a hearty "meh") to describe it. Days like these you don't complain about posts on Amy Winehouse.
*i.e. today
'fess up, cortex, which game is it?
posted by ersatz at 3:26 PM on June 23, 2008
*i.e. today
'fess up, cortex, which game is it?
posted by ersatz at 3:26 PM on June 23, 2008
Penny Arcade was talking about in re: graph paper on Friday. It is kind of awesomely old-schooly, and I got to kill a dinosaur.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:35 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:35 PM on June 23, 2008
Ah, Etrian Odyssey II. That's word of mouth for you: the first one got a rep for good old-school gameplay and when the sequel came out everyone and their mom crawled out of the Temple of Elemental Evil to buy it. I'm curious how many units they'll sell.
posted by ersatz at 3:51 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by ersatz at 3:51 PM on June 23, 2008
But if tragedy is tragedy, then you agree Amy Winehouse's drug addiction and recent diagnosis isn't particularly noteworthy, fascinating, or worthy of an FPP.
honestly, it seems to me that some people really get into the lives of celebrities, and I think the argument that we shouldn't care about them any more than we do about everyday people is a tired and moot one. The fact is that some of us do care more, likely because their work, in one way or another, has affected our lives in some way that matters to us. People die every day, but when Frank Sinatra, Nina Simone, Jeff Buckley and Kurt Vonnegut died that shit busted me up. The idea that it shouldn't is silly. It did. Done properly, celebrity related news CAN be a valuable contribution to the site. Done poorly, anything can be a poor contribution to the site. I don't think the topic is the problem quite as much as it's the treatment.
posted by shmegegge at 3:57 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
honestly, it seems to me that some people really get into the lives of celebrities, and I think the argument that we shouldn't care about them any more than we do about everyday people is a tired and moot one. The fact is that some of us do care more, likely because their work, in one way or another, has affected our lives in some way that matters to us. People die every day, but when Frank Sinatra, Nina Simone, Jeff Buckley and Kurt Vonnegut died that shit busted me up. The idea that it shouldn't is silly. It did. Done properly, celebrity related news CAN be a valuable contribution to the site. Done poorly, anything can be a poor contribution to the site. I don't think the topic is the problem quite as much as it's the treatment.
posted by shmegegge at 3:57 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm beginning to doubt the reality of kigpig.
I'm not one of the one's who flagged your post. Nor did I start the insults in the thread. I even have been polite in the thread past a few insults when it's clear that any confusion is a result of different word usage. Moreover I am fairly convinced that you understand my position and argument perfectly well, so just quit it.
posted by kigpig at 4:05 PM on June 23, 2008
I'm not one of the one's who flagged your post. Nor did I start the insults in the thread. I even have been polite in the thread past a few insults when it's clear that any confusion is a result of different word usage. Moreover I am fairly convinced that you understand my position and argument perfectly well, so just quit it.
posted by kigpig at 4:05 PM on June 23, 2008
a) if [tragedy is tragedy]
b) then [you agree Amy Winehouse's drug addiction and recent diagnosis isn't particularly noteworthy, fascinating, or worthy of an FPP]
b doesn't follow from a at all. To whatever extent Amy Winehouse's drug addiction and recent diagnosis is noteworthy, fascinating, or worthy of an FPP, it is due to Amy Winehouse being to a similar extent also otherwise noteworthy, fascinating, or worthy of an FPP, not because her tragedy is more worthy of attention in and of itself.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:05 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
b) then [you agree Amy Winehouse's drug addiction and recent diagnosis isn't particularly noteworthy, fascinating, or worthy of an FPP]
b doesn't follow from a at all. To whatever extent Amy Winehouse's drug addiction and recent diagnosis is noteworthy, fascinating, or worthy of an FPP, it is due to Amy Winehouse being to a similar extent also otherwise noteworthy, fascinating, or worthy of an FPP, not because her tragedy is more worthy of attention in and of itself.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:05 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
or is it that Amy Winehouse was noteworthy independent of her addiction (debateable, since here most famous song was about her reputation as an addict)? Agreed, I can introduce you to a score of people with addiction issues who, if I offered them as FPP's would get deleted in an instant. But, will Winehouse's publicity draw more attention to these people's plight if only by raising awareness, or will they engender an interesting discussion about addiction/music/tattoos/beehive hairdos among us Mefites?
*primps beehive hairdo*
posted by jonmc at 4:12 PM on June 23, 2008
*primps beehive hairdo*
posted by jonmc at 4:12 PM on June 23, 2008
I have an untreated addiction to beehive hairdos.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:25 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:25 PM on June 23, 2008
I actually in some way care about this story on the level that I care about any celebrity I've never met -- and I think the subject matter could be a good post. It's mostly that a potentially good post was wrapped around an utter turd of a source that bothered me. I think this is a case where we could've waited for an actual credible source to arise to make a post about it. I mean, the post a couple of weeks ago speculating that Paul Newman had cancer was deleted because it was basically baseless, or at least unconfirmed -- I think this falls into the same category. It's maybe even worse because there literally was only one source reporting this story.
posted by loiseau at 4:51 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by loiseau at 4:51 PM on June 23, 2008
As noted above the “utter turd” of a source is good enough for the BBC, NY Times, etc… I could have linked to one of them, I guess, and possibly avoided signals bullshit alarmism and this whole silly thread, but it’s just the same information dressed up somewhat differently.
posted by Artw at 5:00 PM on June 23, 2008
posted by Artw at 5:00 PM on June 23, 2008
Do you realize that there are only two references to "caveat posterior" (Latin for "cover your ass") on the entire internet?
Maybe that's because "caveat posterior" does not in fact mean "cover your ass."
Inquiring minds need to know! What is Latin for cover your ass?
posted by arnicae at 5:01 PM on June 23, 2008
Maybe that's because "caveat posterior" does not in fact mean "cover your ass."
Inquiring minds need to know! What is Latin for cover your ass?
posted by arnicae at 5:01 PM on June 23, 2008
Twenty bucks, same as in town.
In related news, Patrick Swayze not dead.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:12 PM on June 23, 2008
In related news, Patrick Swayze not dead.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:12 PM on June 23, 2008
or is it that Amy Winehouse was noteworthy independent of her addiction (debateable, since here most famous song was about her reputation as an addict)? Agreed, I can introduce you to a score of people with addiction issues who, if I offered them as FPP's would get deleted in an instant. But, will Winehouse's publicity draw more attention to these people's plight if only by raising awareness, or will they engender an interesting discussion about addiction/music/tattoos/beehive hairdos among us Mefites?
To clarify, I actually have no opinion whatsoever on Winehouse or her troubles. I just find myself unaccountably annoyed whenever someone trots out "You can't care about x unless you care equally about all the other variables, too." You know what? Yes, I can. I don't care as much about hypothetical, nameless, faceless people suffering God only knows what as I do about people whose situations I have actually heard something specific about. Sorry nameless, faceless others. There are billions of folks out there, and every one of you is going to die, and all of your loved ones are going to die, and history is a great big shit sandwich that I can't possibly eat all of. So I'll just continue to nibble at the bits of misery I can actually see and comprehend, and you feel free to gobble other bits and by God, I think there's enough suffering out there for even the most righteous to get their fill.
*grumpiness not aimed at anyone in particular*
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:18 PM on June 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
To clarify, I actually have no opinion whatsoever on Winehouse or her troubles. I just find myself unaccountably annoyed whenever someone trots out "You can't care about x unless you care equally about all the other variables, too." You know what? Yes, I can. I don't care as much about hypothetical, nameless, faceless people suffering God only knows what as I do about people whose situations I have actually heard something specific about. Sorry nameless, faceless others. There are billions of folks out there, and every one of you is going to die, and all of your loved ones are going to die, and history is a great big shit sandwich that I can't possibly eat all of. So I'll just continue to nibble at the bits of misery I can actually see and comprehend, and you feel free to gobble other bits and by God, I think there's enough suffering out there for even the most righteous to get their fill.
*grumpiness not aimed at anyone in particular*
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:18 PM on June 23, 2008 [5 favorites]
Patrick Swayze not dead.
Then neither are my hopes for his triumphant return in Roadhouse 3: The Coolering.
The less said of the Swayze-free Roadhouse 2: Electric Boogaloo, the better.
posted by dersins at 5:19 PM on June 23, 2008
Then neither are my hopes for his triumphant return in Roadhouse 3: The Coolering.
The less said of the Swayze-free Roadhouse 2: Electric Boogaloo, the better.
posted by dersins at 5:19 PM on June 23, 2008
It's mostly that a potentially good post was wrapped around an utter turd of a source that bothered me.
How is an interview with Winehouse's dad in the Sunday Mirror an utter turd of a source? If it was the NotW or the fucking Sun, you might have a point, but (Piers Morgan's Abu Ghraib photos aside) the Mirror papers have a relatively sturdy reputation - Paul Foot and John Pilger did some of their best work at The Daily Mirror, after all. It's certainly the only red top worth buying, even now.
posted by jack_mo at 5:45 PM on June 23, 2008
How is an interview with Winehouse's dad in the Sunday Mirror an utter turd of a source? If it was the NotW or the fucking Sun, you might have a point, but (Piers Morgan's Abu Ghraib photos aside) the Mirror papers have a relatively sturdy reputation - Paul Foot and John Pilger did some of their best work at The Daily Mirror, after all. It's certainly the only red top worth buying, even now.
posted by jack_mo at 5:45 PM on June 23, 2008
Inquiring minds need to know! What is Latin for cover your ass?
I'm not an expert here, but it looks like "Tegis Culum" would mean "You (singular) cover [your] ass" in a declarative rather than imperative sense. Maybe "Protegis Culum" would have more of a "protect yourself" sense, but the English expression isn't "Protect your ass." I could start doing up infinitives and imperatives and I, we, you, you guys, he she or it, and they covering asses, but I think one example is enough.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 6:42 PM on June 23, 2008
I'm not an expert here, but it looks like "Tegis Culum" would mean "You (singular) cover [your] ass" in a declarative rather than imperative sense. Maybe "Protegis Culum" would have more of a "protect yourself" sense, but the English expression isn't "Protect your ass." I could start doing up infinitives and imperatives and I, we, you, you guys, he she or it, and they covering asses, but I think one example is enough.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 6:42 PM on June 23, 2008
I'm a lousy Latinist, but I think the imperative of tegere is tege, hence: Tege culum.
honestly, it seems to me that some people really get into the lives of celebrities, and I think the argument that we shouldn't care about them any more than we do about everyday people is a tired and moot one. The fact is that some of us do care more, likely because their work, in one way or another, has affected our lives in some way that matters to us.
I agree with this.
posted by languagehat at 7:15 PM on June 23, 2008
honestly, it seems to me that some people really get into the lives of celebrities, and I think the argument that we shouldn't care about them any more than we do about everyday people is a tired and moot one. The fact is that some of us do care more, likely because their work, in one way or another, has affected our lives in some way that matters to us.
I agree with this.
posted by languagehat at 7:15 PM on June 23, 2008
avoided signals bullshit alarmism and this whole silly thread
It's a single link to a scandalous news story about an interview with a person making an unverified claim about her health, and padded out with wikipedia and youtube links. And although there's a level of defeating prophesy in pointing this out, despite generating a lot of comments, the post hasn't generated a single favorite, 20 hours after it was posted. That's as good an indication as any about its quality.
You're obviously smart enough to make a better post than this level of sensationalistic bullshit.
posted by Dave Faris at 7:48 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's a single link to a scandalous news story about an interview with a person making an unverified claim about her health, and padded out with wikipedia and youtube links. And although there's a level of defeating prophesy in pointing this out, despite generating a lot of comments, the post hasn't generated a single favorite, 20 hours after it was posted. That's as good an indication as any about its quality.
You're obviously smart enough to make a better post than this level of sensationalistic bullshit.
posted by Dave Faris at 7:48 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
>shrugs<>
You know what, I'd absolutely post it again. I'd probably change the title, which is fairly horrible, and inlcude more youtube links to songs, but that's about is. Theres fuck all wrong with the source - "some guy" is her dad, for fucks sake, and despite all the pissy FUD bullshit it's a story in a major national newspaper that's been picked up by every major news source. I'd maybe emphasis the Rolling Stone article more, it's a pretty good article, but let's face it that wouldn't make much difference, Faris here isn't really about clicking through and reading, he's about pissing and moaning as much as possible.
And Faris, you'd have me count favourites? Fucks sake man. What kind of petty little weasel are you? Crawl back to your hole, you sad little man.
posted by Artw at 8:53 PM on June 23, 2008
You know what, I'd absolutely post it again. I'd probably change the title, which is fairly horrible, and inlcude more youtube links to songs, but that's about is. Theres fuck all wrong with the source - "some guy" is her dad, for fucks sake, and despite all the pissy FUD bullshit it's a story in a major national newspaper that's been picked up by every major news source. I'd maybe emphasis the Rolling Stone article more, it's a pretty good article, but let's face it that wouldn't make much difference, Faris here isn't really about clicking through and reading, he's about pissing and moaning as much as possible.
And Faris, you'd have me count favourites? Fucks sake man. What kind of petty little weasel are you? Crawl back to your hole, you sad little man.
posted by Artw at 8:53 PM on June 23, 2008
the post hasn't generated a single favorite, 20 hours after it was posted. That's as good an indication as any about its quality.
Favorites are not an indication of quality. A twist on the common phrase: if you want to know what God thinks of favorites, just look at the people he gives them to.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:01 PM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
Favorites are not an indication of quality. A twist on the common phrase: if you want to know what God thinks of favorites, just look at the people he gives them to.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:01 PM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
I'm so confused.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:21 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:21 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
That Joke That Burhanistan Just Made About You
AN EXPLICATION
~ by cortex
1. You said, of favorites, "just look at the people he gives them to".
2. The implication is that he gives them to subpar people.
3. Burhanistan noted tacitly that you have many favorites.
4. A tremendous portion of those were awarded you by a quixotic davey_darling.
5. Burhanistan states that "davey_darling isn't God".
6. The implication is that, while
6a. Your assessment that subpar people receive favorites is correct, and
6b. You qualify, thereby, as subpar
6c. You are nonetheless mistaken in your implicit assessment that davey_darling is God.
7. Therefore, you are subpar, bad at deism to boot, and davey_darling doesn't even get divinity out of the deal.
8. Or something like that, maybe Burhan can correct me if I unpacked it correctly.
9. ICE BUUUUUUUUUURN etc
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:38 PM on June 23, 2008 [11 favorites]
AN EXPLICATION
~ by cortex
1. You said, of favorites, "just look at the people he gives them to".
2. The implication is that he gives them to subpar people.
3. Burhanistan noted tacitly that you have many favorites.
4. A tremendous portion of those were awarded you by a quixotic davey_darling.
5. Burhanistan states that "davey_darling isn't God".
6. The implication is that, while
6a. Your assessment that subpar people receive favorites is correct, and
6b. You qualify, thereby, as subpar
6c. You are nonetheless mistaken in your implicit assessment that davey_darling is God.
7. Therefore, you are subpar, bad at deism to boot, and davey_darling doesn't even get divinity out of the deal.
8. Or something like that, maybe Burhan can correct me if I unpacked it correctly.
9. ICE BUUUUUUUUUURN etc
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:38 PM on June 23, 2008 [11 favorites]
I don't care what any of you say, davey_darling will always hold a special place in my heart. Right next to Jesus. Smaller room, though; sorry, davey_darling.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:46 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:46 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Theres fuck all wrong with the source - "some guy" is her dad, for fucks sake, and despite all the pissy FUD bullshit it's a story in a major national newspaper that's been picked up by every major news source.
Winehouse Dad's Overblown Diagnosis
Turns out Amy Winehouse's pop is the one blowing a little smoke these days.
The singer's rep is saying that the 24-year-old Brit does not have emphysema, as her father told Britain's Sunday Mirror over the weekend.
Rather, she has "early signs of what could lead to emphysema," rep Tracey Miller said Monday.
Mitch Winehouse was only speaking "out of his concern for her" when he told the press that his little girl was suffering through the early stages of the chronic respiratory disease.
Just sayin'.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:47 PM on June 23, 2008
Winehouse Dad's Overblown Diagnosis
Turns out Amy Winehouse's pop is the one blowing a little smoke these days.
The singer's rep is saying that the 24-year-old Brit does not have emphysema, as her father told Britain's Sunday Mirror over the weekend.
Rather, she has "early signs of what could lead to emphysema," rep Tracey Miller said Monday.
Mitch Winehouse was only speaking "out of his concern for her" when he told the press that his little girl was suffering through the early stages of the chronic respiratory disease.
Just sayin'.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:47 PM on June 23, 2008
10f. What has cortex been smoking and where may I obtain some?
I don't care that much about people giving me favorites; is this more of my hyperagnosticism?
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:17 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
I don't care that much about people giving me favorites; is this more of my hyperagnosticism?
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:17 PM on June 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Rather, she has "early signs of what could lead to emphysema," rep Tracey Miller said Monday.
That sounds like something someone in my family would say. I always had thought my mom had a heart attack when I was in 9th grade and that she had a horrible heart condition. So then when her health really started fading after her first few strokes, I was talking to her doctor and he kept acting surprised when I continued to ask about her heart condition, responding, "Your mom has no heart condition." Shocked, when I asked my mom, she said, "Well, at the time the doctor told me that at the rate I was going I was surely about to develop one." Ooooohhhhhh. Okay. Good to know that... decades later.
Grrrrrrrrr.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:40 PM on June 23, 2008
That sounds like something someone in my family would say. I always had thought my mom had a heart attack when I was in 9th grade and that she had a horrible heart condition. So then when her health really started fading after her first few strokes, I was talking to her doctor and he kept acting surprised when I continued to ask about her heart condition, responding, "Your mom has no heart condition." Shocked, when I asked my mom, she said, "Well, at the time the doctor told me that at the rate I was going I was surely about to develop one." Ooooohhhhhh. Okay. Good to know that... decades later.
Grrrrrrrrr.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:40 PM on June 23, 2008
if you want to know what God thinks of favorites, just look at the people he gives them to
As we all know, God left the site back around Christmas of '05. In a blasphemous show of hubris, mathowie declared God to be little more than a "war3z d00d", and did banish God's AskMe question to the world of limbo. In retribution God visited upon MetaFilter a series of plagues, and the site was pretty locusty for a while. Eventually mathowie sold his soul to the devil and used his new evil powers to defeat God once and for all.
You can read this story and many others in the MeFi Bible, which I have been depositing into sleazy motel rooms across the entire tri-state area.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:45 PM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
As we all know, God left the site back around Christmas of '05. In a blasphemous show of hubris, mathowie declared God to be little more than a "war3z d00d", and did banish God's AskMe question to the world of limbo. In retribution God visited upon MetaFilter a series of plagues, and the site was pretty locusty for a while. Eventually mathowie sold his soul to the devil and used his new evil powers to defeat God once and for all.
You can read this story and many others in the MeFi Bible, which I have been depositing into sleazy motel rooms across the entire tri-state area.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:45 PM on June 23, 2008 [2 favorites]
But if tragedy is tragedy, then you agree Amy Winehouse's drug addiction and recent diagnosis isn't particularly noteworthy, fascinating, or worthy of an FPP.
You know, I felt exactly like this about the death of Mr. Rogers. Who was the old fucker anyway? Mr Rogers was a hero to most, but he never meant shit to me. Hundreds of people die every day, so what was that particular dead celeb doing cluttering up the front page?
(That said, I'm agreeing with Blazecock Pileon about the reasons why this post was deleteworthy, but I'm also agreeing with Jessamyn as to why it wasn't. So count me on the fence here. I just think this particular argument is disingenuous.)
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:50 AM on June 24, 2008
You know, I felt exactly like this about the death of Mr. Rogers. Who was the old fucker anyway? Mr Rogers was a hero to most, but he never meant shit to me. Hundreds of people die every day, so what was that particular dead celeb doing cluttering up the front page?
(That said, I'm agreeing with Blazecock Pileon about the reasons why this post was deleteworthy, but I'm also agreeing with Jessamyn as to why it wasn't. So count me on the fence here. I just think this particular argument is disingenuous.)
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:50 AM on June 24, 2008
Mitch Winehouse was only speaking "out of his concern for her" when he told the press that his little girl was suffering through the early stages of the chronic respiratory disease.
Speaking as the one who got summarily eviscerated in the following comments of said crap thread after pointing out the father's implicit admission of failure, I'd like to take this opportunity to elaborate.
As more than a couple of the community have stopped to point out, this is a rather tragic story. In a limited sense. True tragedy is the girl that grows up with brown water and never sees the wonders of penicillin or an ink pen or a light bulb. But this is still a sad story, watching the indulgence in vices that we so often watch our celebrity darlings spiral off into, victims of their own "success."
But its really her father that's the saddest part. The man appealed to drug dealers, to the pawners of the poisons that are killing his adult daughter, to stop killing her. Who else does this man have to turn to, once he has submitted his plea to such as these? How much more lower can he grovel in the dirt on her behalf? What more can he do?
This is the bitter sadness that I was trying to point out in my statement of "ultimate admission of total failure as a parent." I respect his humility and sincerity of heart, and, for the record, that is the sense in which I made the comment. Not as snark, not as righteous looking down upon him, but as respect for a man who is willing to go to the ends of the earth for his daughter, who loves her so much as to be able to let society glare, oppressively, in mock and shame and derision upon his failure to raise a daughter that could choose a better path.
I hope I never make the same mistakes that Mitch did with his daughter, should I ever be blessed to have one. But I know that I'm no better man than Mitch, and completely capable of the same or worse.
I just hope if I'm ever in his shoes I can do what he's doing now.
cilantro was right. He probably is a great parent, now. But cilantro was also wrong - nobody is a great parent.
posted by allkindsoftime at 4:02 AM on June 24, 2008
Speaking as the one who got summarily eviscerated in the following comments of said crap thread after pointing out the father's implicit admission of failure, I'd like to take this opportunity to elaborate.
As more than a couple of the community have stopped to point out, this is a rather tragic story. In a limited sense. True tragedy is the girl that grows up with brown water and never sees the wonders of penicillin or an ink pen or a light bulb. But this is still a sad story, watching the indulgence in vices that we so often watch our celebrity darlings spiral off into, victims of their own "success."
But its really her father that's the saddest part. The man appealed to drug dealers, to the pawners of the poisons that are killing his adult daughter, to stop killing her. Who else does this man have to turn to, once he has submitted his plea to such as these? How much more lower can he grovel in the dirt on her behalf? What more can he do?
This is the bitter sadness that I was trying to point out in my statement of "ultimate admission of total failure as a parent." I respect his humility and sincerity of heart, and, for the record, that is the sense in which I made the comment. Not as snark, not as righteous looking down upon him, but as respect for a man who is willing to go to the ends of the earth for his daughter, who loves her so much as to be able to let society glare, oppressively, in mock and shame and derision upon his failure to raise a daughter that could choose a better path.
I hope I never make the same mistakes that Mitch did with his daughter, should I ever be blessed to have one. But I know that I'm no better man than Mitch, and completely capable of the same or worse.
I just hope if I'm ever in his shoes I can do what he's doing now.
cilantro was right. He probably is a great parent, now. But cilantro was also wrong - nobody is a great parent.
posted by allkindsoftime at 4:02 AM on June 24, 2008
Favorites are not an indication of quality.
Perhaps, but I took the time to look at every other frontpage post made yesterday. Every single other post had at least one person mark it as a favorite except the one we're talking about. If it's not about quality, then it's indicative of something. Draw your own conclusions.
posted by Dave Faris at 4:49 AM on June 24, 2008
Perhaps, but I took the time to look at every other frontpage post made yesterday. Every single other post had at least one person mark it as a favorite except the one we're talking about. If it's not about quality, then it's indicative of something. Draw your own conclusions.
posted by Dave Faris at 4:49 AM on June 24, 2008
Favorites are an indication of quality. Not everyone uses them as an indication of quality, but a critical mass of users do; that's why the popular favorites tabs exist and are useful.
posted by Kwine at 5:58 AM on June 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Kwine at 5:58 AM on June 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
You can read this story and many others in the MeFi Bible, which I have been depositing into sleazy motel rooms across the entire tri-state area.
It opens with "Doucheprints," the only poem that always makes me cry.
"...And those were the places where I douched you."...*sniff* O god!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:06 AM on June 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
It opens with "Doucheprints," the only poem that always makes me cry.
"...And those were the places where I douched you."...*sniff* O god!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:06 AM on June 24, 2008 [2 favorites]
I prefer to think of my favorites as validations of my right to exist.
posted by waraw at 6:07 AM on June 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by waraw at 6:07 AM on June 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
I don't care that much about people giving me favorites; is this more of my hyperagnosticism? - TheOnlyCoolTim
Take that motherfucker.
posted by Mister_A at 6:45 AM on June 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
Take that motherfucker.
posted by Mister_A at 6:45 AM on June 24, 2008 [1 favorite]
I hope I never make the same mistakes that Mitch did with his daughter
What mistakes were they, then?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:07 AM on June 24, 2008
What mistakes were they, then?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:07 AM on June 24, 2008
But its really her father that's the saddest part. The man appealed to drug dealers, to the pawners of the poisons that are killing his adult daughter, to stop killing her. Who else does this man have to turn to, once he has submitted his plea to such as these? How much more lower can he grovel in the dirt on her behalf? What more can he do?
This is the bitter sadness that I was trying to point out in my statement of "ultimate admission of total failure as a parent."
allkindsoftime
Your after thought comment still niggles.
There are still several steps to the low prize of total parental failure - like disowning her, or actively enabling her, hitting out only at the prurient press, or signing a deal for a warts 'n all book about your kid...
Maybe her dad is a colossal shit, I don't know.
But he's in that strange position of having the world "owning" his daughter's personal details and I can totally see - given the pressures the UK tabloids put on parents of celebrities - why he's making these statements.
I accept that he may see the press as a means of urgent communication with his own child.
Also - and maybe I'm totally off base - but emphysema - or, as it seems to be now, her pre-emphysema state - is at least a bloody unromantic condition.
It's a diagnosis that at least defamiliarizes the standard, easily romanticized druggie-pop-star story.
(Basically, I thought the post was fine. And if it was Joanne Woodward being quoted in a direct interview about Paul Newman's condition - that post might have stayed. No matter how dodgy the publication concerned.)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:50 AM on June 24, 2008
This is the bitter sadness that I was trying to point out in my statement of "ultimate admission of total failure as a parent."
allkindsoftime
Your after thought comment still niggles.
There are still several steps to the low prize of total parental failure - like disowning her, or actively enabling her, hitting out only at the prurient press, or signing a deal for a warts 'n all book about your kid...
Maybe her dad is a colossal shit, I don't know.
But he's in that strange position of having the world "owning" his daughter's personal details and I can totally see - given the pressures the UK tabloids put on parents of celebrities - why he's making these statements.
I accept that he may see the press as a means of urgent communication with his own child.
Also - and maybe I'm totally off base - but emphysema - or, as it seems to be now, her pre-emphysema state - is at least a bloody unromantic condition.
It's a diagnosis that at least defamiliarizes the standard, easily romanticized druggie-pop-star story.
(Basically, I thought the post was fine. And if it was Joanne Woodward being quoted in a direct interview about Paul Newman's condition - that post might have stayed. No matter how dodgy the publication concerned.)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:50 AM on June 24, 2008
Yeah, I was thinking something along those lines – Turning up dead, overdosed in a hotel room is tragic, but also soaked in rock and roll glamour. Having your lungs turn to nasty dead bits of cauliflower like material is tragic but as unglamorous as it gets.
posted by Artw at 10:23 AM on June 24, 2008
posted by Artw at 10:23 AM on June 24, 2008
"ultimate admission of total failure as a parent."
I have no idea what kind of relationship he has with her, of course. But it's hard not to notice that she has a large tattoo on her left arm that reads "Daddy's Girl" above a picture of a topless sexpot.
posted by msalt at 12:18 PM on June 24, 2008
I have no idea what kind of relationship he has with her, of course. But it's hard not to notice that she has a large tattoo on her left arm that reads "Daddy's Girl" above a picture of a topless sexpot.
posted by msalt at 12:18 PM on June 24, 2008
"This one goes out to my Blake, Incarcerated"
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 12:20 PM on June 24, 2008
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 12:20 PM on June 24, 2008
Stay classy, Metafilter.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:30 PM on June 24, 2008
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:30 PM on June 24, 2008
also, The Weekly World News is a tabloid parody. They're just so into the deception that they won't ever admit it.
Also, they're out of business. I really miss Ed Anger.
posted by Gucky at 1:49 PM on June 24, 2008
Also, they're out of business. I really miss Ed Anger.
posted by Gucky at 1:49 PM on June 24, 2008
Also, they're out of business. I really miss Ed Anger.
Agreed. It all just makes me pig-biting mad!
posted by miss lynnster at 4:18 PM on June 24, 2008
Agreed. It all just makes me pig-biting mad!
posted by miss lynnster at 4:18 PM on June 24, 2008
Wikipedia claims that Weekly World News is still published as an insert in the Sun.
Wikipedia also claims that the current editor is HILLARY CLINTON'S ALIEN BABY BAT BOY SECOND GREAT DEPRESSION COMING!!
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 6:46 PM on June 24, 2008
Wikipedia also claims that the current editor is HILLARY CLINTON'S ALIEN BABY BAT BOY SECOND GREAT DEPRESSION COMING!!
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 6:46 PM on June 24, 2008
- she has a large tattoo on her left arm that reads "Daddy's Girl" above a picture of a topless sexpot
Oh, I see she's a Colts fan.
posted by Zambrano at 8:23 PM on June 24, 2008
Oh, I see she's a Colts fan.
posted by Zambrano at 8:23 PM on June 24, 2008
Bad post, weird discussion, funny MetaTalk thread.
Meh.
posted by lazaruslong at 6:11 PM on June 26, 2008
Meh.
posted by lazaruslong at 6:11 PM on June 26, 2008
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
2) "I don't like this post" complaints don't usually go well. MetaFilter is a better place because there's a variety of interests. No one complained when you posted your 100th tech/viz/programming/font/design/math post you saw on infosthetics.com*.
* I like tech/viz/programming/font/design/math posts, and I have no problem with posts via Other Places. But this is far from an epidemic.
posted by Plutor at 8:58 AM on June 23, 2008