Is it time to revisit favorites? March 12, 2025 10:28 AM Subscribe
I want to suggest that we consider decoupling bookmarks from favorites. I very frequently want to favorite a comment to show my support or agreement, but I have stopped using favorites because I do not want to bookmark hundreds of comments that I appreciated but do not need to revisit.
I recognize that this is contrary to established custom, but the internet has changed since favorites were introduced. No other platform forces users to bookmark every comment they want to acknowledge.
Additionally, the FAQ doesn’t address favorites. Is that available somewhere on the site? I was trying to find something explaining why favorites were set up the way they are but I was unsuccessful.
I don't imagine everyone will agree with this suggestion, but it seems like now as the new site design is being updated is a good time to discuss.
I recognize that this is contrary to established custom, but the internet has changed since favorites were introduced. No other platform forces users to bookmark every comment they want to acknowledge.
Additionally, the FAQ doesn’t address favorites. Is that available somewhere on the site? I was trying to find something explaining why favorites were set up the way they are but I was unsuccessful.
I don't imagine everyone will agree with this suggestion, but it seems like now as the new site design is being updated is a good time to discuss.
it's up to the users to decide if that will happen on the new site, so please talk it out y'all!
I think it would be more "this could be a feature request on the new site" right? I mean it's not like it's a free for all ask and ye shall receive...is it?
posted by warriorqueen at 10:51 AM on March 12 [7 favorites]
I think it would be more "this could be a feature request on the new site" right? I mean it's not like it's a free for all ask and ye shall receive...is it?
posted by warriorqueen at 10:51 AM on March 12 [7 favorites]
Personally I could care less about this and see no particular problem with the policy/norm as it stand, but I would like to voice my opposition to the idea that a comment from 2006 by someone who at one time owned Metafilter is in any way binding on the community as it stands today.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:55 AM on March 12 [10 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:55 AM on March 12 [10 favorites]
I'm a newb de facto and I don't care about this particular question much, but I think providing the original context of the decision is not the same as saying that it's binding.
posted by Bryant at 11:08 AM on March 12 [7 favorites]
posted by Bryant at 11:08 AM on March 12 [7 favorites]
I used them for both bookmarks and to express some form of agreement or appreciation, but I recently unfavorited everything I had ever favorited since 2006 (it took a while), because I became aware while reading a contentious thread that there is a possibility of being judged for favoriting something, and I didn't want that.
posted by JanetLand at 11:10 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
posted by JanetLand at 11:10 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
I think it would be more "this could be a feature request on the new site" right? I mean it's not like it's a free for all ask and ye shall receive...is it?
I mean, I think the implication there is that the site will be owned by the community and the features and function of the site will largely be governed by community consensus?
I would imagine many people are operating under the notion that if a majority of people want the new site to function a certain way, then it probably should.
posted by kbanas at 11:14 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
I mean, I think the implication there is that the site will be owned by the community and the features and function of the site will largely be governed by community consensus?
I would imagine many people are operating under the notion that if a majority of people want the new site to function a certain way, then it probably should.
posted by kbanas at 11:14 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
I think it would be more "this could be a feature request on the new site" right? I mean it's not like it's a free for all ask and ye shall receive...is it?
I think we're talking about slightly different, yet the same things :)
If people want to talk about decoupling bookmarks from favorites right now, that's totally fine and can be done here.
Doing so could help gauge if members want this to be done.
If a lot of people do want that, then yeah, that's something that could become a feature request on the new site.
but I would like to voice my opposition to the idea that a comment from 2006 by someone who at one time owned Metafilter is in any way binding on the community as it stands today.
Totally, it's not binding at all. The OP was asking for more information on how and why Favorites are the way they are, hene the links to Matt's original comments.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:16 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
I think we're talking about slightly different, yet the same things :)
If people want to talk about decoupling bookmarks from favorites right now, that's totally fine and can be done here.
Doing so could help gauge if members want this to be done.
If a lot of people do want that, then yeah, that's something that could become a feature request on the new site.
but I would like to voice my opposition to the idea that a comment from 2006 by someone who at one time owned Metafilter is in any way binding on the community as it stands today.
Totally, it's not binding at all. The OP was asking for more information on how and why Favorites are the way they are, hene the links to Matt's original comments.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:16 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
I would imagine many people are operating under the notion that if a majority of people want the new site to function a certain way, then it probably should.
There doesn't really seem to be any mechanism by which this would be the case.
posted by dusty potato at 11:42 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
There doesn't really seem to be any mechanism by which this would be the case.
posted by dusty potato at 11:42 AM on March 12 [2 favorites]
I would imagine that the new board could establish a mechanism to poll MeFi about simple issues (although this particular issue might be more complicated than a basic yes/no and would probably require some discussion/hashing out in MeTa).
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:59 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:59 AM on March 12 [1 favorite]
Having a website designed by polling the entire userbase individually for each decision does not exactly seem likely to lead to a coherent and usable website.
posted by quacks like a duck at 12:05 PM on March 12 [13 favorites]
posted by quacks like a duck at 12:05 PM on March 12 [13 favorites]
Came in to say what quacks like a duck said. Not that it shouldn't be a consideration but that will end up being a useability nightmare (like we currently have, but possibly worse.)
posted by warriorqueen at 12:09 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 12:09 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Oh, I don't think that it's necessarily a tool that would be used frequently (and I tend to be opposed to referenda in general, but sometimes it makes sense). I just mean that it seems eminently doable if people / the Board wanted to do it.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:50 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:50 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
Having a website designed by polling the entire userbase individually for each decision does not exactly seem likely to lead to a coherent and usable website
This made me laugh out loud in a quiet office where I am supposed to be working. You speak too lightly of polling the userbase. Have you seen our thread about setting up an election? Metatalk is for discussion, not deciding.
posted by Vatnesine at 12:59 PM on March 12
This made me laugh out loud in a quiet office where I am supposed to be working. You speak too lightly of polling the userbase. Have you seen our thread about setting up an election? Metatalk is for discussion, not deciding.
posted by Vatnesine at 12:59 PM on March 12
I'd suggest keeping favorites as they are, and adding bookmarks, which would be private.
posted by zompist at 1:08 PM on March 12 [36 favorites]
posted by zompist at 1:08 PM on March 12 [36 favorites]
I like that concept
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:19 PM on March 12
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:19 PM on March 12
I initially agreed since most other social media has both these days, but I find mathowie's logic kinda hard to argue with (ie: we already have decoupled, private bookmarks in the browser).
posted by lucidium at 1:21 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
posted by lucidium at 1:21 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't use it myself, but it seems like a reasonable thing for people who want to separate out "things I agree with" from "things I want to come back to later".
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:24 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:24 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
I'd suggest keeping favorites as they are, and adding bookmarks, which would be private.
That would be perfect.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:30 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
That would be perfect.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:30 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]
Seems to me that anyone who wants to bookmark MetaFilter comments could create a “MetaFilter comments” folder in their browser’s bookmarks manager.
posted by Lemkin at 1:54 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 1:54 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
I'd suggest keeping favorites as they are, and adding bookmarks, which would be private.
I also think this is the perfect option. Favorites stay as they are, publicly viewable, with added bookmark/save function that is private to users.
posted by litera scripta manet at 2:07 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
I also think this is the perfect option. Favorites stay as they are, publicly viewable, with added bookmark/save function that is private to users.
posted by litera scripta manet at 2:07 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
Seems to me that anyone who wants to bookmark MetaFilter comments could create a “MetaFilter comments” folder in their browser’s bookmarks manager.
People could also take screen shots and store them in a folder on their desktop. Or cut and paste the text into a file. Or have them tattooed on their inner thigh. Lots of options exist.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:21 PM on March 12 [9 favorites]
People could also take screen shots and store them in a folder on their desktop. Or cut and paste the text into a file. Or have them tattooed on their inner thigh. Lots of options exist.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:21 PM on March 12 [9 favorites]
I would love this. The conflation is why I rarely favorite comments!
posted by lloquat at 3:09 PM on March 12
posted by lloquat at 3:09 PM on March 12
I am currently a favourites=bookmarks person. I occasionally favourite something I really like to add some weight to it, but then I delete those later when the conversation is over because otherwise they clutter up my bookmarks.
I would be happy to be a favourites = favourites person and a bookmarks = bookmarks person, even though it would mean doing some work to transition. I would expect the transition would be a whole lot easier for favourites = bookmarks, just because we tend to have fewer that would need to be relabeled.
Liking things and saving them are now two separate functions in pretty much any software platform I use. Often so is turning those functions off, by not seeing them or sometimes by not even allowing them, on a user-by-user basis. This wouldn't be a major priority for me in the redevelopment of the site, but I support it in a vague sort of way.
posted by jacquilynne at 3:16 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
I would be happy to be a favourites = favourites person and a bookmarks = bookmarks person, even though it would mean doing some work to transition. I would expect the transition would be a whole lot easier for favourites = bookmarks, just because we tend to have fewer that would need to be relabeled.
Liking things and saving them are now two separate functions in pretty much any software platform I use. Often so is turning those functions off, by not seeing them or sometimes by not even allowing them, on a user-by-user basis. This wouldn't be a major priority for me in the redevelopment of the site, but I support it in a vague sort of way.
posted by jacquilynne at 3:16 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
If favorite=upvote can we get a downvote too?
Fundraiser idea: highest bidder gets to name the downvote function.
posted by Diskeater at 3:56 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
Fundraiser idea: highest bidder gets to name the downvote function.
posted by Diskeater at 3:56 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
I'd suggest keeping favorites as they are, and adding bookmarks, which would be private.
I can add this to the new site since it's essentially the same function as saving favorites. I already downloaded an icon.
The conflation is why I rarely favorite comments!
Me too!
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 4:39 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
I can add this to the new site since it's essentially the same function as saving favorites. I already downloaded an icon.
The conflation is why I rarely favorite comments!
Me too!
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 4:39 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]
I think private bookmarks as a separate function from public favorites would be nice, the use cases are different, and it would make MeFi work more like other sites people are used to. Plus the icons are already well-established and would be intuitive.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:42 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:42 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
I love the favorites mechanism at it is. There's a particular Mefite who has said I'm mean multiple times, has favorited multiple comments by others when they say they don't like me, and yet if you go to the infodumpster and search by fans, this Mefite is in the top five of all Mefites of all time who have favorited my comments. And actively favorite them, this isn't some ancient times thing. It's why their name popped out at me.
Anyway this is absolutely hilarious to me and I'd never name them here because they're obviously working through their own personal situation with this, but god damn. If you hate me so much stop favoriting my shit!!!! When I noticed this I laughed so hard I CRIED, like wheezing, snotting of the face level laughing. Thank you for that SO much. I would never have had that joy without the favorites mechanism.
Anyway sure the separate bookmark thingy sounds nice.
posted by phunniemee at 5:43 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
Anyway this is absolutely hilarious to me and I'd never name them here because they're obviously working through their own personal situation with this, but god damn. If you hate me so much stop favoriting my shit!!!! When I noticed this I laughed so hard I CRIED, like wheezing, snotting of the face level laughing. Thank you for that SO much. I would never have had that joy without the favorites mechanism.
Anyway sure the separate bookmark thingy sounds nice.
posted by phunniemee at 5:43 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
Favourites=favourites, I like
Bookmarks=bookmarks, I like
Both as part of the site, I like
Downvote, nope I don’t like. We have enough members who are already super cautious about posting and commenting and I’m pretty sure that having a downvote will chase them away, permanently.
Favourite this comment!
posted by ashbury at 5:55 PM on March 12 [10 favorites]
Bookmarks=bookmarks, I like
Both as part of the site, I like
Downvote, nope I don’t like. We have enough members who are already super cautious about posting and commenting and I’m pretty sure that having a downvote will chase them away, permanently.
Favourite this comment!
posted by ashbury at 5:55 PM on March 12 [10 favorites]
I would like a way to have a section on my profile of bookmarked comments and posts, which I could choose to be private or publicly displayed on a part of my profile, maybe the last ten or so of them by default? And then favorites stay as they are, a kind of combination head-nod from the chorus and short term recall function.
Per someone’s concern above about being judged for favoriting an unwise comment - anybody who judges another for this is not worth respecting in this capacity. Like, I get wanting to have a tidy online presence and you do what you like about your favorites, but I refuse to be pulled into such “bitch eating crackers” energy.
posted by Mizu at 8:18 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
Per someone’s concern above about being judged for favoriting an unwise comment - anybody who judges another for this is not worth respecting in this capacity. Like, I get wanting to have a tidy online presence and you do what you like about your favorites, but I refuse to be pulled into such “bitch eating crackers” energy.
posted by Mizu at 8:18 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]
Also I still want favorites to be renamed to beans, because they are value neutral and sidestep issues with upvotes/likes/hearts/reactions in general, and also because some of us are full of them. Will I ever get my beans? Probably not. Will I continue to incept this idea into a metatalk thread when relevant? Absolutely.
posted by Mizu at 8:21 PM on March 12 [12 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 8:21 PM on March 12 [12 favorites]
Favourites=favourites, I like
Bookmarks=bookmarks, I like
Both as part of the site, I like
Yep.
I do like the idea of renaming favourites as beans, though ;-) You can give them whatever meaning you like - some are healthy and nutritious and some make you want to fart.
While I'm glad we are getting to discuss some things and the back-and-forth about how things are, aren't or should be are interesting, I wish we had a way to actually come to some kind of conclusion. Perhaps some kind of board or something that could consider things and decide something, anything?
posted by dg at 8:28 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
Bookmarks=bookmarks, I like
Both as part of the site, I like
Yep.
I do like the idea of renaming favourites as beans, though ;-) You can give them whatever meaning you like - some are healthy and nutritious and some make you want to fart.
While I'm glad we are getting to discuss some things and the back-and-forth about how things are, aren't or should be are interesting, I wish we had a way to actually come to some kind of conclusion. Perhaps some kind of board or something that could consider things and decide something, anything?
posted by dg at 8:28 PM on March 12 [7 favorites]
I really wish we weren't having a piecemeal, whatever someone happened to care about today back and forth and instead that there was a more comprehensive design process taking place but that doesn't seem to be in the offing, so instead we are getting a semi-duplicate site with random new things tacked on based seemingly mostly on whether or not they seemed easy enough to do.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:50 PM on March 12 [14 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 8:50 PM on March 12 [14 favorites]
As someone whose early (2008) interaction with this site involved a metatalk about favourites in which I got absolutely rinsed by the community (which was the style at the time), I support this post being here, whatever it is, to the extent that it is a proposal, or not, if the proposal is not, whichever the case may be.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:19 PM on March 12 [8 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:19 PM on March 12 [8 favorites]
There's a particular Mefite who has said I'm mean multiple times, has favorited multiple comments by others when they say they don't like me
it's me isn't it.
to be clear, you're mean but ALSO FUNNY AND FAVORITABLE
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:12 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
it's me isn't it.
to be clear, you're mean but ALSO FUNNY AND FAVORITABLE
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:12 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
phunniemee: phunny + mean
posted by Klipspringer at 6:38 AM on March 13
posted by Klipspringer at 6:38 AM on March 13
I’m not greedy for money. I’m greedy for respect.
posted by Lemkin at 7:27 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
posted by Lemkin at 7:27 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Oh yeah I'm not saying I'm not mean. I'm just saying if you find yourself agreeing with me hundreds of times? a thousand times?? maybe you a little mean, too.
posted by phunniemee at 7:37 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 7:37 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
Favorites aren't always agreeing though. Which sparks this type of discussion. I love the idea of having favorites or beans and bookmarks separately.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:52 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:52 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Someone hate bookmarking my best content for 15 years straight would be even funnier actually.
posted by phunniemee at 7:56 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 7:56 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Cool
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:59 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:59 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
I mentioned this several years ago, but I'd like a checkbox system to delete my favorites. That way I could get rid of the one-off "I agree!" favorites to more easily find the "Hey, this is good to know" favorites.
posted by jgirl at 8:29 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
posted by jgirl at 8:29 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
If anyone wants to give me hate favorites, I’m down with it. Those spend the same as the regular kind.
posted by Lemkin at 8:30 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 8:30 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
I set up a feature request form for the new site.
Please check the list of requests to avoid submitting a duplicate.
I really wish we weren't having a piecemeal, whatever someone happened to care about today back and forth and instead that there was a more comprehensive design process taking place but that doesn't seem to be in the offing
It would be great if someone were to start a design process.
instead we are getting a semi-duplicate site with random new things tacked on based seemingly mostly on whether or not they seemed easy enough to do
This is basically the assignment. I committed to recreating the existing site site and making minor adjustments that are hopefully improvements.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 8:58 AM on March 13 [18 favorites]
Please check the list of requests to avoid submitting a duplicate.
I really wish we weren't having a piecemeal, whatever someone happened to care about today back and forth and instead that there was a more comprehensive design process taking place but that doesn't seem to be in the offing
It would be great if someone were to start a design process.
instead we are getting a semi-duplicate site with random new things tacked on based seemingly mostly on whether or not they seemed easy enough to do
This is basically the assignment. I committed to recreating the existing site site and making minor adjustments that are hopefully improvements.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 8:58 AM on March 13 [18 favorites]
instead we are getting a semi-duplicate site with random new things tacked on based seemingly mostly on whether or not they seemed easy enough to do
This is basically the assignment.
Yes! The community has pretty much made that desire loud and clear, since well before development started, and now that it is under way, kirkaracha has done an admirable job so far replicating 1999 look and feel in 2025 technology. (I promise that's not snark!). Parachuting in now with a comment like that seems...unnecessary.
Also thanks kirkaracha for adding a feature request form, that will help maybe get past the "piecemeal" feeling and put a little more structure around "this is missing can we do this" rather than just throwing thoughts around in MeTa threads.
posted by pdb at 9:15 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
This is basically the assignment.
Yes! The community has pretty much made that desire loud and clear, since well before development started, and now that it is under way, kirkaracha has done an admirable job so far replicating 1999 look and feel in 2025 technology. (I promise that's not snark!). Parachuting in now with a comment like that seems...unnecessary.
Also thanks kirkaracha for adding a feature request form, that will help maybe get past the "piecemeal" feeling and put a little more structure around "this is missing can we do this" rather than just throwing thoughts around in MeTa threads.
posted by pdb at 9:15 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Parachuting in now with a comment like that seems...unnecessary.
I am not parachuting in now with this comment, I am harping on a comment I have been making for awhile now. Those are totally different personality flaws and if you're going to accuse me of behaving in a shitty manner, I would prefer you correctly identified the shitty manner in which I am behaving, thanks.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:20 AM on March 13 [14 favorites]
I am not parachuting in now with this comment, I am harping on a comment I have been making for awhile now. Those are totally different personality flaws and if you're going to accuse me of behaving in a shitty manner, I would prefer you correctly identified the shitty manner in which I am behaving, thanks.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:20 AM on March 13 [14 favorites]
"please be ideologically consistent in the manner in which you besmirch me" is so my energy
posted by phunniemee at 9:25 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 9:25 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
Also I still want favorites to be renamed to beans, because they are value neutral
Could be catchier. How about MeowMeow Beans?
posted by zamboni at 10:13 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Could be catchier. How about MeowMeow Beans?
posted by zamboni at 10:13 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
whether or not they seemed easy enough to do
'Bookmarks' as 'private favorites' makes sense and it's great to see Kirkaracha knocking out site features that are easy to code. This is a win.
posted by Diskeater at 10:48 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
'Bookmarks' as 'private favorites' makes sense and it's great to see Kirkaracha knocking out site features that are easy to code. This is a win.
posted by Diskeater at 10:48 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Post favorites are bookmarks, comment favorites are likes.
posted by atoxyl at 12:06 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 12:06 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
The wording of 'Bookmarks' originally came from the Mozilla Browser (and they still exist in Firefox) Internet Explorer used the more positive sounding word 'Favorite' (which I really think should be spelled Favourite). For most people the words mean the same thing.
Having two separate options seems like it would over-complicate the user interface and probably confuse new users. I think we should just have one system and let everyone use it how they want to use it.
For the privacy issue, could each user have a profile option like: Make my favorites public [x]
posted by Lanark at 3:47 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Having two separate options seems like it would over-complicate the user interface and probably confuse new users. I think we should just have one system and let everyone use it how they want to use it.
For the privacy issue, could each user have a profile option like: Make my favorites public [x]
posted by Lanark at 3:47 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
For most people the words mean the same thing.
I think they're different things, and based on this thread several other people do, too.
A Quick Guide to Bookmarks, Favorites and Social Validation:
How about lock/unlock icons?
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 6:09 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
I think they're different things, and based on this thread several other people do, too.
A Quick Guide to Bookmarks, Favorites and Social Validation:
Bookmarks...allow users to privately store and organize web pages or digital content for future reference.For the privacy issue, could each user have a profile option like: Make my favorites public [x]
...
Favorites are a more personal and private method of information preservation...Favorites are often used to save items that we frequently use or enjoy.
How about lock/unlock icons?
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 6:09 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
I'm going to suggest taking this one step further, so that the public favorites replace the "Flag comment as fantastic" function, leaving flagging as a purely "report to the mods" function, which I think is cleaner conceptually, I don't think I know of any other site where "flagging" isn't a negative thing for reporting.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 7:52 PM on March 13 [11 favorites]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 7:52 PM on March 13 [11 favorites]
ENTHUSIASTIC seconding of Joakim Ziegler's suggestion. It's 2025, and I don't know of any other major websites where "flagging," especially "flag for moderation" (the current popup text over the flag icon) means anything positive. There's MF's historical precedent, yes, but then there's the basic usability principle of "make good things easy for everyone to find."
posted by Pandora Kouti at 7:58 PM on March 13 [5 favorites]
posted by Pandora Kouti at 7:58 PM on March 13 [5 favorites]
I created a feature request for removing "Flagging as fantastic" from the flagging menu and just using favorites for that.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:05 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:05 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Making the sidebar purely about favorites seems like a retrograde step.
posted by zamboni at 8:12 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
posted by zamboni at 8:12 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Making the sidebar purely about favorites seems like a retrograde step.
It doesn't have to be, there can still be human intervention in picking what goes into the sidebar, I'm just saying that if favorites (public) are separated from bookmarks (private), we can take the opportunity to remove some duplicate functionality and also clean up the "Flag for moderation" menu, which I think most users will take to mean something negative.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:13 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
It doesn't have to be, there can still be human intervention in picking what goes into the sidebar, I'm just saying that if favorites (public) are separated from bookmarks (private), we can take the opportunity to remove some duplicate functionality and also clean up the "Flag for moderation" menu, which I think most users will take to mean something negative.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:13 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
And I’m saying that there is a great difference in signal between some people explicitly saying
posted by zamboni at 8:49 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
I personally think this is fantastic and belongs in the sidebarand a bunch of people clicking [+] on the thing they agree with at the top of a thread.
posted by zamboni at 8:49 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
I think cumulatively the effect would be about the same. I'm sure the mods could correct me if I'm wrong, and things that are flagged as fantastic a lot often get very few favorites, and things that get a lot of favorites rarely get flagged as fantastic.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:54 PM on March 13
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:54 PM on March 13
For an arbitrary example, the most recent non-community post in the sidebar is Flight Attendant Uniforms , with 14 favorites. At present,
there are more than 50 posts ahead of it in Popular. A favorite means whatever you want it to mean. Flagged as fantastic means
posted by zamboni at 9:12 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
there are more than 50 posts ahead of it in Popular. A favorite means whatever you want it to mean. Flagged as fantastic means
this is fantastic, and I think more people should see it.
posted by zamboni at 9:12 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
I'm going to suggest taking this one step further, so that the public favorites replace the "Flag comment as fantastic" function, leaving flagging as a purely "report to the mods" function, which I think is cleaner conceptually, I don't think I know of any other site where "flagging" isn't a negative thing for reporting.
I'm not on shift and was in bed reading the site on my phone, but got up to go to my laptop to type because this viewpoint struck me as so fundamentally wrong.
Currently people have the option to choose to signal/say that something is fantastic. They literally can opt in and decide to say that. Why take that away? People who use it are making an a clear choice to say "This is amazing, please look at this". What good is it to remove an option whose only point is to allow members to "say" how awesome they feel about a comment or post on the site?
Flagged as fantastic is a great feature and should not in anyway be removed at all. I don't care what other sites are doing or concepts, do no touch this feature.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:18 PM on March 13 [5 favorites]
I'm not on shift and was in bed reading the site on my phone, but got up to go to my laptop to type because this viewpoint struck me as so fundamentally wrong.
Currently people have the option to choose to signal/say that something is fantastic. They literally can opt in and decide to say that. Why take that away? People who use it are making an a clear choice to say "This is amazing, please look at this". What good is it to remove an option whose only point is to allow members to "say" how awesome they feel about a comment or post on the site?
Flagged as fantastic is a great feature and should not in anyway be removed at all. I don't care what other sites are doing or concepts, do no touch this feature.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:18 PM on March 13 [5 favorites]
As to the difference between Favorites and Flagged as Fantastic (FaF), there are definitely way more things that are favorited as opposed to FaF.
But FaF is, imo, stuff that people have an emotional reaction to. FaF is very much "OMG, you have HAVE to look at this, it's so fucking good". The comparative rarity of FaF compared to favorites make them stand out more and provide a clearer indicator of something that is loved, versus just liked.
Currently, FaF is visible only to the mods (afaik) and they do influence things that go in the sidebar and Best Of blog.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:31 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
But FaF is, imo, stuff that people have an emotional reaction to. FaF is very much "OMG, you have HAVE to look at this, it's so fucking good". The comparative rarity of FaF compared to favorites make them stand out more and provide a clearer indicator of something that is loved, versus just liked.
Currently, FaF is visible only to the mods (afaik) and they do influence things that go in the sidebar and Best Of blog.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:31 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Flagged as fantastic is a great feature and should not in anyway be removed at all. I don't care what other sites are doing or concepts, do no touch this feature.
In that case I think it should definitely be moved. It's currently under a "flag" icon that's commonly used on sites to flag something as breaking rules, and whose tooltip says "Flag this comment for moderation". Only experienced MeFi users would think to look there for a way to suggest the comment for special recommendations.
On the flip side, I never suggested removing the human element from the sidebar selection. Surely not every post flagged as fantastic gets put in the sidebar anyway?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 9:32 PM on March 13 [8 favorites]
In that case I think it should definitely be moved. It's currently under a "flag" icon that's commonly used on sites to flag something as breaking rules, and whose tooltip says "Flag this comment for moderation". Only experienced MeFi users would think to look there for a way to suggest the comment for special recommendations.
On the flip side, I never suggested removing the human element from the sidebar selection. Surely not every post flagged as fantastic gets put in the sidebar anyway?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 9:32 PM on March 13 [8 favorites]
Eh, I think FaF is fine where it is personally, it sounds like people may be focusing more on concept as opposed to people. The more I think about, the more I like the idea of a positive flag or two in the flagging menu. Flagging doesn't have to have negative meaning to it.
Nor does moderation either, i.e. "Flag this for moderation". Flagging as fantastic can prompt moderation action, aka putting it in the sidebar. Rewriting the tooltip to something else might be the way to go, but have my sleepy brain has no suggestions at the moment.
No, not every FaF goes on the sidebar. If they did, there were be more political stuff these days.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:41 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Nor does moderation either, i.e. "Flag this for moderation". Flagging as fantastic can prompt moderation action, aka putting it in the sidebar. Rewriting the tooltip to something else might be the way to go, but have my sleepy brain has no suggestions at the moment.
No, not every FaF goes on the sidebar. If they did, there were be more political stuff these days.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:41 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Just a thought, "I don't care what other sites are doing" is not a great approach to UX, especially when it comes to attracting new users.
"Nor does moderation either", the definition of "moderation" is to limit or reduce something. It's nonsensical to say that boosting something or giving it more attention, saying it's great, etc., fits the definition of "moderation". I mean, that's how we use it here on MeFi, but again, we're the only ones, and that's not great from a UX perspective.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 12:56 AM on March 14 [8 favorites]
"Nor does moderation either", the definition of "moderation" is to limit or reduce something. It's nonsensical to say that boosting something or giving it more attention, saying it's great, etc., fits the definition of "moderation". I mean, that's how we use it here on MeFi, but again, we're the only ones, and that's not great from a UX perspective.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 12:56 AM on March 14 [8 favorites]
I think "Flagged as Fantastic" is for something that is worth reading in isolation. E.g. a funny story, a good anecdote, a fascinating explanation.
A witty comment might get a lot of favorites but only be intelligible in the context of the post or the conversation. If it pops up in the sidebar and you click on it, it might not make any sense because it builds on or responds to something ten comments up.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 4:35 AM on March 14
A witty comment might get a lot of favorites but only be intelligible in the context of the post or the conversation. If it pops up in the sidebar and you click on it, it might not make any sense because it builds on or responds to something ten comments up.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 4:35 AM on March 14
the definition of "moderation" is to limit or reduce something
If we’re reduced to
Moderation (OED)
If we’re reduced to
The dictionary defines moderation as …, sure, that’s part of what the word means.
a1425–Originally: the quality of being moderate in harshness or intensity; mildness, clemency (obsolete). Later more generally: the quality of being moderate in conduct, opinion, etc.; avoidance of excess or extremes in behaviour; temperateness, self-control, restraint.I suspect we mean something more like
Moderation (OED)
a.1891–Originally: the action of serving as an impartial mediator or arbitrator. Later also: the action of presiding over a meeting or assembly; the action or process of chairing or facilitating a debate, discussion, etc.Moderator (MW)
b. The action or process of monitoring an online forum, social media platform, etc., to ensure that its users and content conform to the rules or terms of service, esp. by deleting inappropriate or offensive content and banning or suspending users for any (suspected) infringements. Often more fully content moderation. Frequently as a modifier.
someone who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion: such asposted by zamboni at 5:01 AM on March 14 [1 favorite]
a: the chairman of a discussion group
b: a person who administers an online forum, chat room, or group
Just a thought, "I don't care what other sites are doing" is not a great approach to UX, especially when it comes to attracting new users.
I came here to say this. This isn't the 1990s Web where you could call something "beans" and it would be creative and cute. These various Internet words have well-established meanings now and there are potential new members out there who have literally grown up with these conventions:
I came here to say this. This isn't the 1990s Web where you could call something "beans" and it would be creative and cute. These various Internet words have well-established meanings now and there are potential new members out there who have literally grown up with these conventions:
- "Favorite" and "Bookmark" are usually private ways to save links to content. (The top four web browsers use those exact words to refer to your private list of sites.)
- If you're approving of or endorsing a post or comment, that is usually called "Like" or "Upvote".
- If there's a button to report things to moderators it would typically be "Report".
- "Flag as Fantastic" is very specific to MeFi and doesn't confuse anybody.
If flag as fantastic is so important, it really should be promoted out of the well-hidden flag menu, where it can easily be misclicked into calling something racist or offensive.
For discoverability, I'd say there should be a button called something like "Mark as sidebar-worthy", on the same level as "Flag for Moderator attention". *Neither* of those, IMO, need to be visible to the same extent the "Add public +1", "Add private bookmark", and "Reply", or whatever wording prevails.
posted by sagc at 5:32 AM on March 14 [7 favorites]
For discoverability, I'd say there should be a button called something like "Mark as sidebar-worthy", on the same level as "Flag for Moderator attention". *Neither* of those, IMO, need to be visible to the same extent the "Add public +1", "Add private bookmark", and "Reply", or whatever wording prevails.
posted by sagc at 5:32 AM on March 14 [7 favorites]
Proposal to replace the simple shape language of [+] with "☐ BY CHECKING THIS BOX I CONSENT THAT MY ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF THIS COMMENT/POST IS DATA THAT WILL BE ATTACHED TO MY USER ACCOUNT. I UNDERSTAND THAT MY ACKNOWLEDGEMENT MAY BE CONSIDERED BY OTHERS TO BE A PERSONAL ENDORSEMENT OF SAID COMMENT/POST REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THAT IS AN ACCURATE REFLECTION OF MY TRUE BELIEFS AT THIS TIME. I UNDERSTAND THAT I CAN REMOVE MY ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF THIS COMMENT/POST AT ANY TIME, AT MY OWN DISCRETION, AND THAT DATA WILL BE REMOVED FROM MY USER ACCOUNT.
posted by phunniemee at 5:34 AM on March 14 [4 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 5:34 AM on March 14 [4 favorites]
I rarely look back at favorites, but I think I agree with OP. There’s no real reason to bookmark a statement I that I agree with or want to laud for some reason. A simple upvote (to steal Reddit terminology) would be fine. Bookmarking should probably be a separate function, or even one handled by the browser rather than the site. If the bookmarks provide some functionality beyond simple linking, then keep them as a site function. Otherwise, drop them entirely.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 5:39 AM on March 14
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 5:39 AM on March 14
Just a thought, "I don't care what other sites are doing" is not a great approach to UX, especially when it comes to attracting new users.
When it comes to attracting new users, having an ongoing advertising plan and budget amidst a overall plan of recruiting new members to unique elements of MetaFilter is much more important than an odd aspect of UX.
UX is important and MetaFilter's could probably use some changes. But getting rid of the Flag As Fantastic feature isn't a good idea and should not happen. Moving it somewhere else could work, but I personally see no reason to do that.
However this conversation has convinced me to point out sidebar items that are flagged as fantastic, so thank for that.
If flag as fantastic is so important, it really should be promoted out of the well-hidden flag menu, where it can easily be misclicked into calling something racist or offensive.
Misclicking 'flagged as fantastic' has not been an issue at all.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:41 AM on March 14
When it comes to attracting new users, having an ongoing advertising plan and budget amidst a overall plan of recruiting new members to unique elements of MetaFilter is much more important than an odd aspect of UX.
UX is important and MetaFilter's could probably use some changes. But getting rid of the Flag As Fantastic feature isn't a good idea and should not happen. Moving it somewhere else could work, but I personally see no reason to do that.
However this conversation has convinced me to point out sidebar items that are flagged as fantastic, so thank for that.
If flag as fantastic is so important, it really should be promoted out of the well-hidden flag menu, where it can easily be misclicked into calling something racist or offensive.
Misclicking 'flagged as fantastic' has not been an issue at all.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:41 AM on March 14
I think "Flag as Fantastic" should be left much as it is, but I do think the hover text "Flag this comment for moderation" would be better as something like "Signal this comment to mods", just because new users are not going to expect a positive feedback option to be hidden behind 'flagging' for moderation.
It does occur to me that the flag menu is a bit like an upvote/downvote system only with the votes hidden. Up/down votes on forums tend to create a lot of noise with people feeling the need to vote on everything one way or another. The current solution on Metafilter is a very neat way of minimising all that.
posted by Lanark at 5:49 AM on March 14
It does occur to me that the flag menu is a bit like an upvote/downvote system only with the votes hidden. Up/down votes on forums tend to create a lot of noise with people feeling the need to vote on everything one way or another. The current solution on Metafilter is a very neat way of minimising all that.
posted by Lanark at 5:49 AM on March 14
Gently, I think we can stop hand wringing about new users. I think the, what, six of them? will be fine.
posted by phunniemee at 5:51 AM on March 14 [11 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 5:51 AM on March 14 [11 favorites]
If Metafilter is going to survive we do need to think about making the place understandable to new users. Also Usability helps everyone.
posted by Lanark at 6:00 AM on March 14 [8 favorites]
posted by Lanark at 6:00 AM on March 14 [8 favorites]
Given the relatively tiny number of people who are willing to flag anything at all, I think keeping the Fantastic flag under that system is a missed opportunity to surface a feature that is one of the parts of Mefi (the sidebar) that people seem to really like and value.
I have absolutely zero opinion on favorites, but I commend to everyone's attention the magnificent old-school shitshow that was the original November Favorites Experiment, mostly for historical value and horrified amusement.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 6:12 AM on March 14 [6 favorites]
I have absolutely zero opinion on favorites, but I commend to everyone's attention the magnificent old-school shitshow that was the original November Favorites Experiment, mostly for historical value and horrified amusement.
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 6:12 AM on March 14 [6 favorites]
This, but with "new users" and "interface modernization"
posted by sagc at 6:40 AM on March 14 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:40 AM on March 14 [2 favorites]
It's currently under a "flag" icon that's commonly used on sites to flag something as breaking rules, and whose tooltip says "Flag this comment for moderation". Only experienced MeFi users would think to look there for a way to suggest the comment for special recommendations.
When I was an inexperienced MeFite, I noticed a [!] at the end of each comment. Curious, I clicked on it. After clicking, it said pick a reason to flag. Even more curious (why would I want to flag a comment?), I clicked again and got a drop down menu, showing me reasons to flag. Cool, I thought. If something's bad, someone will look at it. Also, if something is awesome, someone will look at it.
I don't see an issue with where Flag as Fantastic currently lives.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:29 AM on March 14 [2 favorites]
When I was an inexperienced MeFite, I noticed a [!] at the end of each comment. Curious, I clicked on it. After clicking, it said pick a reason to flag. Even more curious (why would I want to flag a comment?), I clicked again and got a drop down menu, showing me reasons to flag. Cool, I thought. If something's bad, someone will look at it. Also, if something is awesome, someone will look at it.
I don't see an issue with where Flag as Fantastic currently lives.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:29 AM on March 14 [2 favorites]
Having a tiny drop down menu where the option for "this is the best (fantastic)" is just a few millimeters away from "this is the worst (racism/sexism)" is not good interface design and does not lead to good user experience. Having said that, there may be no need to address the issue at this time, and the functionality of "flagging as fantastic" may in fact be a great feature for metafilter to have. But the implementation sucks, and it always has.
posted by grog at 8:49 AM on March 14 [8 favorites]
posted by grog at 8:49 AM on March 14 [8 favorites]
this entire thread is a good representation of why UX-by-ad-hoc-committee, especially at a place as entrenched and Old as metafilter, is not a good or practical way to do web design
ideally any (any) redesign of a website would consider all aspects of layout, labeling, and functionality irrespective of prior usefulness or popularity. the new would be divorced from the old; all assumptions would be tested. the verbs and metaphors of web UX, not to mention the technological platforms and capabilities, constantly shift over the years.
but MetaFilter's userbase is such that hesitance always arises to change anything, for any reason, simply because in personal (anecdotal) cases the thing(s) in question work "fine," as though this removes the need to consider the possibility that any less vocal, less stubborn user might not in fact consider it "fine." not to mention the fact that users in isolation are rarely the best judges of broad user experience; they can tell you they personally don't like something, or that they do like it, and an expert on UX design can then weigh those judgments, assess their sources, and form actionable decisions based on an understanding of the technical platform and best practices.
the entire process of feature expansion should be happening via a process of user testing and research and deliberate, iterative design. asking kirk to just do all of it solo, based on these free-flying, chaotic MetaTalk conversations, is inefficient and counterproductive and unfair.
posted by Kybard at 9:13 AM on March 14 [27 favorites]
ideally any (any) redesign of a website would consider all aspects of layout, labeling, and functionality irrespective of prior usefulness or popularity. the new would be divorced from the old; all assumptions would be tested. the verbs and metaphors of web UX, not to mention the technological platforms and capabilities, constantly shift over the years.
but MetaFilter's userbase is such that hesitance always arises to change anything, for any reason, simply because in personal (anecdotal) cases the thing(s) in question work "fine," as though this removes the need to consider the possibility that any less vocal, less stubborn user might not in fact consider it "fine." not to mention the fact that users in isolation are rarely the best judges of broad user experience; they can tell you they personally don't like something, or that they do like it, and an expert on UX design can then weigh those judgments, assess their sources, and form actionable decisions based on an understanding of the technical platform and best practices.
the entire process of feature expansion should be happening via a process of user testing and research and deliberate, iterative design. asking kirk to just do all of it solo, based on these free-flying, chaotic MetaTalk conversations, is inefficient and counterproductive and unfair.
posted by Kybard at 9:13 AM on March 14 [27 favorites]
I think our starting point should be to just re-implement the site as an exact replica of the current code with a different back-end. This could mean doing a lot of work to replicate functionality which, within a year or two we may decide to rip out and redesign, but changing too much in one go is a recipe for failure.
Minor changes that can be done by toggling an option in one line of code are easy to do on the fly, but those changes are also things that would be easy to change after the new design is complete.
I think we should all go into this with the expectation that any agreed changes will go into a development time-line but won't necessarily appear in version 1.0 of the new site, and we can let the developer decide the logical order in which to start actually changing anything.
Also I 100% agree with Kybard about iterative user testing even with 5 users.
posted by Lanark at 10:46 AM on March 14 [5 favorites]
Minor changes that can be done by toggling an option in one line of code are easy to do on the fly, but those changes are also things that would be easy to change after the new design is complete.
I think we should all go into this with the expectation that any agreed changes will go into a development time-line but won't necessarily appear in version 1.0 of the new site, and we can let the developer decide the logical order in which to start actually changing anything.
Also I 100% agree with Kybard about iterative user testing even with 5 users.
posted by Lanark at 10:46 AM on March 14 [5 favorites]
1000% what kybard said
posted by warriorqueen at 11:57 AM on March 14 [5 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 11:57 AM on March 14 [5 favorites]
what if we included 'Fuck You' as a flag option?
Flag as Fuck You
if people could do that, maybe we would reduce the number of acrimonious comments. Just flag as Fuck You and move on?
I'm not helping am I
posted by ginger.beef at 1:06 PM on March 14 [4 favorites]
Flag as Fuck You
if people could do that, maybe we would reduce the number of acrimonious comments. Just flag as Fuck You and move on?
I'm not helping am I
posted by ginger.beef at 1:06 PM on March 14 [4 favorites]
[+] [⚑] [🖕]
posted by Klipspringer at 1:34 PM on March 14 [8 favorites]
posted by Klipspringer at 1:34 PM on March 14 [8 favorites]
Misclicking 'flagged as fantastic' has not been an issue at all.
Brandon: how do you know?
(I misclick the various flag options ALL THE TIME. If i haven't fucked up a "Flag As Fantastic" specifically, it's only because i use it so rarely.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:02 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
Brandon: how do you know?
(I misclick the various flag options ALL THE TIME. If i haven't fucked up a "Flag As Fantastic" specifically, it's only because i use it so rarely.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:02 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
how do you know?
My guess is that
posted by zamboni at 3:39 PM on March 14 [3 favorites]
My guess is that
has not been an issueis not the same as
never happens.The two failure modes for an accidental fantastic flag are a false positive, which is easily disregarded, or the statistically unlikely inadvertent positive, a happy accident.
posted by zamboni at 3:39 PM on March 14 [3 favorites]
Yep, what zamboni said. It hasn't been an issue, i.e. no one has emailed us saying "oops, I flagged something as fantastic when I didn't mean to". Folks are encouraged to do so if it does happen, but so far it hasn't.
Emails clarifying that a user has mistakenly flag something have happened, I'd say rarely, but not for FaF.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:42 PM on March 14
Emails clarifying that a user has mistakenly flag something have happened, I'd say rarely, but not for FaF.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:42 PM on March 14
Actual question - how would users know? If I remember right when I flag something it just shows “flagged” as far as I know.
I don’t really know if I have strong opinions on this but I think it might be nice for members if fantastic flags were surfaced so they could see their posts were flagged. Right now it’s just mods right?
posted by warriorqueen at 5:14 PM on March 14 [7 favorites]
I don’t really know if I have strong opinions on this but I think it might be nice for members if fantastic flags were surfaced so they could see their posts were flagged. Right now it’s just mods right?
posted by warriorqueen at 5:14 PM on March 14 [7 favorites]
We have gotten emails from users that apologize for flagging something incorrectly. Presumably they happened to be paying direct attention and saw the mistake in real time.
But you bring up good points! It would be better for a member to see what flag they actually picked. And making the Flagged as Fantastic more visible in some way is a good idea! I, personally, am just not sure of how visible it should be, just cause I haven't thought very deeply about it yet.
But letting a member know that something of theirs was FaF sounds like a good first step! I've put it in the Feature Request form.
'Cause yeah, FaF are only see by mods at the moment, probably as way for members to suggest items for the sidebar or Best Of blog.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:25 PM on March 14 [1 favorite]
But you bring up good points! It would be better for a member to see what flag they actually picked. And making the Flagged as Fantastic more visible in some way is a good idea! I, personally, am just not sure of how visible it should be, just cause I haven't thought very deeply about it yet.
But letting a member know that something of theirs was FaF sounds like a good first step! I've put it in the Feature Request form.
'Cause yeah, FaF are only see by mods at the moment, probably as way for members to suggest items for the sidebar or Best Of blog.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:25 PM on March 14 [1 favorite]
no one has emailed us saying "oops, I flagged something as fantastic when I didn't mean to"
For what it's worth I've done that.
One thing I've never done in 24 years is email the mods, although I did give Matthowie an earful at a tech conference once.
posted by mmoncur at 7:40 PM on March 14 [3 favorites]
For what it's worth I've done that.
One thing I've never done in 24 years is email the mods, although I did give Matthowie an earful at a tech conference once.
posted by mmoncur at 7:40 PM on March 14 [3 favorites]
Oh cool, out of curiosity do you remember when you FaF’d something by accident?
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:51 PM on March 14
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:51 PM on March 14
> Misclicking 'flagged as fantastic' has not been an issue at all.
Survivorship-bias.svg
Way back in 2014, a dummy option adding some distance between "fantastic" and "broken" was suggested.
posted by lucidium at 4:47 AM on March 15 [6 favorites]
Survivorship-bias.svg
Way back in 2014, a dummy option adding some distance between "fantastic" and "broken" was suggested.
posted by lucidium at 4:47 AM on March 15 [6 favorites]
It makes sense that a moderator, who can see what's been flagged as fantastic, thinks it's a great and useful feature. As the rest of us are unable to see what's been flagged, it seems way less useful to anyone who's not a moderator. As there are fewer moderators than non-moderators, it may not make sense to prioritize something most of us can't see, however exciting it is for the people who can see it.
In any event, I agree that "design via MeTa" is not how any of this should be decided.
posted by lapis at 5:15 AM on March 15 [9 favorites]
In any event, I agree that "design via MeTa" is not how any of this should be decided.
posted by lapis at 5:15 AM on March 15 [9 favorites]
I recently unfavorited everything I had ever favorited since 2006 (it took a while), because I became aware while reading a contentious thread that there is a possibility of being judged for favoriting something, and I didn't want that.
You can hide the favorite counts in your profile. It doesn’t stop the toxicity from other people looking at favorite counts, but if enough people hide them, I think it would help bad threads be slightly less bad.
If we were to make only one change I’d want it to be hiding the favorite counts from everybody.
If making multiple changes, having multiple kinds of favorites/bookmarks would be fun.
posted by michaelh at 10:20 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
You can hide the favorite counts in your profile. It doesn’t stop the toxicity from other people looking at favorite counts, but if enough people hide them, I think it would help bad threads be slightly less bad.
If we were to make only one change I’d want it to be hiding the favorite counts from everybody.
If making multiple changes, having multiple kinds of favorites/bookmarks would be fun.
posted by michaelh at 10:20 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
The fun thing about flagging a post or comment for fantastic is announcing:
flagged for fantastic.
a few times I've almost hit the wrong button but that's on mobile.
posted by clavdivs at 1:17 PM on March 15
flagged for fantastic.
a few times I've almost hit the wrong button but that's on mobile.
posted by clavdivs at 1:17 PM on March 15
count me in as an anxious FaFer. i’ve intended to use flag as fantastic two times and only actually went through with it one time because i use mefi on mobile and was worried about accidentally misclick-bad-flagging and iirc you can’t frantically cancel a flagging after the fact if you do it wrong (i think ?) so anyway i skipped it the second time i thought about it. not super opinionated on this matter but i don’t FaF for this reason.
while i’m here: bookmarks good, designing by whining bad
posted by crime online at 10:06 PM on March 15 [1 favorite]
while i’m here: bookmarks good, designing by whining bad
posted by crime online at 10:06 PM on March 15 [1 favorite]
I've always felt weird that no one can see what anyone has flagged as fantastic. It also seems vague - I know I've flagged comments as fantastic only to point them out to mods as good suggestions, not because I wanted it on the sidebar or whatever.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:06 AM on March 16
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:06 AM on March 16
In one sense I do like the idea of making 'flagged as fantastic' visible, but it is a step closer to up/down votes. I'm a bit conflicted because I like the idea of the poster knowing flag details (but probably not who submitted the flags) as feedback and, to a lesser extent, everyone knowing the same. Still, I don't like the idea of promoting popularity contests.
posted by dg at 4:31 PM on March 16 [2 favorites]
posted by dg at 4:31 PM on March 16 [2 favorites]
One person's supposed popularity contest is another person's respected contribution by their peers. Won't somebody please think of the children?
posted by y2karl at 4:51 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 4:51 PM on March 16 [1 favorite]
I don't want a popularity contest we have enough of those through favorites. But it is weird to think someone flagged a post you made as fantastic but yous never know. It should MeMail you or something.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:09 PM on March 16
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:09 PM on March 16
If we were to make only one change I’d want it to be hiding the favorite counts from everybody.
I'm definitely down with that. The community has thoroughly embraced that bit of toxicity though.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:09 AM on March 17
I'm definitely down with that. The community has thoroughly embraced that bit of toxicity though.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:09 AM on March 17
Just a counterpoint: feedback for comments in the form of favourites I think is actually a plus for discussion in a few ways (but agreed with Kybard overall that it would be great to actually do research on the site and how people use it and proposed new features)
- sometimes it prevents repetitive comments. I personally have used favourites in this way - rather than repeating what someone else said in a different way, I just favourite the closest one.
- I would be curious among the general MetaFilter user, not just the highly-engaged MetaTalk user, whether these provide a sense of belonging and appreciation for people's engagement in answering questions in ask or commenting in Fanfare, etc. That's the reason there are likes all over other social media platforms and...it works. Speaking into a vacuum isn't for everyont.
- in a really long thread sometimes I do skim the favourite count to see what stands out, because frequently those are the comments from actual experts (although sadly more and more they do seem to be sometimes the err, snappiest comments)
I realize there's a contingent of people on MF who are perfectly content answering things and not receiving the equivalent of nods in the room, but I'm not sure that's a majority. I usually skim back over a thread I've contributed to and I notice, and although Platonic Ideal me probably doesn't care, sometimes that it is what keeps me answering things.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:58 AM on March 17 [11 favorites]
- sometimes it prevents repetitive comments. I personally have used favourites in this way - rather than repeating what someone else said in a different way, I just favourite the closest one.
- I would be curious among the general MetaFilter user, not just the highly-engaged MetaTalk user, whether these provide a sense of belonging and appreciation for people's engagement in answering questions in ask or commenting in Fanfare, etc. That's the reason there are likes all over other social media platforms and...it works. Speaking into a vacuum isn't for everyont.
- in a really long thread sometimes I do skim the favourite count to see what stands out, because frequently those are the comments from actual experts (although sadly more and more they do seem to be sometimes the err, snappiest comments)
I realize there's a contingent of people on MF who are perfectly content answering things and not receiving the equivalent of nods in the room, but I'm not sure that's a majority. I usually skim back over a thread I've contributed to and I notice, and although Platonic Ideal me probably doesn't care, sometimes that it is what keeps me answering things.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:58 AM on March 17 [11 favorites]
I realize there's a contingent of people on MF who are perfectly content answering things and not receiving the equivalent of nods in the room, but I'm not sure that's a majority.
I think that's beyond a majority, but just for the record I wasn't suggesting doing away with favorites entirely, just not showing them in the thread. So the nods would continue.
Your point about reducing noise in AskMe is well taken though. And in fact the favorites count is a way of showing what the community thinks is the best answer as opposed to what worked out in the particular case of asker.
So, at least for AskMe I withdraw my comment about favorites being toxic.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:15 AM on March 17 [1 favorite]
I think that's beyond a majority, but just for the record I wasn't suggesting doing away with favorites entirely, just not showing them in the thread. So the nods would continue.
Your point about reducing noise in AskMe is well taken though. And in fact the favorites count is a way of showing what the community thinks is the best answer as opposed to what worked out in the particular case of asker.
So, at least for AskMe I withdraw my comment about favorites being toxic.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:15 AM on March 17 [1 favorite]
Favourites for me are like applause. They're the clapping of hands when we've made a speech or performed a sketch or poem. I favourite things I appreciate, and appreciate it when I get favourites; we get precious little feedback on what we post online, and they're a quick and easy way to give and receive it. As a writer or performer, it's interesting and useful to see what lands with an audience and what doesn't; it's the same here as posters or commenters. Favourites can even be a better indicator of what lands than comment counts or replies themselves.
Because I'm conscious that they're visible, the same way other members of a theatre audience can hear us clapping, I don't use them as bookmarks much; I use browser bookmarks for that. If I favourite a single-link comment, it's to show my appreciation for their taking the time to share it, my agreement with the point made, or my amusement at the way it's been expressed. If there's a risk that leaving a favourite would suggest my approval of a problematic link's contents, I'll usually post a comment instead—another way in which it isn't a bookmark.
Suggesting that public favourites are toxic is to me like saying that applause is toxic. Yes, it can feel upsetting or even oppressive to hear an audience applauding a point you disagree with, and it isn't great to think of bad actors going to extremes to get more of it. But applause can also be positive and supportive. It can be the difference between a good actor keeping going or giving up. If we ban all applause, we're insisting that audiences can only respond to us by coming up one at a time after the show to tell us what they thought. Some might; most won't.
posted by rory at 9:48 AM on March 17 [15 favorites]
Because I'm conscious that they're visible, the same way other members of a theatre audience can hear us clapping, I don't use them as bookmarks much; I use browser bookmarks for that. If I favourite a single-link comment, it's to show my appreciation for their taking the time to share it, my agreement with the point made, or my amusement at the way it's been expressed. If there's a risk that leaving a favourite would suggest my approval of a problematic link's contents, I'll usually post a comment instead—another way in which it isn't a bookmark.
Suggesting that public favourites are toxic is to me like saying that applause is toxic. Yes, it can feel upsetting or even oppressive to hear an audience applauding a point you disagree with, and it isn't great to think of bad actors going to extremes to get more of it. But applause can also be positive and supportive. It can be the difference between a good actor keeping going or giving up. If we ban all applause, we're insisting that audiences can only respond to us by coming up one at a time after the show to tell us what they thought. Some might; most won't.
posted by rory at 9:48 AM on March 17 [15 favorites]
ego boosts aside, favourites work well for me in two particular ways:
1. reading the room. If I wander into a discussion and discern that certain points of view are gaining favour, it may well affect how I choose to voice particular position, or whether I even need or want to ... etc.
2. when somebody really annoys me, one of the first things I do is check their profile and take a look at their most favourited comments. Very often, I find some smart, funny, informed and/or wise stuff. Suddenly, they're not my enemy. They're just somebody I happen to disagree with on a currently heated point.
posted by philip-random at 11:29 AM on March 17 [1 favorite]
1. reading the room. If I wander into a discussion and discern that certain points of view are gaining favour, it may well affect how I choose to voice particular position, or whether I even need or want to ... etc.
2. when somebody really annoys me, one of the first things I do is check their profile and take a look at their most favourited comments. Very often, I find some smart, funny, informed and/or wise stuff. Suddenly, they're not my enemy. They're just somebody I happen to disagree with on a currently heated point.
posted by philip-random at 11:29 AM on March 17 [1 favorite]
Suggesting that public favourites are toxic is to me like saying that applause is toxic.
A count of favourites could still be shown while keeping the page that displays exactly who made the favourite hidden.
posted by Lanark at 11:50 AM on March 17 [2 favorites]
A count of favourites could still be shown while keeping the page that displays exactly who made the favourite hidden.
posted by Lanark at 11:50 AM on March 17 [2 favorites]
I am so against that.
posted by y2karl at 1:22 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 1:22 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
Congratulating someone privately isn't as effective as public applause.
Seeing familiar names turn up in favourites is also part of the impression they make on us as readers. We'd all know each other less if we lost it. Commenting on a public forum isn't a secret ballot.
If we want only the commenter/poster to know what we think, we can DM them. I've had one or two of those... in twenty-five years. They don't really outweigh the favourites in terms of overall impact. We've all been in meetings where we've appreciated the people who stood up and said what others were thinking rather than waiting until afterwards for a quiet word. Their example can give others courage. "Who's with me?"
I imagine a lot of people will be freaking out right now about becoming a target of the US government for liking a tweet or, in Mefi's case, favouriting a comment. I suppose anonymous favourites would spare some of that anxiety. But to avoid their gaze you'd also have to never say anything unacceptable to Trump and MAGA, without even always having a clear sense of what is or isn't acceptable—so best not say anything. Maybe we're doomed to that fate, but we don't have to act like it would be a positive development. Like it's a good life.
posted by rory at 2:38 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
Seeing familiar names turn up in favourites is also part of the impression they make on us as readers. We'd all know each other less if we lost it. Commenting on a public forum isn't a secret ballot.
If we want only the commenter/poster to know what we think, we can DM them. I've had one or two of those... in twenty-five years. They don't really outweigh the favourites in terms of overall impact. We've all been in meetings where we've appreciated the people who stood up and said what others were thinking rather than waiting until afterwards for a quiet word. Their example can give others courage. "Who's with me?"
I imagine a lot of people will be freaking out right now about becoming a target of the US government for liking a tweet or, in Mefi's case, favouriting a comment. I suppose anonymous favourites would spare some of that anxiety. But to avoid their gaze you'd also have to never say anything unacceptable to Trump and MAGA, without even always having a clear sense of what is or isn't acceptable—so best not say anything. Maybe we're doomed to that fate, but we don't have to act like it would be a positive development. Like it's a good life.
posted by rory at 2:38 PM on March 17 [2 favorites]
you can't make creamed corn without thinking into the cornfield
posted by ginger.beef at 9:42 AM on March 18 [1 favorite]
posted by ginger.beef at 9:42 AM on March 18 [1 favorite]
if you're in the middle of a 12 acre cornfield,
if the rows go one way but the other way is quicker, this is called Walking between the rows.
this can be an unnerving experience as walking between the rows will destroy more corn than walking the row's'.
the corn is 7.5 ft tall, corn silk thick as tea leaves.
scarecrows can have corn silk hair and a hat.
my father got busted when he was 9 smoking corn silk.
Karen Silkwood
is a hashtag to government BOO.
human to us.
I like the idea of bookmarks.
it was hard to go back to find old posts, favorite them again so it's on top,so you can keep track of it until you forget it again but you really didnt want too.
I remember a one thread, 14 years ago, one comment got nearly 400 favorites that's pretty high currency here, but it shouldn't stop one from questioning the statement if it might be discussed or challenged on a point. it's in the end if minds can meet, one favorite can feel like 400... 401.
imagine if more of the flags were fantastic then for something else.
no open flags to community ever only to moderators. period.
no one-way near favorites whatever.
posted by clavdivs at 2:18 PM on March 18 [3 favorites]
if the rows go one way but the other way is quicker, this is called Walking between the rows.
this can be an unnerving experience as walking between the rows will destroy more corn than walking the row's'.
the corn is 7.5 ft tall, corn silk thick as tea leaves.
scarecrows can have corn silk hair and a hat.
my father got busted when he was 9 smoking corn silk.
Karen Silkwood
is a hashtag to government BOO.
human to us.
I like the idea of bookmarks.
it was hard to go back to find old posts, favorite them again so it's on top,so you can keep track of it until you forget it again but you really didnt want too.
I remember a one thread, 14 years ago, one comment got nearly 400 favorites that's pretty high currency here, but it shouldn't stop one from questioning the statement if it might be discussed or challenged on a point. it's in the end if minds can meet, one favorite can feel like 400... 401.
imagine if more of the flags were fantastic then for something else.
no open flags to community ever only to moderators. period.
no one-way near favorites whatever.
posted by clavdivs at 2:18 PM on March 18 [3 favorites]
I thought flags were my way of colonizing your comment
flag every time and you win
posted by ginger.beef at 8:43 AM on March 19 [5 favorites]
flag every time and you win
posted by ginger.beef at 8:43 AM on March 19 [5 favorites]
Flags are a great way to steal entire countries!
posted by Vatnesine at 10:12 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
posted by Vatnesine at 10:12 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
...if you're in the middle of a 12 acre cornfield ...no open flags to community ever only to moderators. period. no one-way near favorites whatever.
Makes sense to me -- Please renew my subscription to your pamphlet!
posted by y2karl at 10:23 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
Makes sense to me -- Please renew my subscription to your pamphlet!
posted by y2karl at 10:23 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
I imagine a lot of people will be freaking out right now about becoming a target of the US government for liking a tweet or, in Mefi's case, favouriting a comment.
...or maybe just the target of a MetaTalk comment.
posted by mmoncur at 6:01 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
...or maybe just the target of a MetaTalk comment.
posted by mmoncur at 6:01 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
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Hey, I've updated the FAQ on Favorites to include the link where they were first announced decades ago in 2006.
*pauses to think about all the years gone by*
Anyway, here's Matt (the creator of MeFi) explaining why they're called Favorites instead of bookmarks and why they were made to be public.
As to decoupling bookmarks from Favorites that won't be done on the current site, but it's up to the users to decide if that will happen on the new site, so please talk it out y'all!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:35 AM on March 12 [3 favorites]