Deletion of post about racist Australian Mayor. March 13, 2008 1:22 AM Subscribe
I think the deletion of this post by indienial is a bad call. The continued destruction of all things Aboriginal is a big fat important & undercommented issue, and one which I was looking forward to reading comments about.
I think that the state of Racial inequality in Australia (With highly contentious policies like AACAP) is drastically misrepresented internationally. Ironically, for the "stolen generation", the continued plight of the Aboriginal people of Australia is pretty much ignored. Racial policy in Australia is not in the same place as it is in America. I know why the post was deleted, and I don't really know enough about Oz politics to make a definitive call about how parochial a story it is. However, I feel something important may have been missed, and would suggest (by way of a fix to this problem) that maybe further posts on the subject could be run by a trusted Australian metafilter member to get a feel for how big or important the story is.
I think that the state of Racial inequality in Australia (With highly contentious policies like AACAP) is drastically misrepresented internationally. Ironically, for the "stolen generation", the continued plight of the Aboriginal people of Australia is pretty much ignored. Racial policy in Australia is not in the same place as it is in America. I know why the post was deleted, and I don't really know enough about Oz politics to make a definitive call about how parochial a story it is. However, I feel something important may have been missed, and would suggest (by way of a fix to this problem) that maybe further posts on the subject could be run by a trusted Australian metafilter member to get a feel for how big or important the story is.
seanyboy, you're sending mixed messages. Misrepresentation can't be claimed if the plight is also ignored. You also can't get all hand wavy about what is missed when you're not sure if anything was missed.
Look, this is not some single dimension story (speaking here of the larger picture about indigenous Australians) that can be ground down into a bite sized chunk so that enlightenment will flow from a series of articles, no matter how well written, in a single post.
I didn't read the links from the post by the way. It sounded like a loon of the outlier variety.
Besides, we fuckin' said we were sorry. Surely that gives us 200 more years of consequences-free misbehaviour.
posted by peacay at 1:45 AM on March 13, 2008
Look, this is not some single dimension story (speaking here of the larger picture about indigenous Australians) that can be ground down into a bite sized chunk so that enlightenment will flow from a series of articles, no matter how well written, in a single post.
I didn't read the links from the post by the way. It sounded like a loon of the outlier variety.
Besides, we fuckin' said we were sorry. Surely that gives us 200 more years of consequences-free misbehaviour.
posted by peacay at 1:45 AM on March 13, 2008
Misrepresentation can't be claimed if the plight is also ignored.
I withdraw that.
But I also don't know if it's true or not.
posted by peacay at 1:51 AM on March 13, 2008
I withdraw that.
But I also don't know if it's true or not.
posted by peacay at 1:51 AM on March 13, 2008
The problem is that nutcases declare for political seats all the time simply so they can get media coverage for their racist (or other nutcase) views. Guy ranting down the pub how all the indigenous population should be exchanged for X-group? No reportage. Bartender suggests he should probably call it a night. Mayoral "candidate" bloviating about same? Woo, here comes the camera!
Obviously, it does become news when such a candidate actually has significant support, but I didn't see that there was an indication of that in this post. I do agree, though, that the subject generally - not necessarily this asshole - deserves greater attention.
posted by taz at 1:55 AM on March 13, 2008
Obviously, it does become news when such a candidate actually has significant support, but I didn't see that there was an indication of that in this post. I do agree, though, that the subject generally - not necessarily this asshole - deserves greater attention.
posted by taz at 1:55 AM on March 13, 2008
My last comment was to LarryC
Yeah - I probably mixed up my own political viewpoint there with the more metatalky aspect of it. I'm not trying to be Hand Wavy. Hence the comment about not being sure.
My main points are :
Native Australian rights are an important thing that are ignored internationally.
Would it be good to get an Australian metafilter member to double check hot-button Australian issues.
posted by seanyboy at 1:56 AM on March 13, 2008
Yeah - I probably mixed up my own political viewpoint there with the more metatalky aspect of it. I'm not trying to be Hand Wavy. Hence the comment about not being sure.
My main points are :
Native Australian rights are an important thing that are ignored internationally.
Would it be good to get an Australian metafilter member to double check hot-button Australian issues.
posted by seanyboy at 1:56 AM on March 13, 2008
seanyboy: I don't think so.
It is a well-known fact around here that similar, undeleted posts provide zero justification and absolutely no precedent for deleted posts. Just because one humanity:FAIL newsclipfilter slips by doesn't mean the one you like should stay too. If people need to know about racism in Australia, they will surely find out some way other than browsing MeFi for the best of the web.
posted by carsonb at 1:59 AM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
It is a well-known fact around here that similar, undeleted posts provide zero justification and absolutely no precedent for deleted posts. Just because one humanity:FAIL newsclipfilter slips by doesn't mean the one you like should stay too. If people need to know about racism in Australia, they will surely find out some way other than browsing MeFi for the best of the web.
posted by carsonb at 1:59 AM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
The ... "We don't do things like that around here" argument.
Classy.
Newsfilter posts are a big part of metafilter. I'm not sure I like it, but it's the case. This isn't about newsfilter, it's about if this one small newsfilter post that was deleted for being parochial is actually parochial.
posted by seanyboy at 2:03 AM on March 13, 2008
Classy.
Newsfilter posts are a big part of metafilter. I'm not sure I like it, but it's the case. This isn't about newsfilter, it's about if this one small newsfilter post that was deleted for being parochial is actually parochial.
posted by seanyboy at 2:03 AM on March 13, 2008
I'd have to disagree there, carsonb - there is a lot of coverage here of U.S. political/social issues, and there is room for posts that address similar aspects of other countries. It's just that such posts need to be up to snuff, and this one really wasn't, in my opinion.
posted by taz at 2:06 AM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by taz at 2:06 AM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
I think that the state of Racial inequality in Australia (With highly contentious policies like AACAP) is drastically misrepresented internationally.
I would agree, although rather than 'misrepresented' I'd probably say something like 'unknown' or 'under-reported' or something.
This wasn't a great post. The subject would have been better served if a lot more context had been given, I think. The truth is that those of us who aren't Australian (or in my case, love the place and kind of wish they were) usually don't know much about the greater arc of the subject of racism in Australia, with regard to aboriginal people and others. Context like Melbourne being the biggest Greek community outside of Greece, for example, (that's not apocryphal, is it?) and the experiences of successive waves of immigrants and their integration into Australian society, and the whole story of the aborigines, would make some interesting reading for a lot of people, with the right links.
Of course, I rarely bother to go through the linkdump encycloposts myself, but, you know, I know a good one when I see it.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:08 AM on March 13, 2008
I would agree, although rather than 'misrepresented' I'd probably say something like 'unknown' or 'under-reported' or something.
This wasn't a great post. The subject would have been better served if a lot more context had been given, I think. The truth is that those of us who aren't Australian (or in my case, love the place and kind of wish they were) usually don't know much about the greater arc of the subject of racism in Australia, with regard to aboriginal people and others. Context like Melbourne being the biggest Greek community outside of Greece, for example, (that's not apocryphal, is it?) and the experiences of successive waves of immigrants and their integration into Australian society, and the whole story of the aborigines, would make some interesting reading for a lot of people, with the right links.
Of course, I rarely bother to go through the linkdump encycloposts myself, but, you know, I know a good one when I see it.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:08 AM on March 13, 2008
seanyboy, funnily enough, the member whose post was deleted, lives in Queensland. On the face of it, that person hasn't been able to present the thing so that it pasts muster here. Just because they are close to the action anyway (or for that matter, that I'm in the same country) doesn't guarantee that the material will be judged properly or presented well. Some (most?) of the worst posts I've seen on Mefi relating to Australia have been posted by Australians.
posted by peacay at 2:14 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by peacay at 2:14 AM on March 13, 2008
re, Greeks in Melbourne - I don't know, but it's pretty much what I hear 'round these parts, too, stav
posted by taz at 2:14 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by taz at 2:14 AM on March 13, 2008
Had this been a San Francisco based "attention grabbing racist" I'd wager the post would have survived.
posted by fire&wings at 2:43 AM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by fire&wings at 2:43 AM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'd be happier if the stated deletion reason "Sorry, this is kind of lame local news" was applied as stringently across the board. It's only my impression, but I seem to recall threads based on even thinner content staying where the location is in the US. I see fire&wings makes a similar point.
posted by Abiezer at 3:14 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by Abiezer at 3:14 AM on March 13, 2008
I think stavrosthewonderchicken has it - it sort of seems fair enough that on what is essentially an American site, posts about political matters outside the US need more background/fleshing out than USNewsFilter posts. (Though this can seem like an irritating double standard for us non-US folk - as fire&wings and Abiezer say, 'lame local news' posts do sometimes stay up, if the lameness is local to the US.)
I suppose the answer is for someone (seanyboy?) to make a post on the topic with more context, and, more importantly, better links.
posted by jack_mo at 3:27 AM on March 13, 2008
I suppose the answer is for someone (seanyboy?) to make a post on the topic with more context, and, more importantly, better links.
posted by jack_mo at 3:27 AM on March 13, 2008
I thought they'd deleted a post about Ferraro, our own recent attention-grabbing racist, but apparently nobody's submitted one.
This wasn't deleted because it's Australian, it was deleted because it's a bad post. It's a thin news story with almost no facts. What useful discussion would happen? Barring some unusual outlier, it would just be a chorus of "Gee, racism is bad". Those who seemed inadequately sincere would be savaged by the Metafilter wolves. Eventually, everyone would get tired and go away, leaving blood in the snow.
Voila! We had the discussion, but we did it in one paragraph.
(any outliers out there with something genuinely different and new to add, please feel free to do so... don't let my snark stop you. :) )
posted by Malor at 3:29 AM on March 13, 2008
This wasn't deleted because it's Australian, it was deleted because it's a bad post. It's a thin news story with almost no facts. What useful discussion would happen? Barring some unusual outlier, it would just be a chorus of "Gee, racism is bad". Those who seemed inadequately sincere would be savaged by the Metafilter wolves. Eventually, everyone would get tired and go away, leaving blood in the snow.
Voila! We had the discussion, but we did it in one paragraph.
(any outliers out there with something genuinely different and new to add, please feel free to do so... don't let my snark stop you. :) )
posted by Malor at 3:29 AM on March 13, 2008
I read the post, and wanted to comment on the issue, but three links to news.com.au doesn't make a foundation for anything good. There is a great post about indigenous racism in Australia out there to come, maybe framed around other cultures who have been more successful (Bueller?) but this wasn't it. The outcome would have been superficial comments and a skip over from anyone not really involved.
posted by bystander at 3:30 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by bystander at 3:30 AM on March 13, 2008
Let's just face facts: mathowie hates Australians and considers them a kind of inferior subhuman species, worthy only of contempt and derision. You know, like Kiwis.
That's why this post was deleted, and why there is a conspiracy of silence on MeFi about the fact that Kangaroo-based travel is the only sensible solution to cutting transport-related carbon emissions in developed economies. I haven't seen a single post on that topic - have you? - and the only possible reason is that, deep within his underground lair, Matt is systematically deleting everyone who even alludes to the fact that simply slippin' yourself into Skippy's pouch and yelling "coo-ee" results in a warm, comfortable ride to and/or from the mall, and if you suck hard on the teats within said pouch you can ingest a free milk-based drink while you bounce, bounce, bounce hither and thither.
So why does Matt denounce the bounce? And why must he pounce when bounce is announced? I can't answer those questions, but when the bouce-o-lution comes and the old order is swept away, I wouldn't be surprised if this Matt Howie guy gets "accidentally" bounced on - if you get my bounce.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 3:53 AM on March 13, 2008
That's why this post was deleted, and why there is a conspiracy of silence on MeFi about the fact that Kangaroo-based travel is the only sensible solution to cutting transport-related carbon emissions in developed economies. I haven't seen a single post on that topic - have you? - and the only possible reason is that, deep within his underground lair, Matt is systematically deleting everyone who even alludes to the fact that simply slippin' yourself into Skippy's pouch and yelling "coo-ee" results in a warm, comfortable ride to and/or from the mall, and if you suck hard on the teats within said pouch you can ingest a free milk-based drink while you bounce, bounce, bounce hither and thither.
So why does Matt denounce the bounce? And why must he pounce when bounce is announced? I can't answer those questions, but when the bouce-o-lution comes and the old order is swept away, I wouldn't be surprised if this Matt Howie guy gets "accidentally" bounced on - if you get my bounce.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 3:53 AM on March 13, 2008
You'll come to roo that comment, quid.
posted by Abiezer at 3:57 AM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Abiezer at 3:57 AM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
Well well well, if it isn't Abiezer - who, when once a jolly swagman, camped by my billabong, under the shade of my coolabah tree! I remember how we sang as we watched and waited 'til your billy boiled, Abeizer. And then you put on that dress and said "call me Matilda" and we waltzed, waltzed, waltzed through the night and then I stuffed you in the tuckerbag, so to speak.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 4:27 AM on March 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by the quidnunc kid at 4:27 AM on March 13, 2008 [3 favorites]
I'd be happier if the stated deletion reason "Sorry, this is kind of lame local news" was applied as stringently across the board.
Perhaps if the Abos had a Kosher deli?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:36 AM on March 13, 2008
Perhaps if the Abos had a Kosher deli?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:36 AM on March 13, 2008
I am an Australian. I’m in Queensland and I saw that in the local news this morning and went meh. The post was pretty minimal and I agree it should have been deleted. I think you would get a much broader picture if you include the Elder who became incredibly ill at a Queensland University bus-stop, and lay ignored in her own vomit because the Australian students assumed she was drunk. You might talk about the girl from Cape York who was gang-raped more than once, but who’s attackers (aboriginal like her) received a lenient sentence because the (female) judge was convinced that the victim (a ten year old girl) had asked for it, and that it was reasonable sexual exploration. Then there’s the Prime Minister’s apology , the previous prime minister’s refusal, and the deaths in custody, including that of a man on Palm Island who was kicked so hard that his liver split in two. The officer was deemed not culpable. Then, you might have a picture of how it is for indigenous people in Queensland, but it still doesn’t convey a large portion of the nation’s contempt and disregard for the first inhabitants of this land. Previously. Also.
Then, you might have a good fpp on the topic.
posted by b33j at 5:21 AM on March 13, 2008 [9 favorites]
Then, you might have a good fpp on the topic.
posted by b33j at 5:21 AM on March 13, 2008 [9 favorites]
It was all a linguistic confusion quid. I never realised that when you said we should be rooting for a better tomorrow it would come to that.
posted by Abiezer at 5:44 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by Abiezer at 5:44 AM on March 13, 2008
And when you offered to "come the raw prawn", Abiezer, I should never have "got a big dog up you". Now my every galah is flaming and - s'truth! - my dinky has died.
Yet these are the risks one faces when one's land is girt by - of all things - sea.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 5:54 AM on March 13, 2008
Yet these are the risks one faces when one's land is girt by - of all things - sea.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 5:54 AM on March 13, 2008
The post to me reads and sounds way too axegrindy, and it's very low on information.
But most importantly, it was written by one of those Australian sheepbuggerers, and those posts must be deleted with extreme prejudice.
posted by dw at 6:17 AM on March 13, 2008
But most importantly, it was written by one of those Australian sheepbuggerers, and those posts must be deleted with extreme prejudice.
posted by dw at 6:17 AM on March 13, 2008
Context like Melbourne being the biggest Greek community outside of Greece, for example, (that's not apocryphal, is it?)
The same is said about Astoria in NYC. I guess we'll have to organize a headcount.
seanyboy, I'm all for meaty posts on topics like this, but this wasn't one. We've had posts on the topic before and will again, so it's not like this was MeFi's One Chance. As Malor said, it would just be a chorus of "Gee, racism is bad". Can we just take that as given and move on?
posted by languagehat at 6:27 AM on March 13, 2008
The same is said about Astoria in NYC. I guess we'll have to organize a headcount.
seanyboy, I'm all for meaty posts on topics like this, but this wasn't one. We've had posts on the topic before and will again, so it's not like this was MeFi's One Chance. As Malor said, it would just be a chorus of "Gee, racism is bad". Can we just take that as given and move on?
posted by languagehat at 6:27 AM on March 13, 2008
Combine this with the story about a group of Aboriginal life-saving trainees being kicked out of a hostel in Alice Springs a few days ago because they were "scaring the tourists" by simply being there, and it might have had a bit more meat. I've been waiting for a post covering these two stories so I could go apeshit, but have to admit I lacked the courage to try them out on Metafilter myself. Because I hate to post newsfilter. But damn, do I love to comment on it.
True, the story in the original link was kinda lame. Well, it is outrageous, but it's only one guy, and there are bigger fish to fry out there. But then, I see a post about an obscure Oklahoma legislator bitching about gays has hung around, so it would be nice if someone could point out the difference, please?
posted by Jimbob at 6:36 AM on March 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
True, the story in the original link was kinda lame. Well, it is outrageous, but it's only one guy, and there are bigger fish to fry out there. But then, I see a post about an obscure Oklahoma legislator bitching about gays has hung around, so it would be nice if someone could point out the difference, please?
posted by Jimbob at 6:36 AM on March 13, 2008 [2 favorites]
Had this been a San Francisco based "attention grabbing racist" I'd wager the post would have survived.
Hell, if this had been a New York-based attention grabbing hipster blogging about how much he spent on a new pair of sunglasses, I'd wager the post would have survived.
Which isn't necessarily a bad thing per se, its just an indication of the demographics of the site. Like it or not, news stories about places that are farther off the radar of a majority of the site's members have to live up to a somewhat higher standard.
posted by googly at 6:42 AM on March 13, 2008
Hell, if this had been a New York-based attention grabbing hipster blogging about how much he spent on a new pair of sunglasses, I'd wager the post would have survived.
Which isn't necessarily a bad thing per se, its just an indication of the demographics of the site. Like it or not, news stories about places that are farther off the radar of a majority of the site's members have to live up to a somewhat higher standard.
posted by googly at 6:42 AM on March 13, 2008
It was a weak post, and defending a weak post because the topic or potential conversation is interesting isn't a great gameplan. We don't want weak posts, right?
There was no context. The poster was a local—it wasn't local news in the abstract sense of "happening in some town somewhere" but in the literal sense of "happening near where the poster lives". As far as I can tell, that (sure, understandable) compromising factor is probably a big part of why they even bothered to make the post as they did. Hell, two of the three links were to the same content, just in different presentations (story vs comment view).
It was a poorly constructed local-news post as presented. If there's a much better post to be made (e.g. what b33j ran down above), super, but the post we got was not very good. Not very good stuff stands a good chance of getting nixed.
Had this been a San Francisco based "attention grabbing racist" I'd wager the post would have survived.
Had it been this thin of an SF "omg racist" post, I'd wager I'd kill it with fire. We really do kill thin news posts, thin local news posts in particular; while I'm positive someone could dig back through the archives and find genuinely as-bad posts that didn't get deleted, I know for a fact that digging through the deletion history they'd find ones that got cut.
seanyboy mentioned the Sally Kern post. I'm not in love with it, because it seems like a recipe for kind of an ugly thread (and there's been some obnoxious borderline stuff in it, in fact, taking a glance this morning), but as a post it's a whole hell of a lot more substantial than the one we're talking about here. As far as trying to suss out what does and doesn't happen deletion-wise, it helps to compare like with like.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:45 AM on March 13, 2008
There was no context. The poster was a local—it wasn't local news in the abstract sense of "happening in some town somewhere" but in the literal sense of "happening near where the poster lives". As far as I can tell, that (sure, understandable) compromising factor is probably a big part of why they even bothered to make the post as they did. Hell, two of the three links were to the same content, just in different presentations (story vs comment view).
It was a poorly constructed local-news post as presented. If there's a much better post to be made (e.g. what b33j ran down above), super, but the post we got was not very good. Not very good stuff stands a good chance of getting nixed.
Had this been a San Francisco based "attention grabbing racist" I'd wager the post would have survived.
Had it been this thin of an SF "omg racist" post, I'd wager I'd kill it with fire. We really do kill thin news posts, thin local news posts in particular; while I'm positive someone could dig back through the archives and find genuinely as-bad posts that didn't get deleted, I know for a fact that digging through the deletion history they'd find ones that got cut.
seanyboy mentioned the Sally Kern post. I'm not in love with it, because it seems like a recipe for kind of an ugly thread (and there's been some obnoxious borderline stuff in it, in fact, taking a glance this morning), but as a post it's a whole hell of a lot more substantial than the one we're talking about here. As far as trying to suss out what does and doesn't happen deletion-wise, it helps to compare like with like.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:45 AM on March 13, 2008
c.f. Sorry, this is kind of lame local news centered around an attention grabbing xtian homophobe
posted by Sparx at 6:50 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by Sparx at 6:50 AM on March 13, 2008
The post was three thin news links. Actually it was two because the second and third were the same. It was a bad post. Someone wants to make a better post about the same topic (without it being some stunt post) please have at it. sneakin's post is better and links to more relevant content, but it's still not going so great in the comments and has an axe-grindy tone to it.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:14 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:14 AM on March 13, 2008
I honestly have no opinion about whether the Kern post is right for Metafilter, but I do think that an elected representative spewing bigot hate is more newsworthy than a nobody who just enters a race to get attention for his/her bigot hate. This guy in Queensland has no political background, prospects, or supporters at all, as far as I can tell. From here:
He acknowledged that his views may not be widely shared in the community.
"As a racist, I've got a membership of one ... me."
Mr Wise also said he was too old to be mayor and did not expect to win the position on Saturday.
"I'm 15 years too late for this job and even if I could get my 25 families, I'm not prepared to put in the hard yards and fall off the perch to make a success of it," he said.
He's just a random creep. But I'm just looking at the page title here, and I think seanyboy misread that he was actually mayor, instead of just a candidate?
posted by taz at 7:17 AM on March 13, 2008
He acknowledged that his views may not be widely shared in the community.
"As a racist, I've got a membership of one ... me."
Mr Wise also said he was too old to be mayor and did not expect to win the position on Saturday.
"I'm 15 years too late for this job and even if I could get my 25 families, I'm not prepared to put in the hard yards and fall off the perch to make a success of it," he said.
He's just a random creep. But I'm just looking at the page title here, and I think seanyboy misread that he was actually mayor, instead of just a candidate?
posted by taz at 7:17 AM on March 13, 2008
Whoops - I didn't read carefully enough to see the word 'candidate' either, having gone from here to the deleted post.
[Snark....withdraw!
Advance....other Snark!]
Crikey. A racist Australian. That's new.
posted by Sparx at 7:36 AM on March 13, 2008
[Snark....withdraw!
Advance....other Snark!]
Crikey. A racist Australian. That's new.
posted by Sparx at 7:36 AM on March 13, 2008
Crikey. A racist Australian. That's new.
How is insulting the nationality of a bunch of people in this thread remotely helpful?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:40 AM on March 13, 2008
How is insulting the nationality of a bunch of people in this thread remotely helpful?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:40 AM on March 13, 2008
I know it's an important subject. I've been to Australia and witnessed some pretty obvious anti-aboriginal attitudes from lots of whites there. A good post could certainly be crafted around the issues, but this one wasn't it.
I deleted it because it's a short news story about a local mayor race done by a guy that is on par with Fred Phelps (the "god hates fags" attention whore). It's a teeny local news story with crazy comments from locals attached to that story, and one more older news clip about the same guy.
People like Fred Phelps and this dingbat mayor candidate are the kind of people you don't dignify with a response, because that's all they are seeking: free publicity for their stupid ideas.
There's really nothing much to go on here, it's just a tiny local mayor race, and it's about someone that doesn't deserve a bigger platform.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:01 AM on March 13, 2008
I deleted it because it's a short news story about a local mayor race done by a guy that is on par with Fred Phelps (the "god hates fags" attention whore). It's a teeny local news story with crazy comments from locals attached to that story, and one more older news clip about the same guy.
People like Fred Phelps and this dingbat mayor candidate are the kind of people you don't dignify with a response, because that's all they are seeking: free publicity for their stupid ideas.
There's really nothing much to go on here, it's just a tiny local mayor race, and it's about someone that doesn't deserve a bigger platform.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:01 AM on March 13, 2008
[CITATION NEEDED]
[MORE DETAILS NEEDED]
[BREAD KNEADED]
posted by blue_beetle at 8:12 AM on March 13, 2008
[MORE DETAILS NEEDED]
[BREAD KNEADED]
posted by blue_beetle at 8:12 AM on March 13, 2008
I've been to Australia and witnessed some pretty obvious anti-aboriginal attitudes from lots of whites there.
Another 2 week holiday authority? You do realise that's fairly inflammatory don't you? Throwaway lines like you've posited here don't really foster discussion so much as they paint a situation with an inherently prejudiced brush. There's no context. Where did you go, who did you meet, what did you see or hear and what are the chances are that it was at least partly as a result of luck that your encounters were unimpressive (or impressively negative, as seems the case).
I'm sure as hell not saying that there's no racism here. But I would urge caution against throwing out blanket statements based on your own small sample space. It reminds me of the discussions when hospitals come up and people come out of the crevices with their negative stories.
posted by peacay at 8:18 AM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
Another 2 week holiday authority? You do realise that's fairly inflammatory don't you? Throwaway lines like you've posited here don't really foster discussion so much as they paint a situation with an inherently prejudiced brush. There's no context. Where did you go, who did you meet, what did you see or hear and what are the chances are that it was at least partly as a result of luck that your encounters were unimpressive (or impressively negative, as seems the case).
I'm sure as hell not saying that there's no racism here. But I would urge caution against throwing out blanket statements based on your own small sample space. It reminds me of the discussions when hospitals come up and people come out of the crevices with their negative stories.
posted by peacay at 8:18 AM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
peacay, I didn't say every australian I met was like that, "lots" was maybe an exaggeration. I heard three people on different occasions in different settings mention things about "those lazy drunk aboriginals" without any provocation. I mention it because seanyboy seems to be implying that since the moderators are all american we're overlooking this big problem that deserves to be seen on MeFi.
My point is that local political races are easy targets for outrageous people. It's a position without power, so any crackpot can stump for their insane ideas. Two days ago, my local state rep in congress said that all gay people should shut up about special rights and that gay people deserve it when they get beat up or murdered because it's "an equal and opposite reaction to them pushing back on others". I don't want to make a post about the guy because he's an insane local crackpot and he's not even up for an election.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:25 AM on March 13, 2008
My point is that local political races are easy targets for outrageous people. It's a position without power, so any crackpot can stump for their insane ideas. Two days ago, my local state rep in congress said that all gay people should shut up about special rights and that gay people deserve it when they get beat up or murdered because it's "an equal and opposite reaction to them pushing back on others". I don't want to make a post about the guy because he's an insane local crackpot and he's not even up for an election.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:25 AM on March 13, 2008
Another 2 week holiday authority? You do realise that's fairly inflammatory don't you? Throwaway lines like you've posited here don't really foster discussion so much as they paint a situation with an inherently prejudiced brush. There's no context. Where did you go, who did you meet, what did you see or hear and what are the chances are that it was at least partly as a result of luck that your encounters were unimpressive (or impressively negative, as seems the case).
I'm sure as hell not saying that there's no racism here. But I would urge caution against throwing out blanket statements based on your own small sample space. It reminds me of the discussions when hospitals come up and people come out of the crevices with their negative stories.
This is a ridiculous notion. Are you telling me that if I had gone to South Africa during the days of Apartheid for a two week holiday, I would have, what, no context for the racism - for the legal segregation? That somehow context would have justified it?
You see racism, you see it. Context is an excuse.
posted by kbanas at 8:25 AM on March 13, 2008
"As Malor said, it would just be a chorus of "Gee, racism is bad". Can we just take that as given and move on?"
At the recent Kara Walker show at the Hammer in LA, my ma said, "Yes, we get it. Racism is bad. Sexism is bad. Can I just get my hand stamped?"
posted by klangklangston at 8:27 AM on March 13, 2008
At the recent Kara Walker show at the Hammer in LA, my ma said, "Yes, we get it. Racism is bad. Sexism is bad. Can I just get my hand stamped?"
posted by klangklangston at 8:27 AM on March 13, 2008
kbanas, so you're comparing Australia to South Africa under apartheid? Thanks mate. I didn't say context by way of suggesting loopholes or justifications. It's so we understand what people are actually talking about. There's a lot of difference between telling a poor taste joke and excluding people from work and both can have racist causes.
Matt, I knew you didn't say that with any malicious intentions at all. I was only trying to get the point across, obliquely or poorly perhaps, that discussion of Aboriginal Australia is always complex. You heard 3 things and maybe 45 good things happened that you didn't hear.
posted by peacay at 8:38 AM on March 13, 2008
Matt, I knew you didn't say that with any malicious intentions at all. I was only trying to get the point across, obliquely or poorly perhaps, that discussion of Aboriginal Australia is always complex. You heard 3 things and maybe 45 good things happened that you didn't hear.
posted by peacay at 8:38 AM on March 13, 2008
If you don't want to give a platform to insignificant local crackpots, then this post about an Oklahoma state representative should be deleted as well.
posted by jason's_planet at 8:38 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by jason's_planet at 8:38 AM on March 13, 2008
gyofwdu.
posted by Dave Faris at 8:50 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by Dave Faris at 8:50 AM on March 13, 2008
jason's_planet, that post was already discussed above. The differences were: wacko candidate vs actual elected official and better rounded-out links rather than two weak news links.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:52 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:52 AM on March 13, 2008
I'd be happier if the stated deletion reason "Sorry, this is kind of lame local news" was applied as stringently across the board.
I wouldn't. That's because equating 'lame' to 'garbage' is offensive on the face of it, and is equivalent to 'gay' = crap.
Please stop using that as a deletion reason, Matt. Cortex is looking for better wording, could you do do too, please?
posted by dash_slot- at 8:56 AM on March 13, 2008
I wouldn't. That's because equating 'lame' to 'garbage' is offensive on the face of it, and is equivalent to 'gay' = crap.
Please stop using that as a deletion reason, Matt. Cortex is looking for better wording, could you do do too, please?
posted by dash_slot- at 8:56 AM on March 13, 2008
seanyboy wrote...
I don't think so.
sparx wrote...
Sorry, this is kind of lame local news centered around an attention grabbing
jason's_planet wrote...
this post about an Oklahoma state representative
Anyone else?
posted by tkolar at 8:58 AM on March 13, 2008
I don't think so.
sparx wrote...
Sorry, this is kind of lame local news centered around an attention grabbing
jason's_planet wrote...
this post about an Oklahoma state representative
Anyone else?
posted by tkolar at 8:58 AM on March 13, 2008
You do realise that's fairly inflammatory don't you?
it's really not. if he had said "I met some white racists in australia so I know that australian whites are all racists" would be inflammatory. All he said was that he knew it was an issue in australia and in his time there he'd heard some unfortunate things said about aboriginals by australian whites. it's directly comparable to me saying "I went to school in upstate new york and heard some local townsfolk say some pretty shitty things about minorities." It's an observation. chill yourself.
I swear to God, this is what they're talking about when the mods say that they're constantly in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position around here.
posted by shmegegge at 8:59 AM on March 13, 2008
it's really not. if he had said "I met some white racists in australia so I know that australian whites are all racists" would be inflammatory. All he said was that he knew it was an issue in australia and in his time there he'd heard some unfortunate things said about aboriginals by australian whites. it's directly comparable to me saying "I went to school in upstate new york and heard some local townsfolk say some pretty shitty things about minorities." It's an observation. chill yourself.
I swear to God, this is what they're talking about when the mods say that they're constantly in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position around here.
posted by shmegegge at 8:59 AM on March 13, 2008
If you don't want to give a platform to insignificant local crackpots, then this post about an Oklahoma state representative should be deleted as well.
The platform we give these crackpots is more like the platform in the dunk-a-jerk booth at Coney Island. Only the target is much bigger and we're throwing basketballs.
Of course, that makes the commenters into sweaty kids beefing up the boardwalk, failing to impress onlookers with our rotation and pitch speed, or out-of-town gapers with enough beer in us to throw an oversize ball at an oversize target but too much beer in us to aim, squeeze the trigger, and Shoot the Freak.
Splash!
posted by breezeway at 8:59 AM on March 13, 2008
The platform we give these crackpots is more like the platform in the dunk-a-jerk booth at Coney Island. Only the target is much bigger and we're throwing basketballs.
Of course, that makes the commenters into sweaty kids beefing up the boardwalk, failing to impress onlookers with our rotation and pitch speed, or out-of-town gapers with enough beer in us to throw an oversize ball at an oversize target but too much beer in us to aim, squeeze the trigger, and Shoot the Freak.
Splash!
posted by breezeway at 8:59 AM on March 13, 2008
waitwaitwait. are we not allowed to say lame anymore?
posted by shmegegge at 9:00 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by shmegegge at 9:00 AM on March 13, 2008
Why don't we just delete everything and be done with it?
posted by Dave Faris at 9:01 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by Dave Faris at 9:01 AM on March 13, 2008
Cunnamulla, population 1600.
Oklahoma House District 84, population ~30,000.
No, really. It consists of the west side of Oklahoma City, population 450,000.
posted by dw at 9:04 AM on March 13, 2008
Oklahoma House District 84, population ~30,000.
No, really. It consists of the west side of Oklahoma City, population 450,000.
posted by dw at 9:04 AM on March 13, 2008
Apologies if I seemed to be tarring all Australians with the same brush. I applaud their recent change of government and the moves they have made to redress the balance, but I'd be lying if I didn't think mock surprise at the discovery of a racist Australian running for Mayor somewhere was wildly innapropriate*.
*because as a country it: was condemned by the UN for its institutional racism in 2000 (the first developed country to be so) and widely cricticised by the same in 2005; voted for the Howard government's campaigns based on racist xenophobia; banned UN human rights officials during the Olympics; exercised sub-Geneva Convention treatment of refugees, participated in the Cronulla riots (I could go on)... which seems to point to both institutional and casual local racism, and not just in the isolated parts of the country.
But I could be wrong. It happens.
posted by Sparx at 9:11 AM on March 13, 2008
*because as a country it: was condemned by the UN for its institutional racism in 2000 (the first developed country to be so) and widely cricticised by the same in 2005; voted for the Howard government's campaigns based on racist xenophobia; banned UN human rights officials during the Olympics; exercised sub-Geneva Convention treatment of refugees, participated in the Cronulla riots (I could go on)... which seems to point to both institutional and casual local racism, and not just in the isolated parts of the country.
But I could be wrong. It happens.
posted by Sparx at 9:11 AM on March 13, 2008
shmegegge, I am always happy to hear your opinion, honestly. But the way the sentence was laid down didn't need any comparisons as you provided to judge its effect. I fully accept that there is a continuum of reactions and I'm closer to the sensitive end. I understand why you or anyone else might read it differently than me but I'm suggesting that the way you parse it is not the only way. You see simple observation, I see another piece of hearsay on the pile. I'm not angry but yeah, I'll grant that this general topic puts me on the defensive. That may be the result of a lot of o/seas travel where the "aboriginal question" always comes up and it's a situation where you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't" ... get into a discussion of it that is.
posted by peacay at 9:20 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by peacay at 9:20 AM on March 13, 2008
because as a country it [..] participated in the Cronulla riots
No. Some pisshead wankers that live near me (I live in Cronulla) participated in a riot. The country didn't.
posted by peacay at 9:23 AM on March 13, 2008
No. Some pisshead wankers that live near me (I live in Cronulla) participated in a riot. The country didn't.
posted by peacay at 9:23 AM on March 13, 2008
No. Some pisshead wankers that live near me (I live in Cronulla) participated in a riot. The country didn't.
Oh it might as well have been the whole country. You've got, what, 27 citizens and Cocker Spaniel down there?
posted by tkolar at 9:42 AM on March 13, 2008
Oh it might as well have been the whole country. You've got, what, 27 citizens and Cocker Spaniel down there?
posted by tkolar at 9:42 AM on March 13, 2008
I'm suggesting that the way you parse it is not the only way.
fair enough.
You see simple observation, I see another piece of hearsay on the pile.
so... I guess what I'm wondering at this point is "is this hearsay because it's likely not true?" Is mathowie exaggerating or something? What exactly is it about this that's so bothersome?
Here's another for instance: Right now americans travelling abroad are likely to hear about everything the country is doing wrong on the world stage. now, some of us take it very personally and kind of represent the country as badly as our administration does. some of us just nod and say "I know I know. I don't like it any more than you do." to get a little more detailed about it, were I to travel abroad, I imagine that I'd probably act like the latter if someone says "America is doing some pretty horrible things right now" and get a bit hotter under the collar if someone starts saying "you fucking americans are all alike! you're all such bigshot asshole blahblahblah..." the distinction, to my mind, is between making an observation which - even though it may add more fuel to the fire of america's bad rep - has some obvious merit, and simply tarring an entire people with the brush of "american asshole," which is to my mind rather unfair.
I suppose what I'm getting at is that I can see why you'd be upset if you read mathowie's comment to be tarring australians with a racist brush, but I'm not sure I can see why you'd think that's what he's doing. so, in the name of approaching the discussion more civilly than my last comment managed to, I guess I'm asking for an elaboration on what you're seeing, here.
posted by shmegegge at 9:44 AM on March 13, 2008
fair enough.
You see simple observation, I see another piece of hearsay on the pile.
so... I guess what I'm wondering at this point is "is this hearsay because it's likely not true?" Is mathowie exaggerating or something? What exactly is it about this that's so bothersome?
Here's another for instance: Right now americans travelling abroad are likely to hear about everything the country is doing wrong on the world stage. now, some of us take it very personally and kind of represent the country as badly as our administration does. some of us just nod and say "I know I know. I don't like it any more than you do." to get a little more detailed about it, were I to travel abroad, I imagine that I'd probably act like the latter if someone says "America is doing some pretty horrible things right now" and get a bit hotter under the collar if someone starts saying "you fucking americans are all alike! you're all such bigshot asshole blahblahblah..." the distinction, to my mind, is between making an observation which - even though it may add more fuel to the fire of america's bad rep - has some obvious merit, and simply tarring an entire people with the brush of "american asshole," which is to my mind rather unfair.
I suppose what I'm getting at is that I can see why you'd be upset if you read mathowie's comment to be tarring australians with a racist brush, but I'm not sure I can see why you'd think that's what he's doing. so, in the name of approaching the discussion more civilly than my last comment managed to, I guess I'm asking for an elaboration on what you're seeing, here.
posted by shmegegge at 9:44 AM on March 13, 2008
Sorry, "*a* Cocker Spaniel". It's doubtful the country could support more than one.
After all it's not like you have millions of people living in many distinct areas, all with their own quirks and problems. I mean, categorizing all of Australia based on incidents that occurred in one part isn't anything *at all* like categorizing the entire U.S. based on what happens in the deep south.
It's silly, really. Carry on, you racist bastards. Oh, and say hi to Bruce for me.
posted by tkolar at 9:49 AM on March 13, 2008
After all it's not like you have millions of people living in many distinct areas, all with their own quirks and problems. I mean, categorizing all of Australia based on incidents that occurred in one part isn't anything *at all* like categorizing the entire U.S. based on what happens in the deep south.
It's silly, really. Carry on, you racist bastards. Oh, and say hi to Bruce for me.
posted by tkolar at 9:49 AM on March 13, 2008
See, if one of the aborigines had been blogging it on an iphone, or twittering with an explicit CC some rights reserved sigil, *then* it would have been the best of the web.
posted by meehawl at 9:51 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by meehawl at 9:51 AM on March 13, 2008
shmegegge said...
All he said was that he knew it was an issue in australia and in his time there he'd heard some unfortunate things said about aboriginals by australian whites.
By LOTS of australian whites, painting a picture of widespread racism.
"it's directly comparable to me saying "I went to school in upstate new york and heard some local townsfolk say some pretty shitty things about minorities."
Now say, "I went to school in new york and heard LOTS of New Yorkers say pretty shitty things about minorities".
Different picture? (Hmm, actually New York was probably a bad example here.)
posted by tkolar at 10:03 AM on March 13, 2008
All he said was that he knew it was an issue in australia and in his time there he'd heard some unfortunate things said about aboriginals by australian whites.
By LOTS of australian whites, painting a picture of widespread racism.
"it's directly comparable to me saying "I went to school in upstate new york and heard some local townsfolk say some pretty shitty things about minorities."
Now say, "I went to school in new york and heard LOTS of New Yorkers say pretty shitty things about minorities".
Different picture? (Hmm, actually New York was probably a bad example here.)
posted by tkolar at 10:03 AM on March 13, 2008
I want to say that in general, for every post that I think should not get deleted but is, there are a bakers dozen that do.
The Nazi sidebar still chaps my arse, it's like the flip side of David Horowitz, but it will be out of my view by weeks end, and like pert much everyone here, I have the crush on jessamyn, so it isn't personal)
I have the monkeyscript that shows deleted posts, and I gotta say, M, C and J do an excellent, non-biased job with this. Consistent and fair.
The post in question, while important to a few thousand, sucked for the world at large. However, seanyboy, I'd like to see you build a solid post on this issue (serious, not snarking) and I'll bet you such a post would stay, and generate some profitable comments.
posted by dawson at 10:07 AM on March 13, 2008
The Nazi sidebar still chaps my arse, it's like the flip side of David Horowitz, but it will be out of my view by weeks end, and like pert much everyone here, I have the crush on jessamyn, so it isn't personal)
I have the monkeyscript that shows deleted posts, and I gotta say, M, C and J do an excellent, non-biased job with this. Consistent and fair.
The post in question, while important to a few thousand, sucked for the world at large. However, seanyboy, I'd like to see you build a solid post on this issue (serious, not snarking) and I'll bet you such a post would stay, and generate some profitable comments.
posted by dawson at 10:07 AM on March 13, 2008
I know it's an important subject. I've been to Australia and witnessed some pretty obvious anti-aboriginal attitudes from lots of whites there. A good post could certainly be crafted around the issues, but this one wasn't it.
The full quote is just saying "yes, I know racism in Australia is a important issue. I observed casual racism while I was there." Unless you're really trying to call mathowie a racist, can we please try to be a little less "I see sekrit racism in your subtle language choices!" and a little more "how can we talk about these issues in a way that everyone can contribute without being assholes to each other"?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:08 AM on March 13, 2008
The full quote is just saying "yes, I know racism in Australia is a important issue. I observed casual racism while I was there." Unless you're really trying to call mathowie a racist, can we please try to be a little less "I see sekrit racism in your subtle language choices!" and a little more "how can we talk about these issues in a way that everyone can contribute without being assholes to each other"?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:08 AM on March 13, 2008
"I wouldn't. That's because equating 'lame' to 'garbage' is offensive on the face of it, and is equivalent to 'gay' = crap.
Please stop using that as a deletion reason, Matt. Cortex is looking for better wording, could you do do too, please?"
Also, "idiot" is pejorative to those not involved in politics. And dork implies that a penis is something to be ashamed of.
And won't someone think of the stupids, and how it's not their fault?
posted by klangklangston at 10:11 AM on March 13, 2008
Please stop using that as a deletion reason, Matt. Cortex is looking for better wording, could you do do too, please?"
Also, "idiot" is pejorative to those not involved in politics. And dork implies that a penis is something to be ashamed of.
And won't someone think of the stupids, and how it's not their fault?
posted by klangklangston at 10:11 AM on March 13, 2008
Now say, "I went to school in new york and heard LOTS of New Yorkers say pretty shitty things about minorities".
Different picture? (Hmm, actually New York was probably a bad example here.)
yeah. but then, so might australia be. is it possible to hear lots of whites saying pretty shitty things about aboriginals in australia? it's certainly possible to hear lots of whites saying pretty shitty things about minorities in new york, especially upstate.
posted by shmegegge at 10:15 AM on March 13, 2008
Different picture? (Hmm, actually New York was probably a bad example here.)
yeah. but then, so might australia be. is it possible to hear lots of whites saying pretty shitty things about aboriginals in australia? it's certainly possible to hear lots of whites saying pretty shitty things about minorities in new york, especially upstate.
posted by shmegegge at 10:15 AM on March 13, 2008
Oh I've found myself empathising with Americans a few times when they've been had the whole weight of the US foreign policy dumped on them as if they were individually responsible. One drunken Irish guy I remember in particular was outrageously over the top rude to this group of (really really great) guys I met on a long train trip, basically screaming abuse and blaming them for GWB and every other US fuckup. I admired how calm they remained actually.
It's not that I read or suggested that Matt was tarring everyone. It's just that his quick way of addressing this meta post was to say "I was there and yeah, I saw lots of racism", something he slightly retracted when I raised my hand.
I object to the generalisation from people that have only had some slight direct knowledge. It presents the topic in an inherently negative light. It's not saying "Oh yeah, Australia is a fuckin' racist as shit country" but it's another person chiming in with a negative story. It was an aside and as I said above, I know Matt didn't mean anything offensive by it, but it's another stick on the bonfire, it contributes to the shorthand association of Oz=racism without it having flowed from any deeper discussion or context.
[look, it's very very late here and maybe I haven't got the residual brainpower to outline my thinking perfectly. As much as indigenous Australians are born with a chip on their shoulders with respect to the history of the way their forebears (and contemporary relatives) have been and are being treated, so to do we whitefellas have our own chip that relates to embarrassment, regret and difficulty working out how to make things better. It just makes this slowly evolving process that little bit more taxing or the somesuch when the peanuts are thrown from the world gallery. This thing is complex. Very very very fucking complex. It can't be reduced down to one sentence caricatures/generalisations and the like. Now to bed.]
posted by peacay at 10:15 AM on March 13, 2008
It's not that I read or suggested that Matt was tarring everyone. It's just that his quick way of addressing this meta post was to say "I was there and yeah, I saw lots of racism", something he slightly retracted when I raised my hand.
I object to the generalisation from people that have only had some slight direct knowledge. It presents the topic in an inherently negative light. It's not saying "Oh yeah, Australia is a fuckin' racist as shit country" but it's another person chiming in with a negative story. It was an aside and as I said above, I know Matt didn't mean anything offensive by it, but it's another stick on the bonfire, it contributes to the shorthand association of Oz=racism without it having flowed from any deeper discussion or context.
[look, it's very very late here and maybe I haven't got the residual brainpower to outline my thinking perfectly. As much as indigenous Australians are born with a chip on their shoulders with respect to the history of the way their forebears (and contemporary relatives) have been and are being treated, so to do we whitefellas have our own chip that relates to embarrassment, regret and difficulty working out how to make things better. It just makes this slowly evolving process that little bit more taxing or the somesuch when the peanuts are thrown from the world gallery. This thing is complex. Very very very fucking complex. It can't be reduced down to one sentence caricatures/generalisations and the like. Now to bed.]
posted by peacay at 10:15 AM on March 13, 2008
jessamny wrote...
can we please try to be a little less "I see sekrit racism in your subtle language choices!"
I thought we were being "Yourz paintin' with a broad brush where a finer one would be morz appropriate".
"how can we talk about these issues in a way that everyone can contribute without being assholes to each other"?
Well, we could perhaps withdraw the idea that Australia has an Apartheid system in place. That might be a start.
posted by tkolar at 10:22 AM on March 13, 2008
can we please try to be a little less "I see sekrit racism in your subtle language choices!"
I thought we were being "Yourz paintin' with a broad brush where a finer one would be morz appropriate".
"how can we talk about these issues in a way that everyone can contribute without being assholes to each other"?
Well, we could perhaps withdraw the idea that Australia has an Apartheid system in place. That might be a start.
posted by tkolar at 10:22 AM on March 13, 2008
look, it's very very late here and maybe I haven't got the residual brainpower to outline my thinking perfectly.
nah, you made it pretty clear. I'll shut up, now. at least about this. you still have Muriel's Wedding to apologize for, though.
posted by shmegegge at 10:23 AM on March 13, 2008
nah, you made it pretty clear. I'll shut up, now. at least about this. you still have Muriel's Wedding to apologize for, though.
posted by shmegegge at 10:23 AM on March 13, 2008
is it possible to hear lots of whites saying pretty shitty things about aboriginals in australia?
I'm sure it is if you find the right little town or hang out in skinhead bars. And I'm sure that you can find at least a few people in any random crowd of Australians.
So yeah, if you went looking I'm sure you could hear lots of whites say lots of things.
posted by tkolar at 10:29 AM on March 13, 2008
I'm sure it is if you find the right little town or hang out in skinhead bars. And I'm sure that you can find at least a few people in any random crowd of Australians.
So yeah, if you went looking I'm sure you could hear lots of whites say lots of things.
posted by tkolar at 10:29 AM on March 13, 2008
Classy.
Ah, the ad hominem retort. Bless you.
taz: there is a lot of coverage here of U.S. political/social issues, and there is room for posts that address similar aspects of other countries.
I considered whether it would be noticed that I specifically used the term 'newsclipfilter'. I understand that news and current events from around the world are accepted fodder on MeFi, but like many have said above I don't believe a weak post (2 news clips—not even articles—and a somewhat related longer piece in this case) should be kept around just because there's the possibility for discussion, or just because the topic needs out in the world.
posted by carsonb at 10:30 AM on March 13, 2008
Ah, the ad hominem retort. Bless you.
taz: there is a lot of coverage here of U.S. political/social issues, and there is room for posts that address similar aspects of other countries.
I considered whether it would be noticed that I specifically used the term 'newsclipfilter'. I understand that news and current events from around the world are accepted fodder on MeFi, but like many have said above I don't believe a weak post (2 news clips—not even articles—and a somewhat related longer piece in this case) should be kept around just because there's the possibility for discussion, or just because the topic needs out in the world.
posted by carsonb at 10:30 AM on March 13, 2008
By LOTS of australian whites, painting a picture of widespread racism.
tkolar, as I said above "lots" was maybe an exaggeration. before I explained what I meant. Is that not enough?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:39 AM on March 13, 2008
tkolar, as I said above "lots" was maybe an exaggeration. before I explained what I meant. Is that not enough?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:39 AM on March 13, 2008
I agree with that, carsonb. I was really responding to "If people need to know about racism in Australia, they will surely find out some way other than browsing MeFi for the best of the web" because we do know that the BOTW thing isn't exactly a true base level for every MeFi post. It's a goal, and I think it's an excellent one, but we do news a lot.
posted by taz at 10:40 AM on March 13, 2008
posted by taz at 10:40 AM on March 13, 2008
mathowie wrote...
tkolar, as I said above "lots" was maybe an exaggeration. before I explained what I meant. Is that not enough?
Sorry, my reproduction of your quote wasn't aimed at you. I felt shmegegge had misrepresented what you originally said, and was trying to demonstrate that misrepresentation to him.
Your restatement of what you meant earlier was graceful and well done, and I didn't mean to imply that the matter was still open.
posted by tkolar at 10:43 AM on March 13, 2008
tkolar, as I said above "lots" was maybe an exaggeration. before I explained what I meant. Is that not enough?
Sorry, my reproduction of your quote wasn't aimed at you. I felt shmegegge had misrepresented what you originally said, and was trying to demonstrate that misrepresentation to him.
Your restatement of what you meant earlier was graceful and well done, and I didn't mean to imply that the matter was still open.
posted by tkolar at 10:43 AM on March 13, 2008
mathowie, not to disparage seanyboy, who feels passionate about a raw, real subject, but I wager that 99.97% of folks here read yr comments as anything other than what they were. Again, I'd like to see a solid post on the issue.
And now, I must shower, gas the behemoth, and putter to tutor.
A justified deletion, based on the strength, or lack thereof, of the post.
So, like, that's my 97 cents.
I hate call outs like this)
posted by dawson at 10:49 AM on March 13, 2008
And now, I must shower, gas the behemoth, and putter to tutor.
A justified deletion, based on the strength, or lack thereof, of the post.
So, like, that's my 97 cents.
I hate call outs like this)
posted by dawson at 10:49 AM on March 13, 2008
I honestly hope that when peacay's woken up he's calmed down a bit, and maybe he will make a post on this subject. I think this thread illustrates that it has our interest, and seeing how peacay has a tendency to make kick-ass posts, I'd much look forward to that.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:36 AM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:36 AM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]
Aboriginal is a big fat important & undercommented issue
I think that the state of Racial inequality in Australia (With highly contentious policies like AACAP) is drastically misrepresented internationally.
I know why the post was deleted, and I don't really know enough about Oz politics to make a definitive call about how parochial a story it is.
This doesn't make any sense...unless seanyboy is a liberal, in the classic hand-wringing American definition of the term.
posted by KokuRyu at 1:16 PM on March 13, 2008
I think that the state of Racial inequality in Australia (With highly contentious policies like AACAP) is drastically misrepresented internationally.
I know why the post was deleted, and I don't really know enough about Oz politics to make a definitive call about how parochial a story it is.
This doesn't make any sense...unless seanyboy is a liberal, in the classic hand-wringing American definition of the term.
posted by KokuRyu at 1:16 PM on March 13, 2008
"Oh yeah, Australia is a fuckin' racist as shit country" but it's another person chiming in with a negative story. It was an aside and as I said above, I know Matt didn't mean anything offensive by it, but it's another stick on the bonfire, it contributes to the shorthand association of Oz=racism without it having flowed from any deeper discussion or context.
I plead guilty. Having taken a step back from the thread and considered it a bit, I can see Peacay has it right. You can't always blame a citizenship for the actions of its government (because not everyone who voted for that government did so on the basis of that government's foreign affairs policy), nor a location for its fuckwit population acting up (because fuckwits are universal), nor even for anecdotal evidence you may have accumulated... and I did all three.
Of the cuff, it seems overwhelming. Considered, it is anything but. Generalisations based on such are insulting to the folk that abhor the practice and who work towards changing the mindset of those involved. Sure, you can find a racist australian, kiwi, new yorker, or drunk in your hometown - but is there any actual value in pointing that out? Probably not. There may be differences in percentages, but if you're on the international corruption list, arguing that 20% is better than 25% is missing the point.
My apologies to Peacay, Jessamyn and metafilter at large for poorly aimed snark in this thread.
posted by Sparx at 3:04 PM on March 13, 2008
I plead guilty. Having taken a step back from the thread and considered it a bit, I can see Peacay has it right. You can't always blame a citizenship for the actions of its government (because not everyone who voted for that government did so on the basis of that government's foreign affairs policy), nor a location for its fuckwit population acting up (because fuckwits are universal), nor even for anecdotal evidence you may have accumulated... and I did all three.
Of the cuff, it seems overwhelming. Considered, it is anything but. Generalisations based on such are insulting to the folk that abhor the practice and who work towards changing the mindset of those involved. Sure, you can find a racist australian, kiwi, new yorker, or drunk in your hometown - but is there any actual value in pointing that out? Probably not. There may be differences in percentages, but if you're on the international corruption list, arguing that 20% is better than 25% is missing the point.
My apologies to Peacay, Jessamyn and metafilter at large for poorly aimed snark in this thread.
posted by Sparx at 3:04 PM on March 13, 2008
but kudos to metafilter in general for getting me to rethink it and reshape my thoughts.
posted by Sparx at 3:14 PM on March 13, 2008
posted by Sparx at 3:14 PM on March 13, 2008
>I object to the generalisation from people that have only had some slight direct knowledge.
>>tkolar, as I said above "lots" was maybe an exaggeration
Well, I've lived in Australia for about 41/2 years in total in the last decade or so. Does that qualify me to make a comment? Because (even though I really do love the place and the people), I've got to say I think it's really fucking racist. And I'm not even exaggerating.
So are a lot of other places, too, though. Tough shit. People suck.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:59 PM on March 13, 2008
>>tkolar, as I said above "lots" was maybe an exaggeration
Well, I've lived in Australia for about 41/2 years in total in the last decade or so. Does that qualify me to make a comment? Because (even though I really do love the place and the people), I've got to say I think it's really fucking racist. And I'm not even exaggerating.
So are a lot of other places, too, though. Tough shit. People suck.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:59 PM on March 13, 2008
You've lived there for 20.5 years in the last decade?
I got nothin'.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:25 PM on March 13, 2008
I got nothin'.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:25 PM on March 13, 2008
To put my crankiness in context, out of the half-dozen or so countries where I've lived for 6 months or more over the years, and the dozens of others I've visited for varying lengths of time, the number where there was some noticeable degree of racist attitude or behaviour: all of them. So there's that.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:38 PM on March 13, 2008
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:38 PM on March 13, 2008
I had to do this. Tom Lehrer, as listened to by Jim Morrison at a young age.
posted by Sparx at 4:47 PM on March 13, 2008
posted by Sparx at 4:47 PM on March 13, 2008
Well, I've lived in Australia for about 41/2 years in total in the last decade or so. Does that qualify me to make a comment?
Way to place the emphasis on the 'slight direct knowledge' and not the 'generalisation' of my comment.
But you know, in my experience, if you can ignore their predeliction for wife beating and that rancid smell, Canadoreans usually have any number of useful observations to contribute on any number of useless subjects. :-P
posted by peacay at 8:57 PM on March 13, 2008
Way to place the emphasis on the 'slight direct knowledge' and not the 'generalisation' of my comment.
But you know, in my experience, if you can ignore their predeliction for wife beating and that rancid smell, Canadoreans usually have any number of useful observations to contribute on any number of useless subjects. :-P
posted by peacay at 8:57 PM on March 13, 2008
Late to this MeTa, but yeah, can't tell you how many times I've labored over a well-thought out essay on the blue only to find the damn thread deleted. That's why I keep my comments short and smart-ass. You never know when the rug will get pulled out from under.
posted by telstar at 11:59 PM on March 13, 2008
posted by telstar at 11:59 PM on March 13, 2008
Canadoreans usually have any number of useful observations to contribute on any number of useless subjects
*bows*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:04 AM on March 14, 2008
*bows*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:04 AM on March 14, 2008
To all those decrying Australians as racist by definition: pot, meet kettle.
Of course there are some racist people here. My guess is that they are more or less the same proportion as almost every country in the world. My experience in dealing with international students in Australia over a 13 year period is that there are countries far more racist than Australia. Far, far more. Sure, that's a limited perspective, but it's way more informed that a 2 week holiday-maker.
It was interesting that someone saw fit to post a crappy column-filler that happened to get picked up as the "aren't people funny" story on one of the current affairs show, but ignored the story the same night on the sex trade in young teenage aboriginal girls among truck drivers along the major freight routes in Australia. So, we (Mefites, not Australians) care more about some fuckwit that will be long forgotten by Sunday morning than an unknown but significant number of young girls with no future whatsoever.
posted by dg at 12:31 AM on March 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Of course there are some racist people here. My guess is that they are more or less the same proportion as almost every country in the world. My experience in dealing with international students in Australia over a 13 year period is that there are countries far more racist than Australia. Far, far more. Sure, that's a limited perspective, but it's way more informed that a 2 week holiday-maker.
It was interesting that someone saw fit to post a crappy column-filler that happened to get picked up as the "aren't people funny" story on one of the current affairs show, but ignored the story the same night on the sex trade in young teenage aboriginal girls among truck drivers along the major freight routes in Australia. So, we (Mefites, not Australians) care more about some fuckwit that will be long forgotten by Sunday morning than an unknown but significant number of young girls with no future whatsoever.
posted by dg at 12:31 AM on March 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Cunnamulla, population 1600.
How are things in Cunnamulla?
Are the kangaroos still leaping there?
Do they still beat up the Abo kids,
The pakis and the yids,
And those with ginger hair?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:21 AM on March 14, 2008
How are things in Cunnamulla?
Are the kangaroos still leaping there?
Do they still beat up the Abo kids,
The pakis and the yids,
And those with ginger hair?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:21 AM on March 14, 2008
To all those decrying Australians as racist by definition: pot, meet kettle.
I see that your last post was about hairless monkeys, dg.
Why oh why must you support the genocide in Darfur?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:30 AM on March 14, 2008
I see that your last post was about hairless monkeys, dg.
Why oh why must you support the genocide in Darfur?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:30 AM on March 14, 2008
It was interesting that someone saw fit to post a crappy column-filler ... but ignored the story the same night on the sex trade in young teenage aboriginal girls among truck drivers along the major freight routes in Australia. So, we (Mefites, not Australians) care more about some fuckwit that will be long forgotten by Sunday morning than an unknown but significant number of young girls with no future whatsoever.
Absence of a post on a topic does not indicate indifference to a topic. OutrageFilter makes for bad posts here no matter what the topic.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:15 AM on March 14, 2008
Absence of a post on a topic does not indicate indifference to a topic. OutrageFilter makes for bad posts here no matter what the topic.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:15 AM on March 14, 2008
But you know, in my experience, if you can ignore their predeliction for wife beating and that rancid smell, Canadoreans usually have any number of useful observations to contribute on any number of useless subjects. :-P
Well, since there's such a big ad campaign here about it right now, I think it's clear that us Australians clearly have a predilection for wife-beating also. One more thing to have in common with our friends from Canadia.
posted by kisch mokusch at 7:30 PM on March 14, 2008
Well, since there's such a big ad campaign here about it right now, I think it's clear that us Australians clearly have a predilection for wife-beating also. One more thing to have in common with our friends from Canadia.
posted by kisch mokusch at 7:30 PM on March 14, 2008
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posted by LarryC at 1:37 AM on March 13, 2008