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yes, lord yes.
posted by boo_radley at 2:54 PM on September 8, 2006
posted by boo_radley at 2:54 PM on September 8, 2006
Man, think of projects as, like, the pinnacle of unlockables in a videogame. You have to get all of the other goodies before the Metafilter system announces "PROJECTS GET!!"
posted by boo_radley at 2:56 PM on September 8, 2006
posted by boo_radley at 2:56 PM on September 8, 2006
No, I don't think it is waiting period time. I tried the site out and it's fairly useful for finding deals on stuff (search for apple or ipod to see).
Trust me, as someone that has seen each and every project ever posted, there is little to no relationship between how long they have been a user and how good a project is. This project is actually pretty useful and isn't the kind of lame shill someone would use the site for (I've deleted a few of those that never saw the light of day, but it is nowhere near a problem).
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:58 PM on September 8, 2006
Trust me, as someone that has seen each and every project ever posted, there is little to no relationship between how long they have been a user and how good a project is. This project is actually pretty useful and isn't the kind of lame shill someone would use the site for (I've deleted a few of those that never saw the light of day, but it is nowhere near a problem).
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:58 PM on September 8, 2006
The lack of a waiting period or other participation requirement has been the most direct cause of my failure to read Projects on a regular basis. When most of the projects are posted by users I've never seen before and have made only a handful of comments, it's not that compelling. Of the eight projects posted so far this month, five were posted by users with less than ten comments total across the site. I'm sure the projects are fun/cool/useful, but it just doesn't feel like part of the MeFi community.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 3:00 PM on September 8, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 3:00 PM on September 8, 2006
it's useful, sure, but is it really a community member's project?
posted by boo_radley at 3:01 PM on September 8, 2006
posted by boo_radley at 3:01 PM on September 8, 2006
The guy joined on Sep 7 and posted a project on Sep 7 and you're ok with that?
posted by bob sarabia at 3:05 PM on September 8, 2006
posted by bob sarabia at 3:05 PM on September 8, 2006
People obviously sign up now to ask a one time question, or put up a project for some quick publicity. It's a step away from metafilter being a community, and a step closer to metafilter becoming a business. Which, since it's now matt's method of putting food on the table, is understandable.
posted by justgary at 3:15 PM on September 8, 2006
posted by justgary at 3:15 PM on September 8, 2006
You say Projects was what initially drew you to Metafilter?
Listen, fucker. Back in the day you had to know someone who knew someone to be able to find a place like this. And if you didn't? Well, maybe you'd show up late to the party and have to wait a year to be able to even make an account. So if you don't hurry up and get caught up on the injokes and start a collection of obnoxious/offensive .gifs for posting, well, you can just piss off.
posted by GooseOnTheLoose at 3:16 PM on September 8, 2006
Listen, fucker. Back in the day you had to know someone who knew someone to be able to find a place like this. And if you didn't? Well, maybe you'd show up late to the party and have to wait a year to be able to even make an account. So if you don't hurry up and get caught up on the injokes and start a collection of obnoxious/offensive .gifs for posting, well, you can just piss off.
posted by GooseOnTheLoose at 3:16 PM on September 8, 2006
The guy joined on Sep 7 and posted a project on Sep 7 and you're ok with that?
If he wasn't OK with it he wouldn't have approved the project. Duh.
posted by delmoi at 3:31 PM on September 8, 2006
If he wasn't OK with it he wouldn't have approved the project. Duh.
posted by delmoi at 3:31 PM on September 8, 2006
I'm ok with people posting projects BEFORE they become members. Heck, if they can figure out a way to do it before their own birth, I say let `em!
posted by blue_beetle at 3:53 PM on September 8, 2006
posted by blue_beetle at 3:53 PM on September 8, 2006
That's seriously fucking lame.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:01 PM on September 8, 2006
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:01 PM on September 8, 2006
The guy joined on Sep 7 and posted a project on Sep 7 and you're ok with that?
I should make it a one-week waiting period, to bring the rest of the sites inline with each other, but yeah, I'm ok with people joining the site, and using one part of it right away.
Listen, we had this same discussion when Ask MeFi launched. "Shouldn't only long-time members be able to ask questions? I haven't heard of any of these freeloaders" was the type of feedback I heard. Three years later and Ask MeFi is a useful place filled with interesting stuff, regardless of whether the people asking and answering are longtime MeFi members.
Ditto to Jobs, Projects, Music, and whatever else comes next. It's all a way for people to join the community and hopefully branch out into other sections and become worthwhile members. Not everyone has to start at MetaFilter first, then get to move to other parts of the site.
And that's not me as a businessman speaking because I can make five dollars, that's just how you run a community the right way -- welcome any and all who have something to contribute.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:17 PM on September 8, 2006
I should make it a one-week waiting period, to bring the rest of the sites inline with each other, but yeah, I'm ok with people joining the site, and using one part of it right away.
Listen, we had this same discussion when Ask MeFi launched. "Shouldn't only long-time members be able to ask questions? I haven't heard of any of these freeloaders" was the type of feedback I heard. Three years later and Ask MeFi is a useful place filled with interesting stuff, regardless of whether the people asking and answering are longtime MeFi members.
Ditto to Jobs, Projects, Music, and whatever else comes next. It's all a way for people to join the community and hopefully branch out into other sections and become worthwhile members. Not everyone has to start at MetaFilter first, then get to move to other parts of the site.
And that's not me as a businessman speaking because I can make five dollars, that's just how you run a community the right way -- welcome any and all who have something to contribute.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:17 PM on September 8, 2006
Projects have to be approved by mathowie or jessamyn and can't be published to the site instantly.
Your complaint may be valid as far as how people are using it, but implicit approval of that is being given by the admins. It takes a couple of days sometimes for a project that's submitted to show up on the site.
If the projects are decently interesting, what's the problem? It's not like projects gets anywhere near the hits that mefi's main page does. I think when my project got posted it got maybe 60 additional visitors thanks to MeFi.
posted by twiggy at 4:21 PM on September 8, 2006
Your complaint may be valid as far as how people are using it, but implicit approval of that is being given by the admins. It takes a couple of days sometimes for a project that's submitted to show up on the site.
If the projects are decently interesting, what's the problem? It's not like projects gets anywhere near the hits that mefi's main page does. I think when my project got posted it got maybe 60 additional visitors thanks to MeFi.
posted by twiggy at 4:21 PM on September 8, 2006
If the projects are decently interesting, what's the problem?
I think monju_bosatsu already answered this:
I'm sure the projects are fun/cool/useful, but it just doesn't feel like part of the MeFi community.
And before that it was addressed in the OP:
no comment as to the usefulness of the project in question
No one is questioning how intersting the site is. The concern is over whether or not Projects is really functioning as a gateway drug to MeFi as intended.
It's all a way for people to join the community and hopefully branch out into other sections and become worthwhile members.
Is that actually happening with new members who post first to projects? webwesen doesn't seem to be a very good example here because that was only yesterday. I think pointing to some previous examples of worthwhile members entering through Projects would remove a lot of these concerns.
posted by scottreynen at 4:37 PM on September 8, 2006
I think monju_bosatsu already answered this:
I'm sure the projects are fun/cool/useful, but it just doesn't feel like part of the MeFi community.
And before that it was addressed in the OP:
no comment as to the usefulness of the project in question
No one is questioning how intersting the site is. The concern is over whether or not Projects is really functioning as a gateway drug to MeFi as intended.
It's all a way for people to join the community and hopefully branch out into other sections and become worthwhile members.
Is that actually happening with new members who post first to projects? webwesen doesn't seem to be a very good example here because that was only yesterday. I think pointing to some previous examples of worthwhile members entering through Projects would remove a lot of these concerns.
posted by scottreynen at 4:37 PM on September 8, 2006
projects: It'd suck if the place turned into a $5 ad space.
I don't see why. This presumes that longstanding members' projects make better links than $5 ads and I think that burden of proof is on that assumption. Projects was invented as a place "where self-links rule" and this example does nothing to convince me that there's anything wrong there.
The best member-driven sites will still get posted to the Blue whether they ever make it to Projects or not. I see nothing wrong with Matt making some money from Projects in the meantime.
posted by scarabic at 4:40 PM on September 8, 2006
I don't see why. This presumes that longstanding members' projects make better links than $5 ads and I think that burden of proof is on that assumption. Projects was invented as a place "where self-links rule" and this example does nothing to convince me that there's anything wrong there.
The best member-driven sites will still get posted to the Blue whether they ever make it to Projects or not. I see nothing wrong with Matt making some money from Projects in the meantime.
posted by scarabic at 4:40 PM on September 8, 2006
The concern is over whether or not Projects is really functioning as a gateway drug to MeFi as intended.
Was it intended as such? I got the impression it was added pretty much as value-neutral—not to promote partipation elsewhere on the site so much as to provide an outlet for self-linking. Someone who joins just to post a project to Projects probably won't be showing up to any meetups, sure, but neither do 95% of members.
posted by cortex at 4:50 PM on September 8, 2006
Was it intended as such? I got the impression it was added pretty much as value-neutral—not to promote partipation elsewhere on the site so much as to provide an outlet for self-linking. Someone who joins just to post a project to Projects probably won't be showing up to any meetups, sure, but neither do 95% of members.
posted by cortex at 4:50 PM on September 8, 2006
I got the impression it was added pretty much as value-neutral—not to promote partipation elsewhere on the site so much as to provide an outlet for self-linking.
I got a different impression when Matt said:
It's all a way for people to join the community and hopefully branch out into other sections and become worthwhile members.
If that is an intended purpose of Projects, I think it makes sense to look at how well it's fulfilling that purpose. If it's not, I think it makes sense to say so clearly and remove any confusion. I don't personally care either way. I just think it's odd that two loosely related topics (quality of links and quality of community) are being discussed here as if they're the same thing.
posted by scottreynen at 5:09 PM on September 8, 2006
I got a different impression when Matt said:
It's all a way for people to join the community and hopefully branch out into other sections and become worthwhile members.
If that is an intended purpose of Projects, I think it makes sense to look at how well it's fulfilling that purpose. If it's not, I think it makes sense to say so clearly and remove any confusion. I don't personally care either way. I just think it's odd that two loosely related topics (quality of links and quality of community) are being discussed here as if they're the same thing.
posted by scottreynen at 5:09 PM on September 8, 2006
to provide an outlet for self-linking
Yeah, I thought it was more of a response to years of persistent self-linking. It's actually an incredibly generous gesture. Instead of just cracking down on self-linking, Matt provided a special site for doing just that. It's proved a nice way to surface what people are up to in the community, but I think it's a little knee-jerk to complain that people are using it for self-promotion. That's its purpose. Better there than in the Blue.
And while Matt toes the "businessman" line quite tactfully, I think it's great that Projects is there as an added draw to register new people, even if they only do so to pimp one link. Those $5 registrations might turn into worthwile memberships on all the sites over time, but even if they don't, they're contributing to the coffers that support this whole place.
posted by scarabic at 5:51 PM on September 8, 2006
Yeah, I thought it was more of a response to years of persistent self-linking. It's actually an incredibly generous gesture. Instead of just cracking down on self-linking, Matt provided a special site for doing just that. It's proved a nice way to surface what people are up to in the community, but I think it's a little knee-jerk to complain that people are using it for self-promotion. That's its purpose. Better there than in the Blue.
And while Matt toes the "businessman" line quite tactfully, I think it's great that Projects is there as an added draw to register new people, even if they only do so to pimp one link. Those $5 registrations might turn into worthwile memberships on all the sites over time, but even if they don't, they're contributing to the coffers that support this whole place.
posted by scarabic at 5:51 PM on September 8, 2006
monju: Do you also refuse to read front page posts unless you can identify the poster? Or is Projects the only section of the site where you apply that standard?
posted by punishinglemur at 7:30 PM on September 8, 2006
posted by punishinglemur at 7:30 PM on September 8, 2006
I should clarify; it's not a standard I apply, it's a trend I've noticed over time. Indeed, as I implied in my earlier comment, it's more my failure than any design or policy defect in Matt's site. I don't refuse to read anything, I just tend to be more curious about the projects of people I conversed with or have made posts in the blue I find interesting.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:48 PM on September 8, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:48 PM on September 8, 2006
Well put, scarabic.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:04 PM on September 8, 2006
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:04 PM on September 8, 2006
The concern is over whether or not Projects is really functioning as a gateway drug to MeFi as intended.
Well, the purpose of it is to show off our projects and hopefully get the best ones promoted onto the main site. I think that works pretty well so far:
http://www.metafilter.com/tags/mefiprojects
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:37 PM on September 8, 2006
Well, the purpose of it is to show off our projects and hopefully get the best ones promoted onto the main site. I think that works pretty well so far:
http://www.metafilter.com/tags/mefiprojects
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:37 PM on September 8, 2006
If that is an intended purpose of Projects, I think it makes sense to look at how well it's fulfilling that purpose. If it's not, I think it makes sense to say so clearly and remove any confusion.
Scott, when I said this "It's all a way for people to join the community and hopefully branch out into other sections and become worthwhile members." I was referring to all parts of the site.
Of course, my intention when doing Music was to say "hey we have a lot of talented members here and I bet some of them play music they'd want to share" and ditto to Projects (we have lots of web tech and design types that make stuff) and same to Jobs (we have lots of tech people that want to hire friends from the site).
But invariably, someone from a tiny record label joined and posted a few songs to Music, and someone joined to pimp their latest Project, and heck, I'm sure some recruiter will eventually join Jobs and post some job.
At that point, I'm saying it's ok for people to come in via one of the other new doors and start off somewhere besides the community proper of the weblog portion. They weren't designed to bring new people in so I wouldn't use that as a standard to measure their usefulness.
I'm just saying now that they are up, once in a while if someone pops in and contributes there first and only, that's fine with me and I hope they eventually branch out just like I hope people don't make one comment to the main MeFi site and leave forever.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:42 PM on September 8, 2006
Scott, when I said this "It's all a way for people to join the community and hopefully branch out into other sections and become worthwhile members." I was referring to all parts of the site.
Of course, my intention when doing Music was to say "hey we have a lot of talented members here and I bet some of them play music they'd want to share" and ditto to Projects (we have lots of web tech and design types that make stuff) and same to Jobs (we have lots of tech people that want to hire friends from the site).
But invariably, someone from a tiny record label joined and posted a few songs to Music, and someone joined to pimp their latest Project, and heck, I'm sure some recruiter will eventually join Jobs and post some job.
At that point, I'm saying it's ok for people to come in via one of the other new doors and start off somewhere besides the community proper of the weblog portion. They weren't designed to bring new people in so I wouldn't use that as a standard to measure their usefulness.
I'm just saying now that they are up, once in a while if someone pops in and contributes there first and only, that's fine with me and I hope they eventually branch out just like I hope people don't make one comment to the main MeFi site and leave forever.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:42 PM on September 8, 2006
Well, the purpose of it is to show off our projects
The "our" doesn't seem to manifest itself in admin policy.
posted by cillit bang at 9:16 PM on September 8, 2006
The "our" doesn't seem to manifest itself in admin policy.
posted by cillit bang at 9:16 PM on September 8, 2006
Here, use our tissue.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:35 PM on September 8, 2006
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:35 PM on September 8, 2006
*blows our nose*
The guy joined on Sep 7 and posted a project on Sep 7 and you're ok with that?
I'm not sure how so many of us thought at first that Projects was intended solely as a place for existing members to post cool things they were working on, but it's been made pretty clear since it started that Matt's never thought of it in that limited way.
posted by mediareport at 10:34 PM on September 8, 2006
The guy joined on Sep 7 and posted a project on Sep 7 and you're ok with that?
I'm not sure how so many of us thought at first that Projects was intended solely as a place for existing members to post cool things they were working on, but it's been made pretty clear since it started that Matt's never thought of it in that limited way.
posted by mediareport at 10:34 PM on September 8, 2006
I should make it a one-week waiting period
Pretty please?
posted by mediareport at 11:10 PM on September 8, 2006
Pretty please?
posted by mediareport at 11:10 PM on September 8, 2006
I've deleted a few of those that never saw the light of day
I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out (again...) that unapproved Projects actually do see the light of day, on the Archives page.
posted by Gator at 6:11 AM on September 9, 2006
I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out (again...) that unapproved Projects actually do see the light of day, on the Archives page.
posted by Gator at 6:11 AM on September 9, 2006
I'm not sure how so many of us thought at first that Projects was intended solely as a place for existing members to post cool things they were working on, but it's been made pretty clear since it started that Matt's never thought of it in that limited way.
Yeah, this seems to be the primary disagreement, and while it's been made clear in this thread, I expect it will come up again. All the anti-self-link sentiment applied to the blue makes it hard to imagine that's really the whole point of Projects. Maybe it's worth adding an "Even for new members?" section to the FAQ or the Project about page.
posted by scottreynen at 6:29 AM on September 9, 2006
Yeah, this seems to be the primary disagreement, and while it's been made clear in this thread, I expect it will come up again. All the anti-self-link sentiment applied to the blue makes it hard to imagine that's really the whole point of Projects. Maybe it's worth adding an "Even for new members?" section to the FAQ or the Project about page.
posted by scottreynen at 6:29 AM on September 9, 2006
A lot of the community seems to disagree with you pretty strongly about the spammy posts to Projects you've been explicitly approving.
Nearly all the sites being promoted this way on Projects (with the user signing up just to post there) are terrible, because it takes some serious tactlessness (or a soulless marketing job) to use it as a $5 advertisement that way. Asshat marketers don't tend to make good websites.
posted by blasdelf at 8:54 AM on September 9, 2006
Nearly all the sites being promoted this way on Projects (with the user signing up just to post there) are terrible, because it takes some serious tactlessness (or a soulless marketing job) to use it as a $5 advertisement that way. Asshat marketers don't tend to make good websites.
posted by blasdelf at 8:54 AM on September 9, 2006
This project is actually pretty useful and isn't the kind of lame shill someone would use the site for
Wouldn't it make more sense to FPP it then? The randomness of what ends up on projects is why I don't read it. It doesn't seem to have any connection to the rest of MeFi. I know it's your site, but you do seem to be getting a decent amount of pushback over this.
posted by cillit bang at 9:04 AM on September 9, 2006
Wouldn't it make more sense to FPP it then? The randomness of what ends up on projects is why I don't read it. It doesn't seem to have any connection to the rest of MeFi. I know it's your site, but you do seem to be getting a decent amount of pushback over this.
posted by cillit bang at 9:04 AM on September 9, 2006
cb touches on what has confused me. I always thought that Projects was for cool web things made by members of the community, and therefore not appropriate for FPP via the self linking rule. FPP, by definition, is for cool web things made by people NOT in the community.
So it comes down to, who is a member of the community?
posted by Dunwitty at 11:37 AM on September 9, 2006
So it comes down to, who is a member of the community?
posted by Dunwitty at 11:37 AM on September 9, 2006
Anyone who has paid $5 and has not broken the guidelines?
posted by owhydididoit at 12:21 PM on September 9, 2006
posted by owhydididoit at 12:21 PM on September 9, 2006
and of course folks who joined before the fee was implemented
posted by owhydididoit at 12:22 PM on September 9, 2006
posted by owhydididoit at 12:22 PM on September 9, 2006
FPP, by definition, is for cool web things made by people NOT in the community.
It's okay to link to other members' sites, just not your own. So replacing "NOT in the community" with "NOT yourself" may remove the confusion.
posted by scottreynen at 1:22 PM on September 9, 2006
It's okay to link to other members' sites, just not your own. So replacing "NOT in the community" with "NOT yourself" may remove the confusion.
posted by scottreynen at 1:22 PM on September 9, 2006
cb touches on what has confused me. I always thought that Projects was for cool web things made by members of the community, and therefore not appropriate for FPP via the self linking rule. FPP, by definition, is for cool web things made by people NOT in the community.
Projects is for cool stuff made (or hosted) by you, FPPs are for cool stuff not made (or hosted) by you. "The community" is irrelevant for the definition.
posted by delmoi at 5:52 PM on September 9, 2006
Projects is for cool stuff made (or hosted) by you, FPPs are for cool stuff not made (or hosted) by you. "The community" is irrelevant for the definition.
posted by delmoi at 5:52 PM on September 9, 2006
Yeah, there's no rule that says in-community stuff is inappropriate for posting. You just need to get another community member to post your thing and not do it yourself.
posted by scarabic at 7:59 AM on September 10, 2006
posted by scarabic at 7:59 AM on September 10, 2006
I don't know who this chunking express fellow is, but I like the way he thinks.
posted by chunking express at 10:58 AM on September 11, 2006
posted by chunking express at 10:58 AM on September 11, 2006
The problem I see is asshats with derivative websites (usually full of other place's content with little or no added value) marketing their crap by paying the $5 to post their shit projects.
Mathowie seems perfectly happy to manually approve pretty much anything as a Project post.
It doesn't help that there's a whole bunch of people who bought accounts this summer who generally don't fit in at all, signing their posts and whatnot.
posted by blasdelf at 4:46 PM on September 11, 2006
Mathowie seems perfectly happy to manually approve pretty much anything as a Project post.
It doesn't help that there's a whole bunch of people who bought accounts this summer who generally don't fit in at all, signing their posts and whatnot.
posted by blasdelf at 4:46 PM on September 11, 2006
I don't see how dudes like this fit into the MeFi community. I don't think anyone really needs another call-out on this topic since it seems to be established protocol that Projects is going to allow spammers like this dude, but I just want to voice my disappointment in this part of the site (thus I am posting in the most recent thread on the matter). I really love MeFi and AskMe, but Projects is totally uninteresting because it is officially a $5 ad space. More and more the sites linked are "technology bargain" businesses rather than true member's "projects."
posted by mattbucher at 9:20 AM on September 15, 2006
posted by mattbucher at 9:20 AM on September 15, 2006
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is it waiting-period time?
posted by sergeant sandwich at 2:50 PM on September 8, 2006