Moderation and MeFiMail January 30, 2025 9:43 PM Subscribe
Hi all. Community member y2karl has made an accusation about the moderators ability to read MeFiMail. This is absolutely not true and I have no idea how he could come to such a conclusion. Moderators are unable to read members MeFIMail.
I’ve linked to karl’s comment and created this new thread to discuss these accusations. But be aware that it’s the middle of the night for most of the staff, so there won’t be much response. The interim Board and other staff moderators have been notified, so please be patient.
The thread where y2Karl posted this comment has been temporarily closed to prevent derails in that thread. It should be opened in a few hours or in the am when it’s clear that the derail has been shifted to this thread.
The thread where y2Karl posted this comment has been temporarily closed to prevent derails in that thread. It should be opened in a few hours or in the am when it’s clear that the derail has been shifted to this thread.
If we get a complaint about, say, an abusive / threatening mail being sent, we can ask frimble to go under the hood and look at the database and find it. (and I don't mean, "your opinion is bad, and you are a bad person for having it" though please don't send those sorts of mails either). I mean when something is bad enough that it's possibly a harassment / security / stalker issue, we'll ask frimble to have a look. We don't ask for a verbatim unless they say, yes this is super bad. Otherwise they just give us an idea of the content, and we can either warn the mailer, or ask the receiver to just block the mailer.
posted by taz (staff) at 10:08 PM on January 30 [4 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 10:08 PM on January 30 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I've never heard of mods reading private MeMails between users, and couldn't find any reference to that on search. I'd be surprised if it was impossible, since it might be needed to verify if someone is sending spam, abusive messages, etc. But even then I'd expect it to be extremely rare. (And the specific accusation of spying on and intercepting MeMails as they're being written sounds kind of fantastical tbh).
FYI, a couple years ago I ran into some issues with Gmail marking MeMail notifications as spam, including the optional copy you get when using the site contact form. Could be a weird backend issue like that preventing some messages from being delivered properly?
posted by Rhaomi at 10:10 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
FYI, a couple years ago I ran into some issues with Gmail marking MeMail notifications as spam, including the optional copy you get when using the site contact form. Could be a weird backend issue like that preventing some messages from being delivered properly?
posted by Rhaomi at 10:10 PM on January 30 [1 favorite]
I think that could happen with regard to forwarding mefi mail to one's personal email account, but it would still be on their Metafilter profile mail. Some people turn off their mail, so in that instance they would not receive mefi mail sent to them. (I think the sender prob gets a note that the member has turned off / blocked mail).
posted by taz (staff) at 10:15 PM on January 30
posted by taz (staff) at 10:15 PM on January 30
Those comments are really weird and I'm now worried about them...
posted by Pyrogenesis at 10:22 PM on January 30 [7 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 10:22 PM on January 30 [7 favorites]
The "mods can see memails as they are being typed" thing is troubling; I am the least tech person in the world, but until a message is sent, it exists only in the user's browser, correct? Even if it was possible, how would a mod know User X was writing something right that second so they could watch them compose a message in real time? It's very disquieting.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:42 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:42 PM on January 30 [6 favorites]
Mods cannot see comments as they are being typed. We cannot see comments unless they are posted. I cannot even find my own partially-written comments half the time when I have a lot of windows open and hopelessly lose track of the page I was on, then have to go back and restart what I was writing. The only exception would be that sometimes if I am writing something and my computer crashes and I restore the page, what I was in the middle of writing might still be there. That's me, as a user. As a mod I definitely, absolutely do not see what anyone is writing before they post it, nor do I want to.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:57 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:57 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
Does MeMail block messages containing text in the unacceptable words list? That might explain messages disappearing.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:03 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:03 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
We'll need to ask frimble, but I would imagine so. We'll update on that.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:19 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
posted by taz (staff) at 1:19 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
Responding to a single user's technologically implausible accusation with an entire post that centers that specific user (who may well be having mental health issues given that their claim seems far-fetched and out of character) is perhaps a really bad choice.
posted by knucklebones at 1:58 AM on January 31 [34 favorites]
posted by knucklebones at 1:58 AM on January 31 [34 favorites]
Is anyone willing to volunteer to (possibly) receive a memail full of slurs? I want to see if it warns you, sends it through, or silently deletes it.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:59 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:59 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
I'd love to receive that memail.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 2:34 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
posted by Mr. Yuck at 2:34 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
Sent! No warnings on either preview or send, shows in my Sent mail.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:37 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:37 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
It came through just fine.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 2:37 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
posted by Mr. Yuck at 2:37 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
OK, so much for that theory. Thanks!
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:37 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:37 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Responding to a single user's technologically implausible accusation with an entire post that centers that specific user (who may well be having mental health issues given that their claim seems far-fetched and out of character) is perhaps a really bad choice.
QFT.
Brandon, this MeTa was a terrible idea. You do not need to come running to this forum to point accusatory links to a troubled and possibly mentally unwell user in order to pre-emptively defend yourself. I'm honestly pretty disgusted that you seem to think it's more important to clear the name of the mod team than to address this in a compassionate and responsible way. Did you even bother contacting the user to discuss it? A simple "the moderators don't have that power" in that thread would have been fine. This reaction is totally over the top.
posted by fight or flight at 4:47 AM on January 31 [37 favorites]
QFT.
Brandon, this MeTa was a terrible idea. You do not need to come running to this forum to point accusatory links to a troubled and possibly mentally unwell user in order to pre-emptively defend yourself. I'm honestly pretty disgusted that you seem to think it's more important to clear the name of the mod team than to address this in a compassionate and responsible way. Did you even bother contacting the user to discuss it? A simple "the moderators don't have that power" in that thread would have been fine. This reaction is totally over the top.
posted by fight or flight at 4:47 AM on January 31 [37 favorites]
A simple "the moderators don't have that power" in that thread would have been fine.
Where have we seen that before?
posted by phunniemee at 4:57 AM on January 31 [10 favorites]
Where have we seen that before?
posted by phunniemee at 4:57 AM on January 31 [10 favorites]
Responding to a single user's technologically implausible accusation with an entire post that centers that specific user (who may well be having mental health issues given that their claim seems far-fetched and out of character) is perhaps a really bad choice.
I agree. I understand the impulse to start a public conversation as the accusation was made publicly, but saying that "Brandon Blatcher can read the MeMails of problem users such as me as they are being written and delete them and prevent them from being sent or seen" is concerning and not because I think the mods are watching anyone type. It would have been kinder to keep it to that thread even though it's a derail.
Fwiw, I do think it is good to clarify the privacy level of memails. I've always assumed that mods could read them easily because back in the day, sending messages on janky old webforums run by one dude always had the risk that the one dude would be reading them. Why would messages on this janky old weblog be different?
posted by betweenthebars at 5:50 AM on January 31 [5 favorites]
I agree. I understand the impulse to start a public conversation as the accusation was made publicly, but saying that "Brandon Blatcher can read the MeMails of problem users such as me as they are being written and delete them and prevent them from being sent or seen" is concerning and not because I think the mods are watching anyone type. It would have been kinder to keep it to that thread even though it's a derail.
Fwiw, I do think it is good to clarify the privacy level of memails. I've always assumed that mods could read them easily because back in the day, sending messages on janky old webforums run by one dude always had the risk that the one dude would be reading them. Why would messages on this janky old weblog be different?
posted by betweenthebars at 5:50 AM on January 31 [5 favorites]
My $0.0002 – the comment was going to be a whole thing at the tail end of an already long thread so opening a new MeTa for it is understandable.
posted by Diskeater at 6:04 AM on January 31 [21 favorites]
posted by Diskeater at 6:04 AM on January 31 [21 favorites]
I agree this Meta is understandable. Several people clearly believed the claims and it was getting ugly. I'm pretty sure there would be many unhappy people no matter what Brandon chose to do in a difficult situation. Didn't we decide it's not appropriate to theorize about another user's mental health? Brandon managed to make this Meta without doing that.
posted by Glinn at 6:09 AM on January 31 [21 favorites]
posted by Glinn at 6:09 AM on January 31 [21 favorites]
Several people clearly believed the claims and it was getting ugly.
So it should be treated like any other derail. Explanation given, further comments on the subject hidden or deleted, request made for anyone concerned to contact the moderators for an explanation. Contentious, but better than putting a long time and valued user on the stand for public trial and discussion in the middle of the night, just because he dared to question a moderator.
This is clearly one of those moments where the site would have been better served by the moderator in question taking a moment to calm down and step away from his keyboard. The fact that this same exact thing has happened multiple times is not a good look.
posted by fight or flight at 6:14 AM on January 31 [5 favorites]
So it should be treated like any other derail. Explanation given, further comments on the subject hidden or deleted, request made for anyone concerned to contact the moderators for an explanation. Contentious, but better than putting a long time and valued user on the stand for public trial and discussion in the middle of the night, just because he dared to question a moderator.
This is clearly one of those moments where the site would have been better served by the moderator in question taking a moment to calm down and step away from his keyboard. The fact that this same exact thing has happened multiple times is not a good look.
posted by fight or flight at 6:14 AM on January 31 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I am kind of where phunniemee is, if I am reading her correctly. It most certainly did not cool things off last time to shrug it off.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:16 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:16 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
I understand Brandon’s impulse here. I would have wanted to do the same in his position. If it wasn’t the best call to be made in a difficult situation, I make allowances.
As for the accusation itself: I am skeptical on motive. I am more skeptical on means. And I am even more skeptical on opportunity.
posted by Lemkin at 6:22 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
As for the accusation itself: I am skeptical on motive. I am more skeptical on means. And I am even more skeptical on opportunity.
posted by Lemkin at 6:22 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
Regarding the accusations, I've run a once kinda busy, now-diminished online forum for years and am no expert, but I have some thoughts.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:22 AM on January 31 [13 favorites]
- Mods reading private messages - MeFi being custom-built, I can't dismiss this out of hand. But even the off-the-shelf stuff I use has encrypted messages in the database for years. I'd have to dig the hashed stuff form the db and decrypt, and I'm not sure I know how. Unless Brandon has a coding or development background of which I am unaware, it would be, I believe, entirely beyond his means.
- Reading messages as they are being written - MeFi uses a fairly standard model where web pages make entries into/requests from a database. Until the form data is submitted, nothing happens at all. The site is fundamentally incapable of doing this. In fact, I am not sure if any site on the internet has a method for collecting unsubmitted form data, short of just implementing flat-out surveillance.
- Prevent messages from being sent or seen - unusual and highly non-standard and would have to be implemented as a custom addition to the codebase. Substantial and complex feature additions to the codebase like this do not jibe with the general coding abilities/priorities of this site.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:22 AM on January 31 [13 favorites]
like any other derail
This is not a good characterization, I don't think. This was more than a run-of-the-mill derail.
the site would have been better served by the moderator in question taking a moment to calm down
So Brandon should have stepped away from the keyboard while people were accusing him and others of reading private memails as they are being written, and other people were joining in the outcry. This was the time you thought he should just walk away for a while?
I have to say again, no matter what he did, some people would be unhappy. Some people would be angry. Many people think they would have done something different/better/more appropriate.
Would it be possible, with all the absolute bullshit happening around the world right now, to give people the benefit of the doubt as much as we can? Any chance we can try that?
posted by Glinn at 6:28 AM on January 31 [27 favorites]
This is not a good characterization, I don't think. This was more than a run-of-the-mill derail.
the site would have been better served by the moderator in question taking a moment to calm down
So Brandon should have stepped away from the keyboard while people were accusing him and others of reading private memails as they are being written, and other people were joining in the outcry. This was the time you thought he should just walk away for a while?
I have to say again, no matter what he did, some people would be unhappy. Some people would be angry. Many people think they would have done something different/better/more appropriate.
Would it be possible, with all the absolute bullshit happening around the world right now, to give people the benefit of the doubt as much as we can? Any chance we can try that?
posted by Glinn at 6:28 AM on January 31 [27 favorites]
If it's okay to have my little Cassandra moment on here, this sort of unlikely situation/misunderstanding was why I proposed to replace the ominous passive voiced 'Your comment is currently being previewed' and rebuild it around the 'You' that is doing the previewing.
posted by Ashenmote at 6:31 AM on January 31 [10 favorites]
posted by Ashenmote at 6:31 AM on January 31 [10 favorites]
Would it be possible, with all the absolute bullshit happening around the world right now, to give people the benefit of the doubt as much as we can?
Where's the benefit of the doubt for the user being put on public display in a MetaTalk thread? Where's the compassion? Where's the "everyone needs a hug" moment?
Anyone with half a minute to think would understand that the core part of the accusation is completely impossible and the moderators would be correct to point that out.
This was the time you thought he should just walk away for a while?
Yes. As a moderator, it's his job to stay calm and professional. Are you suggesting that it would be a good thing for the site if moderators made it a habit to argue back when users get frustrated with them? Because we've had moderators like that and those days were pretty nasty on here.
posted by fight or flight at 6:42 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
Where's the benefit of the doubt for the user being put on public display in a MetaTalk thread? Where's the compassion? Where's the "everyone needs a hug" moment?
Anyone with half a minute to think would understand that the core part of the accusation is completely impossible and the moderators would be correct to point that out.
This was the time you thought he should just walk away for a while?
Yes. As a moderator, it's his job to stay calm and professional. Are you suggesting that it would be a good thing for the site if moderators made it a habit to argue back when users get frustrated with them? Because we've had moderators like that and those days were pretty nasty on here.
posted by fight or flight at 6:42 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
where phunniemee is, if I am reading her correctly
To be very clear, (in my opinion) the A User debacle metastasized as it did because of a moderator's (Brandon, specifically) inability/refusal to simply and clearly say "no, this is not a thing." And shut the derail down as soon as it started. It's what fight or flight suggested should have been done here instead, and I was referring back to another time where a failure to plainly state a position spawned a huge disaster that directly led to the loss of many quality mefites.
It's part of both the charm and ruin of Metafilter that no one here is apparently capable of making plain statements, requiring every misunderstanding to be filed in triplicate and reviewed by the armchair compliance team for absolute purity, but it is what it is. Now we've got a whole new spicy Metatalk to watch, and that should be interesting at least.
And because I simply must: queue for thee but not for meeee!
posted by phunniemee at 6:47 AM on January 31 [27 favorites]
To be very clear, (in my opinion) the A User debacle metastasized as it did because of a moderator's (Brandon, specifically) inability/refusal to simply and clearly say "no, this is not a thing." And shut the derail down as soon as it started. It's what fight or flight suggested should have been done here instead, and I was referring back to another time where a failure to plainly state a position spawned a huge disaster that directly led to the loss of many quality mefites.
It's part of both the charm and ruin of Metafilter that no one here is apparently capable of making plain statements, requiring every misunderstanding to be filed in triplicate and reviewed by the armchair compliance team for absolute purity, but it is what it is. Now we've got a whole new spicy Metatalk to watch, and that should be interesting at least.
And because I simply must: queue for thee but not for meeee!
posted by phunniemee at 6:47 AM on January 31 [27 favorites]
Anyone with half a minute to think would understand that the core part of the accusation is completely impossible
I do understand and appreciate what you are saying. That would have been a good outcome. But that is not what was happening. People were believing and chiming in, and I think it would have gotten worse if the thread was not closed. Of course we can disagree over whether that was the right choice. I just don't think there was a perfect way to go about this.
I don't really feel like the user is being attacked so much as, Brandon was trying to take his accusation seriously.
posted by Glinn at 7:09 AM on January 31 [7 favorites]
I do understand and appreciate what you are saying. That would have been a good outcome. But that is not what was happening. People were believing and chiming in, and I think it would have gotten worse if the thread was not closed. Of course we can disagree over whether that was the right choice. I just don't think there was a perfect way to go about this.
I don't really feel like the user is being attacked so much as, Brandon was trying to take his accusation seriously.
posted by Glinn at 7:09 AM on January 31 [7 favorites]
In fact, people in this thread are still wondering if it is true-
The "mods can see memails as they are being typed" thing is troubling.
What seems obvious to some, is not obvious to all.
posted by Glinn at 7:14 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
The "mods can see memails as they are being typed" thing is troubling.
What seems obvious to some, is not obvious to all.
posted by Glinn at 7:14 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry, but this comes off as completely unhinged. y2karl's claim itself about reading non-submitted text in a form is clearly very dubious, but on a community site random people will believe weird things, and to immediately close the thread and come here denouncing "accusations" is straight-up bizarre. It's so defensive and over-the-top that it actually makes me question whether there isn't something to y2karl's seemingly implausible claim after all.
posted by dusty potato at 7:43 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 7:43 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
For the record, sites can be programmed to grab user-form data before it’s submitted. (Schneier knows his shit.)
That anyone bothered to do this when programming MetaFilter is about 913 on my list of things to worry about today.
posted by Lemkin at 7:46 AM on January 31 [5 favorites]
That anyone bothered to do this when programming MetaFilter is about 913 on my list of things to worry about today.
posted by Lemkin at 7:46 AM on January 31 [5 favorites]
MetaTalk: random people will believe weird things.
posted by box at 7:53 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
posted by box at 7:53 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
sites can be programmed to grab user-form data before it’s submitted
It seems plausible to me that the advanced web sites could do that, sure.
That this site would be that advanced and that it would be devoting resources to this while other basic functions do not yet work entirely, is... less plausible to me.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:53 AM on January 31 [13 favorites]
It seems plausible to me that the advanced web sites could do that, sure.
That this site would be that advanced and that it would be devoting resources to this while other basic functions do not yet work entirely, is... less plausible to me.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:53 AM on January 31 [13 favorites]
I don't really feel like the user is being attacked so much as, Brandon was trying to take his accusation seriously.
But why even mention the user by name? Wouldn't it be possible to make a post addressing the issue without that? You could have posted to the original thread saying you were taking it to Meta, and even linked back if people were confused.
posted by BibiRose at 7:55 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
But why even mention the user by name? Wouldn't it be possible to make a post addressing the issue without that? You could have posted to the original thread saying you were taking it to Meta, and even linked back if people were confused.
posted by BibiRose at 7:55 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
gee I wonder if y2karl will stick around after being called out.
I don't think he even joined Metafilter. It was just built on the internet he was standing on.
posted by mullacc at 8:20 AM on January 31 [10 favorites]
I don't think he even joined Metafilter. It was just built on the internet he was standing on.
posted by mullacc at 8:20 AM on January 31 [10 favorites]
Fairly certain the Facebook webclient does as Schneier suggests. 99.9% of websites - almost certainly including Metafilter - do not.
I am fairly certain reading sent Mefi Mail is trivial. I have point-blank asked one of the older mod crew - in person - whether reading MeFi Mail was possible with a fairly basic SQL query and been told “oh, yeah, we can totally do that.”
(The context was “I am meeting a total stranger from Metafilter who asked me to dinner and they are particularly good at keeping all personal details hidden, please help the cops avenge my death if I get axe murdered,” FWIW)
posted by Ryvar at 8:21 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
I am fairly certain reading sent Mefi Mail is trivial. I have point-blank asked one of the older mod crew - in person - whether reading MeFi Mail was possible with a fairly basic SQL query and been told “oh, yeah, we can totally do that.”
(The context was “I am meeting a total stranger from Metafilter who asked me to dinner and they are particularly good at keeping all personal details hidden, please help the cops avenge my death if I get axe murdered,” FWIW)
posted by Ryvar at 8:21 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
In fact, people in this thread are still wondering if it is true
To be clear, I don't find the claims troubling and disquieting because I think they are correct.
I don't really feel like the user is being attacked so much as, Brandon was trying to take his accusation seriously.
Yeah, this is a darned if you do, damned if you don't.
It's not a drive-by accusation of pig-fucking made by some rando, it's a serious claim made by a long-time member and could have professional consequences for the mod beyond their work here on the site. Leaving it unaddressed in the other MeTa wouldn't have been constructive, and going radio silent while considering a response would be a bad look given previous issues with communication and transparency. This post did a good job of centering and addressing the concerns while being respectful of the member.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:45 AM on January 31 [17 favorites]
To be clear, I don't find the claims troubling and disquieting because I think they are correct.
I don't really feel like the user is being attacked so much as, Brandon was trying to take his accusation seriously.
Yeah, this is a darned if you do, damned if you don't.
It's not a drive-by accusation of pig-fucking made by some rando, it's a serious claim made by a long-time member and could have professional consequences for the mod beyond their work here on the site. Leaving it unaddressed in the other MeTa wouldn't have been constructive, and going radio silent while considering a response would be a bad look given previous issues with communication and transparency. This post did a good job of centering and addressing the concerns while being respectful of the member.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:45 AM on January 31 [17 favorites]
Quick followup to my previous comment: just to be clear, I don’t think any of the mod team has done this. I would not be at all surprised if the newer mods don’t know how to. I don’t think Brandon is lying when he says he can’t do this - but that’s a limitation of not having dug deep down into the underbelly rather than insufficient access rights. My knowledge of the site internals is shockingly limited for someone who has successfully penetration tested it on multiple occasions, but everything I’ve learned in the process of successfully crafting multiple SQL injection attacks on this site decades (plural!) ago suggested it would not be hard. And I’ve had that confirmed.
Separately: I don’t think y2karl is in a good place right now, and I don’t think they are intentionally lying, either. I believe they are also incorrect about what is technically feasible for the mods (the preview stuff). I love you all, you are all good people, and I hope you can get back to a place of assumed good faith, soon.
posted by Ryvar at 9:01 AM on January 31 [11 favorites]
Separately: I don’t think y2karl is in a good place right now, and I don’t think they are intentionally lying, either. I believe they are also incorrect about what is technically feasible for the mods (the preview stuff). I love you all, you are all good people, and I hope you can get back to a place of assumed good faith, soon.
posted by Ryvar at 9:01 AM on January 31 [11 favorites]
@Brandon — was the decision to close one MeTa in favor of the other made unilaterally or was it made after discussion with other mods? What condition/resolution are you waiting for in the new MeTa before the old one is reopened? #pleaseanswer
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:07 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:07 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
Just letting y'all know that although the moderation oversight committee plane is still at the gate, not even on the runway, we're discussing this conversation. Nothing we do will be fast I don't think (by design, so that we're not jumping in and rushing to things) but wanted to assure people about that.
Because this is of course the week I'm hiding in the bathroom just to breathe (all good work and personal things, but many work and personal things) it's slow and we're still working some communications stuff out like one person can't use Slack, I need to check in with people about whether they are cool with it, etc. Just being transparent about that here.
(Now y'all know I post from hiding in the bathroom from time to time. :))
posted by warriorqueen at 9:11 AM on January 31 [12 favorites]
Because this is of course the week I'm hiding in the bathroom just to breathe (all good work and personal things, but many work and personal things) it's slow and we're still working some communications stuff out like one person can't use Slack, I need to check in with people about whether they are cool with it, etc. Just being transparent about that here.
(Now y'all know I post from hiding in the bathroom from time to time. :))
posted by warriorqueen at 9:11 AM on January 31 [12 favorites]
People were believing and chiming in
In the three whole hours between the original comment and Brandon's response, there were two (2) additional comments about it, one of which could easily be read as a sarcastic joke rather than someone actually taking it seriously. Hardly an "the sky is falling, everyone needs to know about this immediately" emergency. That is, unless Brandon deleted a whole bunch of outrage before he posted a comment and then rushed to immediately post about it on MeTa as well.
posted by fight or flight at 9:14 AM on January 31 [7 favorites]
In the three whole hours between the original comment and Brandon's response, there were two (2) additional comments about it, one of which could easily be read as a sarcastic joke rather than someone actually taking it seriously. Hardly an "the sky is falling, everyone needs to know about this immediately" emergency. That is, unless Brandon deleted a whole bunch of outrage before he posted a comment and then rushed to immediately post about it on MeTa as well.
posted by fight or flight at 9:14 AM on January 31 [7 favorites]
Anyway, the temporarily closed, "just give me 10 minutes" thread is still closed. 12 hours later.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 9:16 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 9:16 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
(Now y'all know I post from hiding in the bathroom from time to time. :))
Hugs from a fellow MeFite also currently hiding in the bathroom. I can deal with writing shadercode this morning but I am not yet ready to discuss what I am doing or why with other primates. So: “migraine, in late” and emptying out the memory vault on MeTa.
Thank you for your work on the oversight committee, while I’m here. I wish that I was the kind of person that I trusted to be a force for good in that kind of role but I am not. I really hope it goes well for you all.
posted by Ryvar at 9:21 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Hugs from a fellow MeFite also currently hiding in the bathroom. I can deal with writing shadercode this morning but I am not yet ready to discuss what I am doing or why with other primates. So: “migraine, in late” and emptying out the memory vault on MeTa.
Thank you for your work on the oversight committee, while I’m here. I wish that I was the kind of person that I trusted to be a force for good in that kind of role but I am not. I really hope it goes well for you all.
posted by Ryvar at 9:21 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Yeah I don't really care but seemed a convenient way to close the Twitter thread. And a lot of unnecessary drama. Just state it's not possible, and we're moving on. If people won't stop talking about it that's what moderation is for.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:42 AM on January 31 [5 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:42 AM on January 31 [5 favorites]
fight or flight: "In the three whole hours between the original comment and Brandon's response, there were two (2) additional comments about it, one of which could easily be read as a sarcastic joke rather than someone actually taking it seriously. Hardly an "the sky is falling, everyone needs to know about this immediately" emergency."
OTOH, the comment alleged that multiple other people had contacted them about it, which suggested (rightly or wrongly) that this was a broader perception. Not great to leave a serious accusation like that festering for hours overnight.
posted by Rhaomi at 9:43 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
OTOH, the comment alleged that multiple other people had contacted them about it, which suggested (rightly or wrongly) that this was a broader perception. Not great to leave a serious accusation like that festering for hours overnight.
posted by Rhaomi at 9:43 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
It is definitely technically possible to broadcast everything typed in a textbox to a central server using XHR or WebSockets, and then to feed that data into a Kafka stream or something that allows an admin dashboard to filter by user. Is that actually happening? I severely doubt it. From what I know about the site is is kind of a mishmosh of features and functionality that were developed ad-hoc over many years and is very likely in dire need of a complete refactor or replatforming. Either way I'm not seeing any XHR or websockets traffic in the inspector when I type. Ditto in MeMail, which lacks even the real time preview pane that the message pages have.
In short: this is not happening.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:46 AM on January 31 [9 favorites]
In short: this is not happening.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:46 AM on January 31 [9 favorites]
Mods are expected to put up with a lot. I don’t think a serious accusation of a major violation of site norms should be among that. I can’t imagine what motivated the accusatIon, I don’t believe it (for any number of reasons), and I don’t think BB or any mod should have to silently let it stand. That just isn’t fair. If this were true (and again, I don’t think it is) it would absolutely need to be its own post.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 9:50 AM on January 31 [15 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 9:50 AM on January 31 [15 favorites]
Anyway, the temporarily closed, "just give me 10 minutes" thread is still closed. 12 hours later.
It is now open again, but for the record, I was/am fine with it being closed. It doesn't seem like there is as much concern about enabling a Nazi as I had hoped, and the thread was devolving into derails anyway. Seemed reasonable to me to shut it down, for however long.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:51 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
It is now open again, but for the record, I was/am fine with it being closed. It doesn't seem like there is as much concern about enabling a Nazi as I had hoped, and the thread was devolving into derails anyway. Seemed reasonable to me to shut it down, for however long.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:51 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
But...what is there to talk about here? The mods have said not possible. The end.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:51 AM on January 31
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:51 AM on January 31
If only there were some third, middle option between silently letting it stand and broadcasting y2karl with a whole Metatalk. Gosh, like just a comment in the thread that says "no, this is not a thing," and using our world class effective paid moderation to keep the resulting conversation on track.
posted by phunniemee at 9:52 AM on January 31 [19 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 9:52 AM on January 31 [19 favorites]
Yeah, that really wouldn't have cued up a chorus of people saying "I'm disturbed that the mods are so blithely dismissive of this, really feels like they're just trying to sweep it under the MetaCarpet, hmmmm."
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:02 AM on January 31 [14 favorites]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:02 AM on January 31 [14 favorites]
I have a question!
It seems like that comment from y2karl doesn't show up when I view their profile and go to recent activity (and even specifically indicate recent activity from MetaTalk...). Why is that? I feel like I'm doing something wrong but it's such a simple operation what could I be doing wrong.
posted by kbanas at 10:04 AM on January 31
It seems like that comment from y2karl doesn't show up when I view their profile and go to recent activity (and even specifically indicate recent activity from MetaTalk...). Why is that? I feel like I'm doing something wrong but it's such a simple operation what could I be doing wrong.
posted by kbanas at 10:04 AM on January 31
No you're totally right, closing a thread in a panic, opening a fresh Metatalk, and having one mod say "this is absolutely not a thing" and another mod say "well actually it is a thing, sometimes" is definitely the best way to handle it.
posted by phunniemee at 10:04 AM on January 31 [15 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 10:04 AM on January 31 [15 favorites]
what could I be doing wrong.
Activity defaults to posts. Did you change it to look at comments?
posted by phunniemee at 10:06 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Activity defaults to posts. Did you change it to look at comments?
posted by phunniemee at 10:06 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Activity defaults to posts. Did you change it to look at comments?
No, I didn't. I figured it was my fault. Thanks!
posted by kbanas at 10:08 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
No, I didn't. I figured it was my fault. Thanks!
posted by kbanas at 10:08 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
I can see the comment from y2karl via his profile by clicking on the "Comments" link next to MetaTalk where it splits up activity by subsites and posts v. comments. FWIW.
posted by fennario at 10:09 AM on January 31
posted by fennario at 10:09 AM on January 31
I would love to know if Brandon asked y2Karl if it would be okay to open a MeTa to discuss his comment before he did it. I would also love to know if any moderator has reached out to y2Karl to reassure him and check and see if he's okay in general. Those are the actions I'd expect from a "community-run" site that actually stands by the ethos of "everyone needs a hug".
posted by fight or flight at 10:13 AM on January 31 [12 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 10:13 AM on January 31 [12 favorites]
Yeah, that really wouldn't have cued up a chorus of people saying "I'm disturbed that the mods are so blithely dismissive of this, really feels like they're just trying to sweep it under the MetaCarpet, hmmmm."
The more I think about this, the more I’m convinced that this post was the only way this could be addressed.
I do feel bad that the suspecter is in the spotlight for reasons they may not have been in full control of, but the mods have a larger responsibility for the health of the site.
posted by Lemkin at 10:14 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
The more I think about this, the more I’m convinced that this post was the only way this could be addressed.
I do feel bad that the suspecter is in the spotlight for reasons they may not have been in full control of, but the mods have a larger responsibility for the health of the site.
posted by Lemkin at 10:14 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Here's how it could have been addressed without Brandon bringing the commenter in question into it so he can be evaluated by the popcorn gallery:
"Hi all. A user on the site has made an accusation about the moderators ability to read MeFiMail. This is absolutely not true and I have no idea how they could come to such a conclusion. Moderators are unable to read members MeFIMail. I’ve created this new thread to discuss these accusations. But be aware that it’s the middle of the night for most of the staff, so there won’t be much response. The interim Board and other staff moderators have been notified, so please be patient. "
See how easy that is? See how that respects the user's privacy and in doing so acts compassionately towards someone who might also be struggling?
But that would have required Brandon to actually stop and think about what he was doing rather than hitting post on it in a fit of pique in the middle of the night, right before he and the rest of the mod team clocked out. Moderators should not be going around acting like frustrated children when they deal with important site issues.
posted by fight or flight at 10:18 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
"Hi all. A user on the site has made an accusation about the moderators ability to read MeFiMail. This is absolutely not true and I have no idea how they could come to such a conclusion. Moderators are unable to read members MeFIMail. I’ve created this new thread to discuss these accusations. But be aware that it’s the middle of the night for most of the staff, so there won’t be much response. The interim Board and other staff moderators have been notified, so please be patient. "
See how easy that is? See how that respects the user's privacy and in doing so acts compassionately towards someone who might also be struggling?
But that would have required Brandon to actually stop and think about what he was doing rather than hitting post on it in a fit of pique in the middle of the night, right before he and the rest of the mod team clocked out. Moderators should not be going around acting like frustrated children when they deal with important site issues.
posted by fight or flight at 10:18 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
Maybe we could hide y2karl's name under some kind of spoiler warning or explicit content note?
posted by phunniemee at 10:19 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 10:19 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
See how that respects the user's privacy
The user forfeited their own privacy, unfortunately.
posted by Lemkin at 10:28 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
The user forfeited their own privacy, unfortunately.
posted by Lemkin at 10:28 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
Anyway, the temporarily closed, "just give me 10 minutes" thread is still closed. 12 hours later.
I read that as, "Give me 10 minutes to make a new post to move the derail over there. Then, this post will be closed for a while to make sure the derail stays over there." Not that the post would only be closed for 10 minutes.
Here's how it could have been addressed without Brandon bringing the commenter in question into it so he can be evaluated by the popcorn gallery:
"Hi all. A user
...
See how easy that is? See how that respects the user's privacy and in doing so acts compassionately towards someone who might also be struggling?
That has been done in the past, with literally the words "a user" and plenty of people didn't think it gave the user anonymity.
It's a tough call, but I think the specific comment needed to be linked to so everyone had the right context.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 10:31 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
I read that as, "Give me 10 minutes to make a new post to move the derail over there. Then, this post will be closed for a while to make sure the derail stays over there." Not that the post would only be closed for 10 minutes.
Here's how it could have been addressed without Brandon bringing the commenter in question into it so he can be evaluated by the popcorn gallery:
"Hi all. A user
...
See how easy that is? See how that respects the user's privacy and in doing so acts compassionately towards someone who might also be struggling?
That has been done in the past, with literally the words "a user" and plenty of people didn't think it gave the user anonymity.
It's a tough call, but I think the specific comment needed to be linked to so everyone had the right context.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 10:31 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Does MeMail block messages containing text in the unacceptable words list?
I wrote a filter for unacceptable words for the new site and will check for them in posts, comments, and emails.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 10:37 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
I wrote a filter for unacceptable words for the new site and will check for them in posts, comments, and emails.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 10:37 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
But even the off-the-shelf stuff I use has encrypted messages in the database for years.
We can encrypt mail messages before storing them in the database and decrypt them when retrieving them. Also we can only display messages if the logged-in user ID is the same as the recipient ID.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 10:43 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
We can encrypt mail messages before storing them in the database and decrypt them when retrieving them. Also we can only display messages if the logged-in user ID is the same as the recipient ID.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 10:43 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Hey Kirkaracha: are MeFi mail messages currently encrypted in the DB of the new site? Do you know if they are for the current site? If (as I suspect) they are not for the current site but will be for the new site, do you have a process for converting current unencrypted to pending encryption as part of the upcoming transition?
Sorry to put you on the spot, understand if the answer to any of those is “working on it, please hold”
posted by Ryvar at 10:46 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
Sorry to put you on the spot, understand if the answer to any of those is “working on it, please hold”
posted by Ryvar at 10:46 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
I don't know if the messages are encrypted in the current DB; my guess is they're not.
do you have a process for converting current unencrypted to pending encryption as part of the upcoming transition?
Working on it, please hold. Since I only discovered this was a need five minutes ago, I don't have a process in place yet.
I haven't started working on mail yet, but I'll include encryption when I do.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 10:51 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
do you have a process for converting current unencrypted to pending encryption as part of the upcoming transition?
Working on it, please hold. Since I only discovered this was a need five minutes ago, I don't have a process in place yet.
I haven't started working on mail yet, but I'll include encryption when I do.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 10:51 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
I do understand why the mods wanted to address this issue immediately. It's the kind of claim that could quickly get out of hand.
Out of respect for members, even if folks can trace back relevant parties, we should not be using names. I also think folks should not be speculating on members' mental health publicly. Ever.
posted by Violet Blue at 10:51 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
Out of respect for members, even if folks can trace back relevant parties, we should not be using names. I also think folks should not be speculating on members' mental health publicly. Ever.
posted by Violet Blue at 10:51 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
Meh. y2karl said a verifiable thing publicly in a webforum. A post not using his name would trace right back to his comment with, yes, his name.
Such a post would also call him "a user" instead of y2karl and devolve immediately into "A User" jokes instead of the topic at hand. (I would have seen to it.) This doesn't feel bullying, and agree there's no reason for users to speculate aloud about anyone's mental health.
posted by kensington314 at 11:06 AM on January 31 [10 favorites]
Such a post would also call him "a user" instead of y2karl and devolve immediately into "A User" jokes instead of the topic at hand. (I would have seen to it.) This doesn't feel bullying, and agree there's no reason for users to speculate aloud about anyone's mental health.
posted by kensington314 at 11:06 AM on January 31 [10 favorites]
Such a post would also call him "a user" instead of y2karl and devolve immediately into "A User" jokes instead of the topic at hand. (I would have seen to it.)
Just because the source is top of mind and easy to find now doesn't mean it will be top of mind in a few months or years, and folks should have the right to be forgotten, so to speak, especially in controversial matters.
posted by Violet Blue at 11:10 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
Just because the source is top of mind and easy to find now doesn't mean it will be top of mind in a few months or years, and folks should have the right to be forgotten, so to speak, especially in controversial matters.
posted by Violet Blue at 11:10 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
Here's how it could have been addressed without Brandon bringing the commenter in question into it so he can be evaluated by the popcorn gallery:
In this scenario, are you suggesting that Brandon should have deleted the original comment? And if not, wouldn't everyone have just run straight to the other thread to figure out who made the accusation? And even if he HAD deleted it, it had already been seen by a few (several?) members and if y'all don't think members don't gossip in MeMail or off-site to track down who says contentious things you are very much mistaken.
It's just, there's literally nothing Brandon could have done in this situation that wouldn't upset at least a few people. Personally I'm fine with how this went down but then again I don't have any issues with the current moderators and how they're doing their jobs. I love this place but I'm not all up in its business, you know?
posted by cooker girl at 11:13 AM on January 31 [11 favorites]
In this scenario, are you suggesting that Brandon should have deleted the original comment? And if not, wouldn't everyone have just run straight to the other thread to figure out who made the accusation? And even if he HAD deleted it, it had already been seen by a few (several?) members and if y'all don't think members don't gossip in MeMail or off-site to track down who says contentious things you are very much mistaken.
It's just, there's literally nothing Brandon could have done in this situation that wouldn't upset at least a few people. Personally I'm fine with how this went down but then again I don't have any issues with the current moderators and how they're doing their jobs. I love this place but I'm not all up in its business, you know?
posted by cooker girl at 11:13 AM on January 31 [11 favorites]
I was actually pleasantly surprised, for the most part, with the response in-thread, which was to give y2karl a way to escalate the concern. This MeTa, in contrast, especially the first comment, feels like a teacher forcing a student to the front of the class and demanding they tell them who else was being naughty.
It would have been preferable to approach the issue with curiosity rather than defensiveness. Y2karl is a long-time user and if he thinks something weird is going on, then it seems like a reasonable assumption might be that something weird is going on, even if it's not the weird thing he thinks is going on. Like, why would someone believe MeMail deletions are happening? Are messages disappearing? Are there moderator comments that seem to be responding to comments made in MeMail? Etc. Rather than demanding sitations (sic).
posted by lapis at 11:24 AM on January 31 [11 favorites]
It would have been preferable to approach the issue with curiosity rather than defensiveness. Y2karl is a long-time user and if he thinks something weird is going on, then it seems like a reasonable assumption might be that something weird is going on, even if it's not the weird thing he thinks is going on. Like, why would someone believe MeMail deletions are happening? Are messages disappearing? Are there moderator comments that seem to be responding to comments made in MeMail? Etc. Rather than demanding sitations (sic).
posted by lapis at 11:24 AM on January 31 [11 favorites]
I see people fretting that their messages can technically be read by admins (not the mods). No amount of encryption can solve that but it will slow down hackers if the database is ever stolen so it might be a good idea.
You certainly want admins to be able to access messages in exceptional circumstances to prevent abuse.
Anybody that is upset to learn this should take a look at the domain name at the top of their browser. Unless your name happens to be Metafilter Dotcom, this site is owned and run by other people. Anything you type into it is subject to their rules. Which is how it should be because they are ultimately responsible for your misuse. This is true for any site.
posted by AndrewStephens at 11:44 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
You certainly want admins to be able to access messages in exceptional circumstances to prevent abuse.
Anybody that is upset to learn this should take a look at the domain name at the top of their browser. Unless your name happens to be Metafilter Dotcom, this site is owned and run by other people. Anything you type into it is subject to their rules. Which is how it should be because they are ultimately responsible for your misuse. This is true for any site.
posted by AndrewStephens at 11:44 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
Hi, it's Brandon chiming in to clarify a few things, but mostly just listening.
I thought the comment was serious enough to warrant an immediate answer and space to focus solely on that, hence the new MeTa. That was also the thought process behind pointing out the comment on the mod slack and dropping a note to the interim board and warriorqueen, who's heading up the Mod OverSight Committee. That, IMO, was just basic communications so that no one is surprised about what occurred and what the initial response was.
The comment isn't about me per se or even the user who made it, IMO. This MeTa is about making it clear what a moderator's ability is in terms of reading MeFiMails (none) and giving space for not only the original commenter but anyone else who believes that mods have that or similar abilities and/or practices (we do not).
Those members who believe that or anything else sketchy should contact the Interim Board (MeFiCoFo@gmail.com)and/or warriorqueen in their role as head of the Moderation Oversight Committee so that those issues can be verified and/or dealt with.
Otherwise, I'd be thrilled to chalk this up to someone having a bad day, and we all move from this. But the claims are serious and I think that being as transparent as possible is the best way to go, hence this MeTa.
Closing the other MeTa was meant to be a temporary measure and a decision I made by myself. But I wound up getting busy with other stuff and didn't get to bed till around 8am ET, so reopening the other MeTa got lost in the shuffle, my apologies. It is open now and hopefully rerailed to its topic.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:55 AM on January 31 [12 favorites]
I thought the comment was serious enough to warrant an immediate answer and space to focus solely on that, hence the new MeTa. That was also the thought process behind pointing out the comment on the mod slack and dropping a note to the interim board and warriorqueen, who's heading up the Mod OverSight Committee. That, IMO, was just basic communications so that no one is surprised about what occurred and what the initial response was.
The comment isn't about me per se or even the user who made it, IMO. This MeTa is about making it clear what a moderator's ability is in terms of reading MeFiMails (none) and giving space for not only the original commenter but anyone else who believes that mods have that or similar abilities and/or practices (we do not).
Those members who believe that or anything else sketchy should contact the Interim Board (MeFiCoFo@gmail.com)and/or warriorqueen in their role as head of the Moderation Oversight Committee so that those issues can be verified and/or dealt with.
Otherwise, I'd be thrilled to chalk this up to someone having a bad day, and we all move from this. But the claims are serious and I think that being as transparent as possible is the best way to go, hence this MeTa.
Closing the other MeTa was meant to be a temporary measure and a decision I made by myself. But I wound up getting busy with other stuff and didn't get to bed till around 8am ET, so reopening the other MeTa got lost in the shuffle, my apologies. It is open now and hopefully rerailed to its topic.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:55 AM on January 31 [12 favorites]
Unless your name happens to be Metafilter Dotcom, this site is owned and run by other people.
Don't make me tap thesign link to the FAQ about Non Profit transition in the site banner.
As we get further into the changeover, I feel that MeTa increasingly has even more of a
posted by zamboni at 11:56 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Don't make me tap the
As we get further into the changeover, I feel that MeTa increasingly has even more of a
we have met the enemy and he is usvibe than normal.
posted by zamboni at 11:56 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Mods reading private messages - MeFi being custom-built, I can't dismiss this out of hand. But even the off-the-shelf stuff I use has encrypted messages in the database for years. I'd have to dig the hashed stuff form the db and decrypt, and I'm not sure I know how. Unless Brandon has a coding or development background of which I am unaware, it would be, I believe, entirely beyond his means.
I’d be a little surprised if MeFi PMs are encrypted, honestly, and there’s zero chance that they are encrypted in a way that would prevent the tech folks from accessing them if they wanted to go out of their way to do so. But it seems unlikely that it’s a regular mod-facing feature to read them, altogether implausible that there’s any mechanism that would allow intercepting them before they are visible, and highly unlikely that they are intentionally deleted by staff after they are saved and visible. Just off of basic principles of how this stuff works.
posted by atoxyl at 1:04 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
I’d be a little surprised if MeFi PMs are encrypted, honestly, and there’s zero chance that they are encrypted in a way that would prevent the tech folks from accessing them if they wanted to go out of their way to do so. But it seems unlikely that it’s a regular mod-facing feature to read them, altogether implausible that there’s any mechanism that would allow intercepting them before they are visible, and highly unlikely that they are intentionally deleted by staff after they are saved and visible. Just off of basic principles of how this stuff works.
posted by atoxyl at 1:04 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
No amount of encryption can solve that but it will slow down hackers if the database is ever stolen so it might be a good idea.
Well, end-to-end encryption is a thing but it has tradeoffs and there’s no chance this ancient site implements it and as you say I’d generally assume MeFi prefers to retain emergency access
posted by atoxyl at 1:09 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
Well, end-to-end encryption is a thing but it has tradeoffs and there’s no chance this ancient site implements it and as you say I’d generally assume MeFi prefers to retain emergency access
posted by atoxyl at 1:09 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
This MeTa is about making it clear what a moderator's ability is in terms of reading MeFiMails (none) and giving space for not only the original commenter but anyone else who believes that mods have that or similar abilities and/or practices (we do not).
So, I’ve seen the moderator interface on a few occasions and don’t recall there being anything related to Mail on it - though it’s been a long ass time - but I do know that a lot of the mod staff have or have had the ability to directly run SQL commands on the site’s main db (occurs to me I don’t even know whether mail is on the same db). I’m not sure whether this is a thing you have access to. It may be something you are not aware of having access to. It may be something that requires having a login to the server hosting Metafilter and being in the sudoers file; and that level of access might only be site owner + admin, and you might legitimately not have access.
But if - as kirkaracha and I (edit: and atoxyl) both suspect - the db storing mail messages is not encrypted, then anyone who does have the ability to issue SQL commands to that db has the ability to read, delete, and modify mail messages (but not previews) at will. And there’s no way for the community to know who has that level of access.
All of this will cease to be a problem if and when mail is stored encrypted on the new site. We’ll also lose the ability for mods to intervene should mail be used for abuse, but mail would become inviolate unless the mods were granted the ability to login as a different user.
Oh and for the record: I don’t think you’ve actually done anything wrong, Brandon. Not at all. I sincerely believe you that you haven’t touched this shit and are not aware of being able to do so. It’s just there’s good reason to suspect your access might be far greater than you realize. That’s not a thing you should be required to prove, since proving a negative is impossible.
You might, however, want to look into it. I legit trust you, either way.
posted by Ryvar at 1:12 PM on January 31 [7 favorites]
So, I’ve seen the moderator interface on a few occasions and don’t recall there being anything related to Mail on it - though it’s been a long ass time - but I do know that a lot of the mod staff have or have had the ability to directly run SQL commands on the site’s main db (occurs to me I don’t even know whether mail is on the same db). I’m not sure whether this is a thing you have access to. It may be something you are not aware of having access to. It may be something that requires having a login to the server hosting Metafilter and being in the sudoers file; and that level of access might only be site owner + admin, and you might legitimately not have access.
But if - as kirkaracha and I (edit: and atoxyl) both suspect - the db storing mail messages is not encrypted, then anyone who does have the ability to issue SQL commands to that db has the ability to read, delete, and modify mail messages (but not previews) at will. And there’s no way for the community to know who has that level of access.
All of this will cease to be a problem if and when mail is stored encrypted on the new site. We’ll also lose the ability for mods to intervene should mail be used for abuse, but mail would become inviolate unless the mods were granted the ability to login as a different user.
Oh and for the record: I don’t think you’ve actually done anything wrong, Brandon. Not at all. I sincerely believe you that you haven’t touched this shit and are not aware of being able to do so. It’s just there’s good reason to suspect your access might be far greater than you realize. That’s not a thing you should be required to prove, since proving a negative is impossible.
You might, however, want to look into it. I legit trust you, either way.
posted by Ryvar at 1:12 PM on January 31 [7 favorites]
For the record, sites can be programmed to grab user-form data before it’s submitted
Can sites be hacked to do this from outside? I know we're a small community but we discuss serious things a lot. Disrupting us would be a win for some small minds. I'm also pretty certain a few members here are only here to weaken cohesion. I see this in other online communities.
posted by unearthed at 1:30 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
Can sites be hacked to do this from outside? I know we're a small community but we discuss serious things a lot. Disrupting us would be a win for some small minds. I'm also pretty certain a few members here are only here to weaken cohesion. I see this in other online communities.
posted by unearthed at 1:30 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
The vulnerabilities that got both images and user-customized CSS for our profiles deep-sixed would both permit something like that if some maniac were prepared to sink several weeks of caffeine-fueled programmer fugue state into it. Possibly more work than rewriting the entire front end of the site from scratch.
Realistically: lol, no, it will never ever happen unless the site manages to seriously piss off, like, the Mossad or DPRK somehow. We are far too small for that to be a realistic concern.
posted by Ryvar at 1:42 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Realistically: lol, no, it will never ever happen unless the site manages to seriously piss off, like, the Mossad or DPRK somehow. We are far too small for that to be a realistic concern.
posted by Ryvar at 1:42 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
> then anyone who does have the ability to issue SQL commands to that db has the ability to read, delete, and modify mail messages (but not previews) at will. And there’s no way for the community to know who has that level of access.
That was the point I was trying to make above - anyone who works on the site as at an admin level has access to everything. If you don't trust the people who run the site then you shouldn't type anything into a text field here that you feel would come back to bite you. The same goes for any site.
> Can sites be hacked to do this from outside?
Sure, but there is no evidence that MF has been hacked in this way and it would be pretty quickly obvious. What is more likely is for a certain user to have accidentally installed a malicious browser plugin or application that allows a third-party to mess with them. But that is nothing to do with MF.
I'm not saying not to use MeFi Mail - just treat each message as written on a postcard rather than a military secret.
posted by AndrewStephens at 1:43 PM on January 31
That was the point I was trying to make above - anyone who works on the site as at an admin level has access to everything. If you don't trust the people who run the site then you shouldn't type anything into a text field here that you feel would come back to bite you. The same goes for any site.
> Can sites be hacked to do this from outside?
Sure, but there is no evidence that MF has been hacked in this way and it would be pretty quickly obvious. What is more likely is for a certain user to have accidentally installed a malicious browser plugin or application that allows a third-party to mess with them. But that is nothing to do with MF.
I'm not saying not to use MeFi Mail - just treat each message as written on a postcard rather than a military secret.
posted by AndrewStephens at 1:43 PM on January 31
anyone who works on the site as at an admin level has access to everything
Well, no. CMS access is not web hosting account access. Giving someone a login to the web-based admin for a content management application is not the same as giving them access and read/write status to the underlying database.
As a data point, many people here have likely worked for online media and had access to submit or even post articles, but it does mean they were able to access the actual hosting account, its raw files, or its database. It doesn't mean they could delete the home page, mass edit tables, install applications...
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:47 PM on January 31 [6 favorites]
Well, no. CMS access is not web hosting account access. Giving someone a login to the web-based admin for a content management application is not the same as giving them access and read/write status to the underlying database.
As a data point, many people here have likely worked for online media and had access to submit or even post articles, but it does mean they were able to access the actual hosting account, its raw files, or its database. It doesn't mean they could delete the home page, mass edit tables, install applications...
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:47 PM on January 31 [6 favorites]
"it does NOT mean they were able" that should say.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:57 PM on January 31
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:57 PM on January 31
Can sites be hacked to do this from outside?
Almost certainly. But having done so, why would the malefactor choose such a passive-aggressive means of exploiting their control?
posted by Lemkin at 2:46 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Almost certainly. But having done so, why would the malefactor choose such a passive-aggressive means of exploiting their control?
posted by Lemkin at 2:46 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
like just a comment in the thread that says "no, this is not a thing," and using our world class
I don't think Karl would have accepted that simple statement, would you.
I do know, in pb's time, memail could be dug out and looked at but this was in terms that Taz stated above.
shenanigans? Scooby crowds better to answer that than I.
Karl wrote
Honestly Brandon, I think that was intended as a permanent ban but you heard from people.
in my mind I want to know who was banned was it him, was it someone else... this matters already been solved so so so.
but to me that would, how shall I say delicately, indicate say. well I think Karl was pissed off.
The secret one man band and Orwell sprinkles is the right ta-ta but the wrong toe-toe. in other words it seems rather uncharacteristic. Something I understand as I've used meta for more trivial matters. Karl, I'd sent you a memail but I'm afraid if you're reading this, you're going to be pissed already and I think that's the point and I think you know it.
as to the member above who queried of karl's going to stick around, he's been through worse than that. Flap better natured wings my brother.
In solitude the trumpets of solitude
Are not of another solitude resounding;
A little string speaks for a crowd of voices.
The partaker partakes of that which changes him.
posted by clavdivs at 5:40 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
I don't think Karl would have accepted that simple statement, would you.
I do know, in pb's time, memail could be dug out and looked at but this was in terms that Taz stated above.
shenanigans? Scooby crowds better to answer that than I.
Karl wrote
Honestly Brandon, I think that was intended as a permanent ban but you heard from people.
in my mind I want to know who was banned was it him, was it someone else... this matters already been solved so so so.
but to me that would, how shall I say delicately, indicate say. well I think Karl was pissed off.
The secret one man band and Orwell sprinkles is the right ta-ta but the wrong toe-toe. in other words it seems rather uncharacteristic. Something I understand as I've used meta for more trivial matters. Karl, I'd sent you a memail but I'm afraid if you're reading this, you're going to be pissed already and I think that's the point and I think you know it.
as to the member above who queried of karl's going to stick around, he's been through worse than that. Flap better natured wings my brother.
In solitude the trumpets of solitude
Are not of another solitude resounding;
A little string speaks for a crowd of voices.
The partaker partakes of that which changes him.
posted by clavdivs at 5:40 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Just as a final note from me, I'm going to drop out of checking on this thread because as a moderator I personally find I can either do the moderation tasks or I can read and try to figure out what on earth is going on in Metatalk, but not both. In case it's helpful, here's the Mefi Mail FAQ. There's some pertinent info at the bottom:
So, the word "access" here means what I said earlier; we ask frimble to have a look (and PB before frimble). We've always been pretty careful about this and generally don't even ask for specific text unless there is some reason it matters. For me, the question is "Do we have a problem?" (as super shorthand, that, for me, is "Is someone harassing, trying to exploit, or abusing another member or members on the site?").
A couple of other factoids that may or may not be useful to know: Mefi Mail was only ever meant as a very simple instrument for members to communicate with each other in a basic way. It was not created for moderators. (For us, contact mail is 1000 times more useful, because that way all mods can see and respond; if the original mod is not on duty, next mod can step in to finish up helping the mailer with whatever their question or issue is, and everybody knows -- or can check -- what the status is if they need to.) I barely look at my Mefi Mail, to be honest, unless I've sent someone a quick note like "html messed up in your post, can you give me correct url and I will change?" etc. So, I don't even look at my mail much, and I certainly don't look at yours. I would never in a million lifetimes want to do that. Not because I'm a perfect person, but because I just don't care. I don't care what you are chatting about with someone unless it's something harmful to the site or another member.
I've never witnessed the desire or inclination to do that from any other staff member past or present. If they did have such an inclination, frimble wouldn't agree to cooperate, nobody else would agree and/or participate, and I'm pretty sure Frimble would notice if someone was rummaging around down in THE BOWELS OF THE SITE. (We just haven't said "bowels of the site" in a long time, so I took this opportunity.)
The second thing is that there are no bells and whistles in Mefi mail because it was never meant to be a full fledged email replacement, or even close to that. The site has resisted all requests to make mefi mail more like regular email, because, well, obviously, nobody on the admin side wants to run an email service, and there's no reason to make things we don't need or want. Our advice has always, always been to switch to your regular email if you want regular email. From the FAQ:
MeFi Mail is intended for basic conversation, not as a replacement for a full-fledged email system. For more extended or full-featured conversations, your best bet is to exchange email addresses with someone.
If it's simple enough to penetrate Mefi mail (as people are saying here), it's because it's a very, very simple little in-site app. To our knowledge there have never been such shenanigans, but nevetheless, we don't want you to use it to share sensitive information. Please don't do that.
Finally I'll just say that we are just normal people doing regular work, not the weird, evil , twisted entities that some folks seem to imagine. But if you do have questions, please ask us! Contact mail. Bottom of every page. Boom. Sometimes things are tricky because we do not want to reveal info about another member or there are similar privacy concerns, so we might not be able to give you a God-level view of what's happening everywhere all the time (we don't even have that, or anything close to it; we'd need to be hiring from some other realm entirely), but we will explain as honestly and clearly as possible under whatever constrictions apply. Please just ask before making up weird motivations, etc. and never forget your good friend Occam.
Thank you, and good night! I'll see you in the Blue!
posted by taz (staff) at 2:51 AM on February 1 [31 favorites]
Unless you have specific permission, reposting someone's MeFi Mail is a violation of site guidelines. Do not use MeFi Mail to harass or stalk or spam other users. Abusing MeFi Mail in this way can result in your account being banned. Moderators can access MeFi Mail but will only do so in cases of harassment or spamming complains.Maybe we can further elucidate there if it's not entirely clear. (it's tough to keep the FAQ concise enough to answer basic questions and also address "what if" sorts of questions we've never considered, for example, but we always welcome suggestions on how to make entries more helpful.)
So, the word "access" here means what I said earlier; we ask frimble to have a look (and PB before frimble). We've always been pretty careful about this and generally don't even ask for specific text unless there is some reason it matters. For me, the question is "Do we have a problem?" (as super shorthand, that, for me, is "Is someone harassing, trying to exploit, or abusing another member or members on the site?").
A couple of other factoids that may or may not be useful to know: Mefi Mail was only ever meant as a very simple instrument for members to communicate with each other in a basic way. It was not created for moderators. (For us, contact mail is 1000 times more useful, because that way all mods can see and respond; if the original mod is not on duty, next mod can step in to finish up helping the mailer with whatever their question or issue is, and everybody knows -- or can check -- what the status is if they need to.) I barely look at my Mefi Mail, to be honest, unless I've sent someone a quick note like "html messed up in your post, can you give me correct url and I will change?" etc. So, I don't even look at my mail much, and I certainly don't look at yours. I would never in a million lifetimes want to do that. Not because I'm a perfect person, but because I just don't care. I don't care what you are chatting about with someone unless it's something harmful to the site or another member.
I've never witnessed the desire or inclination to do that from any other staff member past or present. If they did have such an inclination, frimble wouldn't agree to cooperate, nobody else would agree and/or participate, and I'm pretty sure Frimble would notice if someone was rummaging around down in THE BOWELS OF THE SITE. (We just haven't said "bowels of the site" in a long time, so I took this opportunity.)
The second thing is that there are no bells and whistles in Mefi mail because it was never meant to be a full fledged email replacement, or even close to that. The site has resisted all requests to make mefi mail more like regular email, because, well, obviously, nobody on the admin side wants to run an email service, and there's no reason to make things we don't need or want. Our advice has always, always been to switch to your regular email if you want regular email. From the FAQ:
MeFi Mail is intended for basic conversation, not as a replacement for a full-fledged email system. For more extended or full-featured conversations, your best bet is to exchange email addresses with someone.
If it's simple enough to penetrate Mefi mail (as people are saying here), it's because it's a very, very simple little in-site app. To our knowledge there have never been such shenanigans, but nevetheless, we don't want you to use it to share sensitive information. Please don't do that.
Finally I'll just say that we are just normal people doing regular work, not the weird, evil , twisted entities that some folks seem to imagine. But if you do have questions, please ask us! Contact mail. Bottom of every page. Boom. Sometimes things are tricky because we do not want to reveal info about another member or there are similar privacy concerns, so we might not be able to give you a God-level view of what's happening everywhere all the time (we don't even have that, or anything close to it; we'd need to be hiring from some other realm entirely), but we will explain as honestly and clearly as possible under whatever constrictions apply. Please just ask before making up weird motivations, etc. and never forget your good friend Occam.
Thank you, and good night! I'll see you in the Blue!
posted by taz (staff) at 2:51 AM on February 1 [31 favorites]
It probably would’ve been better to make this thread without calling out y2karl directly for two reasons:
1) y2karl is almost certainly having a bad time right now. (Aren’t we all?)
2) The site issue isn’t that one user made an accusation, it’s that multiple users appear to share the belief. Having a single user as a focus was a guaranteed derail.
As per item 2 the site issue is why this discussion needed to be its own Meta. This is not an isolated “one person thinks this“ thing and it needs to be addressed for everyone, not just the lurkers at the end of a long contentious thread.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:09 AM on February 1 [4 favorites]
1) y2karl is almost certainly having a bad time right now. (Aren’t we all?)
2) The site issue isn’t that one user made an accusation, it’s that multiple users appear to share the belief. Having a single user as a focus was a guaranteed derail.
As per item 2 the site issue is why this discussion needed to be its own Meta. This is not an isolated “one person thinks this“ thing and it needs to be addressed for everyone, not just the lurkers at the end of a long contentious thread.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:09 AM on February 1 [4 favorites]
The site issue isn’t that one user made an accusation, it’s that multiple users appear to share the belief
I don't think a lot of people were surprised management can access MeMails any more than they'd be surprised Google could check Gmail accounts or Apple could view iMessage logs were they so inclined or induced. What raised eyebrows for a couple reasons and put the mods on the back foot was the accusation they were actively monitoring and fucking with users' messages. Apparently on another platform that user now says that claim was incorrect.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:25 AM on February 1 [3 favorites]
I don't think a lot of people were surprised management can access MeMails any more than they'd be surprised Google could check Gmail accounts or Apple could view iMessage logs were they so inclined or induced. What raised eyebrows for a couple reasons and put the mods on the back foot was the accusation they were actively monitoring and fucking with users' messages. Apparently on another platform that user now says that claim was incorrect.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:25 AM on February 1 [3 favorites]
Contact mail. Bottom of every page. Boom. Sometimes things are tricky because we do not want to reveal info about another member
The last time I used the contact form a mod emailed me info about another member, unrelated and unprompted! Thank you!
posted by phunniemee at 12:51 PM on February 1 [8 favorites]
The last time I used the contact form a mod emailed me info about another member, unrelated and unprompted! Thank you!
posted by phunniemee at 12:51 PM on February 1 [8 favorites]
All I know now is over on r/metafiltermeta more than one person reports asking if a mod can read MeMails in real life and got a hell yeah. In real life but not in pixels on a screen I have dealt with Brandon before in the past and I will never trust him again. Here he called the wahbulance in the wee hours and dragged every other mod in for back up. This is not a trust building exercise. One thing we have in common is we both can be highly labile. I want no more part of this. I still think we are doomed as a nonprofit because this playing make me right by make you wrong is no way to run a railroad. What we need are mutually agreed upon guardrails rather than wee hour meltdowns but good luck with that. okthxbi.
posted by y2karl at 1:08 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 1:08 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
Mod note: People who believe the moderators are doing or have done something again the rules are encouraged to contact the Moderation Oversight Committee via warriorqueen's MeFiMail and/or contact the Interim Board via email at MeFiCoFo@gmail.com
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:24 PM on February 1 [3 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:24 PM on February 1 [3 favorites]
as a moderator I personally find I can either do the moderation tasks or I can read and try to figure out what on earth is going on in Metatalk, but not both
As an aside, this seems like a big problem, because both of these things are part of the job!
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:04 PM on February 1 [16 favorites]
As an aside, this seems like a big problem, because both of these things are part of the job!
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:04 PM on February 1 [16 favorites]
All I know now is over on r/metafiltermeta more than one person reports asking if a mod can read MeMails in real life and got a hell yeah.
I didn't see that. Can you help me find those "hell yeahs"?
Since we are bringing up the subreddit, the link for that is here, for those who need any additional context.
I'll also add that someone over there said: "I am no doubt full of shit on almost everything I wrote" and if someone wants to do the work, it sure seems like it may be y2karl. Kinda makes the whole MeTa irrelevant.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 3:07 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
I didn't see that. Can you help me find those "hell yeahs"?
Since we are bringing up the subreddit, the link for that is here, for those who need any additional context.
I'll also add that someone over there said: "I am no doubt full of shit on almost everything I wrote" and if someone wants to do the work, it sure seems like it may be y2karl. Kinda makes the whole MeTa irrelevant.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 3:07 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
Since we are bringing up the subreddit, the link for that is here, for those who need any additional context.
I see they made some hay about the mod edit on my Alien Ask MeFi. As that's less depressing a subject than the official one, allow me to take a moment...
The question of when a plot reveal becomes "public domain", thus forfeiting spoiler-warning protection, is of course subjective. However, when it is from a popular 40+ year old science fiction franchise starter with multiple sequels, it seems to me pretty well spoiled.
Err on the side of caution, if you like, but I don't want to hear any complaints from someone just finding out who Luke Skywalker's father is.
posted by Lemkin at 4:00 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
I see they made some hay about the mod edit on my Alien Ask MeFi. As that's less depressing a subject than the official one, allow me to take a moment...
The question of when a plot reveal becomes "public domain", thus forfeiting spoiler-warning protection, is of course subjective. However, when it is from a popular 40+ year old science fiction franchise starter with multiple sequels, it seems to me pretty well spoiled.
Err on the side of caution, if you like, but I don't want to hear any complaints from someone just finding out who Luke Skywalker's father is.
posted by Lemkin at 4:00 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
I'll also add that someone over there said: "I am no doubt full of shit on almost everything I wrote" and if someone wants to do the work, it sure seems like it may be y2karl. Kinda makes the whole MeTa irrelevant.
Just, wow. Great stuff.
posted by kensington314 at 4:03 PM on February 1
Just, wow. Great stuff.
posted by kensington314 at 4:03 PM on February 1
While we're talking about moderation, who the fuck elected Violet Blue as a new unpaid mod? Did i miss the announcement? Or is she just being out of pocket again as usual?
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:29 PM on February 1 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:29 PM on February 1 [4 favorites]
I sympathize with her aims. But "no doom, please" is a big ask with the sound of jackboots echoing in the streets - metaphorically speaking.
posted by Lemkin at 5:41 PM on February 1
posted by Lemkin at 5:41 PM on February 1
If people are having an issue with a specific thread, could you please submit a new MeTa about that rather than coming into an already started one that has a different subject?
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:10 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:10 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
If people are having an issue with a specific thread, could you please submit a new MeTa about that
Done and done.
posted by Lemkin at 6:29 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
Done and done.
posted by Lemkin at 6:29 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
Done and done.
Maybe there's confusion or messages crossed paths?
You submitted a MeTa about 8:57pm ET
I replied to it at 9:26pm ET explaining why it wasn't being posted and answering the question
You posed the above comment at 9:29pm ET
It's now 9:48pm ET and I'm not seeing another MeTa in the queue, so maybe you meant the MeTa you submitted at 8:57pm ET?
Let me know! It was answered instead of posted because it was a specific question about a comment removal, but if you really want it posted, that'll work too.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:51 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
Maybe there's confusion or messages crossed paths?
You submitted a MeTa about 8:57pm ET
I replied to it at 9:26pm ET explaining why it wasn't being posted and answering the question
You posed the above comment at 9:29pm ET
It's now 9:48pm ET and I'm not seeing another MeTa in the queue, so maybe you meant the MeTa you submitted at 8:57pm ET?
Let me know! It was answered instead of posted because it was a specific question about a comment removal, but if you really want it posted, that'll work too.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:51 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
Let me know!
I was referring to the 8:57 PM.
I keep forgetting that the mods reply to us through our civilian email accounts instead of MeFi Mail. I'm sure you have your reasons. But I'm always here and I'm never there, so for me that system doesn't work well.
posted by Lemkin at 6:56 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
I was referring to the 8:57 PM.
I keep forgetting that the mods reply to us through our civilian email accounts instead of MeFi Mail. I'm sure you have your reasons. But I'm always here and I'm never there, so for me that system doesn't work well.
posted by Lemkin at 6:56 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
As an aside, this seems like a big problem, because both of these things are part of the job!
I mean, there are all sorts of things in my work that I have to prioritize one over the other because constantly task switching between the two leads to mistakes on both. I don’t think that’s a sign of anything more than respecting the importance of both.
Sometimes you don’t have time or attention to do everything in a single shift.
posted by Gygesringtone at 8:20 PM on February 1 [2 favorites]
I mean, there are all sorts of things in my work that I have to prioritize one over the other because constantly task switching between the two leads to mistakes on both. I don’t think that’s a sign of anything more than respecting the importance of both.
Sometimes you don’t have time or attention to do everything in a single shift.
posted by Gygesringtone at 8:20 PM on February 1 [2 favorites]
Ok, that thread has been posted.
I prefer email so I can cc the admin email so the other mods see what’s been sent and respond to it if they’re on duty and I am not.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:21 PM on February 1 [2 favorites]
I prefer email so I can cc the admin email so the other mods see what’s been sent and respond to it if they’re on duty and I am not.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:21 PM on February 1 [2 favorites]
@y2karl
>> All I know now is over on r/metafiltermeta more than one person reports asking if a mod can read MeMails in real life and got a hell yeah.
That's... all you know. All you know. Sounds like there's not much at all for anyone to know. But with that being all you did know, you decided to run with that. Huh. Sounds like some idle speculation that got backed up by another internet rando and you decide it to be such strong fact that it warranted dragging someone's name through the mud? The name of someone who's not perfect and with whom I don't always personally agree but who shows up to his job day in and day out and frequently having to deal with heaps of crappy human behavior. But... two people believing a thing to be true without being able to demonstrate that it's true, makes it true? Believe everything you read online?
>> In real life but not in pixels on a screen I have dealt with Brandon before in the past and I will never trust him again.
You don't have to trust him, and also you don't have to make shit up to get other people to believe and behave in the same way you choose to. I mean, if there's solid evidence for the capability for him or anyone else to read other users' mails, please do share it and share it widely to support the suggestion that he/they shouldn't be trusted. But if you're going to do that without evidence, I'm not sure it's much different than a politician saying the reason we should believe his assertions that DEI initiatives cause plane crashes is because he has Common Sense.
>> Here he called the wahbulance in the wee hours and dragged every other mod in for back up.
Frankly that sounds like someone trying to do his job and be accountable while doing it. Who are you accountable to, and what's your job? Is your job to manufacture implausible scenarios and shit them into the communal pool with the hope to make others feel as poorly about it as you apparently do? If so, you've done a good job at that.
>> This is not a trust building exercise. One thing we have in common is we both can be highly labile. I want no more part of this.
Clearly. And way to do a solid for Metafilter: manufacture a lie to sow distrust in others to match your own.
>> I still think we are doomed as a nonprofit because this playing make me right by make you wrong is no way to run a railroad.
Remarkable to see that written by someone who's doing exactly that.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 8:24 PM on February 1 [8 favorites]
>> All I know now is over on r/metafiltermeta more than one person reports asking if a mod can read MeMails in real life and got a hell yeah.
That's... all you know. All you know. Sounds like there's not much at all for anyone to know. But with that being all you did know, you decided to run with that. Huh. Sounds like some idle speculation that got backed up by another internet rando and you decide it to be such strong fact that it warranted dragging someone's name through the mud? The name of someone who's not perfect and with whom I don't always personally agree but who shows up to his job day in and day out and frequently having to deal with heaps of crappy human behavior. But... two people believing a thing to be true without being able to demonstrate that it's true, makes it true? Believe everything you read online?
>> In real life but not in pixels on a screen I have dealt with Brandon before in the past and I will never trust him again.
You don't have to trust him, and also you don't have to make shit up to get other people to believe and behave in the same way you choose to. I mean, if there's solid evidence for the capability for him or anyone else to read other users' mails, please do share it and share it widely to support the suggestion that he/they shouldn't be trusted. But if you're going to do that without evidence, I'm not sure it's much different than a politician saying the reason we should believe his assertions that DEI initiatives cause plane crashes is because he has Common Sense.
>> Here he called the wahbulance in the wee hours and dragged every other mod in for back up.
Frankly that sounds like someone trying to do his job and be accountable while doing it. Who are you accountable to, and what's your job? Is your job to manufacture implausible scenarios and shit them into the communal pool with the hope to make others feel as poorly about it as you apparently do? If so, you've done a good job at that.
>> This is not a trust building exercise. One thing we have in common is we both can be highly labile. I want no more part of this.
Clearly. And way to do a solid for Metafilter: manufacture a lie to sow distrust in others to match your own.
>> I still think we are doomed as a nonprofit because this playing make me right by make you wrong is no way to run a railroad.
Remarkable to see that written by someone who's doing exactly that.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 8:24 PM on February 1 [8 favorites]
Hi again. While MeTa typically has looser guidelines, it would be better for the thread if folks avoid focusing on the specifics of a particular fellow member and stick to the overall concern, re: mods being able to read MeFiMail (which we cannot do and would need developer access to the database to be able to do).
If folks do have proof of this occurring they are encouraged to share that information with the Moderation Oversight Committee via warriorqueen's MeFiMail and/or contact the Interim Board via email at MeFiCoFo@gmail.com.
Posting it to this thread is also an option, but the other two options completely bypass the mods, if there’s some concern with us on this matter.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:45 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
If folks do have proof of this occurring they are encouraged to share that information with the Moderation Oversight Committee via warriorqueen's MeFiMail and/or contact the Interim Board via email at MeFiCoFo@gmail.com.
Posting it to this thread is also an option, but the other two options completely bypass the mods, if there’s some concern with us on this matter.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:45 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
shows up to his job day in and day out and frequently having to deal with heaps of crappy human behavior
posted by phunniemee at 4:22 AM on February 2 [10 favorites]
moderator, noun, a person who moderates an internet forum or online discussion.Yes unfortunately I also frequently have to do my job at my job. If the literal definition and job duties of my job weren't something I was interested in continuing, I would put my energy into seeking alternative employment.
moderate, verb, monitor (an internet forum or online discussion) for inappropriate or offensive content.
posted by phunniemee at 4:22 AM on February 2 [10 favorites]
Remarkable to see that written by someone who's doing exactly that.
C'est la vie, C'est la mort, C'est la peu importe
posted by y2karl at 2:10 PM on February 2 [1 favorite]
C'est la vie, C'est la mort, C'est la peu importe
posted by y2karl at 2:10 PM on February 2 [1 favorite]
"On sort le temps d'une noix, on lui apprend à courir :et le temps retourne dans sa coquille"
posted by clavdivs at 6:57 PM on February 2
posted by clavdivs at 6:57 PM on February 2
Wow, y'all. You've been harping about wanting absolute transparency for the site, you receive it, and then you turn around and throw a fit about it saying it's inappropriate?
Given those demands for transparency, it's not just reasonable, but necessary that wild accusations that are pretty obviously impossible should be very blatantly highlighted and discussed in a very visible way - because anything else would have just created MORE nonsense accusations.
It does not matter the cause of the wild accusations. Really, a NORMAL response on any other site to those accusations, given how ridiculous they are, would have been to simply delete them and move on - but the mods here aren't ALLOWED to respond in normal ways anymore, due to the attempts to cater to all the micromanaging special snowflakes.
And this is EXACTLY what has reduced the usage of the site. THIS BEHAVIOR is the problem. The entitlement, the ridiculous reactions, and the pandering to the nonsense.
This isn't even too many cooks anymore. This is permitting the damn broccoli to decide whether or not it wants PLANTED, let alone watered, picked, cooked or eaten... and of course it can't possibly be on the same plate as cauliflower and chicken.
posted by stormyteal at 9:26 PM on February 2 [16 favorites]
Given those demands for transparency, it's not just reasonable, but necessary that wild accusations that are pretty obviously impossible should be very blatantly highlighted and discussed in a very visible way - because anything else would have just created MORE nonsense accusations.
It does not matter the cause of the wild accusations. Really, a NORMAL response on any other site to those accusations, given how ridiculous they are, would have been to simply delete them and move on - but the mods here aren't ALLOWED to respond in normal ways anymore, due to the attempts to cater to all the micromanaging special snowflakes.
And this is EXACTLY what has reduced the usage of the site. THIS BEHAVIOR is the problem. The entitlement, the ridiculous reactions, and the pandering to the nonsense.
This isn't even too many cooks anymore. This is permitting the damn broccoli to decide whether or not it wants PLANTED, let alone watered, picked, cooked or eaten... and of course it can't possibly be on the same plate as cauliflower and chicken.
posted by stormyteal at 9:26 PM on February 2 [16 favorites]
It does not matter the cause of the wild accusations. Really, a NORMAL response on any other site to those accusations, given how ridiculous they are, would have been to simply delete them and move on
I don't think it is at all a normal response to a serious accusation to just delete the accusation.
I don't think there's any site where that would reduce tension rather than increase it. Even if there was, Metafilter has a whole bunch of back channels (2 subreddits, 1 mastodon server, one or more slack channels). It's not possible for the mods to ignore or suppress issues: they're discussed on the back channels and then spread all over multiple threads on the site itself.
Maybe it needed new thread and maybe it didn't, but discussing the issue in the open was the right thing to do.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:31 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
I don't think it is at all a normal response to a serious accusation to just delete the accusation.
I don't think there's any site where that would reduce tension rather than increase it. Even if there was, Metafilter has a whole bunch of back channels (2 subreddits, 1 mastodon server, one or more slack channels). It's not possible for the mods to ignore or suppress issues: they're discussed on the back channels and then spread all over multiple threads on the site itself.
Maybe it needed new thread and maybe it didn't, but discussing the issue in the open was the right thing to do.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:31 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
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If other folks believe that moderator’s do have this ability, please give examples and site any instances of this happening, thank you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:48 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]