Over the Line July 26, 2007 5:09 PM Subscribe
This deletion of a post on Christians United for Israel was way over the line. We leave in a Lindsay Lohan linkfest, but we take down a newsworthy post about how people who happily look forward to Armageddon are influencing our country's foreign policy. Max Blumenthal may be an arrogant documentary film-maker, but the footage is still important.
Your defense is that it is newsworthy and important. That's not MetaFilter is for. Interesting stuff on the web is what this site is for. Maybe you should go read the other massive MeTa threads about this. There are several that are still open right now.
posted by team lowkey at 5:18 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by team lowkey at 5:18 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
I agree. I hadn't seen the thread initially, but I just read the article and am glad I did.
posted by ageispolis at 5:19 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by ageispolis at 5:19 PM on July 26, 2007
I'm going to be away from my computer for a few hours. When I return, I look forward to reading the big, fat fucking whiny mess this thread is sure to become.
posted by dersins at 5:23 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by dersins at 5:23 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
Oh come off it. The Lindsey Lohan piece was a "well-researched, well-written post about some lame pop culture thing." All Ty Webb had to do was throw in a ton of other links to imdb, the Ford Modelling Agency, gossip blogs, and live journal, and his post would have stayed. But did he? Did he? No.
Tell you what: repost it, throw in some wikipedia links on Max Blumenthal and Washington D.C. and maybe a few other political blogs and it will qualify as "well-researched."
posted by googly at 5:25 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
Tell you what: repost it, throw in some wikipedia links on Max Blumenthal and Washington D.C. and maybe a few other political blogs and it will qualify as "well-researched."
posted by googly at 5:25 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
My post about Alberto Gonzales's recent testimony was also deleted on the grounds "his bears a dizzying resemblence to the last post that linked to TPM re: Gonzales being a dick under oath." Even though the recent testimony was much more extreme in terms of not answering questions and lying.
I didn't post it because I wanted to OUTRAGE people, I just thought it was interesting and entertaining.
I don't get why we should be deleting interesting content because it offends a particular political group that most people around here don't like.
There is a lot of bad "liberal" posting, but I think the mods are being over zealous.
posted by delmoi at 5:30 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
I didn't post it because I wanted to OUTRAGE people, I just thought it was interesting and entertaining.
I don't get why we should be deleting interesting content because it offends a particular political group that most people around here don't like.
There is a lot of bad "liberal" posting, but I think the mods are being over zealous.
posted by delmoi at 5:30 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Hay guise, someone need to make a Single-Link-Posters Pride Club, like a pledge where we go, "we, the undersigned, hereby swear to never put more than one link in our post just to make it seem yummier despite a lame topic, for we have faith in our lame single links, forever and ever Amen."
posted by Firas at 5:30 PM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
posted by Firas at 5:30 PM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
Your defense is that it is newsworthy and important. That's not MetaFilter is for. Interesting stuff on the web is what this site is for.
The video was interesting. I seriously doubt that if it had just been a video about a wacky cult and didn't tie into any current events it would have stayed.
posted by delmoi at 5:32 PM on July 26, 2007
The video was interesting. I seriously doubt that if it had just been a video about a wacky cult and didn't tie into any current events it would have stayed.
posted by delmoi at 5:32 PM on July 26, 2007
Hay guise, someone need to make a Single-Link-Posters Pride Club, like a pledge where we go -- Firas
You know you have exactly 1,000 comments on the blue right now?
posted by delmoi at 5:33 PM on July 26, 2007
You know you have exactly 1,000 comments on the blue right now?
posted by delmoi at 5:33 PM on July 26, 2007
Yes, but I'll wait to get ceremoniously smashed and renounce my membership for when I get 1,000 favorites.
posted by Firas at 5:34 PM on July 26, 2007 [6 favorites]
posted by Firas at 5:34 PM on July 26, 2007 [6 favorites]
Unfortunately, because so many assholes post "look at these assholes" posts, some assholes think that all assholes are assholes posting about other assholes.
posted by Elmore at 5:41 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Elmore at 5:41 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
You know, I understand the worry that being too laissez faire about political posts might slowly steer the good ship Metafilter into the waters of endless SHITCOKC!!! political rantery in thread after thread, I also often learn quite a bit from the better, more thoughtful comments in political threads here, something which never happens anywhere else that I've found yet.
The idea that 'Metafilter doesn't do X well' isn't true, and need not be true. It'll do it well if we try to do it well.
I'd almost rather leave the potentially contentious threads up, and see the mods (overworked, it seems, but still) delete every instance of nonsubstantive commenting in political threads, consistently and with an Iron Fucking Hand, as behavioural modification. I'd venture that a fair number of cases it might not be the post itself that's the problem, but the fearful anticipation of the coming commenting trainwreck that leads to deletion. Perhaps not often enough to matter, though, on the other hand.
I dunno. I go both ways on this.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:42 PM on July 26, 2007 [9 favorites]
The idea that 'Metafilter doesn't do X well' isn't true, and need not be true. It'll do it well if we try to do it well.
I'd almost rather leave the potentially contentious threads up, and see the mods (overworked, it seems, but still) delete every instance of nonsubstantive commenting in political threads, consistently and with an Iron Fucking Hand, as behavioural modification. I'd venture that a fair number of cases it might not be the post itself that's the problem, but the fearful anticipation of the coming commenting trainwreck that leads to deletion. Perhaps not often enough to matter, though, on the other hand.
I dunno. I go both ways on this.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:42 PM on July 26, 2007 [9 favorites]
What do you mean "our country," paleface?
posted by Abiezer at 5:45 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by Abiezer at 5:45 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
I don't get why we should be deleting interesting content because it offends a particular political group that most people around here don't like.
I don't get why we would want to do that either. I'll let you know as soon as I start basing my decisions on anything remotely resembling that, I promise; the mean time, it was Gonzales updatefilter in the form of a bunch of links to a poliblog that has been linked to death around here already. Josh Marshall does a great job with his site, but we don't need to mirror it, especially when there are a few Bush admin posts standing open from the last few days where it could be discussed.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:52 PM on July 26, 2007
I don't get why we would want to do that either. I'll let you know as soon as I start basing my decisions on anything remotely resembling that, I promise; the mean time, it was Gonzales updatefilter in the form of a bunch of links to a poliblog that has been linked to death around here already. Josh Marshall does a great job with his site, but we don't need to mirror it, especially when there are a few Bush admin posts standing open from the last few days where it could be discussed.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:52 PM on July 26, 2007
Holy fuck, it was a link to a huffpost blog entry and the website for the organization the movie was about. It's garbage, get over it.
When people want to make an intersting post about any movie/book/newspaper article/album, or whatever, they'd god damn better do better than to just link to the blog they heard about it from.
good post = well researched links to information about the movie and the organization it's about.
bad post = "hey guys, huffington post just tore these xtian nuts a new one. go check it out."
so yeah, I can easily see why jessamyn saw this as just one way to open up an anti-christian/anti-republican discussion on metafilter that was already happening on another blog. It's because that's precisely what the post was.
posted by shmegegge at 5:54 PM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
When people want to make an intersting post about any movie/book/newspaper article/album, or whatever, they'd god damn better do better than to just link to the blog they heard about it from.
good post = well researched links to information about the movie and the organization it's about.
bad post = "hey guys, huffington post just tore these xtian nuts a new one. go check it out."
so yeah, I can easily see why jessamyn saw this as just one way to open up an anti-christian/anti-republican discussion on metafilter that was already happening on another blog. It's because that's precisely what the post was.
posted by shmegegge at 5:54 PM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
Firas: So, I got about 100 favorites in before I got bored. I'll let you know when I'm finished my Firas-Favoriting-PERL script.
posted by Loto at 5:54 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by Loto at 5:54 PM on July 26, 2007
dailykos, huffingtonpost, and tpm links have to be really amazing, really incredible, and really unique to rise above the daily outrage grind going on at all three sites. Those sites tend to get people all riled up about Really Important Things that Must Be Shared on MetaFilter, but from a mile up, this looked like a link to any random political post made any day of the week on Huffington post.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 5:59 PM on July 26, 2007 [8 favorites]
posted by mathowie (staff) at 5:59 PM on July 26, 2007 [8 favorites]
Hay guise, someone need to make a Single-Link-Posters Pride Club, like a pledge where we go, "we, the undersigned, hereby swear to never put more than one link in our post just to make it seem yummier despite a lame topic, for we have faith in our lame single links, forever and ever Amen."
I prefer to think that if you don't have one link that can stand on its own, you don't have a post. It ain't adding fractions, people, three half-assed links don't equal 1.5 good ones.
posted by arto at 6:05 PM on July 26, 2007 [4 favorites]
Loto: OH. MY. GOD. THAT'S THE NICEST THING ANYONE'S EVER EVER DONE FOR ME, I AM GOING TO DANCE ON MY KITCHEN TABLE WITH THE BLINDS UP WHILST DROWNING IN CHAMPAGNE AND DOUSING MY BEWILDERED ROOMMATES IN RED WINE JUST FOR YOU YOU TOTAL DARLING OH MY GOD *FAINTS*
posted by Firas at 6:06 PM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
posted by Firas at 6:06 PM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
AS IN LITERALLY DOUSING THEM, I.E. SPRAYING IT ON THEM SOMEHOW BUT THE DROWNING IN CHAMPAGNE IS METAPHORICAL KTHXBYE
posted by Firas at 6:08 PM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
posted by Firas at 6:08 PM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
Max Blumenthal may be an arrogant documentary film-maker, but the footage is still important.
The topic may be very interesting, but the post was still crappy.
Hey look, three mods in 15 minutes!
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:21 PM on July 26, 2007
The topic may be very interesting, but the post was still crappy.
Hey look, three mods in 15 minutes!
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:21 PM on July 26, 2007
Willow, you fool! You turned me into a guh-o-o-o-o-oat!
posted by loquacious at 6:25 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by loquacious at 6:25 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
More to the point, if you're going to post something on MeFi that has some sort of an anti-Christian stance, or hell even a pro-Christian stance, it better be a damned good link and/or a damned good post. Those types of posts, as well as polifilter posts that link mainly to TPM or HuffPo, go poorly here for reasons we've been talking about for eight years.
People can debate why they may or may not go poorly, but unless the posts are decent to start with, they devolve faster than most. I'm sorry there's a short list of topics that Don't Go Well here, I wish it weren't the case, but Ty Webb and delmoi have both been around long enough to know that's likely to be the case.
As for the Lindsey Lohan post, I didn't personally like it much [and was called "fucking pathetic" for likening it to the political posts I don't like] but it was the perfect example of taking a lightweight topic and adding more stuff than just the usual lazy link to Perez Hilton and the top Google results for Lohan. That mde it a decent MeFi post and that's why it stayed.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:26 PM on July 26, 2007
People can debate why they may or may not go poorly, but unless the posts are decent to start with, they devolve faster than most. I'm sorry there's a short list of topics that Don't Go Well here, I wish it weren't the case, but Ty Webb and delmoi have both been around long enough to know that's likely to be the case.
As for the Lindsey Lohan post, I didn't personally like it much [and was called "fucking pathetic" for likening it to the political posts I don't like] but it was the perfect example of taking a lightweight topic and adding more stuff than just the usual lazy link to Perez Hilton and the top Google results for Lohan. That mde it a decent MeFi post and that's why it stayed.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:26 PM on July 26, 2007
I agree with jessamyn: There are plenty of opportunities to have LOLXIAN flamewars. Such things always produce more heat than light. While I don't think it's good to avoid things that may be controversial, no one gets anything out of stupid flamewars besides blowing off steam.
I was hesitant about my last 2 FPPs: The Tammy Faye Obit, and the Japanese Relocation film. They both had the potential to bringing out the flamethrowers, but they both surprised me by avoiding flamewars. (The Tammy Faye obit had some heated discussion in the last third, but at least there was some light along with the heat, even in comments I considered trolling.) But I considered them both interesting enough to warrant a shot at the blue. In the case of Tammy Faye: ObitFilter was a concern, but she was unique in her appeal to people of opposite lifestyles, and, frankly, it was personal to me because I was acquainted with her many years ago.
"Lightweight" subjects can make good FPPs. (Matt himself has posted a one-link YouTube!) And serious, important subjects can make terrible FPPs.
Whatever happened to the mantra I used to hear around here all the time? "Try harder!" :)
posted by The Deej at 6:57 PM on July 26, 2007
I was hesitant about my last 2 FPPs: The Tammy Faye Obit, and the Japanese Relocation film. They both had the potential to bringing out the flamethrowers, but they both surprised me by avoiding flamewars. (The Tammy Faye obit had some heated discussion in the last third, but at least there was some light along with the heat, even in comments I considered trolling.) But I considered them both interesting enough to warrant a shot at the blue. In the case of Tammy Faye: ObitFilter was a concern, but she was unique in her appeal to people of opposite lifestyles, and, frankly, it was personal to me because I was acquainted with her many years ago.
"Lightweight" subjects can make good FPPs. (Matt himself has posted a one-link YouTube!) And serious, important subjects can make terrible FPPs.
Whatever happened to the mantra I used to hear around here all the time? "Try harder!" :)
posted by The Deej at 6:57 PM on July 26, 2007
Hey look, three mods in 15 minutes!
mmm... moddy threesome...
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 7:01 PM on July 26, 2007
mmm... moddy threesome...
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 7:01 PM on July 26, 2007
IT PUTS THE POST BACK ON THE FRONT PAGE OR IT GETS THE HOSE!
posted by blue_beetle at 7:12 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by blue_beetle at 7:12 PM on July 26, 2007
but the footage is still important
No, it's actually not important at all.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 7:12 PM on July 26, 2007
No, it's actually not important at all.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 7:12 PM on July 26, 2007
cortex:
With all due respect, I think the deletion of delmoi's Gonzo post was a little premature. The first FPP was definitely about Gonzales being a dick, but the new post was pointing to the whole thing taking a more sinister turn. Contempt charges, subpoenas, and a perjury investigation are all flying after this little episode.
I understand the newsfilter concerns, and I appreciate and support the administration of this site. I just think that post had some legs.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 7:20 PM on July 26, 2007
With all due respect, I think the deletion of delmoi's Gonzo post was a little premature. The first FPP was definitely about Gonzales being a dick, but the new post was pointing to the whole thing taking a more sinister turn. Contempt charges, subpoenas, and a perjury investigation are all flying after this little episode.
I understand the newsfilter concerns, and I appreciate and support the administration of this site. I just think that post had some legs.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 7:20 PM on July 26, 2007
All you whiners really need to GYOFBs. Seriously- go to Blogspot, start a blog, and start posting all this stuff that is sooooo important. Perhaps you'll begin to understand why "important" !=! "interesting" when it's your own website. Or maybe not. But hey, then you'll already have a designated spot to complain!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:24 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:24 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
More to the point, if you're going to post something on MeFi that has some sort of an anti-Christian stance, or hell even a pro-Christian stance, it better be a damned good link and/or a damned good post....
As for the Lindsey Lohan post...it was the perfect example of taking a lightweight topic and adding more stuff than just the usual lazy link to Perez Hilton and the top Google results for Lohan. That mde it a decent MeFi post and that's why it stayed.
Fair enough. Here's what I don't get:
A (basically) single-link post to a video about an influential lobbying organization gets deleted because it might devolve into a flame war.
A single-link direct post to video of some gas canisters blowing up is allowed to stay because....?
A single-link youtube post to a drag show number that was mildly amusing stays because...?
A single-link post to a craptacular CBS mini-site for The Price is Right announcing Drew Carey as new host stays because...?
A single-link post to video of some Filipino inmates doing Thriller stays even while it was also linked in another FPP that was clearly better because...
I think these all qualify as lazy, single-link posts. Yet they were not deleted. It seems like a crappy post on a crappy topic is ok, but a crappy post on a politically sensetive topic is worthy of deletion. And a "good" post (and "good" is beginning to sound suspiciously like "has a lot of links in it") on a crappy topic is ok, but a "good" post on a politically sensitive topic may still get the axe.
Also: why is a flamewar thread less acceptable than a thread with 150 DREWCAREYSUXXORZ comment? I don't think either reflects particularly well on MeFi.
I've said before that I think the mods do a fantastic job around here and I generally support them in their reasons for deletions of comments and posts. But its difficult for me to reconcile the given reasons for this particular deletion while other, equally thin posts remain.
posted by googly at 7:25 PM on July 26, 2007 [4 favorites]
As for the Lindsey Lohan post...it was the perfect example of taking a lightweight topic and adding more stuff than just the usual lazy link to Perez Hilton and the top Google results for Lohan. That mde it a decent MeFi post and that's why it stayed.
Fair enough. Here's what I don't get:
A (basically) single-link post to a video about an influential lobbying organization gets deleted because it might devolve into a flame war.
A single-link direct post to video of some gas canisters blowing up is allowed to stay because....?
A single-link youtube post to a drag show number that was mildly amusing stays because...?
A single-link post to a craptacular CBS mini-site for The Price is Right announcing Drew Carey as new host stays because...?
A single-link post to video of some Filipino inmates doing Thriller stays even while it was also linked in another FPP that was clearly better because...
I think these all qualify as lazy, single-link posts. Yet they were not deleted. It seems like a crappy post on a crappy topic is ok, but a crappy post on a politically sensetive topic is worthy of deletion. And a "good" post (and "good" is beginning to sound suspiciously like "has a lot of links in it") on a crappy topic is ok, but a "good" post on a politically sensitive topic may still get the axe.
Also: why is a flamewar thread less acceptable than a thread with 150 DREWCAREYSUXXORZ comment? I don't think either reflects particularly well on MeFi.
I've said before that I think the mods do a fantastic job around here and I generally support them in their reasons for deletions of comments and posts. But its difficult for me to reconcile the given reasons for this particular deletion while other, equally thin posts remain.
posted by googly at 7:25 PM on July 26, 2007 [4 favorites]
It seems like a crappy post on a crappy topic is ok, but a crappy post on a politically sensetive topic is worthy of deletion.
Yep, that's exactly how it is. Is that really such a bad thing? It just means people who want to make political posts have to try harder, as The Deej reminded us above, than people who make other kinds of posts here. It's not demanding too much to ask that MeFi political posts not just be links to whatever's the latest at Kos or the Huffington Post.
posted by mediareport at 7:32 PM on July 26, 2007
Yep, that's exactly how it is. Is that really such a bad thing? It just means people who want to make political posts have to try harder, as The Deej reminded us above, than people who make other kinds of posts here. It's not demanding too much to ask that MeFi political posts not just be links to whatever's the latest at Kos or the Huffington Post.
posted by mediareport at 7:32 PM on July 26, 2007
A single-link youtube post to a drag show number that was mildly amusing stays because...?
Because it was awesome1. Duh.
Don't be fucking with my posts, mister rhetorical question man.
1. c.f. best of the web.
posted by dersins at 7:33 PM on July 26, 2007
Because it was awesome1. Duh.
Don't be fucking with my posts, mister rhetorical question man.
1. c.f. best of the web.
posted by dersins at 7:33 PM on July 26, 2007
By the way, to folks who think it's just the subject matter that got the post yanked, here's a post about Christian Zionism that didn't get deleted.
posted by mediareport at 7:36 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by mediareport at 7:36 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
I think we can compromise on this. Let's implement a daily quota system.
2 look at those assholes posts per month
1 iraq post per week
2 single link youtube posts per day.
1 lolcat/lolrelated post per month.
posted by chlorus at 7:37 PM on July 26, 2007
2 look at those assholes posts per month
1 iraq post per week
2 single link youtube posts per day.
1 lolcat/lolrelated post per month.
posted by chlorus at 7:37 PM on July 26, 2007
This reminds me of the way I discovered that posts were, in fact, deleted. One day I was in the lab, surfing the net, saw an interesting post about an Israeli atrocity caught on film, said, "I have to check that out." Went home, spent an hour looking for it. "I could have sworn ..." I thought I'd begun to lose my mind.
posted by adipocere at 7:39 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by adipocere at 7:39 PM on July 26, 2007
I just think that post had some legs.
It was two links to talkingpointsmemo.com and one link to tpmmuckraker.com. The idea of something having "legs" is more in line with a news story than a post to MetaFilter. It's GonzalesUpdateFilter. Add to this the language of the post -- the word "lying" linking to an OMGONZALEZ article on TPM, and "quite a performance" and you have a post that was more suited to Talking Points Memo which is actually where it already was. I have a great deal of respect for Josh and the TPM crew, but there's no reason those posts can't be discussed over there.
They go badly here, they're not the main focus of the site, they're being discussed elsewhere. Unless they're really good posts on their own and not "this is a really important topic, look at these assholes" posts, they're not good for MeFi. The fact that there are such great counterexamples of good versions of these sorts of posts point out that it can be done, it's not just some group of outraged partisans demanding their removal.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:40 PM on July 26, 2007
It was two links to talkingpointsmemo.com and one link to tpmmuckraker.com. The idea of something having "legs" is more in line with a news story than a post to MetaFilter. It's GonzalesUpdateFilter. Add to this the language of the post -- the word "lying" linking to an OMGONZALEZ article on TPM, and "quite a performance" and you have a post that was more suited to Talking Points Memo which is actually where it already was. I have a great deal of respect for Josh and the TPM crew, but there's no reason those posts can't be discussed over there.
They go badly here, they're not the main focus of the site, they're being discussed elsewhere. Unless they're really good posts on their own and not "this is a really important topic, look at these assholes" posts, they're not good for MeFi. The fact that there are such great counterexamples of good versions of these sorts of posts point out that it can be done, it's not just some group of outraged partisans demanding their removal.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:40 PM on July 26, 2007
One of the great failures of the Metatalk system, is that quite often mods and others are forced to give concrete point by point reasons why a post was "good" or "bad" or "why this stayed" or "this didn't."
There is no scientific method for constructing a post or behaving on Metafilter. I barely think the guidelines are applicable. I've mentioned this analogy before, but Metafilter is a small cafe on the corner of the internet. The mods are just there to keep things cool. Sometimes on some days certain things are cool. Sometimes they're not. Their job is to make sure there's never too much of anything, like wacky fluff or serious topics, and to make sure there's no rampant fistfights.
So my best advice, whenever there is a great deletion or nondeletion injustice, is to just be "whatever" about it. Because there's no malicious censorship authoritarian regime going on, it's just 3 bartenders in a cafe trying to keep shit cool.
posted by Stan Chin at 7:45 PM on July 26, 2007 [24 favorites]
There is no scientific method for constructing a post or behaving on Metafilter. I barely think the guidelines are applicable. I've mentioned this analogy before, but Metafilter is a small cafe on the corner of the internet. The mods are just there to keep things cool. Sometimes on some days certain things are cool. Sometimes they're not. Their job is to make sure there's never too much of anything, like wacky fluff or serious topics, and to make sure there's no rampant fistfights.
So my best advice, whenever there is a great deletion or nondeletion injustice, is to just be "whatever" about it. Because there's no malicious censorship authoritarian regime going on, it's just 3 bartenders in a cafe trying to keep shit cool.
posted by Stan Chin at 7:45 PM on July 26, 2007 [24 favorites]
Tell you what: repost it, throw in some wikipedia links on Max Blumenthal and Washington D.C. and maybe a few other political blogs and it will qualify as "well-researched."
Max Blumenthal, a Puffin Foundation writing fellow at the Nation Institute has been published in The Nation, Salon, The American Prospect and the Washington Monthly. He is a research fellow for Media Matters for America. He has recently stepped beyond "print-based" contributions, appearing on television news programs and videotapping his own interviews and posting them online. Recent contributions include: Young Republican Chickenhawks, Interview with Marine Mother Tina Richards and Rapture Ready: The Unauthorized Christians United for Israel Tour. His foray into home-made video posted to the web -- like that of other journalists and 'regular folk' -- demonstrates the ability for one to access a global medium at very low cost in order to get one's message across.posted by ericb at 7:49 PM on July 26, 2007 [9 favorites]
I do think that this was a bad delete, and that Lohan was a bad keep.
At the same time, I'm kind of pissed that Ty Webb didn't bother to search up another couple links (not 36!) about eschatological Zionism, so that his post could have had a bit more richness and interest.
Anyway, nowadays I do check in on deleted thread occasionally for the things that fall through the cracks here at mefi.
posted by washburn at 7:49 PM on July 26, 2007
At the same time, I'm kind of pissed that Ty Webb didn't bother to search up another couple links (not 36!) about eschatological Zionism, so that his post could have had a bit more richness and interest.
Anyway, nowadays I do check in on deleted thread occasionally for the things that fall through the cracks here at mefi.
posted by washburn at 7:49 PM on July 26, 2007
It seems like a crappy post on a crappy topic is ok, but a crappy post on a politically sensetive topic is worthy of deletion.
Well, a crappy post on a politically sensitive topic is a lot more likely to generate a great big pile of flags than a crappy post on an apolitical, ashitstormish topic, that's for sure.
I thought about deleting the Drew Cary post. Thought it was dumb. I thought about deleting the explosion post; likewise. In the end, wavered.
There have been political posts I've thought about deleting in the last few days too, but which I didn't delete. The folks who like politics aren't complaining about those, even though they were more heavily flagged and had uglier edges to the comments than either of the above.
And that drag thing was fucking dope, fyi.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:51 PM on July 26, 2007
Well, a crappy post on a politically sensitive topic is a lot more likely to generate a great big pile of flags than a crappy post on an apolitical, ashitstormish topic, that's for sure.
I thought about deleting the Drew Cary post. Thought it was dumb. I thought about deleting the explosion post; likewise. In the end, wavered.
There have been political posts I've thought about deleting in the last few days too, but which I didn't delete. The folks who like politics aren't complaining about those, even though they were more heavily flagged and had uglier edges to the comments than either of the above.
And that drag thing was fucking dope, fyi.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:51 PM on July 26, 2007
Oh come on, why can't we talk about mass pop culture from time to time?
posted by chlorus at 7:51 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by chlorus at 7:51 PM on July 26, 2007
By the way, speaking of deleted threads, should I be able to flag things in deleted threads?
Because I, like, can.
posted by dersins at 7:59 PM on July 26, 2007
Because I, like, can.
posted by dersins at 7:59 PM on July 26, 2007
How can you post about politics when there's a culture war going on?!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:59 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:59 PM on July 26, 2007
And that drag thing was fucking dope, fyi.
For serious. That video is my new obsession and life inspiration. Anyone who thinks otherwise didn't watch for more than 27 seconds.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:00 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
For serious. That video is my new obsession and life inspiration. Anyone who thinks otherwise didn't watch for more than 27 seconds.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:00 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
Yeah, but when a flag falls in a deleted thread, does it make the queue?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:00 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:00 PM on July 26, 2007
Immanentize the eschaton!
posted by Abiezer at 8:01 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Abiezer at 8:01 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Let me clarify something. I thought the drag show was dope too. Really. And I watched the whole thing. But nobody came on saying "yeah, this is fine, but we can't let it stay unless you throw in some other links about superman, wonderwoman, and drag shows in general." My point was just that it was a singlelink post to a youtube video and it stayed, whereas a singlelink post to something that wasn't quite as amusing but was possibly inflammatory was deleted, and the apparent reason given was "bad post."
posted by googly at 8:06 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by googly at 8:06 PM on July 26, 2007
My point was just that it was a singlelink post to a youtube video and it stayed, whereas a singlelink post to something that wasn't quite as amusing but was possibly inflammatory was deleted, and the apparent reason given was "bad post."
One might then infer that it's not the medium of a post, it's the content. New, fresh stuff we don't see everyday? Awesome! Old, rehashed topics we've done a thousand times that never go well? Not so awesome.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:11 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
One might then infer that it's not the medium of a post, it's the content. New, fresh stuff we don't see everyday? Awesome! Old, rehashed topics we've done a thousand times that never go well? Not so awesome.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:11 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
This is the quintessential post designed to create the identical flame war as 80% of your posting history.
When I have a shitty post should I just dump it directly on the gray? Because that's what this is.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 8:13 PM on July 26, 2007
When I have a shitty post should I just dump it directly on the gray? Because that's what this is.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 8:13 PM on July 26, 2007
googly, you're fishing for some black and white rules.
re-read what mediareport and stan chin have said: Politics posts do need to be better than regular posts. And there aren't any hard and fast rules you can apply with 100% accuracy to everything, we're just trying to keep the shit slinging to a minimum.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:16 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
re-read what mediareport and stan chin have said: Politics posts do need to be better than regular posts. And there aren't any hard and fast rules you can apply with 100% accuracy to everything, we're just trying to keep the shit slinging to a minimum.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:16 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
My point was just that it was a singlelink post to a youtube video and it stayed, whereas a singlelink post to something that wasn't quite as amusing but was possibly inflammatory was deleted, and the apparent reason given was "bad post."
Yes. A single link to something random and good was undeleted, and a single link to something that was Yet Another shitstorm honeypot on a topic that had not just been essentially but, as mediareport pointed out, literally done before, was deleted. In the mean time, shitty pop culture posts and good political posts have been deleted and not deleted, respectively.
(I don't think they will admit that criteria for deletion are volatile and change from day to day and subject to subject.)
The criteria for deletion are volatile and change from day to day and subject to subject. We're not robots hitting a checklist, we're three different humans using judgment in the face of changing conditions and community feedback to keep this place from going to shit. Get over it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:17 PM on July 26, 2007 [7 favorites]
Yes. A single link to something random and good was undeleted, and a single link to something that was Yet Another shitstorm honeypot on a topic that had not just been essentially but, as mediareport pointed out, literally done before, was deleted. In the mean time, shitty pop culture posts and good political posts have been deleted and not deleted, respectively.
(I don't think they will admit that criteria for deletion are volatile and change from day to day and subject to subject.)
The criteria for deletion are volatile and change from day to day and subject to subject. We're not robots hitting a checklist, we're three different humans using judgment in the face of changing conditions and community feedback to keep this place from going to shit. Get over it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:17 PM on July 26, 2007 [7 favorites]
i hate post deletions, but i gotta admit if i was a mod sooner or later i'd axe a post and give the reason as "cuz i said so" or "just to piss you off". or better yet, "please open the box turtle with the tin shears kthxbye".
posted by quonsar at 8:22 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by quonsar at 8:22 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
whereas a singlelink post to something that wasn't quite as amusing but was possibly inflammatory was deleted, and the apparent reason given was "bad post."
Because it was a "bad post." I don't know this for sure, but this is my theory: A lot of the deletion reasons (unless blatantly obvious) are pure chaff. The "pad your posts" thing is complete nonsense. Give more links if they're interesting. A lot of link padded posts are just as shitty or great without the padding.
As for "bad post" as a reason, yeah, it's a shitty reason. But it's a good enough reason when you consider that sometimes a post just don't 'jive' with the healthy atmosphere of Metafilter. Sometimes, perfectly good interesting links are deleted because they are framed by the poster through writing tone to stir shit up. Heck, sometimes people's posting histories make bad posts. Somebody like dios or y2karl have a lot of baggage to their names.
You've got to trust that sometimes "Bad" and "Good" is wildly dependent on the subject matter at hand, and how people will react to it. Are you posting to get an outrage response? That's a bad post. Are you posting to get a 'I want to know what you think' or 'check this out'? Probably good.
You can make a post about anything. Believe me, I have made some of the greatest and shittiest undeleted posts ever on MeFi. (Fine, 'greatest' not so much.) It's all about framing your post so it'll play correctly to the community.
posted by Stan Chin at 8:24 PM on July 26, 2007
Because it was a "bad post." I don't know this for sure, but this is my theory: A lot of the deletion reasons (unless blatantly obvious) are pure chaff. The "pad your posts" thing is complete nonsense. Give more links if they're interesting. A lot of link padded posts are just as shitty or great without the padding.
As for "bad post" as a reason, yeah, it's a shitty reason. But it's a good enough reason when you consider that sometimes a post just don't 'jive' with the healthy atmosphere of Metafilter. Sometimes, perfectly good interesting links are deleted because they are framed by the poster through writing tone to stir shit up. Heck, sometimes people's posting histories make bad posts. Somebody like dios or y2karl have a lot of baggage to their names.
You've got to trust that sometimes "Bad" and "Good" is wildly dependent on the subject matter at hand, and how people will react to it. Are you posting to get an outrage response? That's a bad post. Are you posting to get a 'I want to know what you think' or 'check this out'? Probably good.
You can make a post about anything. Believe me, I have made some of the greatest and shittiest undeleted posts ever on MeFi. (Fine, 'greatest' not so much.) It's all about framing your post so it'll play correctly to the community.
posted by Stan Chin at 8:24 PM on July 26, 2007
For your information, the Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint.
posted by kosem at 8:25 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by kosem at 8:25 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
The first FPP was definitely about Gonzales being a dick, but the new post was pointing to the whole thing taking a more sinister turn. Contempt charges, subpoenas, and a perjury investigation are all flying after this little episode.
I just think that post had some legs.
Yep. This evening's development: FBI director contradicts Gonzales’ testimony may be considered frivolous and not worthy of discussion here by some, but would have added a dimension to the deleted post. Another "train has left the station" with Gonzalez getting into even-hotter water, Rove subpoenaed and contempt charges being called for against Bush aides. The U.S. is on the verge of a Constitutional Crisis -- a showdown between our Executive and Legislative branches. With the possible 'shit-storm' ahead we should expect some here will post FPP's on these and related topics. I ask the admins: 'what qualities will allow these FPP's from surviving deletion?'
Oh, and just wait, as we approach the September-timetable regarding "progress/failure" in Iraq and the 2008 Presidential elections. And heaven-forbid, if Chertoff's 'hunch' comes true, the U.S. experiences a massive terrorist attck in the next few months.
posted by ericb at 8:26 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
I just think that post had some legs.
Yep. This evening's development: FBI director contradicts Gonzales’ testimony may be considered frivolous and not worthy of discussion here by some, but would have added a dimension to the deleted post. Another "train has left the station" with Gonzalez getting into even-hotter water, Rove subpoenaed and contempt charges being called for against Bush aides. The U.S. is on the verge of a Constitutional Crisis -- a showdown between our Executive and Legislative branches. With the possible 'shit-storm' ahead we should expect some here will post FPP's on these and related topics. I ask the admins: 'what qualities will allow these FPP's from surviving deletion?'
Oh, and just wait, as we approach the September-timetable regarding "progress/failure" in Iraq and the 2008 Presidential elections. And heaven-forbid, if Chertoff's 'hunch' comes true, the U.S. experiences a massive terrorist attck in the next few months.
posted by ericb at 8:26 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
BTW -- I don't begrudge (and admire) the admin work that Matt, Jess and Josh have to put up with here. I'd need 'half-a-bottle-of-scotch at night' to settle down and get some sleep. Oh, wait, I still do! ; )
posted by ericb at 8:31 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by ericb at 8:31 PM on July 26, 2007
First of all, the canisters exploding post was fucking awesome.
Second of all, what needs to hapen before posting an update to the gonzo story is acceptable? I mean The FBI chief just directly contradicted him, and they're trying to appoint a special prosecutor. Things seem to be moving quickly at the moment.
posted by delmoi at 8:37 PM on July 26, 2007
Second of all, what needs to hapen before posting an update to the gonzo story is acceptable? I mean The FBI chief just directly contradicted him, and they're trying to appoint a special prosecutor. Things seem to be moving quickly at the moment.
posted by delmoi at 8:37 PM on July 26, 2007
I'm sure you're all wondering: yes, yes, but what does JONSON think about this? Well let me tell you... I'm against the deletion. The fact that a recent former Majority Leader is gleefully awaiting the destruction of all life on Earth is fascinating.
posted by jonson at 8:39 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by jonson at 8:39 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
I think the post should have stayed because it linked to an entertaining 9-minute long video. Creepy dancing, people going off-message, entertaining interviews, just a well-made brief film. It's also an interesting, important topic. If the url had been something unfamiliar, rather than huffingtonpost.com, I bet it probably would have stayed. THat this topic was "done" a year and a half ago seems neither a rather slender reed for a deletion.
I mean, delete away, it's your site, we're just living in it, I just disagree with this one.
posted by ibmcginty at 8:39 PM on July 26, 2007
I mean, delete away, it's your site, we're just living in it, I just disagree with this one.
posted by ibmcginty at 8:39 PM on July 26, 2007
(I'm not asking that rhetorically, I'm actually curious. There will probably be some major developments soon. I'll let someone else post on this topic, but I am curious about what would need to happen for a post on this topic to stay)
posted by delmoi at 8:40 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by delmoi at 8:40 PM on July 26, 2007
I think it's time to spin the LOLDEMPUBLICANS and LOL$your_religious_persuasion_here stuff off into its own section.
Call it lol.metafilter.com. Low moderation, all look-how-dumb-and-eevl-the-other-side-is all the time. Endless OMGONZALES. The LOLXIANS thread of the day.
Absolute paradise for the person who believes that These Are Important Issues That Must Be Exposed.
Only, there's one stipulation. If you post/comment on lol.mefi, you can't post/comment any of the other MeFi family of websites. It's the blue or the color-to-be-named-later. You go to lol.mefi and want to post in the blue or green or black or white, you pay $5 and get a new username.
posted by dw at 8:41 PM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
Call it lol.metafilter.com. Low moderation, all look-how-dumb-and-eevl-the-other-side-is all the time. Endless OMGONZALES. The LOLXIANS thread of the day.
Absolute paradise for the person who believes that These Are Important Issues That Must Be Exposed.
Only, there's one stipulation. If you post/comment on lol.mefi, you can't post/comment any of the other MeFi family of websites. It's the blue or the color-to-be-named-later. You go to lol.mefi and want to post in the blue or green or black or white, you pay $5 and get a new username.
posted by dw at 8:41 PM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
...you really just want to chat about current events, and mefi is more about the links to interesting sites first, the interesting comments are secondary.
posted by mathowie at 6:41 PM MST on August 2
posted by blue_beetle at 8:41 PM on July 26, 2007
With the possible 'shit-storm' ahead we should expect some here will post FPP's on these and related topics. I ask the admins: 'what qualities will allow these FPP's from surviving deletion?'
This is not a canonical or complete answer, and I'm hopping the rails administratively to get a bit more personal here, but here's an important metric: is shit happening, or are things just shitty? Gonzales is an ass and represents some of the worst bullshit endemic to current US federal politics and the standing administration, but today he just did more of the same. Even Mueller's tasty testimony today was carefully guarded wordsmithing in a slow-burn, nothing-at-all-may-happen grind. Is some serious shit going to go down? Great! Post about it when it does. We've had no shortage of posts about what's Totally Going To Happen and then maybe does, probably doesn't, and those suck.
Now, that's me trying to actually put my (limited but not exactly detached) personal perspective on the subject into an explanation that we do not need a fresh thread just to house ongoing dismay. Yes, it's new that Gonzales said the latest bullshit in the sense that it's not literally, verbatim the same bullshit he was spouting three months ago; but it's hardly mefi-new in the sense that anything concrete has happened. Insofar as people want to present the notion that These Things Matter for defending politics posts against deletion, it'd be a lot easier to accept that at face value if the post actually did contain shit that mattered in any eventful, This Is A New Thing sense. The comments from that thread were characterized mostly by (justified) cynicism and fatigue—not digging into a best-of-mefi discussion of ideas so much as rehashing just how much, as wakko used to say, "America sucks more every day".
So, yeah. That's a long-winded and much more personal expression of why some of these threads just don't really stand out as good front page material. I hate this shitty state of affairs a lot (and find the presumption that we mods are administratively in love with or in thrall to US right-wing party politics equal parts insulting and mind-boggling), but I don't really like to holler about it repetitively on this site and don't see how that kind of behavior represents, in any way, something that makes Metafilter worth visiting, ever, by any thinking person.
And that, up there, is why I try to leave my actual decision-making process re: moderation separate from my personal politics. Because the difference is trying to coolly keep the site from flaming up vs. wanting to smack a whole lot of people with whom I basically ideologically agree upside the fucking head. The latter doesn't seem like a really good way to help run a community, even if it would lead to fewer bizarre goddam accusations about political loyalties.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:45 PM on July 26, 2007 [4 favorites]
This is not a canonical or complete answer, and I'm hopping the rails administratively to get a bit more personal here, but here's an important metric: is shit happening, or are things just shitty? Gonzales is an ass and represents some of the worst bullshit endemic to current US federal politics and the standing administration, but today he just did more of the same. Even Mueller's tasty testimony today was carefully guarded wordsmithing in a slow-burn, nothing-at-all-may-happen grind. Is some serious shit going to go down? Great! Post about it when it does. We've had no shortage of posts about what's Totally Going To Happen and then maybe does, probably doesn't, and those suck.
Now, that's me trying to actually put my (limited but not exactly detached) personal perspective on the subject into an explanation that we do not need a fresh thread just to house ongoing dismay. Yes, it's new that Gonzales said the latest bullshit in the sense that it's not literally, verbatim the same bullshit he was spouting three months ago; but it's hardly mefi-new in the sense that anything concrete has happened. Insofar as people want to present the notion that These Things Matter for defending politics posts against deletion, it'd be a lot easier to accept that at face value if the post actually did contain shit that mattered in any eventful, This Is A New Thing sense. The comments from that thread were characterized mostly by (justified) cynicism and fatigue—not digging into a best-of-mefi discussion of ideas so much as rehashing just how much, as wakko used to say, "America sucks more every day".
So, yeah. That's a long-winded and much more personal expression of why some of these threads just don't really stand out as good front page material. I hate this shitty state of affairs a lot (and find the presumption that we mods are administratively in love with or in thrall to US right-wing party politics equal parts insulting and mind-boggling), but I don't really like to holler about it repetitively on this site and don't see how that kind of behavior represents, in any way, something that makes Metafilter worth visiting, ever, by any thinking person.
And that, up there, is why I try to leave my actual decision-making process re: moderation separate from my personal politics. Because the difference is trying to coolly keep the site from flaming up vs. wanting to smack a whole lot of people with whom I basically ideologically agree upside the fucking head. The latter doesn't seem like a really good way to help run a community, even if it would lead to fewer bizarre goddam accusations about political loyalties.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:45 PM on July 26, 2007 [4 favorites]
BTW -- FWIW -- comments at Huffington Post (where Blumenthal's 'Christians United for Israel' was first posted) have been closed:
posted by ericb at 8:47 PM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
Comments Shut DownFor background regarding Bill O'Reilly and the frou-haha about blog comments -- here's background - 1, 2, 3 and 4."I’ve been informed by the Huffington Post that comments were indeed shut down on my post: “Posts involving Israel inevitably invite a rash of anti-Semitic comments…” Although I approve every comment here, including anti-Semitic ones by commenters like Lizard, I understand the Huffpost’s rationale. If they approved Jew-bashing comments, they would be accused by right-wingers from Bill O’Reilly to Powerline of anti-Semitism. However unfair that is, it’s the way it is. The most disheartening thing is that my video contains extensive footage of extremist evangelicals proclaiming their wish for the 'cleansing of the Earth' of all its unbelievers — an anti-Semitic position if I ever heard one. I suppose hateful people attract each other."
posted by ericb at 8:47 PM on July 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
I suppose hateful people attract each other.
Exactly.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:51 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Exactly.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:51 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
“Second of all, what needs to hapen before posting an update to the gonzo story is acceptable? I mean The FBI chief just directly contradicted him, and they're trying to appoint a special prosecutor. Things seem to be moving quickly at the moment.”
Yeah, and I see that on all my news sources. Everywhere. MetaFilter isn't the fucking newspaper.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:52 PM on July 26, 2007 [6 favorites]
Yeah, and I see that on all my news sources. Everywhere. MetaFilter isn't the fucking newspaper.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:52 PM on July 26, 2007 [6 favorites]
"shitstorm honeypot" should be the new deletion reason. Or a radical/riot grrrrl band; I can't decide.
posted by Tuwa at 9:05 PM on July 26, 2007 [9 favorites]
posted by Tuwa at 9:05 PM on July 26, 2007 [9 favorites]
Or the femme fatale in a Bond-themed corprophilia porno called "For Your Brown-Eye Only".
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:52 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:52 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
Add that to 'Gold(ring)finger' and you've got Bond Goatse!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:08 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:08 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
From Russia With Lube
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:55 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:55 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
Dr. No. 2
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:02 PM on July 26, 2007 [12 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:02 PM on July 26, 2007 [12 favorites]
Proctopussy
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:20 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:20 PM on July 26, 2007 [2 favorites]
You Only Wipe Once
posted by potch at 11:23 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by potch at 11:23 PM on July 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Never Play Nether Again
For Your Rhizome Wee
Sieve and Let Fly
posted by rob511 at 11:47 PM on July 26, 2007
For Your Rhizome Wee
Sieve and Let Fly
posted by rob511 at 11:47 PM on July 26, 2007
I haven't a clue what "rhizome wee" means; it just made me giggle like a schoolgirl.
posted by rob511 at 11:49 PM on July 26, 2007
posted by rob511 at 11:49 PM on July 26, 2007
Casino Rectale.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:17 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:17 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
Those sites tend to get people all riled up about Really Important Things that Must Be Shared on MetaFilter, but from a mile up, this looked like a link to any random political post made any day of the week on Huffington post.
This doesn't make any sense. I'm sure that post "looked" like a random political post but it wasn't. Are we not even evaluating posts on their own merits anymore? Are the mods so hellbent now that the SOP is to delete away at even the slightest whiff at PoliticsFilter? Is Huffington Post such an extremist site that any link to it is so taboo? The previous NR essay, that Christians United video are the best of the web. They present an interesting and serious look into a culture and group that's alien to most people. They're educational and interesting and rise far above the typical 'Bush did X' or 'O'Reilly did Y' here. Really it's just sad that the mods have gone so far overboard and lost all perspective about this to the point where perfectly good FPPs are being deleted for simply stupid reasons. (Though I admit if I had to deal with the bitching on the gray...) As for the 'Mefi doesn't do X well' pseudo-defense I guess if we're going to reward trolls for flaming threads then we shouldn't be surprised about what comes next.
posted by nixerman at 2:47 AM on July 27, 2007 [3 favorites]
This doesn't make any sense. I'm sure that post "looked" like a random political post but it wasn't. Are we not even evaluating posts on their own merits anymore? Are the mods so hellbent now that the SOP is to delete away at even the slightest whiff at PoliticsFilter? Is Huffington Post such an extremist site that any link to it is so taboo? The previous NR essay, that Christians United video are the best of the web. They present an interesting and serious look into a culture and group that's alien to most people. They're educational and interesting and rise far above the typical 'Bush did X' or 'O'Reilly did Y' here. Really it's just sad that the mods have gone so far overboard and lost all perspective about this to the point where perfectly good FPPs are being deleted for simply stupid reasons. (Though I admit if I had to deal with the bitching on the gray...) As for the 'Mefi doesn't do X well' pseudo-defense I guess if we're going to reward trolls for flaming threads then we shouldn't be surprised about what comes next.
posted by nixerman at 2:47 AM on July 27, 2007 [3 favorites]
I'm sorry for shitting in the new thread.
posted by Jeff_Larson at 2:53 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Jeff_Larson at 2:53 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
Blumenthal reminds me of that little kid who did interviews sprinkled with profanity in Wondershowzen. Can't find any clips.
IMO the College Republicans clip was FPP-worthy. The Christians-Who-Hate-Jews-For-Killing-Their-Jesus-But-Want-Israel-to-Last-Long-Enough-for-Rapture are just so obvious in a lot of ways.
posted by bardic at 3:54 AM on July 27, 2007
IMO the College Republicans clip was FPP-worthy. The Christians-Who-Hate-Jews-For-Killing-Their-Jesus-But-Want-Israel-to-Last-Long-Enough-for-Rapture are just so obvious in a lot of ways.
posted by bardic at 3:54 AM on July 27, 2007
adamvasco==loquax?!?
Stop being a whiny little baby and realize that when a post gets deleted, even one you really care about, nothing (and I mean nothing) bad happens. It's like losing page E27 of the paper. No one even fucking notices except for the guy using the classified to sell sex doll bodyparts. Are you that guy?
posted by OmieWise at 4:40 AM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
Stop being a whiny little baby and realize that when a post gets deleted, even one you really care about, nothing (and I mean nothing) bad happens. It's like losing page E27 of the paper. No one even fucking notices except for the guy using the classified to sell sex doll bodyparts. Are you that guy?
posted by OmieWise at 4:40 AM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
I flagged it last time because it was going to be a big load of old shit as they generally are. Looking at the comments within the deletion it was painfully obvious that was how it was going. Why do we need a regular "laugh at the jesus freaks" thread? I sincerely doubt they read MeFi so it's not like you're sticking it to the man or anything. It was going to be a 300 post pile-on with the odd post that was decent and worthwhile. I'm as bad as anyone else - like a moth to a flame I am drawn to give my worthless opinion about a subject that probably won't ever have any influence on my life one way or another.
Sort of like Lohan & co. it's an excuse for me to vent about the stupid shit that keeps this world spinning instead of peace, love and understanding.
posted by longbaugh at 4:52 AM on July 27, 2007
Sort of like Lohan & co. it's an excuse for me to vent about the stupid shit that keeps this world spinning instead of peace, love and understanding.
posted by longbaugh at 4:52 AM on July 27, 2007
I'm sure you're all wondering: yes, yes, but what does JONSON think about this?
I couldn't sleep - thank god you've finally said something.
posted by sgt.serenity at 5:33 AM on July 27, 2007
I couldn't sleep - thank god you've finally said something.
posted by sgt.serenity at 5:33 AM on July 27, 2007
Chastisement acknowledged. Will try to do better.
realize that when a post gets deleted, even one you really care about, nothing (and I mean nothing) bad happens.
That's actually not true. A few minutes after my post was deleted, a couple guys in MeFi jumpsuits came into my house and knocked the drink out of my hand. I didn't put the two together until just now.
posted by Ty Webb at 5:39 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
realize that when a post gets deleted, even one you really care about, nothing (and I mean nothing) bad happens.
That's actually not true. A few minutes after my post was deleted, a couple guys in MeFi jumpsuits came into my house and knocked the drink out of my hand. I didn't put the two together until just now.
posted by Ty Webb at 5:39 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
The solution is clear: Posts containing links to Daily Kos, Huffington, and TPM must be about Lindsay Lohan in order to stay up.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:45 AM on July 27, 2007 [3 favorites]
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:45 AM on July 27, 2007 [3 favorites]
Ty! Welcome back! I hope you stick around; you've always been one of the sanest voices here in political threads.
Oh yeah, they're saying political posts need to be better than they used to need to be, now. Go figure.
posted by mediareport at 6:05 AM on July 27, 2007
Oh yeah, they're saying political posts need to be better than they used to need to be, now. Go figure.
posted by mediareport at 6:05 AM on July 27, 2007
Goldsphincter.
Diarrhea Another Day.
From Russia With Lube
Pooraker.
In Her Majesty's Secret Orifice.
Thunderbowl.
Dr. No. 2
Diamonds Arse Forever
Squirt And Let Dry
Proctopussy
You Only Wipe Once
The Bowl Is Not Enough
Never Play Nether Again
Casino Rectale.
I love you people. I really do. This is what justifies the existence of whiny MetaTalk threads.
Also, cortex's long-winded explanation is right on the money. Wait till something actually happens. I've been reading a lot about the Russian Revolution(s) and surrounding events, and I'm envisioning a timeline something like this:
Oct. 1916: rumors of revolution in St. Petersburg — post axed
Nov. 1916: Milyukov makes speech in Duma practically accusing Tsar's government of treason — post allowed to stay, but lots of comments deleted and warning issued about political posts
Dec. 1916: more rumors of revolution — post axed
Jan. 1917: really serious rumors of revolution! — post axed
Feb. 1917: populace rises, overthrows Tsar — good post!
posted by languagehat at 6:09 AM on July 27, 2007 [8 favorites]
Diarrhea Another Day.
From Russia With Lube
Pooraker.
In Her Majesty's Secret Orifice.
Thunderbowl.
Dr. No. 2
Diamonds Arse Forever
Squirt And Let Dry
Proctopussy
You Only Wipe Once
The Bowl Is Not Enough
Never Play Nether Again
Casino Rectale.
I love you people. I really do. This is what justifies the existence of whiny MetaTalk threads.
Also, cortex's long-winded explanation is right on the money. Wait till something actually happens. I've been reading a lot about the Russian Revolution(s) and surrounding events, and I'm envisioning a timeline something like this:
Oct. 1916: rumors of revolution in St. Petersburg — post axed
Nov. 1916: Milyukov makes speech in Duma practically accusing Tsar's government of treason — post allowed to stay, but lots of comments deleted and warning issued about political posts
Dec. 1916: more rumors of revolution — post axed
Jan. 1917: really serious rumors of revolution! — post axed
Feb. 1917: populace rises, overthrows Tsar — good post!
posted by languagehat at 6:09 AM on July 27, 2007 [8 favorites]
Well, I don't mind saying that I found those Christians adorable. Watching them wear their brightly colored native dress, dancing their native dances, and calling on the help of Joe Lieberman their angry God, I suddenly wished--I am a little embarrassed to admit this--that I could take one home.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:17 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by octobersurprise at 6:17 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
Here's the thing.
I personallyl find these kinds of posts fun and interesting, but I guess I need to just find another blog for them because they don't belong here. And I agree; I'm just too lazy to go to the sort of websites where this material belongs.
I've posted deletion-worthy posts in the past and it occurs to me that a lot of posts put up here are because people see MetaFilter as so central to their browsing experience (as I do) that they feel like if it isn't on MetaFilter then it doesn't exist (kind of similar to people who do all their research on Wikipedia).
Metafilter is a place for special posts, posts you're not likely to see elsewhere, telling you about things you didn't know about, or things you had known about but had forgotten. This is exactly the right website to post about something overwhelmingly obscure, weird, pedantic, didactic. In a sense, MetaFilter is the public television of websites.
A post about an obscure political party of the 1840s is going to make a much better post than the Republic Party of the 2000s. A post about a religion that is dying out is much better than a post rehashing something we already know -- there are a lot of crazy loxians out there.
I personally feel that the front page is getting a bit too crowded with single youtube links and outrage filter. I'm sorry that I myself have contributed in the past with my hastily posted newsfilter back in May. I even, I'm ashamed to admit, posted on an upcoming movie once. I'd hope that my other posts would make up for this.
I think a lot of long-time users have quit going to the blue as often because they're not as interested in what they see there. I really like Metafilter and want it to stay a fascinating and wondrous community of knowledge discovery, not yet another place to hash over political, religious, or cultural beliefs.* We can do it.
* Isn't that what AskMe is for? :-)
posted by Deathalicious at 6:33 AM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
I personallyl find these kinds of posts fun and interesting, but I guess I need to just find another blog for them because they don't belong here. And I agree; I'm just too lazy to go to the sort of websites where this material belongs.
I've posted deletion-worthy posts in the past and it occurs to me that a lot of posts put up here are because people see MetaFilter as so central to their browsing experience (as I do) that they feel like if it isn't on MetaFilter then it doesn't exist (kind of similar to people who do all their research on Wikipedia).
Metafilter is a place for special posts, posts you're not likely to see elsewhere, telling you about things you didn't know about, or things you had known about but had forgotten. This is exactly the right website to post about something overwhelmingly obscure, weird, pedantic, didactic. In a sense, MetaFilter is the public television of websites.
A post about an obscure political party of the 1840s is going to make a much better post than the Republic Party of the 2000s. A post about a religion that is dying out is much better than a post rehashing something we already know -- there are a lot of crazy loxians out there.
I personally feel that the front page is getting a bit too crowded with single youtube links and outrage filter. I'm sorry that I myself have contributed in the past with my hastily posted newsfilter back in May. I even, I'm ashamed to admit, posted on an upcoming movie once. I'd hope that my other posts would make up for this.
I think a lot of long-time users have quit going to the blue as often because they're not as interested in what they see there. I really like Metafilter and want it to stay a fascinating and wondrous community of knowledge discovery, not yet another place to hash over political, religious, or cultural beliefs.* We can do it.
* Isn't that what AskMe is for? :-)
posted by Deathalicious at 6:33 AM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
A few minutes after my post was deleted, a couple guys in MeFi jumpsuits came into my house and knocked the drink out of my hand. I didn't put the two together until just now.
posted by Ty Webb
Um. Yeah. Didn't you hear the part where they said "You better not mention this?" Now that you've let this out, don't be surprised if you have "technical problems" next time you try to post.
About the FPP, though: The video was indeed interesting. In fact, the whole culture around end-times beliefs, the Left Behind books, the role in politics, and how such beliefs do or do not influence the daily lives of its adherents is probably a good subject for a post. The video itself had too much potential to be simply inflammatory without much insight.
As a Christian, I know many people who take apocalyptic passages in the Bible literally, and use the Left Behind books as almost a supplement to scripture. A good post might look into how the current trend in end-times teaching really owes its popularity to Hal Lindsey and his late-70s best-seller-turned-movie The Late Great Planet Earth.
I think Bill Maher (and others) have said "Do you want someone who is looking forward to Armageddon to be the one with his finger on The Button?" It's a legitimate question (which has been asked since at least the Reagan administration), but it deserves more than pointing and laughing. The issue also a huge amount of cultural relevance, is worth discussion and insight, and is probably a good FPP subject. If I were going to tackle it, I'd run it by one of the admins first. They are always willing to help us keep the quality of the posts high, and it will save time, frustration, and a MeTa to know ahead if it's worth posting or not.
posted by The Deej at 6:35 AM on July 27, 2007
posted by Ty Webb
Um. Yeah. Didn't you hear the part where they said "You better not mention this?" Now that you've let this out, don't be surprised if you have "technical problems" next time you try to post.
About the FPP, though: The video was indeed interesting. In fact, the whole culture around end-times beliefs, the Left Behind books, the role in politics, and how such beliefs do or do not influence the daily lives of its adherents is probably a good subject for a post. The video itself had too much potential to be simply inflammatory without much insight.
As a Christian, I know many people who take apocalyptic passages in the Bible literally, and use the Left Behind books as almost a supplement to scripture. A good post might look into how the current trend in end-times teaching really owes its popularity to Hal Lindsey and his late-70s best-seller-turned-movie The Late Great Planet Earth.
I think Bill Maher (and others) have said "Do you want someone who is looking forward to Armageddon to be the one with his finger on The Button?" It's a legitimate question (which has been asked since at least the Reagan administration), but it deserves more than pointing and laughing. The issue also a huge amount of cultural relevance, is worth discussion and insight, and is probably a good FPP subject. If I were going to tackle it, I'd run it by one of the admins first. They are always willing to help us keep the quality of the posts high, and it will save time, frustration, and a MeTa to know ahead if it's worth posting or not.
posted by The Deej at 6:35 AM on July 27, 2007
I find Lohan's views on habeus corpus refreshingly vacant.
However:
they're not the main focus of the site
Whatever that might be.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:34 AM on July 27, 2007
However:
they're not the main focus of the site
Whatever that might be.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:34 AM on July 27, 2007
(I'm not asking that rhetorically, I'm actually curious. There will probably be some major developments soon. I'll let someone else post on this topic, but I am curious about what would need to happen for a post on this topic to stay)
posted by delmoi at 10:40 PM on July 26
Step 1: log on to blogger.com
Step 2: link and write about whatever you feel is important about this topic.
Step 3: hit post.
There ya go. You now have a step-by-step explanation on how you can make the post you want to make about Gonzalez that will not be subject to the quality restrictions here on Metafilter.
posted by dios at 7:46 AM on July 27, 2007
posted by delmoi at 10:40 PM on July 26
Step 1: log on to blogger.com
Step 2: link and write about whatever you feel is important about this topic.
Step 3: hit post.
There ya go. You now have a step-by-step explanation on how you can make the post you want to make about Gonzalez that will not be subject to the quality restrictions here on Metafilter.
posted by dios at 7:46 AM on July 27, 2007
1. This is not a democracy.
2. I hate that cocksucker that ate my cursor.
posted by Mister_A at 8:10 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
2. I hate that cocksucker that ate my cursor.
posted by Mister_A at 8:10 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
Whoa. Guess I should have stayed up later.
googly, you're fishing for some black and white rules.
re-read what mediareport and stan chin have said: Politics posts do need to be better than regular posts. And there aren't any hard and fast rules you can apply with 100% accuracy to everything, we're just trying to keep the shit slinging to a minimum.
posted by mathowie at 11:16 PM on July 26 [1 favorite +] [!]
I get it. It makes sense to me now why political hot-topic posts should be held to a higher standard of judgment than other posts. And like I said, I think all the mods generally exercise excellent judgment with the scythe. Thanks for all the illuminating responses.
posted by googly at 8:11 AM on July 27, 2007
googly, you're fishing for some black and white rules.
re-read what mediareport and stan chin have said: Politics posts do need to be better than regular posts. And there aren't any hard and fast rules you can apply with 100% accuracy to everything, we're just trying to keep the shit slinging to a minimum.
posted by mathowie at 11:16 PM on July 26 [1 favorite +] [!]
I get it. It makes sense to me now why political hot-topic posts should be held to a higher standard of judgment than other posts. And like I said, I think all the mods generally exercise excellent judgment with the scythe. Thanks for all the illuminating responses.
posted by googly at 8:11 AM on July 27, 2007
A few minutes after my post was deleted, a couple guys in MeFi jumpsuits came into my house and knocked the drink out of my hand.
they totally arrived and left in a #006699 blue stealth helicopter.
posted by quonsar at 8:17 AM on July 27, 2007
they totally arrived and left in a #006699 blue stealth helicopter.
posted by quonsar at 8:17 AM on July 27, 2007
use the Left Behind books as almost a supplement to scripture
something which really grinds my Savior's ass.
posted by quonsar at 8:19 AM on July 27, 2007
something which really grinds my Savior's ass.
posted by quonsar at 8:19 AM on July 27, 2007
The more moderation that tends to remove single-link or crappy "controversial" posts with a higher probability than single-link or crappy "non-controversial" posts, the greater the tendency of MeFi to evolve into lumpy porridge-like blend of Fark, AOL, and People.
posted by meehawl at 8:40 AM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by meehawl at 8:40 AM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
That game with the tiny japanese man trying to eat my cursor is the greatest thing ever linked to on Mefi. ever. I cannot fathom his completely unknowable hatred of my cursor, or why he wears a peach jumpsuit, but playing a constant game of keep away with a hyperactive incredibly imaginative japanese psychopath provides me with endless pleasure. and I also hate that cocksucker that ate my cursor.
posted by shmegegge at 10:06 AM on July 27, 2007
posted by shmegegge at 10:06 AM on July 27, 2007
C'mon, now.
I am loathe of the grey. But as we can't answer in the blue yet again:
Karl Rove, Executive Director of CR.
Lee Atwater, Chairman of CR (after defeating Terry Dolan).
What group would be most likely to and does most often sponsor "members of the Project for the New American Century" appearing on campuses?
The CR has been and is it for breeding who will drive your world. Few organization are more deserving of holding up to the light of day.
Ever think how wrong it is you never see the unvarnished story on the news or in the papers? Think that professional journalism has fallen down on the job? Or that when it eeks out in some hastily written blog or under-produced documentary that it doesn't get picked up and refined and carried by more voices? And that wouldn't it be great if there were popular community driven media where it wouldn't just get filtered out when it does, uh, "happen?" Could I have ever asked myself, why doesn't the civic conversation converge onto what you know is most on most everyone's minds yet keeps being told to behave and stay in its place in every quarter? Must all societies devolve into some Hannah Arendt nightmare of the banal? I'm not just talking about the blogoborg. I just mean, how about in real, everyday life? You know, they kind that "happens" and you so much just want to "be" in. And that would just naturally spill over into most all generalized community media, like it couldn't possibly be held back.
I never think that. Nobody else does either, from what I observe. I think we're all like languagehat. We'd rather not deal with anything until it blows by us. That's why we have moderators, no? To keep us in the moment? So we can just be our authentic folky selves? Because we certainly aren't capable of that ourselves. Be careful imagining nothingness. You might get what you wish for.
No, here's what I think. Metafilter went in the toilet when (I dunno, maybe when dios joined and made it seem like a good idea for a couple of seconds) it started adding more capricious moderators who think like this:
The criteria for deletion are volatile and change from day to day and subject to subject.
(Man, it really shows, too.) But no, who really think like this:
And that, up there, is why I try to leave my actual decision-making process re: moderation separate from my personal politics. Because the difference is trying to coolly keep the site from flaming up vs. wanting to smack a whole lot of people with whom I basically ideologically agree upside the fucking head. The latter doesn't seem like a really good way to help run a community, even if it would lead to fewer bizarre goddam accusations about political loyalties.
Because, you know, judgment is a separate thing from judgement.
I really wish a couple of people had more time to spend setting lists of user names to music or helping people avoid getting their library loans monitored by fatherland security. Cuz this place was a lot better when they did. If this seems harsh, I've only wanted to make the comment about a hundred times but held back out of respect that just maybe this volatility would settle down to some reasonable level of restraint, focus on the fuckheads, and be more resilient to accusations of loyalties to humanity.
I've got a friend who wrote a great little book about small community driven publications in early twentieth century Harlem. Those publications were a mix of culture and politics, as it's seemed for generations that persons of letters might have views on the world worth airing. Their volume of their readership was basically on par with, say, Metafilter. They spawned a lot of great writers. And they attracted other presumed great writers like Eliot and Pound and Joyce who happened to think, well, it might be better for readership and advertizers if those publications weren't so potentially controversial and just stuck to poems and short stories. And before you knew it, the writers who started and grew those publications and were its heart and soul, like Philip Randolph, Chandler Owen, Max Eastman, Randolph Bourne, and John Reed, were out on their asses. And Pound and Eliot, as we know, didn't go on to have anything to say about politics.
It would be great if history didn't have to repeat itself. Not like we're overrunneth with great writers. But if every little corner of the world where there is a logical mix of culture and politics doesn't have to get sanitized by new overlords just looking out for someone else's interests, what we that be like? Possibly like the pre-fair and balanced Metafilter I originally joined, I think. I used to be able to look forward to Metafilter culling out things like the CR chickenhawks video for me to see without fear of being bombarded with 911 truth. Now it's just all A.C. Slater, all the time. Mods, this is your legacy. This is how you'll be able to say you steered the ship.
I suppose the tendency is too strong and requires too much strength to expect for $5. At first it was just an occasionally questionable 'let's keep amberglow and dios from nuking each other' trend. And it's turned into this: documentary politics a no. Really, don't let it worry you that metawhine has become recursive or the most frequently posted theme therein has become reference to multiple choice answers about why my post was deleted. It means nothing.
This about sums it up. There's a whole world outside of the apparently comfy bubble of why can't we all just get along Americanisms.
Metafilter is nothing like DailyKos or newsfilter, although anyone who spends any significant time on Metafilter probably needs a little newsfilter after all the hours spent in quaint and quirky youtubery. Despite my misgivings about the heavy hands of some of our newer moderators, I think the mods have done a good job of keeping it from going down the kosplay path. Metafilter's got enough of its own farky gawkerness sprinkled liberally to keep even the most obsessed narcissist happily humming along. It's good knowing joohate and lolcoulter will get the slam. But just because a speck of something might be of interest to one audience doesn't mean it has no other place anywhere. Mods, keep that in mind, please, as you go about not being "robots hitting a checklist." Because your actual checklist has become painfully obvious and is crappy in the extreme. I'm getting tired of having the main feeling I go away with from reading Metafilter being disgust over the increasing number of shitty deletions, their shitty justifications, and their blasé defenders. I would not have joined Metafilter if it was like this when I joined and it wasn't. It was a place where I could count on someone bringing things like Blumenthal's videos to my attention in the context of many other things alongside it and I liked that. A lot. It was refreshingly different. Not because of the member base, which was always both sketchy and delightful both before and after the five dollar divide. But because of how it was moderated. I want that Metafilter back. You know, the one where #1 was too busy to mess with being so petty and still either too poor or too controlling to hire anyone else to be for him.
adamvasco's latest reformulation of the ericb's proposal for discussion is just the sort of outlet we should be promoting. He took the criticisms and made them moot. It's about a writer/videographer worthy of the worthwhile controversy he ignites. Deleting it was just plain disrespectful. The excuses don't hold even if we were spared the kthnxbye slap. Don't hide behind 'but we're still in Metatalk with it.' After 120 comments, that reeks of 'but we've already decided how we're going to handle this.' What adamvasco did was a pro-active remedy and it was righteously right on. Jessamyn, you suck for this and deserve to be told so. I've met you face to face, sat down to a home cooked meal with you and real life friends in common, and it was good. Thus I am not hiding behind a wall of anonymity for it saying it. There are a great many awesome things you do for us. Don't fuck it up like this. I'm sure it can't be easy. I assume the pay is slim to none. But that was a spiteful, nasty, and lazy thinking thing to do.
Now, back to naming our next Bond parody in lieu of image tags linking to tubgirl pics. It's what I signed up for.
posted by 3.2.3 at 10:20 AM on July 27, 2007 [9 favorites]
I am loathe of the grey. But as we can't answer in the blue yet again:
Karl Rove, Executive Director of CR.
Lee Atwater, Chairman of CR (after defeating Terry Dolan).
What group would be most likely to and does most often sponsor "members of the Project for the New American Century" appearing on campuses?
The CR has been and is it for breeding who will drive your world. Few organization are more deserving of holding up to the light of day.
Ever think how wrong it is you never see the unvarnished story on the news or in the papers? Think that professional journalism has fallen down on the job? Or that when it eeks out in some hastily written blog or under-produced documentary that it doesn't get picked up and refined and carried by more voices? And that wouldn't it be great if there were popular community driven media where it wouldn't just get filtered out when it does, uh, "happen?" Could I have ever asked myself, why doesn't the civic conversation converge onto what you know is most on most everyone's minds yet keeps being told to behave and stay in its place in every quarter? Must all societies devolve into some Hannah Arendt nightmare of the banal? I'm not just talking about the blogoborg. I just mean, how about in real, everyday life? You know, they kind that "happens" and you so much just want to "be" in. And that would just naturally spill over into most all generalized community media, like it couldn't possibly be held back.
I never think that. Nobody else does either, from what I observe. I think we're all like languagehat. We'd rather not deal with anything until it blows by us. That's why we have moderators, no? To keep us in the moment? So we can just be our authentic folky selves? Because we certainly aren't capable of that ourselves. Be careful imagining nothingness. You might get what you wish for.
No, here's what I think. Metafilter went in the toilet when (I dunno, maybe when dios joined and made it seem like a good idea for a couple of seconds) it started adding more capricious moderators who think like this:
The criteria for deletion are volatile and change from day to day and subject to subject.
(Man, it really shows, too.) But no, who really think like this:
And that, up there, is why I try to leave my actual decision-making process re: moderation separate from my personal politics. Because the difference is trying to coolly keep the site from flaming up vs. wanting to smack a whole lot of people with whom I basically ideologically agree upside the fucking head. The latter doesn't seem like a really good way to help run a community, even if it would lead to fewer bizarre goddam accusations about political loyalties.
Because, you know, judgment is a separate thing from judgement.
I really wish a couple of people had more time to spend setting lists of user names to music or helping people avoid getting their library loans monitored by fatherland security. Cuz this place was a lot better when they did. If this seems harsh, I've only wanted to make the comment about a hundred times but held back out of respect that just maybe this volatility would settle down to some reasonable level of restraint, focus on the fuckheads, and be more resilient to accusations of loyalties to humanity.
I've got a friend who wrote a great little book about small community driven publications in early twentieth century Harlem. Those publications were a mix of culture and politics, as it's seemed for generations that persons of letters might have views on the world worth airing. Their volume of their readership was basically on par with, say, Metafilter. They spawned a lot of great writers. And they attracted other presumed great writers like Eliot and Pound and Joyce who happened to think, well, it might be better for readership and advertizers if those publications weren't so potentially controversial and just stuck to poems and short stories. And before you knew it, the writers who started and grew those publications and were its heart and soul, like Philip Randolph, Chandler Owen, Max Eastman, Randolph Bourne, and John Reed, were out on their asses. And Pound and Eliot, as we know, didn't go on to have anything to say about politics.
It would be great if history didn't have to repeat itself. Not like we're overrunneth with great writers. But if every little corner of the world where there is a logical mix of culture and politics doesn't have to get sanitized by new overlords just looking out for someone else's interests, what we that be like? Possibly like the pre-fair and balanced Metafilter I originally joined, I think. I used to be able to look forward to Metafilter culling out things like the CR chickenhawks video for me to see without fear of being bombarded with 911 truth. Now it's just all A.C. Slater, all the time. Mods, this is your legacy. This is how you'll be able to say you steered the ship.
I suppose the tendency is too strong and requires too much strength to expect for $5. At first it was just an occasionally questionable 'let's keep amberglow and dios from nuking each other' trend. And it's turned into this: documentary politics a no. Really, don't let it worry you that metawhine has become recursive or the most frequently posted theme therein has become reference to multiple choice answers about why my post was deleted. It means nothing.
This about sums it up. There's a whole world outside of the apparently comfy bubble of why can't we all just get along Americanisms.
Metafilter is nothing like DailyKos or newsfilter, although anyone who spends any significant time on Metafilter probably needs a little newsfilter after all the hours spent in quaint and quirky youtubery. Despite my misgivings about the heavy hands of some of our newer moderators, I think the mods have done a good job of keeping it from going down the kosplay path. Metafilter's got enough of its own farky gawkerness sprinkled liberally to keep even the most obsessed narcissist happily humming along. It's good knowing joohate and lolcoulter will get the slam. But just because a speck of something might be of interest to one audience doesn't mean it has no other place anywhere. Mods, keep that in mind, please, as you go about not being "robots hitting a checklist." Because your actual checklist has become painfully obvious and is crappy in the extreme. I'm getting tired of having the main feeling I go away with from reading Metafilter being disgust over the increasing number of shitty deletions, their shitty justifications, and their blasé defenders. I would not have joined Metafilter if it was like this when I joined and it wasn't. It was a place where I could count on someone bringing things like Blumenthal's videos to my attention in the context of many other things alongside it and I liked that. A lot. It was refreshingly different. Not because of the member base, which was always both sketchy and delightful both before and after the five dollar divide. But because of how it was moderated. I want that Metafilter back. You know, the one where #1 was too busy to mess with being so petty and still either too poor or too controlling to hire anyone else to be for him.
adamvasco's latest reformulation of the ericb's proposal for discussion is just the sort of outlet we should be promoting. He took the criticisms and made them moot. It's about a writer/videographer worthy of the worthwhile controversy he ignites. Deleting it was just plain disrespectful. The excuses don't hold even if we were spared the kthnxbye slap. Don't hide behind 'but we're still in Metatalk with it.' After 120 comments, that reeks of 'but we've already decided how we're going to handle this.' What adamvasco did was a pro-active remedy and it was righteously right on. Jessamyn, you suck for this and deserve to be told so. I've met you face to face, sat down to a home cooked meal with you and real life friends in common, and it was good. Thus I am not hiding behind a wall of anonymity for it saying it. There are a great many awesome things you do for us. Don't fuck it up like this. I'm sure it can't be easy. I assume the pay is slim to none. But that was a spiteful, nasty, and lazy thinking thing to do.
Now, back to naming our next Bond parody in lieu of image tags linking to tubgirl pics. It's what I signed up for.
posted by 3.2.3 at 10:20 AM on July 27, 2007 [9 favorites]
"The more moderation that tends to remove single-link or crappy "controversial" posts with a higher probability than single-link or crappy "non-controversial" posts, the greater the tendency of MeFi to evolve into lumpy porridge-like blend of Fark, AOL, and People."
Bullshit. On the visible page right now, I can count at least five great posts, a handful of very good posts, and at least ten posts that are even at our average level still better than Fark, AOL or People.
We do good here. But a combination of people not realizing that Metafilter is not the only goddamned forum on the internet (thus mistaking import of message for relevancy here) and the throb of incessant jackassery in some hotbutton threads means that we don't do some things well at all. For everyone who didn't know about the current developments with Gonzo— read your fucking newspapers. Or hell, even comment in a thread that's tangentially related, and you'll see the amberglow and ericb news updates come trickling in for days.
Metafilter is not fucking broken, and I'm sick to death of all the motherfucking misplaced outrage. It's like any time that we're all supposed to be upset about whateverthefuck, and it gets deleted, all that outrage just gets channeled into the most bitter and venal snarking against the mods. And yeah, I disagree with them sometimes, but Christ, after reading the last couple days of MeTa, I can't help but wonder why the fuck they'd ever want to put up with such a gang of assholes always riding them about every fucking decision they make instead of just shutting the fuck up and enjoying the rest of the great posts about art, culture, music, history, or the best of the motherfucking web.
AAARRRRRRRRRRG!
posted by klangklangston at 10:22 AM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
Bullshit. On the visible page right now, I can count at least five great posts, a handful of very good posts, and at least ten posts that are even at our average level still better than Fark, AOL or People.
We do good here. But a combination of people not realizing that Metafilter is not the only goddamned forum on the internet (thus mistaking import of message for relevancy here) and the throb of incessant jackassery in some hotbutton threads means that we don't do some things well at all. For everyone who didn't know about the current developments with Gonzo— read your fucking newspapers. Or hell, even comment in a thread that's tangentially related, and you'll see the amberglow and ericb news updates come trickling in for days.
Metafilter is not fucking broken, and I'm sick to death of all the motherfucking misplaced outrage. It's like any time that we're all supposed to be upset about whateverthefuck, and it gets deleted, all that outrage just gets channeled into the most bitter and venal snarking against the mods. And yeah, I disagree with them sometimes, but Christ, after reading the last couple days of MeTa, I can't help but wonder why the fuck they'd ever want to put up with such a gang of assholes always riding them about every fucking decision they make instead of just shutting the fuck up and enjoying the rest of the great posts about art, culture, music, history, or the best of the motherfucking web.
AAARRRRRRRRRRG!
posted by klangklangston at 10:22 AM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
Breaking news -- OMG!!! Nicole Richie headed to jail!!! FPP with multiple (i.e. researched, Googled) links to follow.
posted by ericb at 10:29 AM on July 27, 2007
posted by ericb at 10:29 AM on July 27, 2007
"Metafilter is nothing like DailyKos or newsfilter, although anyone who spends any significant time on Metafilter probably needs a little newsfilter after all the hours spent in quaint and quirky youtubery."
Fuck you, no. Y'know why? I read three newspapers a day, thank you very much. Don't presume everyone is the goddamned ignorant shithead that you are, y'know?
"adamvasco's latest reformulation of the ericb's proposal for discussion is just the sort of outlet we should be promoting. He took the criticisms and made them moot."
Fuck you, no. Y'know why? Because he didn't render the criticisms moot. He linked to the front page of fucking Salon, as if that was a supporting point. He padded out needlessly on what was a quirky bit of youtubery that, you know, should get fucking filtered out. If he had added, I dunno, serious context about the organization, or some web-only content, then maybe it should stay. Otherwise, it was so fucking thin and transparent, so much of a "fuck you" to the mods and the membership, that he should be fucking banned and his house burned down. And if you don't fucking get that, fuck you too.
posted by klangklangston at 10:29 AM on July 27, 2007
Fuck you, no. Y'know why? I read three newspapers a day, thank you very much. Don't presume everyone is the goddamned ignorant shithead that you are, y'know?
"adamvasco's latest reformulation of the ericb's proposal for discussion is just the sort of outlet we should be promoting. He took the criticisms and made them moot."
Fuck you, no. Y'know why? Because he didn't render the criticisms moot. He linked to the front page of fucking Salon, as if that was a supporting point. He padded out needlessly on what was a quirky bit of youtubery that, you know, should get fucking filtered out. If he had added, I dunno, serious context about the organization, or some web-only content, then maybe it should stay. Otherwise, it was so fucking thin and transparent, so much of a "fuck you" to the mods and the membership, that he should be fucking banned and his house burned down. And if you don't fucking get that, fuck you too.
posted by klangklangston at 10:29 AM on July 27, 2007
Man, 3.2.3 typed a lot just to make an almost completely worthless, barely coherent and entirely meanspirited point.
posted by shmegegge at 10:38 AM on July 27, 2007 [5 favorites]
posted by shmegegge at 10:38 AM on July 27, 2007 [5 favorites]
Works for me. Thanks. The charges will appear on your next statement.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:45 AM on July 27, 2007
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:45 AM on July 27, 2007
"adamvasco's latest reformulation of the ericb's proposal for discussion is just the sort of outlet we should be promoting. He took the criticisms and made them moot."
Fuck you, no. Y'know why? Because he didn't render the criticisms moot. He linked to the front page of fucking Salon, as if that was a supporting point. He padded out needlessly on what was a quirky bit of youtubery that, you know, should get fucking filtered out.
I'm with klang on this one. My reformulated FPP was meant to be a joke: an overpadded one (just like the Lindsay Lohan FPP) with an attempt to "slip in" the controversial video(s).
I considered the comment "Tell you what: repost it, throw in some wikipedia links on Max Blumenthal and Washington D.C. and maybe a few other political blogs and it will qualify as 'well-researched'" to indeed be satirical. I crafted an FPP following those guidelines I and posted it to this thread. I would not have considered worthy on the blue (sorry, adamvasco). If I had, I, myself, would have posted it there.
posted by ericb at 10:45 AM on July 27, 2007
Fuck you, no. Y'know why? Because he didn't render the criticisms moot. He linked to the front page of fucking Salon, as if that was a supporting point. He padded out needlessly on what was a quirky bit of youtubery that, you know, should get fucking filtered out.
I'm with klang on this one. My reformulated FPP was meant to be a joke: an overpadded one (just like the Lindsay Lohan FPP) with an attempt to "slip in" the controversial video(s).
I considered the comment "Tell you what: repost it, throw in some wikipedia links on Max Blumenthal and Washington D.C. and maybe a few other political blogs and it will qualify as 'well-researched'" to indeed be satirical. I crafted an FPP following those guidelines I and posted it to this thread. I would not have considered worthy on the blue (sorry, adamvasco). If I had, I, myself, would have posted it there.
posted by ericb at 10:45 AM on July 27, 2007
Breaking news -- OMG!!! Nicole Richie headed to jail!!! FPP with multiple (i.e. researched, Googled) links to follow.
her pregnancy is more interesting than her jail time.
posted by Stynxno at 10:45 AM on July 27, 2007
her pregnancy is more interesting than her jail time.
posted by Stynxno at 10:45 AM on July 27, 2007
3.2.3 done broke my scroll wheel!
posted by brain_drain at 10:46 AM on July 27, 2007
posted by brain_drain at 10:46 AM on July 27, 2007
Works for me. Thanks. The charges will appear on your next statement.
Open bar -- in honor of Burhanistan's generosity -- at the Mai Tai Bar at the Royal Hawaiian Hotel.
posted by ericb at 10:50 AM on July 27, 2007
Open bar -- in honor of Burhanistan's generosity -- at the Mai Tai Bar at the Royal Hawaiian Hotel.
posted by ericb at 10:50 AM on July 27, 2007
ARRIVED VENICE STOP STREETS UNDERWATER STOP ADVISE FULL STOP
posted by trondant at 10:51 AM on July 27, 2007
posted by trondant at 10:51 AM on July 27, 2007
Man, 3.2.3 typed a lot...
But s/he and jessamyn have broken bread together. He has been seriously aggrieved! I personally liked how it was a very long and awesome letter in an intervention tone you'd write if your friend had a serious heroin problem and it was tearing the relationship apart.
posted by Stan Chin at 10:51 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
But s/he and jessamyn have broken bread together. He has been seriously aggrieved! I personally liked how it was a very long and awesome letter in an intervention tone you'd write if your friend had a serious heroin problem and it was tearing the relationship apart.
posted by Stan Chin at 10:51 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
I considered the comment "Tell you what: repost it, throw in some wikipedia links on Max Blumenthal and Washington D.C. and maybe a few other political blogs and it will qualify as 'well-researched'" to indeed be satirical.
Just to confirm that ericb's satire-o-meter is well calibrated.
posted by googly at 10:58 AM on July 27, 2007
Just to confirm that ericb's satire-o-meter is well calibrated.
posted by googly at 10:58 AM on July 27, 2007
I've only wanted to make the comment about a hundred times but held back out of respect that just maybe this volatility would settle down to some reasonable level of restraint, focus on the fuckheads, and be more resilient to accusations of loyalties to humanity.
Well thank god you finally couldn't take it anymore and came down from the mountain, because your comment was so trenchant, insightful, and full of fresh, reasoned opinions. I think it really took this discourse to a whole new level.
Now it's just all A.C. Slater, all the time.
I had to Google who that was. You have the fucking gall to look down your nose at me because I prefer to get my news and information from someplace other than MeFi, and in the next breath make a reference that, regardless its pejorative context, marks you as a cultural moron? Up yours, buckaroo.
avoid getting their library loans monitored by fatherland security
I love how you used the actions of someone who actively opposes governmental abuses of power to trash her. So classy, with just a soupcon of resentful cowardice. Keep fighting the good fight, paesano.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:11 AM on July 27, 2007
Well thank god you finally couldn't take it anymore and came down from the mountain, because your comment was so trenchant, insightful, and full of fresh, reasoned opinions. I think it really took this discourse to a whole new level.
Now it's just all A.C. Slater, all the time.
I had to Google who that was. You have the fucking gall to look down your nose at me because I prefer to get my news and information from someplace other than MeFi, and in the next breath make a reference that, regardless its pejorative context, marks you as a cultural moron? Up yours, buckaroo.
avoid getting their library loans monitored by fatherland security
I love how you used the actions of someone who actively opposes governmental abuses of power to trash her. So classy, with just a soupcon of resentful cowardice. Keep fighting the good fight, paesano.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:11 AM on July 27, 2007
Single-link NewsFilter posts (and it's also an Associated Press story) about Pat Tillman are OK?
posted by kirkaracha at 11:15 AM on July 27, 2007
posted by kirkaracha at 11:15 AM on July 27, 2007
It's a whole lot better than the stinker from last night. I'm not in love with it, but (contrary to prevailing wisdom) that doesn't actually make for an automatic deletion.
A rash of Tillmanfilter followups in the next few days, mind you: dev null.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:21 AM on July 27, 2007
A rash of Tillmanfilter followups in the next few days, mind you: dev null.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:21 AM on July 27, 2007
Jessamyn, you suck for this and deserve to be told so. I've met you face to face, sat down to a home cooked meal with you and real life friends in common, and it was good. Thus I am not hiding behind a wall of anonymity for it saying it. There are a great many awesome things you do for us. Don't fuck it up like this.
Note to self: do not sit down to home cooked meal with 3.2.3.
posted by kosem at 11:23 AM on July 27, 2007
Note to self: do not sit down to home cooked meal with 3.2.3.
posted by kosem at 11:23 AM on July 27, 2007
Single-link NewsFilter posts (and it's also an Associated Press story) about Pat Tillman are OK?
Well it's better than the one that was deleted.
posted by The Deej at 11:23 AM on July 27, 2007
Well it's better than the one that was deleted.
posted by The Deej at 11:23 AM on July 27, 2007
sat down to a home cooked meal with you
I wouldn't eat the next one, if I were you.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:26 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't eat the next one, if I were you.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:26 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'm going to name my children after the mods of this site. That way, anytime they do something that ticks me off, I can say, HOW DARE YOU DO THIS TO ME, I NAMED MY CHILDREN AFTER YOU!!!!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:29 AM on July 27, 2007 [11 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:29 AM on July 27, 2007 [11 favorites]
Or, when you get a post or comment deleted you can take it out on the appropriate child.
posted by Tenuki at 11:41 AM on July 27, 2007
posted by Tenuki at 11:41 AM on July 27, 2007
3.2.3--Can you tell me what changed between the time you joined and the time I did, because I joined this site because crappy posts like this get deleted here, and it was only two days after you did.
posted by OmieWise at 11:50 AM on July 27, 2007
posted by OmieWise at 11:50 AM on July 27, 2007
I'd join this comment-fest, but my cursor is missing. Where did that guy go?
posted by davejay at 11:53 AM on July 27, 2007
posted by davejay at 11:53 AM on July 27, 2007
Personal attackery aside I agree with what 3.2.3 has to say.
I also sympathize with Jessamattacortexamyn as I used to mod at a large and contentious message board and it ain't easy. For the most part I think they do a great job.
Also, whenever I read the name 'Max Blumenthal' I think someone is referring to the main character in Rushmore.
posted by jtron at 11:54 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
I also sympathize with Jessamattacortexamyn as I used to mod at a large and contentious message board and it ain't easy. For the most part I think they do a great job.
Also, whenever I read the name 'Max Blumenthal' I think someone is referring to the main character in Rushmore.
posted by jtron at 11:54 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
But a combination of people not realizing that Metafilter is not the only goddamned forum on the internet (thus mistaking import of message for relevancy here) and the throb of incessant jackassery in some hotbutton threads means that we don't do some things well at all.
What? (Really, the signal-to-noise ratio in the gray is absolutely extraordinary.) Back to the point: the original post was fine as is and it was deleted for just plain bad reasons. The video is not "look at these assholes" unless you're a mindless twit who believes every critical look at some group is equivalent to LOL$GROUP. And deleting a post just because it's link to a political blog is just plain silly. I can't even imagine the logic going on there unless perhaps the mods are now terribly afraid that if they a single HuffPo link through they'll have to let them all through. Anyways this wouldn't even be such a problem if we weren't seeing such an ongoing pattern of bad deletions. It almost seems like we've entered some sort of weird feedback loop where the more meaty and actually controversial a political post is the more likely it is to be deleted. Meanwhile single-link BS about various drama continue to slip in under the radar. This is wrong. At this point I'd rather see political posts just banned outright then dealing with this stupid game where one has to underestimate the mods before deciding to take the time to contribute to a thread. It would be a real loss to the site but it'd probably be less frustrating then having to deal with the current situation.
posted by nixerman at 12:01 PM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
What? (Really, the signal-to-noise ratio in the gray is absolutely extraordinary.) Back to the point: the original post was fine as is and it was deleted for just plain bad reasons. The video is not "look at these assholes" unless you're a mindless twit who believes every critical look at some group is equivalent to LOL$GROUP. And deleting a post just because it's link to a political blog is just plain silly. I can't even imagine the logic going on there unless perhaps the mods are now terribly afraid that if they a single HuffPo link through they'll have to let them all through. Anyways this wouldn't even be such a problem if we weren't seeing such an ongoing pattern of bad deletions. It almost seems like we've entered some sort of weird feedback loop where the more meaty and actually controversial a political post is the more likely it is to be deleted. Meanwhile single-link BS about various drama continue to slip in under the radar. This is wrong. At this point I'd rather see political posts just banned outright then dealing with this stupid game where one has to underestimate the mods before deciding to take the time to contribute to a thread. It would be a real loss to the site but it'd probably be less frustrating then having to deal with the current situation.
posted by nixerman at 12:01 PM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
People like 3.2.3 are exactly the sort of people we need to chase away from MetaFilter. Hopefully this comment will aid that noble effort in some small way.
I'm serious. There's this one sort of personality that latches on to one single community and then endeavors to reshape it into his/her image, especially with regard to their politics and in that it needs to serve all of their needs, from friend-making to political activism. These people are unable to meet small communities on those communities' terms, letting each be whatever it has been. No, the moment they join they have an agenda of How To Make It Better...which is pretty much the same agenda they had for their last group until they gave up in disgust and moved on. As they usually do.
MetaFilter doesn't need to save the world and it doesn't need to be a news aggregator and it doesn't need to be a chat site. It merely needs to keep being what it has been, which has proven to be very popular.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:02 PM on July 27, 2007 [5 favorites]
I'm serious. There's this one sort of personality that latches on to one single community and then endeavors to reshape it into his/her image, especially with regard to their politics and in that it needs to serve all of their needs, from friend-making to political activism. These people are unable to meet small communities on those communities' terms, letting each be whatever it has been. No, the moment they join they have an agenda of How To Make It Better...which is pretty much the same agenda they had for their last group until they gave up in disgust and moved on. As they usually do.
MetaFilter doesn't need to save the world and it doesn't need to be a news aggregator and it doesn't need to be a chat site. It merely needs to keep being what it has been, which has proven to be very popular.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:02 PM on July 27, 2007 [5 favorites]
people who can't keep thier hands off the wheel shouldn't drive the car.
posted by quonsar at 12:08 PM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by quonsar at 12:08 PM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
It's not rules, it's just editing.
Look, I have had FPPs and comments deleted that a dozen random MeFites would probably agree with me were bad deletions. And comment deletions don't get a written reason. Once I had spent 5 or 10 minutes writing a comment for a thread (spending that much time to be sure it conformed to the guidelines) only to have it deleted before I could even see it myself! Meanwhile, in the same thread there were comments that I felt clearly ignored the guidelines. Those comments are still there.
Yes, I was pissed. For about 2 seconds. It's never going to be "fair." There is not a checklist or a score sheet. It's just editing. I decided from day one that I would not take deletions personally, any more than I would the local newspaper deciding to not print a letter to the editor. Matt owns this site, and he entrusts the editing to the admins. I don't have a right to be heard here. It's a private enterprise. If I ever get pissed enough, I guess I'll stop posting.
These types of threads can be useful, however. It's good to hash it out once in a while. I'm sure it gives understanding to some people, it pisses off other people, and it may give the admins some things to chew on as the site continues to grow, and the challenges become greater.
posted by The Deej at 12:13 PM on July 27, 2007
Look, I have had FPPs and comments deleted that a dozen random MeFites would probably agree with me were bad deletions. And comment deletions don't get a written reason. Once I had spent 5 or 10 minutes writing a comment for a thread (spending that much time to be sure it conformed to the guidelines) only to have it deleted before I could even see it myself! Meanwhile, in the same thread there were comments that I felt clearly ignored the guidelines. Those comments are still there.
Yes, I was pissed. For about 2 seconds. It's never going to be "fair." There is not a checklist or a score sheet. It's just editing. I decided from day one that I would not take deletions personally, any more than I would the local newspaper deciding to not print a letter to the editor. Matt owns this site, and he entrusts the editing to the admins. I don't have a right to be heard here. It's a private enterprise. If I ever get pissed enough, I guess I'll stop posting.
These types of threads can be useful, however. It's good to hash it out once in a while. I'm sure it gives understanding to some people, it pisses off other people, and it may give the admins some things to chew on as the site continues to grow, and the challenges become greater.
posted by The Deej at 12:13 PM on July 27, 2007
Bligh, when it's medically possible, I'm going to have your babies.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:14 PM on July 27, 2007
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:14 PM on July 27, 2007
unless you're a mindless twit who believes every critical look at some group
Stop there. Call it what you want: why should there be posts which exist to be critical of a group of people? What purpose do they server? Why should be permit posts from people whose agenda in making the post itself is to convince the rest of us that "there is something wrong them."
What purpose does it serve that falls in line with any of the generalized notions of what this site is about?
posted by dios at 12:14 PM on July 27, 2007
Stop there. Call it what you want: why should there be posts which exist to be critical of a group of people? What purpose do they server? Why should be permit posts from people whose agenda in making the post itself is to convince the rest of us that "there is something wrong them."
What purpose does it serve that falls in line with any of the generalized notions of what this site is about?
posted by dios at 12:14 PM on July 27, 2007
people who can't keep thier hands off the wheel shouldn't drive the car
Nullstate: The no-hands people
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:24 PM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
Nullstate: The no-hands people
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:24 PM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]
Stop there. Call it what you want: why should there be posts which exist to be critical of a group of people?
Are you kidding? I'd rather not see metafilter turn into some sort of milquetoast pool of banality, endeavoring to offend no one. I don't think the site has ever been like that.
What purpose does it serve that falls in line with any of the generalized notions of what this site is about?
Generalized notions?
posted by delmoi at 12:26 PM on July 27, 2007
Are you kidding? I'd rather not see metafilter turn into some sort of milquetoast pool of banality, endeavoring to offend no one. I don't think the site has ever been like that.
What purpose does it serve that falls in line with any of the generalized notions of what this site is about?
Generalized notions?
posted by delmoi at 12:26 PM on July 27, 2007
delmoi, I can't really tell when you are posting because you have real questions or when you are just doing your typical comment-count-inflating-filler kind of thing. But to the extent its the former, there is a distinction between a kind of post that offends people (e.g., a post about bacon might offend a PETA fan) and one that has no substance independent of isolating a group to insult/mock them. I'd love to see you offer any explanation of what value it adds to the site when we permit people to make posts which are noting but agenda-driven-grievances with a group of people and why it is an appropriate thing to have on Metafilter.
posted by dios at 12:32 PM on July 27, 2007
posted by dios at 12:32 PM on July 27, 2007
Metafzers: What purpose do they server?
posted by eddydamascene at 12:53 PM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by eddydamascene at 12:53 PM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
milquetoast pool of banality
in His own image He created them...
posted by quonsar at 12:56 PM on July 27, 2007
in His own image He created them...
posted by quonsar at 12:56 PM on July 27, 2007
HEY DELETERATORZ THEYRS A GONZO PSOT LINKIN TO TPMUCKRUCKUS AND SALOON MAGZ
posted by quonsar at 1:00 PM on July 27, 2007
posted by quonsar at 1:00 PM on July 27, 2007
I'd like to come in here and tell people to grow the hell up, but then I look over my commenting history (which includes claiming that quonsar had "his soul stolen by a guy on a stick"), and I realize I've got no fucking room to talk.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:04 PM on July 27, 2007
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:04 PM on July 27, 2007
But to the extent its the former, there is a distinction between a kind of post that offends people (e.g., a post about bacon might offend a PETA fan) and one that has no substance independent of isolating a group to insult/mock them.
Hmm, I think I may have read your original comment incorrectly, I thought you meant "posts which exist and are critical of a group of people",
Rather then "posts which exist for the sole purpose of being critical of a group of people"
At the same time, I think a lot of the time you, specifically, seem to think people are posting out of some agenda rather then simply making observations. A good example would be during Katrina when you thought everyone being critical of the bush administration was trying to "score political points." I don't think you're the best, or even a very good judge of that sort of intent.
posted by delmoi at 1:15 PM on July 27, 2007
Hmm, I think I may have read your original comment incorrectly, I thought you meant "posts which exist and are critical of a group of people",
Rather then "posts which exist for the sole purpose of being critical of a group of people"
At the same time, I think a lot of the time you, specifically, seem to think people are posting out of some agenda rather then simply making observations. A good example would be during Katrina when you thought everyone being critical of the bush administration was trying to "score political points." I don't think you're the best, or even a very good judge of that sort of intent.
posted by delmoi at 1:15 PM on July 27, 2007
I think a lot of the time you, specifically, seem to think people are posting out of some agenda rather then simply making observations
That's just as bad a reason, unless you're Andy Rooney.
Actually, that would just make it worse.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:31 PM on July 27, 2007
That's just as bad a reason, unless you're Andy Rooney.
Actually, that would just make it worse.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:31 PM on July 27, 2007
At the same time, I think a lot of the time you, specifically, seem to think people are posting out of some agenda rather then simply making observations.
1. You still haven't answered the direct question I put to you.
2. I dispute the notion that these are just innocent observations and not driven by some agenda to marginalize or whatever. "Did you ever notice that my office wall looks blue as the sun sets?" is an observation. The type of posts we are talking about are not observations. They are posts made by Poster X who obviously does not like/approve/tolerate Group Y and feels the need to convince other people of the same.
I think that is the case because I have a modicum of sense and can spot the obvious. Sorry, you're going to have to find some other dolt if you want to sell "I was just innocently sharing something with no motivations whatsoever" argument.
posted by dios at 1:39 PM on July 27, 2007
It's not like deleting posts to avoid flamewars actually stops flamewars - it just moves them here.
The commentary on this site is just as important, if not more so, than the links. Otherwise, what's the point? We could all just find our own favorite posts from our own little caves and not have to deal with others' comments and analyses, cogent or otherwise.
Reasonable people will differ on what's important or interesting, but here Matthowie, jessamyn and cortex have the final say.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 1:40 PM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
The commentary on this site is just as important, if not more so, than the links. Otherwise, what's the point? We could all just find our own favorite posts from our own little caves and not have to deal with others' comments and analyses, cogent or otherwise.
Reasonable people will differ on what's important or interesting, but here Matthowie, jessamyn and cortex have the final say.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 1:40 PM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
"That's just as bad a reason, unless you're Andy Rooney. "
You know what I hate? High-top sneakers. All you need is a good sandle, if you wear socks with it.
posted by klangklangston at 1:41 PM on July 27, 2007
You know what I hate? High-top sneakers. All you need is a good sandle, if you wear socks with it.
posted by klangklangston at 1:41 PM on July 27, 2007
Please excuse my two-martini-lunch-friday-typing-errors.
dios -- I hope you won't be billing clients for any work you do this afternoon. If you do, by all means have an associate check it for errors. ; )
posted by ericb at 1:41 PM on July 27, 2007
dios -- I hope you won't be billing clients for any work you do this afternoon. If you do, by all means have an associate check it for errors. ; )
posted by ericb at 1:41 PM on July 27, 2007
Dios, are you just mad because you haven't idly realize that this is a vile administration, given to historical levels of hubris and incompetence?
posted by klangklangston at 1:42 PM on July 27, 2007
posted by klangklangston at 1:42 PM on July 27, 2007
Historic, even!
posted by klangklangston at 1:44 PM on July 27, 2007
posted by klangklangston at 1:44 PM on July 27, 2007
PS- It's probably pretty obvious that I like political posts, and I am always amazed at the general insight of MeFites on both sides. I've also never bitched that any post was too mundane or trivial to be posted.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 1:45 PM on July 27, 2007
posted by Benny Andajetz at 1:45 PM on July 27, 2007
All you need is a good sandal, if you wear socks with it.
That, sir, has the air of a german sentiment! I suspect you are a closet hun! Indeed, I proclaim it! And I for one will not stand for the infiltration of our pure bodily fluids by filthy huns and their mongrel slavic servants!
Sir, I challenge you to a duel! What say you?
posted by aramaic at 2:03 PM on July 27, 2007
That, sir, has the air of a german sentiment! I suspect you are a closet hun! Indeed, I proclaim it! And I for one will not stand for the infiltration of our pure bodily fluids by filthy huns and their mongrel slavic servants!
Sir, I challenge you to a duel! What say you?
posted by aramaic at 2:03 PM on July 27, 2007
I'd love to see you offer any explanation of what value it adds to the site when we permit people to make posts which are noting but agenda-driven-grievances with a group of people and why it is an appropriate thing to have on Metafilter.
This is either disingenuous or bizarrely wrong-headed in the context of the actual deletion under discussion.
You make it sound like the linked video was some hatchet job on a randomly chosen innocent group like the elderly. It was in fact an expose of double standards at what is (apparently) an influential political lobby organisation - you know, people with an agenda. To this outsider with no great investment in the issues or interest in US domestic politics, it stood up well as content of note on the Internet, executed to a decent standard and worth linking to. Classic political journalism making use of this new medium.
posted by Abiezer at 2:06 PM on July 27, 2007
This is either disingenuous or bizarrely wrong-headed in the context of the actual deletion under discussion.
You make it sound like the linked video was some hatchet job on a randomly chosen innocent group like the elderly. It was in fact an expose of double standards at what is (apparently) an influential political lobby organisation - you know, people with an agenda. To this outsider with no great investment in the issues or interest in US domestic politics, it stood up well as content of note on the Internet, executed to a decent standard and worth linking to. Classic political journalism making use of this new medium.
posted by Abiezer at 2:06 PM on July 27, 2007
"That, sir, has the air of a german sentiment! I suspect you are a closet hun! Indeed, I proclaim it! And I for one will not stand for the infiltration of our pure bodily fluids by filthy huns and their mongrel slavic servants!
Sir, I challenge you to a duel! What say you?"
Why, sir, I AM a German, though I rarely wear socks with my sandals. I suppose I have to accept, for the pride of the Fatherland.
posted by klangklangston at 2:11 PM on July 27, 2007
Sir, I challenge you to a duel! What say you?"
Why, sir, I AM a German, though I rarely wear socks with my sandals. I suppose I have to accept, for the pride of the Fatherland.
posted by klangklangston at 2:11 PM on July 27, 2007
Very well, for the pride of your fatherland, and the glory of my motherland! Shall we do it at dawn?
...
I say, that sounds rather....carnal. Do you....find your breeches excessively restrictive?
I daresay I do. Perhaps I shall....remove them?
posted by aramaic at 2:19 PM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
...
I say, that sounds rather....carnal. Do you....find your breeches excessively restrictive?
I daresay I do. Perhaps I shall....remove them?
posted by aramaic at 2:19 PM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]
I have to say, it gets a little weird when any post that mentions christian fundamentalists gets yelled down as "lolxtians". Christianity in itself is not being targeted. Theism as a whole is not being targeted. It is a very specific religio-cultural-political movement that is under the lens here, and with good reason. As the video shows, these people have serious power in our government, and seriously fucked up ideas. It is not about making fun of people for loving jesus, or something. It's about the manipulation of human emotion for political gain by a powerful lobby.
I found the piece scary, well done and way more interesting than a bunch of links about some actress going to rehab. I know we repeat atheist/theist debates too much, but then why not clip that dan dennett post from a few days ago? This was better than than that, and the focus was on israel, joe lieberman, and this max whatsit, not on "does god exist".
posted by mdn at 2:27 PM on July 27, 2007 [3 favorites]
I found the piece scary, well done and way more interesting than a bunch of links about some actress going to rehab. I know we repeat atheist/theist debates too much, but then why not clip that dan dennett post from a few days ago? This was better than than that, and the focus was on israel, joe lieberman, and this max whatsit, not on "does god exist".
posted by mdn at 2:27 PM on July 27, 2007 [3 favorites]
1. You still haven't answered the direct question I put to you.
So when do we get to eat Jello?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:35 PM on July 27, 2007
So when do we get to eat Jello?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:35 PM on July 27, 2007
Jello ain't for eatin' boy, it's for reclining.... Now get those damn breeches off and let's party!
posted by aramaic at 2:38 PM on July 27, 2007
posted by aramaic at 2:38 PM on July 27, 2007
Christ, this thread title's had this stuck in my head all day.
And aramiac, the lederhosen stay on. Though, to be fair, lederhosen are something Bavarians wear, and my family, being from Northern Germany, has always instilled me with a vicious contempt for the (allegedly) retarded and backwards Bavarians. Because what's more German than a contempt for even your fellow countrymen?
posted by klangklangston at 2:45 PM on July 27, 2007
And aramiac, the lederhosen stay on. Though, to be fair, lederhosen are something Bavarians wear, and my family, being from Northern Germany, has always instilled me with a vicious contempt for the (allegedly) retarded and backwards Bavarians. Because what's more German than a contempt for even your fellow countrymen?
posted by klangklangston at 2:45 PM on July 27, 2007
"1. You still haven't answered the direct question I put to you."
That's how Gonzo has ruined our American character— no one can answer a direct question anymore, especially under oath.
posted by klangklangston at 2:46 PM on July 27, 2007
That's how Gonzo has ruined our American character— no one can answer a direct question anymore, especially under oath.
posted by klangklangston at 2:46 PM on July 27, 2007
I daresay I have an ichthyoid in my breeches!
aye, but kinyer open a box turtle widdit?
posted by quonsar at 3:01 PM on July 27, 2007
aye, but kinyer open a box turtle widdit?
posted by quonsar at 3:01 PM on July 27, 2007
you know, I did a google search for "box turtle" "tin shears" and the only page that came up at all, across the entirety of the internet, was a metatalk thread from 3 days ago. I daresay that quonsar is the only person in the world to have ever suggested opening a box turtle with tin shears on the internet. And I still have no idea where on earth the idea came from.
posted by shmegegge at 3:12 PM on July 27, 2007
posted by shmegegge at 3:12 PM on July 27, 2007
is quonsar this guy, then?
Protip: they're generally called "tin snips," not "tin shears."
posted by dersins at 3:29 PM on July 27, 2007
Protip: they're generally called "tin snips," not "tin shears."
posted by dersins at 3:29 PM on July 27, 2007
yes, but we're no longer in generally now are we, toto?
posted by quonsar at 3:39 PM on July 27, 2007
posted by quonsar at 3:39 PM on July 27, 2007
You know, I had a post deleted yesterday but I'm not complaining. It was about Oscar the psychic cat. He can tell who's going to die next in the nursing home where he lives. So far, hes been right twenty five times. But nobody seems to realize that Oscar is actually doing the killing himself. How else could he be right that many times? it.
posted by Sailormom at 3:46 PM on July 27, 2007
posted by Sailormom at 3:46 PM on July 27, 2007
Five.
posted by boo_radley at 4:06 PM on July 27, 2007
posted by boo_radley at 4:06 PM on July 27, 2007
But really, when it comes to cats, I thought doubles, even triples were encouraged.
posted by Sailormom at 6:56 PM on July 27, 2007
posted by Sailormom at 6:56 PM on July 27, 2007
Sailormom said: But really, when it comes to cats, I thought doubles, even triples were encouraged.
That's only if the cats are LOLing.
posted by amyms at 7:19 PM on July 27, 2007
That's only if the cats are LOLing.
posted by amyms at 7:19 PM on July 27, 2007
the greater the tendency of MeFi to evolve into lumpy porridge-like blend of Fark, AOL, and People.
soylent blue is people!
posted by Hat Maui at 1:44 AM on July 28, 2007
soylent blue is people!
posted by Hat Maui at 1:44 AM on July 28, 2007
Four.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:03 AM on July 28, 2007
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:03 AM on July 28, 2007
Christ, this thread title's had this stuck in my head all day.
And now you've got it stuck in mine. Curse you, Hun!
Wait a minute, that sounded like "hon." What am I, turning into aramaic?
posted by languagehat at 7:13 AM on July 28, 2007
And now you've got it stuck in mine. Curse you, Hun!
Wait a minute, that sounded like "hon." What am I, turning into aramaic?
posted by languagehat at 7:13 AM on July 28, 2007
But really, when it comes to cats, I thought doubles, even triples were encouraged.
Oh hai
Today we iz a proton
posted by Slithy_Tove at 7:28 AM on July 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
Oh hai
Today we iz a proton
posted by Slithy_Tove at 7:28 AM on July 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
Jessamyn, you suck for this and deserve to be told so. I've met you face to face, sat down to a home cooked meal with you and real life friends in common, and it was good. Thus I am not hiding behind a wall of anonymity for it saying it.
Actually 3.2.3 I don't know who you are, so I think the anonymous thing still holds true, but thanks for hurting my feelings as if we were friends.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:36 AM on July 28, 2007 [2 favorites]
Actually 3.2.3 I don't know who you are, so I think the anonymous thing still holds true, but thanks for hurting my feelings as if we were friends.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:36 AM on July 28, 2007 [2 favorites]
Wait a minute. Jessamyn breaks bread ?! Good god woman, do you have to delete everything?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:11 AM on July 28, 2007
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:11 AM on July 28, 2007
If it helps, jessamyn, I can give you a nice big hug.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:35 AM on July 28, 2007
posted by Meatbomb at 10:35 AM on July 28, 2007
3.2.3: Jessamyn, you suck for this and deserve to be told so. I've met you face to face, sat down to a home cooked meal with you and real life friends in common, and it was good. Thus I am not hiding behind a wall of anonymity for it saying it.
jessamyn: Actually 3.2.3 I don't know who you are
So it seems to me you have three options, 3.2.3:
1) Unmask and let us know who you are, so jessamyn can see which person she's been nice to is an asshole who should not be invited back;
2) Stay anonymous but apologize profusely for acting like an anonymous asshole;
3) Slink off and hide until it's time for your next personal attack from behind the veil of anonymity.
I'm betting on 3, but you never know.
posted by languagehat at 10:51 AM on July 28, 2007
jessamyn: Actually 3.2.3 I don't know who you are
So it seems to me you have three options, 3.2.3:
1) Unmask and let us know who you are, so jessamyn can see which person she's been nice to is an asshole who should not be invited back;
2) Stay anonymous but apologize profusely for acting like an anonymous asshole;
3) Slink off and hide until it's time for your next personal attack from behind the veil of anonymity.
I'm betting on 3, but you never know.
posted by languagehat at 10:51 AM on July 28, 2007
5) stop deleting posts you dipshits.
posted by quonsar at 11:44 AM on July 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by quonsar at 11:44 AM on July 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
Isn't (6) an alias of (4)? Are you disputing the classiness of my urbane advice, CORE TEKH?
posted by Firas at 12:03 PM on July 28, 2007
posted by Firas at 12:03 PM on July 28, 2007
You know, the more people grab a metal coat hanger and run out to try to find their sewer line, the more potential eyewitnesses you have to support your assertion that dowsing is voodoo. I don't think it's necessary for us to consider whether or not the poster is going to feel like an ass for taking ten minutes to walk around the backyard with a stick in order to deem an answer worthy. In other words, the answer embodies a lot less harm to anybody than dozens of other AskMe responses I've seen, so who cares?
posted by oneirodynia at 1:04 PM on July 28, 2007
posted by oneirodynia at 1:04 PM on July 28, 2007
Wow, I'm SO not a viking in real life.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:05 PM on July 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by oneirodynia at 1:05 PM on July 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
people, people. we're getting off topic here. Let's try to stay on track:
box turtle. tin shears. wtf.
posted by shmegegge at 1:18 PM on July 28, 2007
box turtle. tin shears. wtf.
posted by shmegegge at 1:18 PM on July 28, 2007
but from a mile up, this looked like a link to any random political post made any day of the week on Huffington post.
MATT CAN FLY!
posted by LarryC at 8:42 AM on July 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
MATT CAN FLY!
posted by LarryC at 8:42 AM on July 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
shears. as in billy. nobody ever said anything about snips.
posted by quonsar at 10:54 AM on July 29, 2007
posted by quonsar at 10:54 AM on July 29, 2007
I'm mdn and others.
Out of all deletions ever, this one baffled me the most.
posted by Anything at 12:05 PM on July 29, 2007
Out of all deletions ever, this one baffled me the most.
posted by Anything at 12:05 PM on July 29, 2007
Eh, with mdn and others.
*haxx0rs mefi, deletes evidence of sockpuppetry*
posted by Anything at 12:08 PM on July 29, 2007
*haxx0rs mefi, deletes evidence of sockpuppetry*
posted by Anything at 12:08 PM on July 29, 2007
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That's right, Leni Riefenstahl.
posted by found missing at 5:15 PM on July 26, 2007 [16 favorites]