Leaving the USA? February 3, 2025 12:29 PM Subscribe
This thread is meant for discussion and information for Mefites thinking of leaving the USA because of the political situation. Mexico is my leading contender. But the discussion is open for anywhere.
I am thinking about it. Looking at places where I can get citizenship, but I don’t know much about places that will give visas.
Also, is there anywhere that will let people with US JDs study a little more and take their version of a bar exam? Is there a foreign equivalent of an LLM program?
posted by corb at 2:26 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
Also, is there anywhere that will let people with US JDs study a little more and take their version of a bar exam? Is there a foreign equivalent of an LLM program?
posted by corb at 2:26 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
Also, is there anywhere that will let people with US JDs study a little more and take their version of a bar exam?
The "easiest" route is to get a job with a big, international firm in the US, then transfer to an overseas office to a country that allows US attorneys to practice US law in that country without a further license (e.g. Germany allows this, Japan does not). So, uhh, I hope you planned ahead and are in the top 10% of your class at a T20 school 😬 Or you could build a self-sufficient book of business that can be handled 100% remotely and move to a digital nomad-friendly jurisdiction. There are attorneys that have managed that, but I get the impression that it's pretty rarefied company.
If you want to practice local law, then theoretically you'd have a small leg up in the other common law countries, but my understanding is that it usually involves non-trivial remedial coursework and passing the equivalent of the bar exam. In some of the common law countries you'd also have a period of supervised practice, and slots for those can be difficult to come by.
A particular version of the first route is IP, specifically patent and trademark prosecution*. The US Patent Office has a weird rule that requires that foreign-domiciled applicants be represented by US-licensed attorneys, so there are some non-US firms that occasionally hire US-licensed attorneys to live in that non-US country and practice US IP law. My impression is that this is mainly a patent thing, which means being admitted to practice before the USPTO as a patent attorney, which requires a technical background and taking the patent bar exam.
* For clarification for non-lawyers: "prosecution" in this context means filing patent and trademark applications; it doesn't have anything to do with criminal prosecution.
posted by jedicus at 2:56 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
The "easiest" route is to get a job with a big, international firm in the US, then transfer to an overseas office to a country that allows US attorneys to practice US law in that country without a further license (e.g. Germany allows this, Japan does not). So, uhh, I hope you planned ahead and are in the top 10% of your class at a T20 school 😬 Or you could build a self-sufficient book of business that can be handled 100% remotely and move to a digital nomad-friendly jurisdiction. There are attorneys that have managed that, but I get the impression that it's pretty rarefied company.
If you want to practice local law, then theoretically you'd have a small leg up in the other common law countries, but my understanding is that it usually involves non-trivial remedial coursework and passing the equivalent of the bar exam. In some of the common law countries you'd also have a period of supervised practice, and slots for those can be difficult to come by.
A particular version of the first route is IP, specifically patent and trademark prosecution*. The US Patent Office has a weird rule that requires that foreign-domiciled applicants be represented by US-licensed attorneys, so there are some non-US firms that occasionally hire US-licensed attorneys to live in that non-US country and practice US IP law. My impression is that this is mainly a patent thing, which means being admitted to practice before the USPTO as a patent attorney, which requires a technical background and taking the patent bar exam.
* For clarification for non-lawyers: "prosecution" in this context means filing patent and trademark applications; it doesn't have anything to do with criminal prosecution.
posted by jedicus at 2:56 PM on February 3 [2 favorites]
Corb, the Australian Law Society has some information on US lawyers wanting to practice in Australia here. That doesn't address the visa requirements, though.
Not for the first time, I'll suggest Australia or New Zealand. They are both countries where Americans can readily fit in, although there are obviously cultural differences from the US. I was born in NZ, but have lived in Australia for over 40 years. I work in the education industry with a very strong involvement in overseas students, so I'm particularly familiar with the student visa framework and the pathways that can provide to permanent residency.
You can explore visa options for Australia here and for New Zealand here. The requirements are pretty similar for both countries, but I'm not as familiar with the NZ system as I am with Australia's. Both countries are very welcoming to migrants and rely on migration to maintain the population and availability of skilled workers.
Both countries have a high degree of safety and stability and are no places where you need to be worried about violence at all in everyday life. They're not perfect, but gun violence is something that is notably different to the US. In both countries, semi-automatic and automatic weapons are completely outlawed and gun ownership is very tightly controlled and enforced. For example, in Australia, you require a licence to own a rifle and must store it in a gun safe (permanently fixed into a building and out of sight), with the bolt and ammunition being stored in separate locked spaces. Police can and do undertake random checks of licence-holders to check this. Simply, guns are not part of everyday life and it would never occur to the average person that anyone they come into contact with would even have access to a gun ever, never mind be carrying one. I do feel like New Zealand is more welcoming to those of other countries than Australia (although this varies in Australia greatly on a regional basis) and Australia is a very 'white' country in many ways. However, both countries have very high levels of migrant or second-generation migrant populations and are pretty easy-going and friendly. Thre are racists everywhere, of course.
Both countries have universal health care so, if you need medical attention, you'll get it at no cost. There are exceptions and faults, but the health care systems are generally world-class and free (well, funded by a tax levy that everyone pays, but it's 2% of taxable income (in Australia), more for high-income earners.
Both countries suffer from the cost-of-living stress that seems to be endemic at the moment, but they are relatively inexpensive places to live, although slightly higher than the US. The minimum wage in Australia is AUD24.10 per hour and in New Zealand NZD23.15. Some things like fuel and cars are higher-priced than the US, but food seems to be slightly cheaper. Housing is a challenge at the moment for both countries, with shortages leading to high purchase and rental costs.
Specific to Australia (while NZ is very similar, there are important differences that I don't have the expertise to understand fully), there are a small number of realistic pathways to residency, with the most common being via either study or skilled work. Skilled work pathways are difficult to obtain and generally require very specialised skills that are in shortage here. There is a list of shortage status for every occupation here.
Study pathways are probably the most reliable and involve being accepted by a college that is registered for overseas students. There are lots of wrinkles, but generally the best pathway is to study for two years or longer in a regional area with identified skills shortages. Decisions about what and where you study dramatically impact the chance of remaining in Australia beyond graduation. Overseas students can work up to 48 hours per fortnight during term time and it's very common for them to be studying full-time and working enough to support themselves.
Student visas are generally not available to anyone over 45 and, while there's no official limit, much harder for anyone over 35 to get. Spouses and children can apply for a 'student dependant visa' that allows them to accompany the student. Spouses have unlimited work rights and school-age children must attend school while in Australia (free for state schools). Overseas students (and any dependants) must hold Overseas Student Health Cover, which costs several hundred $ per year for a single and up to $12k for a family and allows the same medical coverage as a permanent resident (ie excellent cover).
If you are just looking to get out of the US for the next four years, a study pathway would work, as there are post-study visas for 1-2 years available once you graduate.
If this is something you're interested in, I strongly recommend you seek help from a migration agent, preferably one that is 'MARA registered'. Unfortunately, there are lots of shonky operators in this field, so be very careful. MARA-registered agents are at least overseen and monitored, although there would not be lots of these in the US. It is possible to apply for a student visa from within Australia while holding a vistor visa or ETA. Contact me on MeMail if you have any specific questions or just want to explore what your chances might be.
posted by dg at 4:33 PM on February 3 [7 favorites]
Not for the first time, I'll suggest Australia or New Zealand. They are both countries where Americans can readily fit in, although there are obviously cultural differences from the US. I was born in NZ, but have lived in Australia for over 40 years. I work in the education industry with a very strong involvement in overseas students, so I'm particularly familiar with the student visa framework and the pathways that can provide to permanent residency.
You can explore visa options for Australia here and for New Zealand here. The requirements are pretty similar for both countries, but I'm not as familiar with the NZ system as I am with Australia's. Both countries are very welcoming to migrants and rely on migration to maintain the population and availability of skilled workers.
Both countries have a high degree of safety and stability and are no places where you need to be worried about violence at all in everyday life. They're not perfect, but gun violence is something that is notably different to the US. In both countries, semi-automatic and automatic weapons are completely outlawed and gun ownership is very tightly controlled and enforced. For example, in Australia, you require a licence to own a rifle and must store it in a gun safe (permanently fixed into a building and out of sight), with the bolt and ammunition being stored in separate locked spaces. Police can and do undertake random checks of licence-holders to check this. Simply, guns are not part of everyday life and it would never occur to the average person that anyone they come into contact with would even have access to a gun ever, never mind be carrying one. I do feel like New Zealand is more welcoming to those of other countries than Australia (although this varies in Australia greatly on a regional basis) and Australia is a very 'white' country in many ways. However, both countries have very high levels of migrant or second-generation migrant populations and are pretty easy-going and friendly. Thre are racists everywhere, of course.
Both countries have universal health care so, if you need medical attention, you'll get it at no cost. There are exceptions and faults, but the health care systems are generally world-class and free (well, funded by a tax levy that everyone pays, but it's 2% of taxable income (in Australia), more for high-income earners.
Both countries suffer from the cost-of-living stress that seems to be endemic at the moment, but they are relatively inexpensive places to live, although slightly higher than the US. The minimum wage in Australia is AUD24.10 per hour and in New Zealand NZD23.15. Some things like fuel and cars are higher-priced than the US, but food seems to be slightly cheaper. Housing is a challenge at the moment for both countries, with shortages leading to high purchase and rental costs.
Specific to Australia (while NZ is very similar, there are important differences that I don't have the expertise to understand fully), there are a small number of realistic pathways to residency, with the most common being via either study or skilled work. Skilled work pathways are difficult to obtain and generally require very specialised skills that are in shortage here. There is a list of shortage status for every occupation here.
Study pathways are probably the most reliable and involve being accepted by a college that is registered for overseas students. There are lots of wrinkles, but generally the best pathway is to study for two years or longer in a regional area with identified skills shortages. Decisions about what and where you study dramatically impact the chance of remaining in Australia beyond graduation. Overseas students can work up to 48 hours per fortnight during term time and it's very common for them to be studying full-time and working enough to support themselves.
Student visas are generally not available to anyone over 45 and, while there's no official limit, much harder for anyone over 35 to get. Spouses and children can apply for a 'student dependant visa' that allows them to accompany the student. Spouses have unlimited work rights and school-age children must attend school while in Australia (free for state schools). Overseas students (and any dependants) must hold Overseas Student Health Cover, which costs several hundred $ per year for a single and up to $12k for a family and allows the same medical coverage as a permanent resident (ie excellent cover).
If you are just looking to get out of the US for the next four years, a study pathway would work, as there are post-study visas for 1-2 years available once you graduate.
If this is something you're interested in, I strongly recommend you seek help from a migration agent, preferably one that is 'MARA registered'. Unfortunately, there are lots of shonky operators in this field, so be very careful. MARA-registered agents are at least overseen and monitored, although there would not be lots of these in the US. It is possible to apply for a student visa from within Australia while holding a vistor visa or ETA. Contact me on MeMail if you have any specific questions or just want to explore what your chances might be.
posted by dg at 4:33 PM on February 3 [7 favorites]
I'll add re New Zealand that we are a small country by population and a very, very long way from most sources of manufactured goods. This means if you have interests that are remotely niche by US standards your chances of finding other people who share those interests are not good, and you will find the range of things you can buy much narrower and the cost of things you can buy way higher than you are used to, especially since incomes are lower here. You can fit in all right, but culture shock is still possible. If you are a big city person, there is no big city by world standards, but if you always wanted to live in a small town this may be the place for you.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:49 PM on February 3 [7 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:49 PM on February 3 [7 favorites]
A path for physicians to Canada
If you have $1M to let sit idle, you can lend it interest-free to Canada and gain permanent residency by a passive investment in Quebec.
posted by Dashy at 4:54 PM on February 3 [3 favorites]
If you have $1M to let sit idle, you can lend it interest-free to Canada and gain permanent residency by a passive investment in Quebec.
posted by Dashy at 4:54 PM on February 3 [3 favorites]
I asked ChatGPT for guidance on when to leave, and it was very helpful.
posted by NotLost at 5:08 PM on February 3
posted by NotLost at 5:08 PM on February 3
The time to leave was after the decision in Bush v Gore.
"Everything else is commentary."
posted by Lemkin at 5:30 PM on February 3 [3 favorites]
"Everything else is commentary."
posted by Lemkin at 5:30 PM on February 3 [3 favorites]
The time to leave was after the decision in Bush v Gore.
I mean okay but they're confiscating passports and refusing to return documents from transgender people so perhaps we can be forgiven for thinking this is an opportune moment to have this conversation. I mean I personally don't have any good answers but there are real concerns and flippancy seems a little misplaced.
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:33 PM on February 3 [45 favorites]
I mean okay but they're confiscating passports and refusing to return documents from transgender people so perhaps we can be forgiven for thinking this is an opportune moment to have this conversation. I mean I personally don't have any good answers but there are real concerns and flippancy seems a little misplaced.
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:33 PM on February 3 [45 favorites]
We don't have immediate plans to leave, but it seems important to ask in this crowd: What are the restrictions on migration for people who have an autism diagnosis? Where can you not go? Where can you go, but only if you promise to self-fund all diagnosis-related medical care?
posted by eirias at 7:56 PM on February 3 [3 favorites]
posted by eirias at 7:56 PM on February 3 [3 favorites]
I am not a New Zealand immigration expert but my understanding is we don't care about your autism diagnosis if you are a skilled migrant. But we have a generally ableist policy against dependants and spouses who have any kind of serious medical condition that might require expensive treatment . And you yourself must pass an acceptable standard of health assessment.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:44 PM on February 3 [3 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:44 PM on February 3 [3 favorites]
The wealthiest and most well-positioned for long term success people I know are looking at property in Ireland. Probably not full immigration but residency. Undoubtedly there are problems they have yet to iron out, and it would make far more sense for people who aren’t ridiculously rich to go elsewhere, but it seems like there are some pretty straightforward pathways to get to Ireland legally and comfortably. It sounds like they are going to make sort of a foothold there in the hopes that it will help family and friends be able to more easily come over in the future, find jobs and all that. A very reverse early 20th century vibe. Ireland does have an interesting and surprisingly positive history with queer rights, too, but I am doubtful about the ability of their healthcare system to provide for an influx of trans folks, and their shitty English neighbors likely make it harder. On the other hand, if you’re a medical professional with experience in that field, I bet you can get a job quickly. I am certainly not, and would probably have to get hitched to someone with proven Irish ancestry and go be an economic burden in the hillside, but it’s all just exploring options for now, anyway.
posted by Mizu at 1:13 AM on February 4
posted by Mizu at 1:13 AM on February 4
If I had the money and the ability, I would start the process for my mom in the US but her Alzheimer's prevents her from being eligible to come up here. She, unfortunately, would fall under the medical inadmissibility reasoning of "excessive demand on health and social services."
posted by Kitteh at 3:31 AM on February 4
posted by Kitteh at 3:31 AM on February 4
If you're an American citizen and have a grandparent who was born in Ireland as an Irish citizen, in many cases, you're eligible for Irish citizenship. If anyone fits that requirement and is interested in learning about the process, please get in touch with me! I still have some notes from when I successfully applied for my citizenship and would be happy to share.
posted by punchtothehead at 6:57 AM on February 4 [3 favorites]
posted by punchtothehead at 6:57 AM on February 4 [3 favorites]
If anyone's considering the UK, I'm not an immigration lawyer, but I spent ~15 years staring down the business end of the Home Office as an immigrant, so I can give some limited advice and pointers to official information.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:13 AM on February 4 [5 favorites]
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:13 AM on February 4 [5 favorites]
Hi all-- my regular offer to discuss the Netherlands and the DAFT treaty, if this is interesting for people.
Under the Dutch American Friendship Treaty, you can set up your own business in the Netherlands with a minimum investment of 4500 euro in the business. The visa is good for two years and you can apply for permanent residence after 5. Note that housing in the Netherlands, like many places in the EU, is in crisis mode right now. So expect to pay a lot for rental or purchase.
If anyone wants to discuss what living in the Netherlands is like, feel free to DM me.
posted by frumiousb at 7:49 AM on February 4 [7 favorites]
Under the Dutch American Friendship Treaty, you can set up your own business in the Netherlands with a minimum investment of 4500 euro in the business. The visa is good for two years and you can apply for permanent residence after 5. Note that housing in the Netherlands, like many places in the EU, is in crisis mode right now. So expect to pay a lot for rental or purchase.
If anyone wants to discuss what living in the Netherlands is like, feel free to DM me.
posted by frumiousb at 7:49 AM on February 4 [7 favorites]
(I think autism would not be an issue for DAFT so long as you can run your own business. I should also note that there is a very real risk trump will blow this treaty up. But for the moment, it is in place.)
posted by frumiousb at 7:52 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
posted by frumiousb at 7:52 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
For people who have non-visa/immigration questions about the UK, you can DM me (15+ years in the biz) OR if you are on reddit, check out /r/AmericanExpatsUK. There's a sticky for people unhappy with election results.
posted by Ms. Moonlight at 8:37 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
posted by Ms. Moonlight at 8:37 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
What are the restrictions on migration for people who have an autism diagnosis?
In New Zealand I'm given to understand you should be able to bring yourself if you're coming on a work visa, but probably not a dependent with an autism diagnosis.
Be aware that we currently have a pretty major unemployment problem, particularly with recently redundant public servants, and you can't offer a job to a migrant on a work visa until you've demonstrated you can't find a New Zealander to do it. There are also a lot of New Zealanders moving to Australia and other countries because we can't afford to live long-term on New Zealand salaries.
Please don't go ask at the r/newzealand subreddit, the mods are currently playing whack-a-mole with immigration queries. They have a pretty good list of resources under the movetonz bot, e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1hxy3kr/comment/m6d3865/
posted by ngaiotonga at 9:33 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
In New Zealand I'm given to understand you should be able to bring yourself if you're coming on a work visa, but probably not a dependent with an autism diagnosis.
Be aware that we currently have a pretty major unemployment problem, particularly with recently redundant public servants, and you can't offer a job to a migrant on a work visa until you've demonstrated you can't find a New Zealander to do it. There are also a lot of New Zealanders moving to Australia and other countries because we can't afford to live long-term on New Zealand salaries.
Please don't go ask at the r/newzealand subreddit, the mods are currently playing whack-a-mole with immigration queries. They have a pretty good list of resources under the movetonz bot, e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1hxy3kr/comment/m6d3865/
posted by ngaiotonga at 9:33 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
This article may be helpful for folks: there are a *lot* of jus sanguinis or leges sanguinis countries where you can attain citizenship either as a result of your parents or grandparents, or more easily if you are ethnically connected to the country. This may also be a way of getting around disability bars, as they likely do not have the medical exams/qualifications for these processes as much.
posted by corb at 11:12 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 11:12 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
I am not a New Zealand immigration expert but my understanding is we don't care about your autism diagnosis if you are a skilled migrant. But we have a generally ableist policy
I am likewise not a Canadian immigration expert though I've just been through the process with a spousal application for my American partner and the Canadian government only cared whether or not he had TB and some other unspecified stuff you can pick up with blood tests; there were no medical questions about stuff like autism. It's probably different for dependents.
I highly recommend our attorneys, North Star Immigration Law (@nsil.bsky.social). Don't get an immigration "consultant", get a lawyer. Immigrating, in 2023/2024 (we filed in 2023 but moved in 2024), cost $7000 for the attorney and about $3000 in fees, including an optional $1500 for an expedited work visa we didn't end up needing. However, that's the easy mode because I'm Canadian and could sponsor him. Happy to answer any questions by DM.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:23 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
I am likewise not a Canadian immigration expert though I've just been through the process with a spousal application for my American partner and the Canadian government only cared whether or not he had TB and some other unspecified stuff you can pick up with blood tests; there were no medical questions about stuff like autism. It's probably different for dependents.
I highly recommend our attorneys, North Star Immigration Law (@nsil.bsky.social). Don't get an immigration "consultant", get a lawyer. Immigrating, in 2023/2024 (we filed in 2023 but moved in 2024), cost $7000 for the attorney and about $3000 in fees, including an optional $1500 for an expedited work visa we didn't end up needing. However, that's the easy mode because I'm Canadian and could sponsor him. Happy to answer any questions by DM.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:23 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
What are the restrictions on migration for people who have an autism diagnosis?
For Australia, it's not very clear, but there's information about health requirements here. There's nothing specific about anything much except TB and a few other things like Syphilis and Hepatitis, but an assessment is made as to whether a person would incur 'a significant healthcare and community service cost to the Australian community' or be 'likely to limit the access of Australian citizens and permanent residents to healthcare and community services that are in short supply by placing demand on those services' (these are currently only transplants and dialysis). I imagine something like Autism would have to be considered on a case-by-case basis and there is provision for a 'health waiver' where someone doesn't meet the health requirements but doesn't pose a significant risk or cost - information on this is about as vague as could be.
There's no distinction between a 'primary applicant' and any family members - they all need to have complete health checks.
posted by dg at 2:10 PM on February 4
For Australia, it's not very clear, but there's information about health requirements here. There's nothing specific about anything much except TB and a few other things like Syphilis and Hepatitis, but an assessment is made as to whether a person would incur 'a significant healthcare and community service cost to the Australian community' or be 'likely to limit the access of Australian citizens and permanent residents to healthcare and community services that are in short supply by placing demand on those services' (these are currently only transplants and dialysis). I imagine something like Autism would have to be considered on a case-by-case basis and there is provision for a 'health waiver' where someone doesn't meet the health requirements but doesn't pose a significant risk or cost - information on this is about as vague as could be.
There's no distinction between a 'primary applicant' and any family members - they all need to have complete health checks.
posted by dg at 2:10 PM on February 4
If you're fortunate enough to be able to afford it, there are a number of countries where you can buy citizenship. Until last year, there was a similar program in Australia, for a lot more money, but the program is now closed.
posted by dg at 2:15 PM on February 4
posted by dg at 2:15 PM on February 4
Why is this in MeTa instead of Ask?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:28 PM on February 4 [8 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:28 PM on February 4 [8 favorites]
If people have questions about Mexico, as a longtime immigrant in Mexico City with permanent residency, I'll do my best to answer questions, by MeMail if you prefer. Note that Mexico City natives are a bit fed up with American remote workers who came down here during the pandemic already, and they've certainly contributed to gentrification, but I will still help people to get the hell out of Dodge if they need to, gentrification be damned.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:16 PM on February 4
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:16 PM on February 4
Mod note: Why is this in MeTa instead of Ask?
Because the member who submitted it to the MeTa queue seemed to want have a discussion with other members of the community as opposed to AskMe's stricter 'just answer the question' Content Policy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:38 PM on February 4 [6 favorites]
Because the member who submitted it to the MeTa queue seemed to want have a discussion with other members of the community as opposed to AskMe's stricter 'just answer the question' Content Policy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:38 PM on February 4 [6 favorites]
Joakim Ziegler, my spouse and I are considering Mexico.
But we knew only rudimentary Spanish, not enough to carry on a conversation, yet. We are in our 60s but still working. I have a remote job and am seeking permission from my employer to do my job from out of the country. I expect we would want to integrate as much as we are able and not just associate with just other expatriates.
Do you have have suggestions on good areas of the country to consider settling in?
posted by NotLost at 7:55 PM on February 4
But we knew only rudimentary Spanish, not enough to carry on a conversation, yet. We are in our 60s but still working. I have a remote job and am seeking permission from my employer to do my job from out of the country. I expect we would want to integrate as much as we are able and not just associate with just other expatriates.
Do you have have suggestions on good areas of the country to consider settling in?
posted by NotLost at 7:55 PM on February 4
Here in Denmark, we have a severe shortage of skilled workers. But you have to find a job before you apply for a work permit, you can't just arrive and look around. If you are a doctor, a nurse, a chemist or biochemist, an engineer (any field), any type of construction worker*, anyone working within shipping or anyone working within the defense industry, there are jobs for you. Compared to our many guest workers from the EU it's an advantage that you speak good English. Many workplaces are English speaking by default. The big organizations, like Maersk, NOVO or Oersted will help your spouse or SO find a job when you arrive. LEGO won't. They are a bunch of misers.
Everyone says it's hard to learn Danish because all Danes are so quick to shift into English. You don't strictly need Danish to live here, but you will get a better experience of life. Within healthcare, the shortages are mostly in the less populated regions and there you do need Danish, but the shortages are so bad that the hospital may pay for your lessons. The same with teaching jobs.
To begin with, I think you get a tax rebate, but that runs out at some point. Pay is higher than in the US, but so are prices for everything, though outside Copenhagen and Aarhus, housing is affordable. You'd better look here for more information. Like, I don't know when the free healthcare kicks in. Which brings me back to the tax thing. You don't need health insurance (except perhaps in the beginning of your stay here), and you don't need to save up for your kids' education unless you want to send them back to the US for college. So though the taxes may seem high, they really aren't that bad. Cars are heavily taxed, but you might not need one.
Denmark prides itself on being very LGTBQ+ friendly, I can't imagine any problems there. (Though remember there are bigoted people everywhere. Here they hide in the woodworks because it is frowned upon, but they are here). Gay friends have told me it is lonely to be a single gay person outside of the big cities, but I know lots of gay couples who live in the boondocks with no problems.
During the civil rights era, some black musicians relocated here, and created a lively jazz scene. I'm too young to have witnessed it. I won't say Denmark isn't racist towards black people, but it is a different form of racism, and might feel like an improvement for some people. However, Denmark is really racist towards Muslims of color (if you are white, you can go under the radar). You won't feel it as much if you are an academic, but my son-in-law who looks like he might be an Asian Muslim meets it daily as a gardener.
Most immigrants to Denmark find it very hard to integrate with Danes, unless you marry into a Danish family. But there is a lively international community and you don't have to feel lonely at all. (I'm not saying give up in advance, just be prepared).
There are some YouTube channels about moving to Denmark. I like Traveling Young and Robe Trotting, if you want a recommendation.
*Building standards in Denmark are very different from in the US, so you might have to start at a lower wage and less interesting job and then take some courses to work your way up
posted by mumimor at 6:54 AM on February 5 [5 favorites]
Everyone says it's hard to learn Danish because all Danes are so quick to shift into English. You don't strictly need Danish to live here, but you will get a better experience of life. Within healthcare, the shortages are mostly in the less populated regions and there you do need Danish, but the shortages are so bad that the hospital may pay for your lessons. The same with teaching jobs.
To begin with, I think you get a tax rebate, but that runs out at some point. Pay is higher than in the US, but so are prices for everything, though outside Copenhagen and Aarhus, housing is affordable. You'd better look here for more information. Like, I don't know when the free healthcare kicks in. Which brings me back to the tax thing. You don't need health insurance (except perhaps in the beginning of your stay here), and you don't need to save up for your kids' education unless you want to send them back to the US for college. So though the taxes may seem high, they really aren't that bad. Cars are heavily taxed, but you might not need one.
Denmark prides itself on being very LGTBQ+ friendly, I can't imagine any problems there. (Though remember there are bigoted people everywhere. Here they hide in the woodworks because it is frowned upon, but they are here). Gay friends have told me it is lonely to be a single gay person outside of the big cities, but I know lots of gay couples who live in the boondocks with no problems.
During the civil rights era, some black musicians relocated here, and created a lively jazz scene. I'm too young to have witnessed it. I won't say Denmark isn't racist towards black people, but it is a different form of racism, and might feel like an improvement for some people. However, Denmark is really racist towards Muslims of color (if you are white, you can go under the radar). You won't feel it as much if you are an academic, but my son-in-law who looks like he might be an Asian Muslim meets it daily as a gardener.
Most immigrants to Denmark find it very hard to integrate with Danes, unless you marry into a Danish family. But there is a lively international community and you don't have to feel lonely at all. (I'm not saying give up in advance, just be prepared).
There are some YouTube channels about moving to Denmark. I like Traveling Young and Robe Trotting, if you want a recommendation.
*Building standards in Denmark are very different from in the US, so you might have to start at a lower wage and less interesting job and then take some courses to work your way up
posted by mumimor at 6:54 AM on February 5 [5 favorites]
A friend moved his family and his US-based immigration law practice from Utah to Uruguay in December, mostly for political reasons. I haven't checked in with him yet on how it is going, but he is a careful, diligent person who did years of planning beforehand and I'm sure that he would be willing to talk to any US-based lawyers (or non-lawyers) who were investigating such a move. MeMail me if that is interesting to you.
Our backup plan has been Germany for a while--parents have A1-A2 language, our oldest is moving from immersion preschool to immersion K-8 in the fall, and our youngest will start at the preschool then. I'm a software developer who would first seek a transfer to the Munich office with my multinational corp and failing that seek employment in Germany and Austria--my understanding from peers who have done this is that it is very possible if you are relatively senior and willing to swallow a big pay cut. We're not making that move immediately for a variety of reasons but we're going to continue to keep it as a live possibility in the medium and/or long term.
posted by Kwine at 6:58 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]
Our backup plan has been Germany for a while--parents have A1-A2 language, our oldest is moving from immersion preschool to immersion K-8 in the fall, and our youngest will start at the preschool then. I'm a software developer who would first seek a transfer to the Munich office with my multinational corp and failing that seek employment in Germany and Austria--my understanding from peers who have done this is that it is very possible if you are relatively senior and willing to swallow a big pay cut. We're not making that move immediately for a variety of reasons but we're going to continue to keep it as a live possibility in the medium and/or long term.
posted by Kwine at 6:58 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]
Me, my husband, and our soon-to-be-one-year-old son are moving from DC to Cologne (theoretically for a year but...we'll see) in March. I welcome any DMs from those familiar with the area, considering a similar move, or otherwise looking to connect!
posted by mosst at 7:12 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]
posted by mosst at 7:12 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]
If you are weighing up different countries, the UBS Global Wealth report has a good summary comparing the average and median income and levels of inequality.
posted by Lanark at 9:14 AM on February 5
posted by Lanark at 9:14 AM on February 5
I have direct experience with the immigration processes for Ireland and for Portugal. I can't give legal or tax advice but welcome to DM me if you are curious.
posted by 4rtemis at 10:50 AM on February 5
posted by 4rtemis at 10:50 AM on February 5
Do you have have suggestions on good areas of the country to consider settling in?
The textbook answer for your query would be San Miguel de Allende, which already has a ton of American expats of your age group, which makes it easy to live there without knowing too much Spanish (this can be a blessing and a curse, of course). It's also an epicenter for the arts. However, for the same reason, San Miguel is expensive-ish compared to many other places in the country. But, it's safe, comfortable, and pretty picturesque.
I guess I'd start by asking a few basic questions: What's your budget? Do you plan on retiring soon? What kind of environment do you enjoy, urban or more rural? Beach? Mountains? Climate preferences? Tolerance for noise and hustle and bustle? Do you require being close to an international airport? Do you want to enjoy international cuisine and well-stocked supermarkets with international goods?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 11:09 AM on February 5
The textbook answer for your query would be San Miguel de Allende, which already has a ton of American expats of your age group, which makes it easy to live there without knowing too much Spanish (this can be a blessing and a curse, of course). It's also an epicenter for the arts. However, for the same reason, San Miguel is expensive-ish compared to many other places in the country. But, it's safe, comfortable, and pretty picturesque.
I guess I'd start by asking a few basic questions: What's your budget? Do you plan on retiring soon? What kind of environment do you enjoy, urban or more rural? Beach? Mountains? Climate preferences? Tolerance for noise and hustle and bustle? Do you require being close to an international airport? Do you want to enjoy international cuisine and well-stocked supermarkets with international goods?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 11:09 AM on February 5
I’ve done a bit of research on areas of Mexico that could be good for relocating. San Miguel de Allende has been an expat hotspot for a while now. We visited there 11 years ago, and found it a welcoming small city with a high desert climate. We also got along with very rudimentary Spanish. An area that has popped up on our radar more recently is Merida on the Yucatan peninsula. We haven’t been here yet, but it looks promising for safety and climate, along with a pretty well established expat community and services.
Moving south of Mexico, Belize in Central America has a “retirement” visa (available if you’re over 40), and English is the official language there. The flip side is that the country isn’t quite as well developed as the areas I mentioned in Mexico.
Farther afield, both Portugal and Spain are options. Both have digital nomad and retirement visas, though they’re currently swamped with applications. While there are areas of both of these countries with English-speakers (mostly Brits), to successfully integrate into their cultures you’ll need to build your language skills. There also seems to be a bit of a backlash to immigrants from the US recently, mostly because they’ve been driving up home rental and purchase prices and some are better than others at integrating.
posted by SteveInMaine at 2:21 PM on February 5 [1 favorite]
Moving south of Mexico, Belize in Central America has a “retirement” visa (available if you’re over 40), and English is the official language there. The flip side is that the country isn’t quite as well developed as the areas I mentioned in Mexico.
Farther afield, both Portugal and Spain are options. Both have digital nomad and retirement visas, though they’re currently swamped with applications. While there are areas of both of these countries with English-speakers (mostly Brits), to successfully integrate into their cultures you’ll need to build your language skills. There also seems to be a bit of a backlash to immigrants from the US recently, mostly because they’ve been driving up home rental and purchase prices and some are better than others at integrating.
posted by SteveInMaine at 2:21 PM on February 5 [1 favorite]
Hey so I have been legally disabled for just about 20 years now; if anyone here has info on countries that accept disabled immigrants please feel free to MeFiMail me! I am hopeful that I might be able to file an asylum petition somewhere based on the administration's attacks on the disabled. If nothing else I guess I could rent a place in Mexico and just ... go. But I'd like to formally emigrate somewhere and get legal status if possible. Thanks so much.
posted by brina at 4:19 PM on February 5 [1 favorite]
posted by brina at 4:19 PM on February 5 [1 favorite]
An area that has popped up on our radar more recently is Merida on the Yucatan peninsula. We haven’t been here yet, but it looks promising for safety and climate, along with a pretty well established expat community and services.
Merida is nice, I know people who would like to retire there, but it does get quite hot in summer, and it's fairly humid, so it depends on your tolerance for that kind of climate. Given that Merida is in country (although the coast isn't too far away), it's a bit too much for my taste. It's a decently big city with good services and infrastructure, though.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:45 PM on February 5
Merida is nice, I know people who would like to retire there, but it does get quite hot in summer, and it's fairly humid, so it depends on your tolerance for that kind of climate. Given that Merida is in country (although the coast isn't too far away), it's a bit too much for my taste. It's a decently big city with good services and infrastructure, though.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:45 PM on February 5
Following on from dg's resource-full comment, here is the government list of 674 skilled occupations in Australia that can be filled by 5yr+ immigration visa applicants [scroll down].
posted by Thella at 5:40 PM on February 5 [4 favorites]
posted by Thella at 5:40 PM on February 5 [4 favorites]
Is English teaching still a thing for people with bachelor's degrees? Normally, I have passive income, and I expected to be taking the bar this summer, but I'm trying to see what will be the case if we need to leave, like, FAST. And what happens if DOGE cancels all federal payments.
posted by corb at 5:55 PM on February 5
posted by corb at 5:55 PM on February 5
I wish I wasn't at least four or five years away from being able to leave. We're headed to Romania first, as that's where my spouse's family lives. If/when we can get me EU citizenship, we will head somewhere else. Italy, maybe. I've thought way too much about this already.
Here's a checklist I have been making of things to consider when considering moving from the US to another country.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:21 PM on February 5 [6 favorites]
Here's a checklist I have been making of things to consider when considering moving from the US to another country.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:21 PM on February 5 [6 favorites]
I'm not at a point in my life where I can leave the country—too much precious to leave behind, loved-ones and employment-wise—but after visiting Iceland for one week a few years ago, and looking more closely afterward into the more intriguing things about the country, my one persistent thought was, "Well, maybe one day if the cards lined up right; and if absolutely necessary, I would head for there." They seem to have their shit together in a lot of ways that we just do not anymore (and in some cases, never have).
I renewed my passport a few months ago, in case things really went haywire over here. I have no one-perfect-compelling argument to give anyone—just to go take a visit if you can, check it out yourself. It's a cheap and quick flight from the US east coast. The people are generally friendly and speak English better than most of us. There's volcanoes and glaciers and culture. And cute horses. It looks like if Arizona were covered in moss. I'm sure they have some heated political debate, but there are less than 500,000 people in the whole isolated country, so they have no choice but to get along.
posted by not_on_display at 8:50 PM on February 5
I renewed my passport a few months ago, in case things really went haywire over here. I have no one-perfect-compelling argument to give anyone—just to go take a visit if you can, check it out yourself. It's a cheap and quick flight from the US east coast. The people are generally friendly and speak English better than most of us. There's volcanoes and glaciers and culture. And cute horses. It looks like if Arizona were covered in moss. I'm sure they have some heated political debate, but there are less than 500,000 people in the whole isolated country, so they have no choice but to get along.
posted by not_on_display at 8:50 PM on February 5
I've only visited Iceland very briefly, on the way to Greenland. But I think it's worth pointing out that they are completely dependent on and beholden to US defense.
posted by mumimor at 12:53 AM on February 6
posted by mumimor at 12:53 AM on February 6
Is English teaching still a thing for people with bachelor's degrees?
IIRC, someone in AskMe said that that used to be a good pathway into a country but it isn't as much anymore. Again, I think a lot of people's plans relies on who they can get to sponsor them for a job and a visa. If you have a lot of money, it's less stressful because they can coast on a long term visitor visa while they figure out the best next steps. And unfortunately, it takes money. Depending on the country, you will have to have enough for your own medical care, be able to open a bank account in the country you have chosen, figure out housing, etc. When I was waiting for my PR in Canada, I spent a year not being able to work legally. If I didn't have a working Canadian spouse to support me during that time, it would not have been great. In Canada at least, you don't have access to the assistance while you wait. IIRC, Quebec let me enter their healthcare system with my temporary visa or similar, but I'd have to confirm with Shepherd about that.
posted by Kitteh at 3:48 AM on February 6 [2 favorites]
IIRC, someone in AskMe said that that used to be a good pathway into a country but it isn't as much anymore. Again, I think a lot of people's plans relies on who they can get to sponsor them for a job and a visa. If you have a lot of money, it's less stressful because they can coast on a long term visitor visa while they figure out the best next steps. And unfortunately, it takes money. Depending on the country, you will have to have enough for your own medical care, be able to open a bank account in the country you have chosen, figure out housing, etc. When I was waiting for my PR in Canada, I spent a year not being able to work legally. If I didn't have a working Canadian spouse to support me during that time, it would not have been great. In Canada at least, you don't have access to the assistance while you wait. IIRC, Quebec let me enter their healthcare system with my temporary visa or similar, but I'd have to confirm with Shepherd about that.
posted by Kitteh at 3:48 AM on February 6 [2 favorites]
Something to add to your calculations:
I absolutely love living here, and I will likely stay even if the worst happens. But it is a consideration.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:56 AM on February 6 [3 favorites]
- The US president is a megalomaniac who is clearly looking to expand the United States
- Mexican cartels have been designated as terrorist organizations
- The Mexican government is supposedly supporting them, which makes it state-sponsored terrorism
- The largest lithium (as in lithium battery) deposits in the world were recently discovered 50 miles south of the Arizona border
- Bonus points: the Gulf of Mexico was just renamed the Gulf of America
I absolutely love living here, and I will likely stay even if the worst happens. But it is a consideration.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:56 AM on February 6 [3 favorites]
Something else to add to everyone's calculations - I say these not to discourage folks, but just to add to the thought process: When you move to a country that is not the US, you're also moving to a brand new culture. That also means learning a brand new culture. From scratch. With no handbook. And nobody to tell you what the parameters are.
And I don't just mean "finding the cool restaurants and bars and stuff". I mean - how do you navigate the DMV when you need a driver's license? How do you work with the power company to set up a power bill? How do you get your car registered if you have one/need one? How do you grocery shop in a language that may not be your first? How do you successfully integrate with your neighbors (in your building, on your street, wherever) in a community who at first won't understand literally anything about you? (Google Translate won't solve every problem!) Where do you buy that one thing that you can't suddenly get on Amazon or Target dot com because those services don't deliver to Denmark or Costa Rica or wherever you are now? Online resources can help, but lived experience is really the only way to answer these questions.
There are a million little calculations that go into every moment of waking life as an English-speaking American that we all take for granted, that we never do, that you will all of a sudden have to do all. the. time.
Again: Not to discourage! Just something for y'all to think about as you decide where is feasible to go. Language and culture are big daily obstacles for folks if they only speak one and have only ever lived in one. I suspect this problem is easier to navigate the younger you are, but it is still something to keep in mind.
posted by pdb at 7:32 AM on February 6 [6 favorites]
And I don't just mean "finding the cool restaurants and bars and stuff". I mean - how do you navigate the DMV when you need a driver's license? How do you work with the power company to set up a power bill? How do you get your car registered if you have one/need one? How do you grocery shop in a language that may not be your first? How do you successfully integrate with your neighbors (in your building, on your street, wherever) in a community who at first won't understand literally anything about you? (Google Translate won't solve every problem!) Where do you buy that one thing that you can't suddenly get on Amazon or Target dot com because those services don't deliver to Denmark or Costa Rica or wherever you are now? Online resources can help, but lived experience is really the only way to answer these questions.
There are a million little calculations that go into every moment of waking life as an English-speaking American that we all take for granted, that we never do, that you will all of a sudden have to do all. the. time.
Again: Not to discourage! Just something for y'all to think about as you decide where is feasible to go. Language and culture are big daily obstacles for folks if they only speak one and have only ever lived in one. I suspect this problem is easier to navigate the younger you are, but it is still something to keep in mind.
posted by pdb at 7:32 AM on February 6 [6 favorites]
If you are able to emigrate to Canada and you chose Quebec, I can verify that you can take French language lessons for free. (I hope they did not change that.) My initial landing point was the Eastern Townships and aside from a few Anglo enclaves, it was pure French all the way. I ended up in Ontario five years after landing here but I am grateful that I was able to fumble my way through those French classes.
posted by Kitteh at 7:36 AM on February 6 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 7:36 AM on February 6 [2 favorites]
I’m an American citizen living in Mexico and I give it about a 10% chance that the U.S. will lay claim to as much of northern Mexico as is necessary for Musk to get his hands on those mines. And I will become an enemy alien.
I agree with your assessment that a US military occupation, at least, of Mexican territory near the border is not entirely impossible over the next few years. I don't know how that will affect your legal status in Mexico (I'm not American, so I would probably not be affected in that sense). On one hand, I'd think it'd probably not make Mexicans like you more, but on the other hand, in my experience, Mexicans are pretty good at separating the actions of a government from the actions of individuals (and are generally very friendly to foreigners).
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 2:50 PM on February 7
I agree with your assessment that a US military occupation, at least, of Mexican territory near the border is not entirely impossible over the next few years. I don't know how that will affect your legal status in Mexico (I'm not American, so I would probably not be affected in that sense). On one hand, I'd think it'd probably not make Mexicans like you more, but on the other hand, in my experience, Mexicans are pretty good at separating the actions of a government from the actions of individuals (and are generally very friendly to foreigners).
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 2:50 PM on February 7
On one hand, I'd think it'd probably not make Mexicans like you more, but on the other hand, in my experience, Mexicans are pretty good at separating the actions of a government from the actions of individuals (and are generally very friendly to foreigners.)
Yeah, I’m not particularly concerned with the people I know, or even the people I don’t know, taking things out on me. However, as you are pointing out the actions of individuals can vary greatly from the actions of governments. If the US starts expelling Mexican citizens with American residency, it is within reason for Mexico to retaliate by expelling me.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:06 PM on February 7
Yeah, I’m not particularly concerned with the people I know, or even the people I don’t know, taking things out on me. However, as you are pointing out the actions of individuals can vary greatly from the actions of governments. If the US starts expelling Mexican citizens with American residency, it is within reason for Mexico to retaliate by expelling me.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:06 PM on February 7
Tell Me No Lies, if you've been here for a while, consider getting your citizenship ASAP? It's not that hard, if you've been here long enough, if you have a decent immigration lawyer, you mostly just need to take the test, which is also not super hard. I was going to do it pre-pandemic, but then everything went fucky, and I haven't gotten around to doing it again. But I'd recommend it if you're serious about staying anyway.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:19 PM on February 7 [1 favorite]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:19 PM on February 7 [1 favorite]
Farther afield, both Portugal and Spain are options. Both have digital nomad and retirement visas, though they’re currently swamped with applications
...so, just to be clear, AIMA (on the Portuguese side) is utterly, utterly swamped. Things that were supposed to take 8 months have gone past 4 years. Keep that in mind.
Another point, Brazilian is the main variant of the Portuguese language available to learn in the US -- and it's not the same as European Portuguese. They're mutually intelligible (mostly) but pronunciation varies by quite a lot, and you should definitely be very careful about trying to learn via Brazilian apps (eg: Duolingo is Brazilian Portuguese, not European).
...there has been some grumpiness about wealthy Californians coming in and buying all of the houses (because, um, they literally have. Based on insider info [sorry] there's above 14K Californians buying places in southern Portugal over the last 3 years (similar climate), and the Californians are all able to drop 1M on buying an entire apartment block without blinking in order to make a nice mansion.
...but one advantage of Portugal that's not often talked about is simply this: they have the Azores and Madeira.
If you want to just get away from everything, you could do worse than a grouping of mostly-self-sufficient islands that are in the middle of the Atlantic. Also, they have great tangy cheese!
Like, seriously, I fucking love their cheese (lots of Azoreans where I live in the US).
Madeira is nice too, with an utterly lovely climate and cool-ass levadas, but their cheese is not as nice (IMO). Also, lots of diesel vehicles, alas.
posted by aramaic at 5:48 PM on February 7 [3 favorites]
...so, just to be clear, AIMA (on the Portuguese side) is utterly, utterly swamped. Things that were supposed to take 8 months have gone past 4 years. Keep that in mind.
Another point, Brazilian is the main variant of the Portuguese language available to learn in the US -- and it's not the same as European Portuguese. They're mutually intelligible (mostly) but pronunciation varies by quite a lot, and you should definitely be very careful about trying to learn via Brazilian apps (eg: Duolingo is Brazilian Portuguese, not European).
...there has been some grumpiness about wealthy Californians coming in and buying all of the houses (because, um, they literally have. Based on insider info [sorry] there's above 14K Californians buying places in southern Portugal over the last 3 years (similar climate), and the Californians are all able to drop 1M on buying an entire apartment block without blinking in order to make a nice mansion.
...but one advantage of Portugal that's not often talked about is simply this: they have the Azores and Madeira.
If you want to just get away from everything, you could do worse than a grouping of mostly-self-sufficient islands that are in the middle of the Atlantic. Also, they have great tangy cheese!
Like, seriously, I fucking love their cheese (lots of Azoreans where I live in the US).
Madeira is nice too, with an utterly lovely climate and cool-ass levadas, but their cheese is not as nice (IMO). Also, lots of diesel vehicles, alas.
posted by aramaic at 5:48 PM on February 7 [3 favorites]
I’m a US citizen. I came to Ireland to do a one-year masters degree then rolled over to a Critical Skills work permit. I’m getting my citizenship next week. Happy to answer questions.
If you have experience in a job on the critical skills occupation list, you might consider applying for sponsored roles in Ireland. I’m in IT and work with many people on Critical Skills. After two years on Critical Skills, you’ll get a Stamp 4 and won’t require a work permit. After five years of reckonable residence (studies don’t count!), you can apply for naturalisation.
If you are a researcher, you might also consider looking for opportunities at institutions that can bring you in on a Hosting Agreement.
After the masters, I could have worked for two years without sponsorship (Stamp 1G). This is called the “Third Level Graduate Programme”, if you want to learn more. A masters or PhD in Ireland is a common foot in the door.
Note that we are in a serious housing crisis. I have known people from the US who have turned down very good job offers or gone back quickly due to lack of housing. Also people who have struggled to find a GP, find a crèche or school place for kids, transfer their drivers license, etc.
The softest landing is to get a transfer from the US to Ireland in a multinational where you’re already established. If your company has that sort of pipeline, they often have the connections to help get things done. And of course, if you’ve been through it yourself, you try to look out for new arrivals. Thanksgiving invites, “hey I know someone moving out of their flat”, “this is where you can buy overpriced ranch dressing”, how to not get screwed on your taxes, etc. :)
Working abroad - whether in Ireland or elsewhere with a favourable US tax treaty - might be an especially good move (for now) if you have US student loans eligible for an income-driven repayment plan.
Many Irish discussion channels are (understandably) flooded with US citizens asking about immigrating based on distant ancestry. As covered above: Irish ancestry is only relevant if it’s your parents or grandparents. Otherwise, Ireland will court your tourist dollars, but not your residence. (Unless you are very, very wealthy.)
Ireland is a diverse country with a leading knowledge economy, so most paths relevant to US citizens are focussed on bolstering skilled labour.
posted by rhubarb at 4:19 AM on February 8 [3 favorites]
If you have experience in a job on the critical skills occupation list, you might consider applying for sponsored roles in Ireland. I’m in IT and work with many people on Critical Skills. After two years on Critical Skills, you’ll get a Stamp 4 and won’t require a work permit. After five years of reckonable residence (studies don’t count!), you can apply for naturalisation.
If you are a researcher, you might also consider looking for opportunities at institutions that can bring you in on a Hosting Agreement.
After the masters, I could have worked for two years without sponsorship (Stamp 1G). This is called the “Third Level Graduate Programme”, if you want to learn more. A masters or PhD in Ireland is a common foot in the door.
Note that we are in a serious housing crisis. I have known people from the US who have turned down very good job offers or gone back quickly due to lack of housing. Also people who have struggled to find a GP, find a crèche or school place for kids, transfer their drivers license, etc.
The softest landing is to get a transfer from the US to Ireland in a multinational where you’re already established. If your company has that sort of pipeline, they often have the connections to help get things done. And of course, if you’ve been through it yourself, you try to look out for new arrivals. Thanksgiving invites, “hey I know someone moving out of their flat”, “this is where you can buy overpriced ranch dressing”, how to not get screwed on your taxes, etc. :)
Working abroad - whether in Ireland or elsewhere with a favourable US tax treaty - might be an especially good move (for now) if you have US student loans eligible for an income-driven repayment plan.
Many Irish discussion channels are (understandably) flooded with US citizens asking about immigrating based on distant ancestry. As covered above: Irish ancestry is only relevant if it’s your parents or grandparents. Otherwise, Ireland will court your tourist dollars, but not your residence. (Unless you are very, very wealthy.)
Ireland is a diverse country with a leading knowledge economy, so most paths relevant to US citizens are focussed on bolstering skilled labour.
posted by rhubarb at 4:19 AM on February 8 [3 favorites]
Tell Me No Lies, if you've been here for a while, consider getting your citizenship ASAP? It's not that hard, if you've been here long enough, if you have a decent immigration lawyer, you mostly just need to take the test, which is also not super hard
It’s been on the list for a while, but my Spanish language skills aren’t up to the interview and developing them is going much much slower than I had hoped. The second I think I can do the verbal I will be on the phone with the immigration lawyer my friends have used.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:22 AM on February 8 [1 favorite]
It’s been on the list for a while, but my Spanish language skills aren’t up to the interview and developing them is going much much slower than I had hoped. The second I think I can do the verbal I will be on the phone with the immigration lawyer my friends have used.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:22 AM on February 8 [1 favorite]
It's actually a little ironic, because in my early years with Comrade Doll (the rarely seen Mefite to whom I am married), people would "hilariously" joke that she was marrying me to get US citizenship. She did, in fact, eventually become a US citizen. But now we're looking at spending at least a few years in Romania so that I can, as her spouse, also get a Romanian/EU passport. Full circle, I guess.
Now that we've been together twenty years, the "in it for the papers" jokes are long gone, though.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:05 AM on February 8 [4 favorites]
Now that we've been together twenty years, the "in it for the papers" jokes are long gone, though.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:05 AM on February 8 [4 favorites]
If you are moving internationally and want to still deal with Roth IRAs and mutual funds then be prepared to have an American address. DO NOT ever tell your broker or bank you are living in another country, this causes mayhem. Another issue is two factor authentication that REQUIRES a US number. I just found out that just having someone have account authorization, with an international address, disallows you from dealing with your mutual fund trades like going to a high cash position.
Use a VPN, get an American address, correspondence is electronic, be sure your finance apps do not use a USA phone number to login as part of 2 part authentication, get credit cards with no international fees, and absolutely do not bail until you get your financial processes sorted.
If you are contemplating Australia, I cannot emphasize enough about getting an immigration agent. The forms are simple (its a trap) but seriously, dealing with Australian immigration is no fun. DM for a referral to the immigration agent/attorney that got my family, which included an autistic child permanent residency and citizenship. He understands the process and is highly effective.
posted by jadepearl at 8:07 PM on February 11 [4 favorites]
Use a VPN, get an American address, correspondence is electronic, be sure your finance apps do not use a USA phone number to login as part of 2 part authentication, get credit cards with no international fees, and absolutely do not bail until you get your financial processes sorted.
If you are contemplating Australia, I cannot emphasize enough about getting an immigration agent. The forms are simple (its a trap) but seriously, dealing with Australian immigration is no fun. DM for a referral to the immigration agent/attorney that got my family, which included an autistic child permanent residency and citizenship. He understands the process and is highly effective.
posted by jadepearl at 8:07 PM on February 11 [4 favorites]
I am a migrant to Australia, having come here as an international student originally, and some of what dg is saying is a bit off.
- There's no age limit for a student visa (unless you're going to high school, and even then that's an age minimum). If you can get a local school or university to accept you, you should be good. What does have an age limit is the Temporary Graduate visa which lets you stay in Australia for a while after you graduate - it's 35 and under but "exceptions apply". Also, as an international students, your fees are generally about 4x the domestic rate and you do not (for the most part) qualify for scholarships, grants, or loans.
- You do not get immediate access to universal healthcare. dg did mention international students having to get Overseas Student Healthcare, a type of private health insurance which covers what Medicare covers (so you can have things like subsidised psychologist visits for example) but you just have to pay for it. When you apply for a more long-term visa, including permanent residency, you get put on a bridging visa that lets you stay in Australia while your visa is being processed. Different bridging visas have different benefits, one of which is access to Medicare. However, this is not guaranteed. So if you're hoping to move for healthcare reasons, be warned that you more than likely have to pay full fee still.
- You will get considered to be an "Australian resident for tax purposes" if you're anything other than a tourist. So you still have to file taxes (even if you don't earn enough to go past the tax-free threshold, which would be likely if you tried to work as an international student because nobody is gonna cater to your work hour limit, as I found). However, you will most likely not be able to access Government benefits until you hit a threshold - for Centrelink (social security/welfare, but also concession cards that allow cheaper pricing for things even if you're not getting a cent of Gov money), at one point it was that you had to been living onsite in Australia as a permanent resident (none of your time on other visas count) for at least 4 years before you could even apply, then they took the 4 year requirement out during lockdown, but I think it's back in. Government grants (which power 99.99% of the arts and non-profit sector) and too many jobs are also off-limits to you if you're not a permanent resident. So if you're hoping to access Government support, you're gonna have to wait years upon years.
- Australia gets pretty expensive and food prices are higher - both groceries and pre-made food have gotten much pricier in the past year
- The information about skill shortages is generally correct, but bear in mind that what they consider "skilled occupations" changes like the wind. I snuck in as a "journalist" (the closest thing they could fit with my Creative Industries degree - they don't care about work experience) and then half a year later everything under the creative industries got removed, so a Norwegian friend who graduated from a product design course a semester after I did had to resort to a partner visa to stay.
Some other things:
- I was being treated for mental health conditions during different stages of my Australian migration process and had to supply a letter from a psychiatrist basically saying that I was pretty stable. It didn't prove to be much of a problem, but I can't say the same for every visa
- I got my autism diagnosis a little after I applied for citizenship - the citizenship process doesn't ask for health checks, so it didn't really matter. There's no Government/Medicare support for autistic adults, the concerns with deportation over autism has been generally about autistic children who do get some Medicare support - you then run into the "being a burden on the healthcare system" issue (even though you are technically paying for everyone else's healthcare since you can't access a lot of Gov benefits, but I digress)
- If you are looking for a visa that involves someone Australian sponsoring you, such as a parent visa or partner visa, the Australian sponsor has to fulfil an Assurance of Support - basically proving to Centrelink that you have enough money to support the visa holder. They look at your tax return only, and a tax return from a year or two before you get the notification to send in the Aussurance application to boot, and if you are even a cent less, they will automatically reject you. I went through this hell with a parent visa that I sponsored my parents for 7-8 years ago and then got the notification to proceed the literal day my dad died, with a stupidly tight deadline. I had just gotten laid off from my first stable job in yonks, after a couple of years marred by being too sick with multiple bouts of COVID to earn much on my freelance career as well as having to drop a lot of things to take care of my dying father, but none of that mattered to Centrelink. Even writing to my local representatives, with all their effort, didn't help. I ended up withdrawing my mother's application because rejection would have made it too risky for her to come to Australia at all, and at least with a withdrawal she could still come here on a tourist visa.
Stuff that isn't Australia specific:
-If you're planning on a long-term visa, or you have a "green passport"/developing country passport and just want to get anywhere even as a tourist, here are some lists you should keep now:
1. Every international trip in the last 10 years minimum - dates, city/country, purpose. If you're like me and have moved around countries a fair bit, I would say that you wouldn't have to include time in your original "home" country.
2. Every time you've entered your intended destination country ever - the Australian citizenship application asked for the first time I'd ever come to Australia and my dad had to dig up an old passport from childhood to get the date
3. Every address you've ever lived in in the last 10 years minimum
4. Every job you've had in the last 10 years minimum - this isn't a resume, you don't have to go into great detail. Dates, company, job role, if you have contact info that'd be great
5. If you are an academic - every publication you've ever had
6. Contact info for every family member and close friend you have in your intended destination country. Especially make a note of whether they're a citizen or not
7. Contact details (including birth & death dates) for immediate family - parents, siblings, partners. If you are applying for a family sponsored visa, you will most likely need a family tree of how you're connected to this family member. My PR was via my aunt, who was technically my dad's half sister, so I had to include a tree with all of their 12 siblings plus every parent and step parent involved.
- At some point you will also be asked for a combination of bank statements, health documentation, and police checks (this will include police checks for anywhere you've lived in for at least a year, even if you were there only temporarily, and for Americans they will want both the FBI and your state police check). However, they will want versions of those that are as recent as possible to the date of their request, so it's not worth getting them ahead of time. That being said, do your own research on how to get those documents because the information that your target country has may be out of date - Australia wanted me to break California law to prove that I've never broken California law!
- If you are on any sort of ADHD med, such as Ritalin: certain types of ADHD meds are either banned outright or heavily controlled. Check with your target country before proceeding. Good practice to do this for any of your meds in general, but ADHD meds in particular tend to be especially under scrutiny from drug-averse countries like Singapore because they seem too close to meth.
- Possession of cannabis can lead to jail or even a death sentence in certain countries. So if you're reliant on medical marijuana, check very carefully before moving.
posted by creatrixtiara at 8:50 PM on February 11 [3 favorites]
- There's no age limit for a student visa (unless you're going to high school, and even then that's an age minimum). If you can get a local school or university to accept you, you should be good. What does have an age limit is the Temporary Graduate visa which lets you stay in Australia for a while after you graduate - it's 35 and under but "exceptions apply". Also, as an international students, your fees are generally about 4x the domestic rate and you do not (for the most part) qualify for scholarships, grants, or loans.
- You do not get immediate access to universal healthcare. dg did mention international students having to get Overseas Student Healthcare, a type of private health insurance which covers what Medicare covers (so you can have things like subsidised psychologist visits for example) but you just have to pay for it. When you apply for a more long-term visa, including permanent residency, you get put on a bridging visa that lets you stay in Australia while your visa is being processed. Different bridging visas have different benefits, one of which is access to Medicare. However, this is not guaranteed. So if you're hoping to move for healthcare reasons, be warned that you more than likely have to pay full fee still.
- You will get considered to be an "Australian resident for tax purposes" if you're anything other than a tourist. So you still have to file taxes (even if you don't earn enough to go past the tax-free threshold, which would be likely if you tried to work as an international student because nobody is gonna cater to your work hour limit, as I found). However, you will most likely not be able to access Government benefits until you hit a threshold - for Centrelink (social security/welfare, but also concession cards that allow cheaper pricing for things even if you're not getting a cent of Gov money), at one point it was that you had to been living onsite in Australia as a permanent resident (none of your time on other visas count) for at least 4 years before you could even apply, then they took the 4 year requirement out during lockdown, but I think it's back in. Government grants (which power 99.99% of the arts and non-profit sector) and too many jobs are also off-limits to you if you're not a permanent resident. So if you're hoping to access Government support, you're gonna have to wait years upon years.
- Australia gets pretty expensive and food prices are higher - both groceries and pre-made food have gotten much pricier in the past year
- The information about skill shortages is generally correct, but bear in mind that what they consider "skilled occupations" changes like the wind. I snuck in as a "journalist" (the closest thing they could fit with my Creative Industries degree - they don't care about work experience) and then half a year later everything under the creative industries got removed, so a Norwegian friend who graduated from a product design course a semester after I did had to resort to a partner visa to stay.
Some other things:
- I was being treated for mental health conditions during different stages of my Australian migration process and had to supply a letter from a psychiatrist basically saying that I was pretty stable. It didn't prove to be much of a problem, but I can't say the same for every visa
- I got my autism diagnosis a little after I applied for citizenship - the citizenship process doesn't ask for health checks, so it didn't really matter. There's no Government/Medicare support for autistic adults, the concerns with deportation over autism has been generally about autistic children who do get some Medicare support - you then run into the "being a burden on the healthcare system" issue (even though you are technically paying for everyone else's healthcare since you can't access a lot of Gov benefits, but I digress)
- If you are looking for a visa that involves someone Australian sponsoring you, such as a parent visa or partner visa, the Australian sponsor has to fulfil an Assurance of Support - basically proving to Centrelink that you have enough money to support the visa holder. They look at your tax return only, and a tax return from a year or two before you get the notification to send in the Aussurance application to boot, and if you are even a cent less, they will automatically reject you. I went through this hell with a parent visa that I sponsored my parents for 7-8 years ago and then got the notification to proceed the literal day my dad died, with a stupidly tight deadline. I had just gotten laid off from my first stable job in yonks, after a couple of years marred by being too sick with multiple bouts of COVID to earn much on my freelance career as well as having to drop a lot of things to take care of my dying father, but none of that mattered to Centrelink. Even writing to my local representatives, with all their effort, didn't help. I ended up withdrawing my mother's application because rejection would have made it too risky for her to come to Australia at all, and at least with a withdrawal she could still come here on a tourist visa.
Stuff that isn't Australia specific:
-If you're planning on a long-term visa, or you have a "green passport"/developing country passport and just want to get anywhere even as a tourist, here are some lists you should keep now:
1. Every international trip in the last 10 years minimum - dates, city/country, purpose. If you're like me and have moved around countries a fair bit, I would say that you wouldn't have to include time in your original "home" country.
2. Every time you've entered your intended destination country ever - the Australian citizenship application asked for the first time I'd ever come to Australia and my dad had to dig up an old passport from childhood to get the date
3. Every address you've ever lived in in the last 10 years minimum
4. Every job you've had in the last 10 years minimum - this isn't a resume, you don't have to go into great detail. Dates, company, job role, if you have contact info that'd be great
5. If you are an academic - every publication you've ever had
6. Contact info for every family member and close friend you have in your intended destination country. Especially make a note of whether they're a citizen or not
7. Contact details (including birth & death dates) for immediate family - parents, siblings, partners. If you are applying for a family sponsored visa, you will most likely need a family tree of how you're connected to this family member. My PR was via my aunt, who was technically my dad's half sister, so I had to include a tree with all of their 12 siblings plus every parent and step parent involved.
- At some point you will also be asked for a combination of bank statements, health documentation, and police checks (this will include police checks for anywhere you've lived in for at least a year, even if you were there only temporarily, and for Americans they will want both the FBI and your state police check). However, they will want versions of those that are as recent as possible to the date of their request, so it's not worth getting them ahead of time. That being said, do your own research on how to get those documents because the information that your target country has may be out of date - Australia wanted me to break California law to prove that I've never broken California law!
- If you are on any sort of ADHD med, such as Ritalin: certain types of ADHD meds are either banned outright or heavily controlled. Check with your target country before proceeding. Good practice to do this for any of your meds in general, but ADHD meds in particular tend to be especially under scrutiny from drug-averse countries like Singapore because they seem too close to meth.
- Possession of cannabis can lead to jail or even a death sentence in certain countries. So if you're reliant on medical marijuana, check very carefully before moving.
posted by creatrixtiara at 8:50 PM on February 11 [3 favorites]
Just to clarify this with regard to Australia:
There's no age limit for a student visa
Technically correct, but the reality is anyone over 45 is extremely unlikely to get a student visa and anyone over 35 would have difficulty. This is nothing to do with official or published limits, but significant lived experience. There's a good reason why the institution I work for doesn't accept offshore applications for overseas students from anyone over 35.
posted by dg at 9:40 PM on February 11
There's no age limit for a student visa
Technically correct, but the reality is anyone over 45 is extremely unlikely to get a student visa and anyone over 35 would have difficulty. This is nothing to do with official or published limits, but significant lived experience. There's a good reason why the institution I work for doesn't accept offshore applications for overseas students from anyone over 35.
posted by dg at 9:40 PM on February 11
You do not get immediate access to universal healthcare. dg did mention international students having to get Overseas Student Healthcare, a type of private health insurance which covers what Medicare covers (so you can have things like subsidised psychologist visits for example) but you just have to pay for it.
This also applies to Canada. My Canadian spouse had work insurance that covered any medical stuff, but I did not access universal healthcare in full until they approved my Permanent Residency. This is part of why immigrating is so expensive. You have to pay out of pocket for a lot of stuff until you are approved. I can't speak for other countries, but Canada is more expensive in quite a bit than the US. You get used to it.
posted by Kitteh at 3:55 AM on February 12
This also applies to Canada. My Canadian spouse had work insurance that covered any medical stuff, but I did not access universal healthcare in full until they approved my Permanent Residency. This is part of why immigrating is so expensive. You have to pay out of pocket for a lot of stuff until you are approved. I can't speak for other countries, but Canada is more expensive in quite a bit than the US. You get used to it.
posted by Kitteh at 3:55 AM on February 12
The autism diagnosis is a big point to consider, given how many folks here tilt that way.
I had been putting off getting a formal diagnosis (although, just as a starting point "makes 250+ movie posts on FF a year" gives you an idea) but now that I know that can be used as a disqualifying factor in getting a visa/residency/citizenship elsewhere, I figure I'll just be skipping that. Even my shrink thought that was a formality. ("It's pretty clear.")
But hey, maybe I'm not autistic after all! Maybe I'm just some regular person who doesn't like eye contact, dislikes social interactions, has trouble with social cues, is disturbed by changes in routine, has weird enthusiasms they talk about all the time, has face blindness, repeats words and phrases...
Anyway, it's not like there's a pill they can give me to cure it that I'm foregoing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:14 AM on February 12 [2 favorites]
I had been putting off getting a formal diagnosis (although, just as a starting point "makes 250+ movie posts on FF a year" gives you an idea) but now that I know that can be used as a disqualifying factor in getting a visa/residency/citizenship elsewhere, I figure I'll just be skipping that. Even my shrink thought that was a formality. ("It's pretty clear.")
But hey, maybe I'm not autistic after all! Maybe I'm just some regular person who doesn't like eye contact, dislikes social interactions, has trouble with social cues, is disturbed by changes in routine, has weird enthusiasms they talk about all the time, has face blindness, repeats words and phrases...
Anyway, it's not like there's a pill they can give me to cure it that I'm foregoing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:14 AM on February 12 [2 favorites]
On the subject of banking, I previously failed to include some additional remarks:
- as noted above, many US banks freak out at non-US addresses, and in fact there are several banks which will instantly close your accounts if they believe you've moved permanently abroad. One way around this is to use a mail forwarder; there are companies which will host your US mailing address and then forward anything they receive to you (usually electronically, followed by shredding, but you can pay to have them forward things physically). These services are often used by RV'ers, yacht people, and the like.
- before you leave the US, you may want to establish legal residency in South Dakota. This is fairly straightforward, and once again there are companies that will help you do so, complete with SD driving license. This will allow you to avoid state income taxes in future (several states are quite ... grabby ... when it comes to your income tax filing, and make it very difficult to prove you don't still secretly live in the state unless you have an address and DL from another US state. No, I am not kidding.)
- if you move to abroad and establish legal residency, be aware that you will not be allowed to invest in a number of US securities (like mutual funds) due to mismatches between US and local laws. Broadly speaking you can still own funds you've already got, but you're not allowed to buy more, and I do not personally know if you're even technically allowed to automatically reinvest profits. There are, of course, a variety of ways around this, just be aware it's an issue.
- there are major US banks which have divisions that cater to wealthy expats, so if you have enough money you'll want to look into those. They do things like "direct indexing" to avoid the various legal traps. JPM and ML are two of the big ones, but there's also smaller ones like the SDFCU (note, you probably can't just directly join the SDFCU but there are ways around that as well, without breaking any laws).
If you are prepared to sell all your investments and move funds to a foreign bank, then none of the foregoing really matters -- but it can matter a hell of a lot if you have a 401K, retirement accounts, and so on. You may want to retain a fee-based financial advisor to help you plan for all this stuff (eg: be aware that many foreign countries tax your retirement account income because they treat it as plain income, even though it may have been previously taxed by the US, despite totalization agreements.) I know people who've resorted to fairly insane workarounds that I'm not entirely sure are legal to avoid some of these traps, so I think it would be better to address them up-front with a variety of legal strategies (eg: setting up complex trusts) rather than cobble together something after the fact.
posted by aramaic at 10:16 AM on February 12 [3 favorites]
- as noted above, many US banks freak out at non-US addresses, and in fact there are several banks which will instantly close your accounts if they believe you've moved permanently abroad. One way around this is to use a mail forwarder; there are companies which will host your US mailing address and then forward anything they receive to you (usually electronically, followed by shredding, but you can pay to have them forward things physically). These services are often used by RV'ers, yacht people, and the like.
- before you leave the US, you may want to establish legal residency in South Dakota. This is fairly straightforward, and once again there are companies that will help you do so, complete with SD driving license. This will allow you to avoid state income taxes in future (several states are quite ... grabby ... when it comes to your income tax filing, and make it very difficult to prove you don't still secretly live in the state unless you have an address and DL from another US state. No, I am not kidding.)
- if you move to abroad and establish legal residency, be aware that you will not be allowed to invest in a number of US securities (like mutual funds) due to mismatches between US and local laws. Broadly speaking you can still own funds you've already got, but you're not allowed to buy more, and I do not personally know if you're even technically allowed to automatically reinvest profits. There are, of course, a variety of ways around this, just be aware it's an issue.
- there are major US banks which have divisions that cater to wealthy expats, so if you have enough money you'll want to look into those. They do things like "direct indexing" to avoid the various legal traps. JPM and ML are two of the big ones, but there's also smaller ones like the SDFCU (note, you probably can't just directly join the SDFCU but there are ways around that as well, without breaking any laws).
If you are prepared to sell all your investments and move funds to a foreign bank, then none of the foregoing really matters -- but it can matter a hell of a lot if you have a 401K, retirement accounts, and so on. You may want to retain a fee-based financial advisor to help you plan for all this stuff (eg: be aware that many foreign countries tax your retirement account income because they treat it as plain income, even though it may have been previously taxed by the US, despite totalization agreements.) I know people who've resorted to fairly insane workarounds that I'm not entirely sure are legal to avoid some of these traps, so I think it would be better to address them up-front with a variety of legal strategies (eg: setting up complex trusts) rather than cobble together something after the fact.
posted by aramaic at 10:16 AM on February 12 [3 favorites]
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posted by PussKillian at 1:59 PM on February 3 [1 favorite]