[MeFi Site Update] October 16th October 16, 2024 1:49 PM Subscribe
Hi there!
Welcome to this month’s Site Update!
You can find the last update here.
Profit & Loss
– You can find this month's P&L report here. The previous P&L reports are here.
Admin
– You can read the latest updates about the MetaFilter Community Foundation here.
– We are still going over adjustments to the Guidelines and Content Policy based on the feedback from members. So far we’re planning on expanding guidelines specific to each subsite and we’ll share a draft of these changes on a separate Meta post once it is ready.
Fundraising
– We have raised $11,959.00 in one time contributions and $340.00 in new Subscriptions. These contributions are a huge lift and we’ll work with the Community Foundation to put that extra revenue to good use.
We’ll wrap the fundraising by the end of this month with the release of the new site’s MVP, the MeFi Cookbook, the Pet Tax wall, the AMA Podcast and a special Halloween Virtual Gala.
Tech
– Early access to the new site is delayed due to some issues with the new host service. kirkaracha is working as we speak to fix it and we hope to have it ready later this week.
– Fixed geolocation bug with IRL that was blocking posting.
– Removed time limit on Projects posts.
BIPOC Advisory Board
– Thyme and I will resume our work with the BIPOC Board this month as the previous meeting was canceled. Next meeting is scheduled for this Saturday, October 21st. Once the meeting happens we’ll report back on our plan to get back on track with the minutes and the cadence of the work with the BIPOC Board.
If you have any questions or feedback not related to this particular update, please Contact Us instead. If you want to discuss a particular subject not covered here with the community, you’re welcome to open a separate MetaTalk thread for it.
Welcome to this month’s Site Update!
You can find the last update here.
Profit & Loss
– You can find this month's P&L report here. The previous P&L reports are here.
Admin
– You can read the latest updates about the MetaFilter Community Foundation here.
– We are still going over adjustments to the Guidelines and Content Policy based on the feedback from members. So far we’re planning on expanding guidelines specific to each subsite and we’ll share a draft of these changes on a separate Meta post once it is ready.
Fundraising
– We have raised $11,959.00 in one time contributions and $340.00 in new Subscriptions. These contributions are a huge lift and we’ll work with the Community Foundation to put that extra revenue to good use.
We’ll wrap the fundraising by the end of this month with the release of the new site’s MVP, the MeFi Cookbook, the Pet Tax wall, the AMA Podcast and a special Halloween Virtual Gala.
Tech
– Early access to the new site is delayed due to some issues with the new host service. kirkaracha is working as we speak to fix it and we hope to have it ready later this week.
– Fixed geolocation bug with IRL that was blocking posting.
– Removed time limit on Projects posts.
BIPOC Advisory Board
– Thyme and I will resume our work with the BIPOC Board this month as the previous meeting was canceled. Next meeting is scheduled for this Saturday, October 21st. Once the meeting happens we’ll report back on our plan to get back on track with the minutes and the cadence of the work with the BIPOC Board.
If you have any questions or feedback not related to this particular update, please Contact Us instead. If you want to discuss a particular subject not covered here with the community, you’re welcome to open a separate MetaTalk thread for it.
There is a MeFi cookbook project? Not sure how I missed that! I'd love to help with layout design/type design/graphics and editing!
posted by yueliang at 11:47 AM on October 17 [2 favorites]
posted by yueliang at 11:47 AM on October 17 [2 favorites]
Thank you, yueliang, I'll ping you separately and you and anyone can still use this form to share your recipes for the cookbook.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:57 AM on October 17
posted by loup (staff) at 11:57 AM on October 17
Great work, everyone! Immensely proud to be a part of this community!
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 4:16 PM on October 17 [2 favorites]
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 4:16 PM on October 17 [2 favorites]
Isn't this the most recent update about the community foundation?
MeFiCoFo update
posted by freethefeet at 9:59 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]
MeFiCoFo update
posted by freethefeet at 9:59 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]
Thanks for the update, loup.
What time limit on projects posts?
posted by mpark at 10:28 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]
What time limit on projects posts?
posted by mpark at 10:28 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]
How do we make feature-pony requests for the new site?
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 2:15 AM on October 18
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 2:15 AM on October 18
What time limit on projects posts?
Before, you had to wait one month before posting a second thread. We have now lifted the limit entirely.
How do we make feature-pony requests for the new site?
Short answer: Please hold for now.
Long answer: For now, our main goal is to recreate every subsite as close to the original as possible. When we release the new site's MVP for testing we'll start taking bug reports and we'll work on fixing them so we will not be implementing new features until this phase is done.
posted by loup (staff) at 8:30 AM on October 18 [1 favorite]
Before, you had to wait one month before posting a second thread. We have now lifted the limit entirely.
How do we make feature-pony requests for the new site?
Short answer: Please hold for now.
Long answer: For now, our main goal is to recreate every subsite as close to the original as possible. When we release the new site's MVP for testing we'll start taking bug reports and we'll work on fixing them so we will not be implementing new features until this phase is done.
posted by loup (staff) at 8:30 AM on October 18 [1 favorite]
Thanks, loup. Might want to update the "Add Project" page: "You can submit one Project post per month"
posted by mpark at 9:15 AM on October 18
posted by mpark at 9:15 AM on October 18
Yup, on it.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:27 AM on October 18 [2 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 11:27 AM on October 18 [2 favorites]
I'm working with the web host for the staging site to resolve some issues with DNS and database connectivity.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 11:26 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 11:26 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]
Good news, we are only haunted by 1 ghost. Bad news; I'm very lonely
posted by A_Ghost_User at 8:21 PM on October 21 [14 favorites]
posted by A_Ghost_User at 8:21 PM on October 21 [14 favorites]
DNS and database issues resolved.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 12:10 AM on October 22 [2 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 12:10 AM on October 22 [2 favorites]
Any update on the Virtual Halloween Gala?
posted by bowbeacon at 11:57 AM on October 24 [1 favorite]
posted by bowbeacon at 11:57 AM on October 24 [1 favorite]
Yup, I'm making a post for the Gala today.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:40 AM on October 25 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 9:40 AM on October 25 [1 favorite]
Are you planning to actually post it?
This comment is honestly so ignorant and rude I am shocked it's been allowed to stand. Moggies, your cradle-of-life privilege is showing and it is not a good look. Earth is not 👏 the center 👏 of the universe 👏 bro. Clearly whatever planet loup lives on their rotational duration is not the same as yours. Please be respectful of other users' experience of solar time and consider that before making another post. Flagged.
posted by phunniemee at 2:52 PM on October 28 [31 favorites]
This comment is honestly so ignorant and rude I am shocked it's been allowed to stand. Moggies, your cradle-of-life privilege is showing and it is not a good look. Earth is not 👏 the center 👏 of the universe 👏 bro. Clearly whatever planet loup lives on their rotational duration is not the same as yours. Please be respectful of other users' experience of solar time and consider that before making another post. Flagged.
posted by phunniemee at 2:52 PM on October 28 [31 favorites]
Earth is not 👏 the center 👏 of the universe 👏 bro
Listen, I'm not one to dogpile on the mods, who I think are overall doing a good job in tough circumstances, but also I think that asking for a status update after two days isn't beyond the pale, and I don't think there's any need to break out the clap-hands here like nobody was paying attention.
posted by whir at 7:04 PM on October 28 [2 favorites]
Listen, I'm not one to dogpile on the mods, who I think are overall doing a good job in tough circumstances, but also I think that asking for a status update after two days isn't beyond the pale, and I don't think there's any need to break out the clap-hands here like nobody was paying attention.
posted by whir at 7:04 PM on October 28 [2 favorites]
Sometimes I'm reading a Tumblr post that seems nonsensical, until I notice the URL is "one-time-i-dreamt" which provides me sudden context. This happens on Metafilter as well, but sometimes it takes my brain a second to register that the username is meant to be pronounced "funny me" and then I go "ohhhhhhh."
Anyway, I'm sure the consequences of accidentally taking a phunniemee comment inappropriately seriously are extremely dire and I'd like to go on record as saying I've definitely never done that. Promise.
posted by brook horse at 8:00 PM on October 28 [10 favorites]
Anyway, I'm sure the consequences of accidentally taking a phunniemee comment inappropriately seriously are extremely dire and I'd like to go on record as saying I've definitely never done that. Promise.
posted by brook horse at 8:00 PM on October 28 [10 favorites]
If the ansible link to loup's planet ever re-phases, it would be good to know what's happening with access to the new site. It was "hoped" to be ready later in the week of October 16th, and apparently the DNS issues were resolved.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:12 AM on October 29 [7 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:12 AM on October 29 [7 favorites]
Nothing is ever as well-attended as a party announced on 48 hours notice.
posted by bowbeacon at 6:33 AM on October 29 [8 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 6:33 AM on October 29 [8 favorites]
there are concepts of a party
posted by bowmaniac at 6:38 AM on October 29 [14 favorites]
posted by bowmaniac at 6:38 AM on October 29 [14 favorites]
Honestly, I'm not even mad anymore. I'm just impressed.
posted by bowbeacon at 10:40 AM on October 29 [2 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 10:40 AM on October 29 [2 favorites]
loup's pronouns are they/them.
posted by JanetLand at 12:47 PM on October 29 [5 favorites]
posted by JanetLand at 12:47 PM on October 29 [5 favorites]
Loup’s adverbs are later/never.
I agree with basically all of the critiques of the mods/administration, but could you not with this? I don't think that telling people they need to do a better job is harassment, but this kind of is.
posted by dusty potato at 12:57 PM on October 29 [14 favorites]
I agree with basically all of the critiques of the mods/administration, but could you not with this? I don't think that telling people they need to do a better job is harassment, but this kind of is.
posted by dusty potato at 12:57 PM on October 29 [14 favorites]
flag it, maybe that'll draw them out
posted by phunniemee at 1:01 PM on October 29 [10 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 1:01 PM on October 29 [10 favorites]
I don't feel that when you are frustrated at someone it's okay to just reach for some part of their identity as fodder. I think this site has been mismanaged to an almost comical extent, but personally at the end of the day my priority is always going to be other queer people's safety and dignity, moreso than holding people accountable for the health of a fast-fading web community.
posted by dusty potato at 2:12 PM on October 29 [11 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 2:12 PM on October 29 [11 favorites]
maybe it would help if we subpoenaed the information on the Virtual Halloween Gala?
posted by bowmaniac at 2:43 PM on October 29 [7 favorites]
posted by bowmaniac at 2:43 PM on October 29 [7 favorites]
We should shift the focus away from the specific staff member and refer to the person in question as "A Mod" instead.
posted by Diskeater at 3:08 PM on October 29 [10 favorites]
posted by Diskeater at 3:08 PM on October 29 [10 favorites]
not just everyday big moggies: "I somehow missed whatever this subpoena business was about… anyone willing to catch me up? Sounds exciting."
In the September update, people were taking the admin to task for always being late on their updates, and someone commented this in admin's defense:
"Y'all are fixating on "weekly fundraiser updates" as if it's the only task on staff's plate, or if it's the highest priority task and everything else should come second.
Off the top of my head, I can think of a ton of things that online community managers regularly have to prioritize that most community members aren't even aware are happening behind the scenes:
- Subpoenas from law enforcement or discovery in lawsuits..."
So that's become a bit of a meme.
posted by Bugbread at 4:29 PM on October 29 [5 favorites]
In the September update, people were taking the admin to task for always being late on their updates, and someone commented this in admin's defense:
"Y'all are fixating on "weekly fundraiser updates" as if it's the only task on staff's plate, or if it's the highest priority task and everything else should come second.
Off the top of my head, I can think of a ton of things that online community managers regularly have to prioritize that most community members aren't even aware are happening behind the scenes:
- Subpoenas from law enforcement or discovery in lawsuits..."
So that's become a bit of a meme.
posted by Bugbread at 4:29 PM on October 29 [5 favorites]
We’ll wrap the fundraising by the end of this month with the release of the new site’s MVP, the MeFi Cookbook, the Pet Tax wall, the AMA Podcast and a special Halloween Virtual Gala.
So, we have about 48 hours left on this. What are the odds?
posted by bowbeacon at 5:19 PM on October 29 [5 favorites]
So, we have about 48 hours left on this. What are the odds?
posted by bowbeacon at 5:19 PM on October 29 [5 favorites]
did... did ANY of those things happen yet? AFAIK, no, but I would be happy to be shown wrong....
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:52 PM on October 29 [1 favorite]
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:52 PM on October 29 [1 favorite]
The Pet Wall is definitely mostly done, since that’s why Loup couldn’t post updates last month.
posted by bowbeacon at 5:54 PM on October 29 [2 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 5:54 PM on October 29 [2 favorites]
I agree with basically all of the critiques of the mods/administration, but could you not with this? I don't think that telling people they need to do a better job is harassment, but this kind of is.
it's extremely funny though
posted by Sebmojo at 6:15 PM on October 29 [3 favorites]
it's extremely funny though
posted by Sebmojo at 6:15 PM on October 29 [3 favorites]
snofoam: "Loup’s adverbs are later/never."
Gross to see people who'd normally call pronoun jokes shitty and bigoted post (and favorite) something like this the moment they feel personally annoyed by an NB person. And over something as mundane as "not being responsive enough in site updates."
posted by Rhaomi at 6:29 PM on October 29 [16 favorites]
Gross to see people who'd normally call pronoun jokes shitty and bigoted post (and favorite) something like this the moment they feel personally annoyed by an NB person. And over something as mundane as "not being responsive enough in site updates."
posted by Rhaomi at 6:29 PM on October 29 [16 favorites]
I thought it in the vein of WHAT R UR ADJECTIVES but YMM understandably V.
posted by brook horse at 6:42 PM on October 29 [2 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 6:42 PM on October 29 [2 favorites]
Maybe I am mistaken, but is there not an event in 48 hours for Halloween? How can people participate, or donate or whatever, if the person paid to announce the event doesn't? It's not unreasonable to expect that.
posted by CtrlAltD at 7:00 PM on October 29 [2 favorites]
posted by CtrlAltD at 7:00 PM on October 29 [2 favorites]
And over something as mundane as "not being responsive enough in site updates."
Point of order, what's annoying people is loup repeatedly, routinely, for months not being as responsive as they say they are going to be. Particularly about fundraising initiatives. Repeatedly. Literally stop committing if you are unable to keep a commitment.
I detest Metatalk it is a neverending source of burnout.
posted by phunniemee at 7:06 PM on October 29 [14 favorites]
Point of order, what's annoying people is loup repeatedly, routinely, for months not being as responsive as they say they are going to be. Particularly about fundraising initiatives. Repeatedly. Literally stop committing if you are unable to keep a commitment.
I detest Metatalk it is a neverending source of burnout.
posted by phunniemee at 7:06 PM on October 29 [14 favorites]
Literally stop committing if you are unable to keep a commitment.
I don't understand why they even stay here.
posted by jgirl at 7:52 AM on October 30 [2 favorites]
I don't understand why they even stay here.
posted by jgirl at 7:52 AM on October 30 [2 favorites]
I don't understand why they even stay here.
Do they, though?
posted by bowbeacon at 7:53 AM on October 30 [1 favorite]
Do they, though?
posted by bowbeacon at 7:53 AM on October 30 [1 favorite]
Bad news for fans of hauntings. Sounds like our local ghost may have been banned.
posted by umber vowel at 11:09 AM on October 30 [2 favorites]
posted by umber vowel at 11:09 AM on October 30 [2 favorites]
Thank you for this update.
When I think about the health of the site, I think about the community and levels of engagement as much as I think about dollars. Along those lines, it would be great to have a brief community engagement report, similar to the P&L, containing things like number of daily site visitors, number of active members, posts/comments on the various subsites, etc. I'm not sure what exactly the right metrics are, but the goal would be a quick snapshot of the vitality of the community.
Has something like that been considered in the past? I haven't been following Meta regularly, so I apologize if this has already been considered and dismissed.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 11:18 AM on October 30 [3 favorites]
When I think about the health of the site, I think about the community and levels of engagement as much as I think about dollars. Along those lines, it would be great to have a brief community engagement report, similar to the P&L, containing things like number of daily site visitors, number of active members, posts/comments on the various subsites, etc. I'm not sure what exactly the right metrics are, but the goal would be a quick snapshot of the vitality of the community.
Has something like that been considered in the past? I haven't been following Meta regularly, so I apologize if this has already been considered and dismissed.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 11:18 AM on October 30 [3 favorites]
In all seriousness, if you haven't been reading Meta for a while, you may not realize that these comments are explicitly not read by the staff, so you have to use the contact form.
posted by bowbeacon at 11:53 AM on October 30 [2 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 11:53 AM on October 30 [2 favorites]
Oh shoot no that's not it. We forgot to say #pleaseanswer
posted by phunniemee at 11:58 AM on October 30 [7 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 11:58 AM on October 30 [7 favorites]
it would be great to have a brief community engagement report, similar to the P&L, containing things like number of daily site visitors, number of active members, posts/comments on the various subsites, etc.
Not quite what you want but there is the (unofficial) Metafilter Activity Stats page.
posted by googly at 12:20 PM on October 30 [6 favorites]
Not quite what you want but there is the (unofficial) Metafilter Activity Stats page.
posted by googly at 12:20 PM on October 30 [6 favorites]
Thanks, googly, that pretty much covers it.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 12:42 PM on October 30 [2 favorites]
posted by Winnie the Proust at 12:42 PM on October 30 [2 favorites]
Addressing a few comment above:
“it would be good to know what's happening with access to the new site. It was "hoped" to be ready later in the week of October 16th, and apparently the DNS issues were resolved.”
For full context, those DNS issues were resolved and then others popped, kirkaracha has been tackling them and monitoring them. As soon as we are certain we are good to go we’ll share access to the new site for testing.
“it would be great to have a brief community engagement report”
Yes, this is something I also want to have and have been having conversations with the team about the Matomo data we have.
“The Pet Wall is definitely mostly done”
Yes, it is, but I’m still ironing out the printing and shipping.
More details on the fundraiser and remaining activities to come, but for now, let me give you some context regarding the Gala post.
I want to sincerely apologize regarding the Gala post and my handling of the situation. I made that comment on Friday morning before my shift (we recently moved my friday shifts to decrease mod gaps) and then came online later that day to catch up with the last Meta, follow up on a couple of potential projects we are discussing with specific members to us the contribution budget we have set aside and running number for the fundraiser… By the end of my shift I left and did not realize I had entirely forgotten about the Gala post. What began as an oversight evolved into a more complex issue (at least for me) over several days. I was occupied with other responsibilities including following up on projects that might finally put our member contribution budget to use, and when I finally returned to the thread on Tuesday, I found myself in a difficult position: needing to moderate comments that targeted me personally. I regret that my anxiety in this situation led me to freeze rather than take appropriate action. This inaction allowed an unhealthy conversation to develop where problematic comments remained unaddressed.
I acknowledge that what started as an honest mistake created unnecessary frustration for our community and led to other members doing the emotional labor and pushing on the behalf of mods. Making anyone's identity the subject of jokes is unacceptable, and I should have addressed this promptly regardless of my personal involvement.
posted by loup (staff) at 3:01 PM on October 30 [5 favorites]
“it would be good to know what's happening with access to the new site. It was "hoped" to be ready later in the week of October 16th, and apparently the DNS issues were resolved.”
For full context, those DNS issues were resolved and then others popped, kirkaracha has been tackling them and monitoring them. As soon as we are certain we are good to go we’ll share access to the new site for testing.
“it would be great to have a brief community engagement report”
Yes, this is something I also want to have and have been having conversations with the team about the Matomo data we have.
“The Pet Wall is definitely mostly done”
Yes, it is, but I’m still ironing out the printing and shipping.
More details on the fundraiser and remaining activities to come, but for now, let me give you some context regarding the Gala post.
I want to sincerely apologize regarding the Gala post and my handling of the situation. I made that comment on Friday morning before my shift (we recently moved my friday shifts to decrease mod gaps) and then came online later that day to catch up with the last Meta, follow up on a couple of potential projects we are discussing with specific members to us the contribution budget we have set aside and running number for the fundraiser… By the end of my shift I left and did not realize I had entirely forgotten about the Gala post. What began as an oversight evolved into a more complex issue (at least for me) over several days. I was occupied with other responsibilities including following up on projects that might finally put our member contribution budget to use, and when I finally returned to the thread on Tuesday, I found myself in a difficult position: needing to moderate comments that targeted me personally. I regret that my anxiety in this situation led me to freeze rather than take appropriate action. This inaction allowed an unhealthy conversation to develop where problematic comments remained unaddressed.
I acknowledge that what started as an honest mistake created unnecessary frustration for our community and led to other members doing the emotional labor and pushing on the behalf of mods. Making anyone's identity the subject of jokes is unacceptable, and I should have addressed this promptly regardless of my personal involvement.
posted by loup (staff) at 3:01 PM on October 30 [5 favorites]
Thank you for apologizing to the community.
However, sincere apologies also involve an action plan to change the behavior that led to the apology being needed in the first place. This is far from the first time that we've seen promises to do things timely that haven't come through, and it's pretty frustrating to see the ongoing pattern here.
I hope you are able to talk with other members of the mod team to figure out ways for Metafilter staff to better follow through on their commitments to the community.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:25 PM on October 30 [4 favorites]
However, sincere apologies also involve an action plan to change the behavior that led to the apology being needed in the first place. This is far from the first time that we've seen promises to do things timely that haven't come through, and it's pretty frustrating to see the ongoing pattern here.
I hope you are able to talk with other members of the mod team to figure out ways for Metafilter staff to better follow through on their commitments to the community.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:25 PM on October 30 [4 favorites]
Also, nobody (none of the commenters, none of the other mods) pinged you over the past 5 days to remind you that you forgot to do something where time was of the essence? That's just...so incredibly odd. Like, I understand not being on-call, but even at jobs I've done where nobody was on-call, if I forgot something major that was also time-sensitive, somebody would call me up and ask about it, if only to say "Hey, Bugbread, you forgot to send that email that needs to be sent. Want me to send it instead?" But in this case, just...nothing? None of the other mods read the thread in the past 5 days and got in touch with you, or decided to do the Gala post on your behalf?
That's such a strange work dynamic. I don't think I've ever worked at a workplace where things were that lax.
posted by Bugbread at 3:44 PM on October 30 [5 favorites]
That's such a strange work dynamic. I don't think I've ever worked at a workplace where things were that lax.
posted by Bugbread at 3:44 PM on October 30 [5 favorites]
This is a serious question and I’m hoping you’ll be able to shed some light on this strange dynamic, because it honestly doesn’t seem to be working for anyone.
I vaguely recall that it's related to some consensus/decision that was Reached after many heated MeTas some years ago, but as guidelines are either never compiled or are scattered in various FAQs and MeTas across the site, it's hard to say.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:46 PM on October 30 [1 favorite]
I vaguely recall that it's related to some consensus/decision that was Reached after many heated MeTas some years ago, but as guidelines are either never compiled or are scattered in various FAQs and MeTas across the site, it's hard to say.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:46 PM on October 30 [1 favorite]
(Just to be clear here: while it may sound like I'm being critical of you here, Loup, I'm not. I'm also not being supportive. It just appears to be a workplace atmosphere which is very different from anything I've encountered, but if that's the way it is, then that's the way it is. I'm not paying for a service, so I'm not upset, and I'm not getting service, so I'm not happy. Just neutrally surprised.)
posted by Bugbread at 3:47 PM on October 30 [3 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 3:47 PM on October 30 [3 favorites]
I don’t think a single thing about the fundraiser happened as planned. The fundraiser was supposed to last from mid-August through September. Then it was extended through October (without acknowledgement or explanation) and the virtual gala became the virtual Halloween gala. Now we’re at the end of October, none of the events have happened, and more details are set “to come” a month after everything was supposed to end.
This isn’t the first time something like this has happened but I’m not management and I don’t want to pile on.
Do the things you say you’re going to do, when you say you’re going to do them.
posted by Diskeater at 4:24 PM on October 30 [15 favorites]
This isn’t the first time something like this has happened but I’m not management and I don’t want to pile on.
Do the things you say you’re going to do, when you say you’re going to do them.
posted by Diskeater at 4:24 PM on October 30 [15 favorites]
I am so confused about the pet tax wall. My understanding of this, please correct me, is that it's a bunch of random photos of other people's pets that are being collaged into a poster and offered for sale. Is this accurate? Is there a market for this? I love animals, I love many mefites, and I know many mefites' animals both in person and via instagram. I am a prime demographic for a fundraising effort that involves Metafilter pets, and I still have zero interest in having them on a poster.
I don't understand this at all as a revenue generator, especially as it's consumed 2 months mod time in work and effort and has taken priority over other fundraising efforts on the site.
posted by phunniemee at 5:11 PM on October 30 [31 favorites]
I don't understand this at all as a revenue generator, especially as it's consumed 2 months mod time in work and effort and has taken priority over other fundraising efforts on the site.
posted by phunniemee at 5:11 PM on October 30 [31 favorites]
That is also my understanding, and I share your confusion.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:51 PM on October 30 [7 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:51 PM on October 30 [7 favorites]
I found myself in a difficult position: needing to moderate comments that targeted me personally
It sounds like you've had an awful few days, and I hope things improve for you. This remark, however, is a big red flag for me. You should never be in that position. Firstly because mods shouldn't be targeted personally, but also because that's a fundamental conflict of interest. This isn't the only sign I've noticed lately that mods' training seems to have a huge deficiency. There are plenty of rules around here these days, but sadly little evidence I can see of basic governance. MeFi is on the cusp of a huge change. Keeping members' trust during that change will be crucial. Because of the organic way the site has evolved, I can see why "pick the right person and let them work it out" became the default (along with Matt making a great choice for the first mod seeming to justify that approach), but it's clearly not working now. I can see evidence that mods are trained in dealing with racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and other unacceptable behaviour (which of course I applaud), but the basics seem to be neglected.
Pick good people and support them with the necessary resources, including training them in how to keep a fractious* community together in a fair, understanding and kind way. I'd like to see "egalitarian" added to that approach, but I accept that reasonable minds might disagree.
* Not all the time, and outside of MetaTalk and posts about politics and/or the Levant, maybe not even that much of the time, but you all know what I mean.
posted by GeckoDundee at 3:37 AM on October 31
It sounds like you've had an awful few days, and I hope things improve for you. This remark, however, is a big red flag for me. You should never be in that position. Firstly because mods shouldn't be targeted personally, but also because that's a fundamental conflict of interest. This isn't the only sign I've noticed lately that mods' training seems to have a huge deficiency. There are plenty of rules around here these days, but sadly little evidence I can see of basic governance. MeFi is on the cusp of a huge change. Keeping members' trust during that change will be crucial. Because of the organic way the site has evolved, I can see why "pick the right person and let them work it out" became the default (along with Matt making a great choice for the first mod seeming to justify that approach), but it's clearly not working now. I can see evidence that mods are trained in dealing with racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and other unacceptable behaviour (which of course I applaud), but the basics seem to be neglected.
Pick good people and support them with the necessary resources, including training them in how to keep a fractious* community together in a fair, understanding and kind way. I'd like to see "egalitarian" added to that approach, but I accept that reasonable minds might disagree.
* Not all the time, and outside of MetaTalk and posts about politics and/or the Levant, maybe not even that much of the time, but you all know what I mean.
posted by GeckoDundee at 3:37 AM on October 31
If printing and shipping the pet wall is taking up any amount of time, have you considered just uploading it to RedBubble or something and letting them handle it?
posted by bowbeacon at 4:01 AM on October 31 [1 favorite]
posted by bowbeacon at 4:01 AM on October 31 [1 favorite]
Like I said, I'm not even mad. Just impressed. Making an announcement 2 weeks ago that you had to do roughly the easiest things in the world (talk for 30 minutes, put images into a Canva template, and schedule a zoom meeting) and then not doing them, all the while using this as a fundraising effort...it's just almost too perfect.
posted by bowbeacon at 6:46 AM on October 31 [2 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 6:46 AM on October 31 [2 favorites]
Personal request that we try to keep comments and criticisms constructive.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:00 AM on October 31 [4 favorites]
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:00 AM on October 31 [4 favorites]
I can't speak for Winnie, but remember how we used to talk about the nature of pile-ons--where even if individual comments were themselves innocuous, the number and velocity of them provided an impact that no one commenter may have intended? These threads feel awfully heavy these days, as everyone gets their constructive criticism in.
posted by mittens at 7:22 AM on October 31 [2 favorites]
posted by mittens at 7:22 AM on October 31 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Hey all, here’s a note on one aspect of this post.
Please realize that mocking someone’s pronouns goes against the values of the site and community. No harm may have been intended, but let’s avoid doing that at all, anywhere on the site, as harm may still be caused.
That particular comment has been removed but responses to or about it have been left up for context. The user has been given the day off.
We take attacks on members seriously and want to communicate that no one on the site should have to deal with being attacked at all.
It’s perfectly fine to criticize a moderator or the team for their actions or inactions, but there’s no need to make it personal. Do not do that or your account may be banned.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:41 AM on October 31 [5 favorites]
Please realize that mocking someone’s pronouns goes against the values of the site and community. No harm may have been intended, but let’s avoid doing that at all, anywhere on the site, as harm may still be caused.
That particular comment has been removed but responses to or about it have been left up for context. The user has been given the day off.
We take attacks on members seriously and want to communicate that no one on the site should have to deal with being attacked at all.
It’s perfectly fine to criticize a moderator or the team for their actions or inactions, but there’s no need to make it personal. Do not do that or your account may be banned.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:41 AM on October 31 [5 favorites]
Winnie, is there anything specific happening that you’d like not to be happening?
I don't like the pile-on criticism of Loup. I understand the frustration. But mocking, snarky criticism of a community member isn't helpful and won't move things forward. I won't bother quoting examples. Just read through the post and you'll see plenty. There should be a way to fix things that doesn't involve this kind of repeated public criticism. It's hard when no one is in charge and everything is done by committee, so I don't know what the right way is, but I'm pretty confident that this is the wrong way.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 8:44 AM on October 31 [10 favorites]
I don't like the pile-on criticism of Loup. I understand the frustration. But mocking, snarky criticism of a community member isn't helpful and won't move things forward. I won't bother quoting examples. Just read through the post and you'll see plenty. There should be a way to fix things that doesn't involve this kind of repeated public criticism. It's hard when no one is in charge and everything is done by committee, so I don't know what the right way is, but I'm pretty confident that this is the wrong way.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 8:44 AM on October 31 [10 favorites]
I 100 percent agree with Winnie the Proust. Would you (Plural) says any of those nasty, snarky things to loup's face??
posted by 15L06 at 9:00 AM on October 31 [1 favorite]
posted by 15L06 at 9:00 AM on October 31 [1 favorite]
I would make the comment I made above to their face.
posted by jgirl at 9:04 AM on October 31 [1 favorite]
posted by jgirl at 9:04 AM on October 31 [1 favorite]
Yeah, absolutely I would.
posted by bowbeacon at 9:09 AM on October 31 [2 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 9:09 AM on October 31 [2 favorites]
Anything I type on Metafilter I would say to someone else's face. Which is why I get so chapped about people putting words in my mouth.
Actually I would probably swear more in person, but if you do that here while being critical you get deleted.
posted by phunniemee at 9:11 AM on October 31 [5 favorites]
Actually I would probably swear more in person, but if you do that here while being critical you get deleted.
posted by phunniemee at 9:11 AM on October 31 [5 favorites]
It's hard when no one is in charge and everything is done by committee
I think the issue is that loup is supposed to be in charge. I don't remember the threads in which this was discussed, but I have specifically asked several times over the years what the actual management structure was - run by committee? run by Jessamyn? run by loup? - and it took a long time to get an answer, but if I'm not mistaken loup confirmed it was basically the latter.
And pile-ons are a predictable thing when there is nothing else to steer a discussion, which is something moderators should know how to do - that's what moderation is.
I know repeated public criticism is hard, but I do not think this dynamic is fixable from the member side of things. People are asking for a fairly low bar to be met at this point.
Would you (Plural) says any of those nasty, snarky things to loup's face??
None of us is loup's manager, but "you consistently do things late, or never, and that includes communicating in a timely way about promised things arriving late or never, and you consistently fail to delegate tasks to people who might be more able to get them done, and this is very frustrating to be on the receiving end of and I'm worried it's doing entirely needless damage to the site" is really legit criticism imo.
Would you act this way in your organization? (I say this with a lot of empathy for loup, since I too by nature have abysmal time management abilities combined with totally unfounded optimism that leads me to overpromise and underdeliver, plus an ingrained tendency to think that grandiose gestures like a gala or whatnot will make up for everything. My only solution has been to find work that prioritizes different abilities that I do have; but I did at least learn to recognize and somewhat pre-empt these tendencies, let people know in a timely way that I was way behind no matter how bad it felt to admit it, and learn how to prioritize essentials.)
posted by trig at 9:14 AM on October 31 [16 favorites]
I think the issue is that loup is supposed to be in charge. I don't remember the threads in which this was discussed, but I have specifically asked several times over the years what the actual management structure was - run by committee? run by Jessamyn? run by loup? - and it took a long time to get an answer, but if I'm not mistaken loup confirmed it was basically the latter.
And pile-ons are a predictable thing when there is nothing else to steer a discussion, which is something moderators should know how to do - that's what moderation is.
I know repeated public criticism is hard, but I do not think this dynamic is fixable from the member side of things. People are asking for a fairly low bar to be met at this point.
Would you (Plural) says any of those nasty, snarky things to loup's face??
None of us is loup's manager, but "you consistently do things late, or never, and that includes communicating in a timely way about promised things arriving late or never, and you consistently fail to delegate tasks to people who might be more able to get them done, and this is very frustrating to be on the receiving end of and I'm worried it's doing entirely needless damage to the site" is really legit criticism imo.
Would you act this way in your organization? (I say this with a lot of empathy for loup, since I too by nature have abysmal time management abilities combined with totally unfounded optimism that leads me to overpromise and underdeliver, plus an ingrained tendency to think that grandiose gestures like a gala or whatnot will make up for everything. My only solution has been to find work that prioritizes different abilities that I do have; but I did at least learn to recognize and somewhat pre-empt these tendencies, let people know in a timely way that I was way behind no matter how bad it felt to admit it, and learn how to prioritize essentials.)
posted by trig at 9:14 AM on October 31 [16 favorites]
First off, thank you to anyone who has reached to the mod team in general and to me privately, it means a lot! There's plenty to address from the comments above and I'll do that ASAP but I want to get a few things out first.
Some Quick updates:
– Pet tax wall is ready and I’m making sure the printing and shipping is all set (thank you bowbeacon for the suggestion, I was planning to use Printful, but will look into RedBubble today as well).
– The Cookbook has been sent to a community member for help with design and editing.
– The AMA podcast is scheduled to be recorded November 11. We only got 7 questions in total so we will skip the voting part but those questions are interesting enough to proceed. If you still want to ask anything (yes, anything) drop your questions here.
– The halloween Gala post is up here.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:21 AM on October 31
Some Quick updates:
– Pet tax wall is ready and I’m making sure the printing and shipping is all set (thank you bowbeacon for the suggestion, I was planning to use Printful, but will look into RedBubble today as well).
– The Cookbook has been sent to a community member for help with design and editing.
– The AMA podcast is scheduled to be recorded November 11. We only got 7 questions in total so we will skip the voting part but those questions are interesting enough to proceed. If you still want to ask anything (yes, anything) drop your questions here.
– The halloween Gala post is up here.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:21 AM on October 31
I want to sincerely apologize regarding the Gala post and my handling of the situation. I made that comment on Friday morning before my shift (we recently moved my friday shifts to decrease mod gaps) and then came online later that day to catch up with the last Meta, follow up on a couple of potential projects we are discussing with specific members to us the contribution budget we have set aside and running number for the fundraiser… By the end of my shift I left and did not realize I had entirely forgotten about the Gala post. What began as an oversight evolved into a more complex issue (at least for me) over several days. I was occupied with other responsibilities including following up on projects that might finally put our member contribution budget to use, and when I finally returned to the thread on Tuesday, I found myself in a difficult position: needing to moderate comments that targeted me personally.
How long did it take you to post this? How long do you think it took jessamyn to post this? Why do you never just do something that you say you're going to do when you say you're going to do it?
Do you still wonder why posts are down? Why fundraising is down? Why people are leaving the site?
posted by bowmaniac at 12:19 PM on October 31 [7 favorites]
How long did it take you to post this? How long do you think it took jessamyn to post this? Why do you never just do something that you say you're going to do when you say you're going to do it?
Do you still wonder why posts are down? Why fundraising is down? Why people are leaving the site?
posted by bowmaniac at 12:19 PM on October 31 [7 favorites]
As my spouse would quote, "we're perfectly aligned for the results we're getting."
The mods weren't hired as fundraisers.
Loup wasn't hired to run a business strategically or otherwise.
Jessamyn was clear she only wanted to hold paperwork for a transition period, which has taken longer than I think anyone anticipated.
The result is people are probably not in the job they want or feel expertise in, and that is always stressful. And we all know MetaTalk is exhausting - it's also the main spot for community engagement and so here we are.
I sniped about fundraising in the last thread. I think the effort vs. ROI is really off, and the story I'm telling myself about that is that the last year the mods were criticized for doing too little so this year they tried to do too much. That would fit with the reactive decision-making that has plagued the site for quite a while now.
But learn and move on; there can be more fundraising later if there is a later.
Yes, it's frustrating to watch the slide on the site but it's not just one person. The entire structure is way off kilter at this point. The best activity is to get the MeFiFoCo or whatever it is running so that it can do fundraising and hopefully have enough cold hard cash to hire a ED *and* have that ED paid and have a budget to manage long enough to turn some things around. I know they are doing this but maybe this discussion will help to highlight how urgent it is.
In the meantime, if loup is anxious and exhausted and doesn't have backup, maybe this is something the board can address even if it's just to have someone who can listen. Because that sounds very untenable. Loup, I hope you got your feet under you and if not, I hope you take a bit of space to do that.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:47 PM on October 31 [18 favorites]
The mods weren't hired as fundraisers.
Loup wasn't hired to run a business strategically or otherwise.
Jessamyn was clear she only wanted to hold paperwork for a transition period, which has taken longer than I think anyone anticipated.
The result is people are probably not in the job they want or feel expertise in, and that is always stressful. And we all know MetaTalk is exhausting - it's also the main spot for community engagement and so here we are.
I sniped about fundraising in the last thread. I think the effort vs. ROI is really off, and the story I'm telling myself about that is that the last year the mods were criticized for doing too little so this year they tried to do too much. That would fit with the reactive decision-making that has plagued the site for quite a while now.
But learn and move on; there can be more fundraising later if there is a later.
Yes, it's frustrating to watch the slide on the site but it's not just one person. The entire structure is way off kilter at this point. The best activity is to get the MeFiFoCo or whatever it is running so that it can do fundraising and hopefully have enough cold hard cash to hire a ED *and* have that ED paid and have a budget to manage long enough to turn some things around. I know they are doing this but maybe this discussion will help to highlight how urgent it is.
In the meantime, if loup is anxious and exhausted and doesn't have backup, maybe this is something the board can address even if it's just to have someone who can listen. Because that sounds very untenable. Loup, I hope you got your feet under you and if not, I hope you take a bit of space to do that.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:47 PM on October 31 [18 favorites]
I've been drafting this comment non stop since l posted my last comment. Thank you for waiting. I’ll try to address some of the questions/feedback from this thread and from the messages we’ve gotten privately:
Why are things the way they are? Why does MeFi operate like this?
Since March of 2022 our goal has been to become a fully member-driven site where members have real power over the site’s structure, budget, decision making, etc.
It was clear back then that having all the site and moderation responsibilities sit on one person wasn’t sustainable or even doable (moreover for someone working part time) but I assumed the role under the understanding that this was temporary and would change significantly as we reworked the site’s governance structure.
Unfortunately, we’ve been stuck in this transition period for over two years (due to reasons beyond our control) and this has led to inconsistent communication, timelines being missed and several issues that are beyond evident and frustrating for everyone involved (me included) that has only been intensified by my unfounded optimism that leads to overpromising and underdelivering (thanks trig, it shows how much attention you pay). This is even worse when you factor in that I have been Project Manager for over 10 years (I know, this might sound baffling to many, like, loup? A project WHAT!?).
Now, one of the frustrations I personally share with most people here is knowing that decisions need to be made, structural changes are necessary and urgent and all we got is a lack of clear direction. I hope you understand that this is, whether we like it or not, is currently by design, I alone cannot and will not make decisions on behalf of the member-driven structure we want to achieve and many of the decisions made over the past 2 years have also been made with the goal of keeping the mod team away from further burnout. The only exception to this has been the rebuilt of the site and that decision was made because we finally had the budget, resources and someone who has the expertise, right motivation and undivided attention to do it.
The good news is that the Interim Board is aware of the urgency and is working to get us where we want.
So, what’s the current structure of MeFi?
Currently, Jessamyn is the owner of MetaFilter LLC but I take care of decision making when it comes to daily operations, for more strategic things I will confer with Jessamyn and we'll come to a decision together.
Then we have 2 tech members, one maintaining the old site and another building the new site.
And then there’s the mods, there are 5 of us and we all work on general moderation across all siubsites while having specific assignments (like maintenance of the Bes of MeFi blog, social media account or the BIPPOC Board).
All or most of the admin work is currently done within the mod shifts already assigned to stay within the operational budget we have.
Yeah, but why is loup still here?
You know, I’ve wondered the same in the past couple of months.
Allow me to elaborate: Being in this position for so long with no sight of change has had a toll on me and my ability to do some aspects of my job satisfactorily. It’s even more stressful when I’m used to managing tighter deadlines and projects with budgets and revenue goals in the millions of dollars with tens of stakeholders on a daily basis… but MeFi is an entirely different beast, and one where a lot of it ends up being a one person show.
I felt a lot of momentum and positivity back in June when we were about to announce the rebuilding of the entire site from scratch and we were expecting to have the new entity in place in just a few weeks.
Then, things started going off the rails, a couple of contentious metas happened at the same time that one of our staff members had an accident and that required attention as well. Then, I needed to make the actual announcement meta of the new site and I decided to close the last meta saying “we need to come back to this but this will have to wait” (yes, there’s only so much attention you can pay to everything going on).
Since then, we decided to move on with this year’s fundraiser (it was a no brainer to me, between having no fundraiser and having one that wasn't going to go very well) and wanted to plug that with the incorporation of MeFiCoCo and the release of the new site. As you can see by now, none of these aligned which added extra stress and frustration again and I started to wonder if my involvement is hurting the community more than helping it.
At this particular moment in time, I know I’m still here because I still stand by the decision I’ve made back in 2022 to hold this position until the community can take over. I would have probably stepped down at some point in the past, but transferring these responsibilities to someone else in the middle of the transition would have perpetuated the structural problem we are currently all facing.
Is loup okay?
Yeah, mostly. TBH, I had a full on panic attack this week and was paralyzed. I’ve been dealing with generalized anxiety for years but, thankfully, I have access to proper therapy, a support network, and the support of the MeFi Team, Jessamyn and, most recently, the Interim Board.
This didn’t happen because people were “being mean” or because of the fundraiser itself and I knew that I had dropped the ball on things I said I was going to do. This happened because I knew the impact of my mistakes. I knew this would hurt the community in a way that’s awful, you see, while all I’m trying to do is to put the business that supports the community in a better place, I can't ignore the impact of my actions with the community.
And then I knew how this could easily start the same cycle we’ve seen before: people start voicing their valid frustrations (some of which precede me), and those in turn get mixed with criticism that requires some form of moderation and (regardless of who does the moderation) there’s always the risk that a mod note or deletion will derail the entire thread itself, and then, other members will feel compelled to push back against the criticism (which I appreciate, but at the same time I’m not OK with members doing the emotional labor for something not aimed a them in any way).
What changes can we expect?
Not many, in the immediate term, the limited resources (time/budget), staff burnout and lack of an actual governance structure won’t change overnight. BUT the Interim Board is moving ahead to take over MeFi LLC and I’ll be happy to work with them to see the transition through and hopefully, in few months we’ll finally become the member-driven organization we want to become.
posted by loup (staff) at 2:40 PM on October 31 [14 favorites]
Why are things the way they are? Why does MeFi operate like this?
Since March of 2022 our goal has been to become a fully member-driven site where members have real power over the site’s structure, budget, decision making, etc.
It was clear back then that having all the site and moderation responsibilities sit on one person wasn’t sustainable or even doable (moreover for someone working part time) but I assumed the role under the understanding that this was temporary and would change significantly as we reworked the site’s governance structure.
Unfortunately, we’ve been stuck in this transition period for over two years (due to reasons beyond our control) and this has led to inconsistent communication, timelines being missed and several issues that are beyond evident and frustrating for everyone involved (me included) that has only been intensified by my unfounded optimism that leads to overpromising and underdelivering (thanks trig, it shows how much attention you pay). This is even worse when you factor in that I have been Project Manager for over 10 years (I know, this might sound baffling to many, like, loup? A project WHAT!?).
Now, one of the frustrations I personally share with most people here is knowing that decisions need to be made, structural changes are necessary and urgent and all we got is a lack of clear direction. I hope you understand that this is, whether we like it or not, is currently by design, I alone cannot and will not make decisions on behalf of the member-driven structure we want to achieve and many of the decisions made over the past 2 years have also been made with the goal of keeping the mod team away from further burnout. The only exception to this has been the rebuilt of the site and that decision was made because we finally had the budget, resources and someone who has the expertise, right motivation and undivided attention to do it.
The good news is that the Interim Board is aware of the urgency and is working to get us where we want.
So, what’s the current structure of MeFi?
Currently, Jessamyn is the owner of MetaFilter LLC but I take care of decision making when it comes to daily operations, for more strategic things I will confer with Jessamyn and we'll come to a decision together.
Then we have 2 tech members, one maintaining the old site and another building the new site.
And then there’s the mods, there are 5 of us and we all work on general moderation across all siubsites while having specific assignments (like maintenance of the Bes of MeFi blog, social media account or the BIPPOC Board).
All or most of the admin work is currently done within the mod shifts already assigned to stay within the operational budget we have.
Yeah, but why is loup still here?
You know, I’ve wondered the same in the past couple of months.
Allow me to elaborate: Being in this position for so long with no sight of change has had a toll on me and my ability to do some aspects of my job satisfactorily. It’s even more stressful when I’m used to managing tighter deadlines and projects with budgets and revenue goals in the millions of dollars with tens of stakeholders on a daily basis… but MeFi is an entirely different beast, and one where a lot of it ends up being a one person show.
I felt a lot of momentum and positivity back in June when we were about to announce the rebuilding of the entire site from scratch and we were expecting to have the new entity in place in just a few weeks.
Then, things started going off the rails, a couple of contentious metas happened at the same time that one of our staff members had an accident and that required attention as well. Then, I needed to make the actual announcement meta of the new site and I decided to close the last meta saying “we need to come back to this but this will have to wait” (yes, there’s only so much attention you can pay to everything going on).
Since then, we decided to move on with this year’s fundraiser (it was a no brainer to me, between having no fundraiser and having one that wasn't going to go very well) and wanted to plug that with the incorporation of MeFiCoCo and the release of the new site. As you can see by now, none of these aligned which added extra stress and frustration again and I started to wonder if my involvement is hurting the community more than helping it.
At this particular moment in time, I know I’m still here because I still stand by the decision I’ve made back in 2022 to hold this position until the community can take over. I would have probably stepped down at some point in the past, but transferring these responsibilities to someone else in the middle of the transition would have perpetuated the structural problem we are currently all facing.
Is loup okay?
Yeah, mostly. TBH, I had a full on panic attack this week and was paralyzed. I’ve been dealing with generalized anxiety for years but, thankfully, I have access to proper therapy, a support network, and the support of the MeFi Team, Jessamyn and, most recently, the Interim Board.
This didn’t happen because people were “being mean” or because of the fundraiser itself and I knew that I had dropped the ball on things I said I was going to do. This happened because I knew the impact of my mistakes. I knew this would hurt the community in a way that’s awful, you see, while all I’m trying to do is to put the business that supports the community in a better place, I can't ignore the impact of my actions with the community.
And then I knew how this could easily start the same cycle we’ve seen before: people start voicing their valid frustrations (some of which precede me), and those in turn get mixed with criticism that requires some form of moderation and (regardless of who does the moderation) there’s always the risk that a mod note or deletion will derail the entire thread itself, and then, other members will feel compelled to push back against the criticism (which I appreciate, but at the same time I’m not OK with members doing the emotional labor for something not aimed a them in any way).
What changes can we expect?
Not many, in the immediate term, the limited resources (time/budget), staff burnout and lack of an actual governance structure won’t change overnight. BUT the Interim Board is moving ahead to take over MeFi LLC and I’ll be happy to work with them to see the transition through and hopefully, in few months we’ll finally become the member-driven organization we want to become.
posted by loup (staff) at 2:40 PM on October 31 [14 favorites]
Thanks for the response, loup. I haven't been quite as engaged here lately as I'd like, but I appreciate the updates and news about the transition. I want MetaFilter to keep going, and maybe still be here in another 25 years, so it's good to see the progress. Hope things smooth out for you soon, and that the frustrations of this job don't cause harm that you can't shed eventually with some rest, relaxation, and time doing the things you love. Same to the rest of the mods and site staff.
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:13 PM on October 31 [3 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:13 PM on October 31 [3 favorites]
I don't think it's sustainable or wise to be in a holding pattern until the non-profit and new board take over. I wish people with power would rethink that decision. It's been causing harm and will continue to cause harm. It's not a neutral stance.
posted by lapis at 9:10 PM on October 31 [19 favorites]
posted by lapis at 9:10 PM on October 31 [19 favorites]
Yeah, I don’t understand the explanation that management’s hands are tied until the transition to the nonprofit is complete. If you don’t want to do anything that would go against the wishes of a future community government, then you can start handing over the reins to the community today. Hold elections for volunteer mods and admins. I don’t get why this is impossible just because an LLC happens to own the domain and servers. Reddit is an extremely for-profit company but it still has volunteer mods and community-led subreddits.
I’m sure the nonprofit has some advantages in the long term. But I don’t see why it’s necessary to start resolving the root issues affecting MetaFilter here and now. You have the power! If you don’t want to use it, you can hand it over to someone who does, with or without the formal structure of a nonprofit.
posted by april of time at 10:54 PM on October 31 [5 favorites]
I’m sure the nonprofit has some advantages in the long term. But I don’t see why it’s necessary to start resolving the root issues affecting MetaFilter here and now. You have the power! If you don’t want to use it, you can hand it over to someone who does, with or without the formal structure of a nonprofit.
posted by april of time at 10:54 PM on October 31 [5 favorites]
Would you (Plural) says any of those nasty, snarky things to loup's face??
None of us is loup's manager, but "you consistently do things late, or never, and that includes communicating in a timely way about promised things arriving late or never, and you consistently fail to delegate tasks to people who might be more able to get them done, and this is very frustrating to be on the receiving end of and I'm worried it's doing entirely needless damage to the site" is really legit criticism imo.
the criticism it totally legit, and i think that worded this way, is constructive.
What to me crosses a line is the banter style exchanges above, where several commenters riff off each others "witty" oneliners a la the tasteless pronoun stuff, but not only that.
Reading those makes me feel like i am back at school, hearing the "in-group" shredd an unpopular student all the while staying away from plain insults but nevertheless creating a vibe of "WE don't Like you", including the innocent "why are they still here". Someone above called it harassment. I agree.
I am not writing this to defend loup. I believe criticism stated matter of fact is completly okay.
I deliberated for quite a while if i had the guts and nerve to speak up or even cared enough. After all it is only pixels on the Internet. And i can just not read the stuff. But i did, and loup is a real person. To me it is not right to treat anyone this way, and mostly i write this comment here not for loup but others like me who may also feel this type of pile on is not okay.
posted by 15L06 at 2:41 AM on November 1 [10 favorites]
None of us is loup's manager, but "you consistently do things late, or never, and that includes communicating in a timely way about promised things arriving late or never, and you consistently fail to delegate tasks to people who might be more able to get them done, and this is very frustrating to be on the receiving end of and I'm worried it's doing entirely needless damage to the site" is really legit criticism imo.
the criticism it totally legit, and i think that worded this way, is constructive.
What to me crosses a line is the banter style exchanges above, where several commenters riff off each others "witty" oneliners a la the tasteless pronoun stuff, but not only that.
Reading those makes me feel like i am back at school, hearing the "in-group" shredd an unpopular student all the while staying away from plain insults but nevertheless creating a vibe of "WE don't Like you", including the innocent "why are they still here". Someone above called it harassment. I agree.
I am not writing this to defend loup. I believe criticism stated matter of fact is completly okay.
I deliberated for quite a while if i had the guts and nerve to speak up or even cared enough. After all it is only pixels on the Internet. And i can just not read the stuff. But i did, and loup is a real person. To me it is not right to treat anyone this way, and mostly i write this comment here not for loup but others like me who may also feel this type of pile on is not okay.
posted by 15L06 at 2:41 AM on November 1 [10 favorites]
This unpopular student, they were being paid to go to school?
posted by minsies at 4:23 AM on November 1
posted by minsies at 4:23 AM on November 1
I guess i could have used the example of a colleague at work, or perhaps a service person such as a waiter.
The point for me is not loup's position or competence or lack thereof. It is the attitude shown towards a fellow human being, who is reduced to becoming the butt of jokes.
posted by 15L06 at 4:37 AM on November 1 [1 favorite]
The point for me is not loup's position or competence or lack thereof. It is the attitude shown towards a fellow human being, who is reduced to becoming the butt of jokes.
posted by 15L06 at 4:37 AM on November 1 [1 favorite]
PS even if they student being mocked were paid, and all the observations true, No one should be the target of mocking.
posted by 15L06 at 4:52 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]
posted by 15L06 at 4:52 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]
I worked for a highly incompetent man for many years. He earned four times my salary, and as his direct report i could see his incompetence clearly and at times working for him was a nightmare. He supplied so much fodder for making fun of him.
But yet i felt then and still today that ganging up on someone and make them the butt of jokes is a shitty thing to do.
I think that criticism of loup is legit. But address it to jessamyn, the new board and him privately.
If in posted here in public, keep it factual.
posted by 15L06 at 5:02 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]
But yet i felt then and still today that ganging up on someone and make them the butt of jokes is a shitty thing to do.
I think that criticism of loup is legit. But address it to jessamyn, the new board and him privately.
If in posted here in public, keep it factual.
posted by 15L06 at 5:02 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]
*them
posted by minsies at 5:09 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]
posted by minsies at 5:09 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]
i feel like you're reading what seems to me like gentle ribbing combined with genuine frustration as some sort of lèse-majesté against the mods. it's not a pileon when 4 people all have the same concerns - people are allowed to voice that they, too, are concerned that this keeps happening.
By volume, there seems to be shockingly (given the lack of response!) little contentless vitriol in the thread - apart from the comment regarding pronouns, can you point to anything that crosses a line from "Frustrated but accurate" to "Non-factual"?
posted by sagc at 5:10 AM on November 1 [4 favorites]
By volume, there seems to be shockingly (given the lack of response!) little contentless vitriol in the thread - apart from the comment regarding pronouns, can you point to anything that crosses a line from "Frustrated but accurate" to "Non-factual"?
posted by sagc at 5:10 AM on November 1 [4 favorites]
Hi, just popping in as a regular user.
It would probably be more helpful if folks (meaning everyone) remained focused on what they think isn't working moderation wise and/or suggesting alternatives and improvements instead of asking people to "prove" what they believe they saw. MetaTalk posts can often be sidetracked by personal observations and then people feeling they have to defend or prove them, so refraining from getting into that dynamic would be good.
Just an unofficial opinion, folks may do with it as they will.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:21 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]
It would probably be more helpful if folks (meaning everyone) remained focused on what they think isn't working moderation wise and/or suggesting alternatives and improvements instead of asking people to "prove" what they believe they saw. MetaTalk posts can often be sidetracked by personal observations and then people feeling they have to defend or prove them, so refraining from getting into that dynamic would be good.
Just an unofficial opinion, folks may do with it as they will.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:21 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]
Ok, here's a suggested alternative and improvement.
On September 13th, Loup had been unable to reply to questions regarding the status of the fundraiser for 4 days because they were building the Pet Tax Wall.
Yesterday, we learned that the Pet Tax Wall is not yet done, and printing and shipping are taking up a significant amount of effort.
For a fundraiser!
Let's be conservative here. Let's say that Loup has spent 1 hour per day, 3 days per week, for the last 7 weeks working on the Pet Tax Wall (any less and it's hard to imagine how it would impact their ability to glance at four comments per day on a thread that they are monitoring).
At, again conservatively, $20/hour, that is 21 hours * $20/hour = $420 of labor spent on the pet tax wall. The pet tax wall, which is intended to be a poster of random internet people's pets, will be sold for...let's say $20. To break even, that means that, assuming the printing and shipping are literally free, Metafilter will have to sell 21 copies of that poster.
What should have been done instead? Simple! Members submit their photos. Those photos go into a directory on someone's computer. "Pet Photos". One day, Loup should have downloaded a free Canva photocollage template and pointed it at the Pet Photo directory on their computer, and Canva would have churned out a perfectly ok pet poster in literally 2 seconds.
Then, Loup should have uploaded the resulting PDF to one of the many print-and-ship-on-demand services on the internet (society6, redbubble, cafepress, whoknowswhateelse) and stuck a price tag on it that let MetaFilter claim a $5 profit per poster/mug/mousepad/whatever the person wants to buy.
Because, and this is super important to note: NOBODY actually cares about the Pet Tax Wall. The Pet Tax Wall is a Macguffin that lets people get some random community feelings out of donating some money to a website they really love and care about, and want to support. Nobody is looking at the Pet Tax Wall and saying "Finally, the art piece that will complete my collection! This is exactly what my living room needs!" They're saying "Oh, cool, cute dogs. Sure, I'll toss $20 at that, help out the site, and have some tenuous connection with my fellow Mefites. That feels fun and good."
That's how you fundraise with something like this.
Same with the "Virtual Gala". What was the plan there? Where's the mechanism for making money? Why did the Virtual Gala post burn out the entire moderation staff to the point of five days of silence if it wasn't even going to make any money? Make people pay $1 to vote! Make people pay $5 to enter! Who knows. Something. Put a price tag on it, and half-ass it! If you're going to half-ass it anyway, don't make it cause a huge fight on your fundraising thread!
posted by bowbeacon at 5:57 AM on November 1 [28 favorites]
On September 13th, Loup had been unable to reply to questions regarding the status of the fundraiser for 4 days because they were building the Pet Tax Wall.
Yesterday, we learned that the Pet Tax Wall is not yet done, and printing and shipping are taking up a significant amount of effort.
For a fundraiser!
Let's be conservative here. Let's say that Loup has spent 1 hour per day, 3 days per week, for the last 7 weeks working on the Pet Tax Wall (any less and it's hard to imagine how it would impact their ability to glance at four comments per day on a thread that they are monitoring).
At, again conservatively, $20/hour, that is 21 hours * $20/hour = $420 of labor spent on the pet tax wall. The pet tax wall, which is intended to be a poster of random internet people's pets, will be sold for...let's say $20. To break even, that means that, assuming the printing and shipping are literally free, Metafilter will have to sell 21 copies of that poster.
What should have been done instead? Simple! Members submit their photos. Those photos go into a directory on someone's computer. "Pet Photos". One day, Loup should have downloaded a free Canva photocollage template and pointed it at the Pet Photo directory on their computer, and Canva would have churned out a perfectly ok pet poster in literally 2 seconds.
Then, Loup should have uploaded the resulting PDF to one of the many print-and-ship-on-demand services on the internet (society6, redbubble, cafepress, whoknowswhateelse) and stuck a price tag on it that let MetaFilter claim a $5 profit per poster/mug/mousepad/whatever the person wants to buy.
Because, and this is super important to note: NOBODY actually cares about the Pet Tax Wall. The Pet Tax Wall is a Macguffin that lets people get some random community feelings out of donating some money to a website they really love and care about, and want to support. Nobody is looking at the Pet Tax Wall and saying "Finally, the art piece that will complete my collection! This is exactly what my living room needs!" They're saying "Oh, cool, cute dogs. Sure, I'll toss $20 at that, help out the site, and have some tenuous connection with my fellow Mefites. That feels fun and good."
That's how you fundraise with something like this.
Same with the "Virtual Gala". What was the plan there? Where's the mechanism for making money? Why did the Virtual Gala post burn out the entire moderation staff to the point of five days of silence if it wasn't even going to make any money? Make people pay $1 to vote! Make people pay $5 to enter! Who knows. Something. Put a price tag on it, and half-ass it! If you're going to half-ass it anyway, don't make it cause a huge fight on your fundraising thread!
posted by bowbeacon at 5:57 AM on November 1 [28 favorites]
what they think isn't working moderation wise and/or suggesting alternatives and improvements
My ask is simple. Assuming no other improvements are possible until the MeFiFoFum or whatever it's called takes over, then at least do this:
✨please✨
Stop giving yourselves deadlines for things that you are not able to meet.
No one (as far as I am aware) asked for a Gala or a Pet Tax Wall. People have been making whispers about a cookbook for literally years, it also didn't have to happen right now. All of this additional pressure to moderating the site is manufactured. Metatalk is queued, releasing a Metatalk at a time that's inconvenient to the mod team is manufactured. It's unnecessary to create this pressure and drama.
If it's true that we're stuck in a holding pattern until some future time, then please stop trying to do new weird things. Put 100% of the limited time and energy into 1) clear and open moderation of the site 2) the internal goals required to meet that future event. Everything not in service of those two things at this time is just noise that stresses y'all out, and it looks to the community like wasted money, time, and effort which pisses the community off.
posted by phunniemee at 6:01 AM on November 1 [44 favorites]
My ask is simple. Assuming no other improvements are possible until the MeFiFoFum or whatever it's called takes over, then at least do this:
✨please✨
Stop giving yourselves deadlines for things that you are not able to meet.
No one (as far as I am aware) asked for a Gala or a Pet Tax Wall. People have been making whispers about a cookbook for literally years, it also didn't have to happen right now. All of this additional pressure to moderating the site is manufactured. Metatalk is queued, releasing a Metatalk at a time that's inconvenient to the mod team is manufactured. It's unnecessary to create this pressure and drama.
If it's true that we're stuck in a holding pattern until some future time, then please stop trying to do new weird things. Put 100% of the limited time and energy into 1) clear and open moderation of the site 2) the internal goals required to meet that future event. Everything not in service of those two things at this time is just noise that stresses y'all out, and it looks to the community like wasted money, time, and effort which pisses the community off.
posted by phunniemee at 6:01 AM on November 1 [44 favorites]
Glad to hear that loup is doing okay.
posted by JanetLand at 6:18 AM on November 1 [5 favorites]
posted by JanetLand at 6:18 AM on November 1 [5 favorites]
I would much rather have moderators spend their time participating in shaping discussion (not by deleting things, by posting the comments they would like to see, I mean), leaving clear notes indicating when they do delete or edit things, actually prioritizing requests based on a clear site plan (it doesn't have to be complicated, just look at whether you're prioritizing community or user tech experience or inclusion or something else, and use that to guide decisions), and giving clear realistic updates/answers on priorities and timelines, rather than working on, let alone anxiety-spiraling, about these random often self-imposed projects.
It's all weeds, very few trees, let alone forest. I know it's gotten this way in large part because users have been requesting more and more updates on things as it became more and more apparent that things were crashing and that the people in charge were hiding it or ignoring it. Getting out of this pattern requires transparency and vision from the people with the power to implement things.
posted by lapis at 6:25 AM on November 1 [12 favorites]
It's all weeds, very few trees, let alone forest. I know it's gotten this way in large part because users have been requesting more and more updates on things as it became more and more apparent that things were crashing and that the people in charge were hiding it or ignoring it. Getting out of this pattern requires transparency and vision from the people with the power to implement things.
posted by lapis at 6:25 AM on November 1 [12 favorites]
Or, ya know, what she said in 2021 about how the users have been trying to provide suggestions about and support for needed changes for many many many many many years, and generally getting ignored. It's frustrating that moderators (even if they're not speaking as moderators) keep asking for suggestions as if they've never been given. Especially when there's no acknowledgement in the new requests that previous labor was ignored and no structure presented that would indicate the new requests are going to be stored, evaluated, and implemented in any way.
It's turning into a "It's no longer our job to educate you" thing at this point, given the sheer volume of feedback available on your own site.
posted by lapis at 7:07 AM on November 1 [19 favorites]
It's turning into a "It's no longer our job to educate you" thing at this point, given the sheer volume of feedback available on your own site.
posted by lapis at 7:07 AM on November 1 [19 favorites]
back at it again with those relatable memes
posted by phunniemee at 7:13 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 7:13 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]
visitors to the site shouldn’t be required or expected to provide more than basic everyday courtesy
I maintain that that did not happen in this thread, but I get that there are differing views and differing ways of interpreting text on a screen.
posted by JanetLand at 7:56 AM on November 1 [3 favorites]
I maintain that that did not happen in this thread, but I get that there are differing views and differing ways of interpreting text on a screen.
posted by JanetLand at 7:56 AM on November 1 [3 favorites]
Sincerely, how would you have liked people to communicate after 3 days of radio silence about a time sensitive event from the only person who could provide an update?
posted by bowbeacon at 8:06 AM on November 1 [5 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 8:06 AM on November 1 [5 favorites]
This has been going on for years. The last BIPOC meeting notes were posted for the January 2024 meeting. Was that the last meeting? Why haven’t the meeting notes been posted since? What about that Trans/NB survey when the ‘community’ was asked what questions should be on a survey and then there was a survey and then…what?
The staff has to know that MetaTalk is a shit way to crowdsource this stuff and by now I’m assuming it’s either intentional to gum up the works or there’s no better solution on the horizon and they know the ‘community’ would lose their minds if there was radio silence so it’s better to have shit than nothing.
There’s probably not enough hours or pay for this side job to do everything the ‘community’ demands. My unsolicited thought remains the same: do what you say you’re going to do, when you say you’re going to do it. Transparency doesn’t mean saying yes to everything and then half- or quarter-assing the process. Do you want to sit in a committee, take / transcribe / post notes? Cool, do that. Plan a fundraiser with a bunch of different events? Cool, do that. Be the only mod that responds to MetaTalk comments? Cool, do that.
Can’t / won’t / shouldn’t do some of that? Cool, don’t.
(Most) people don’t want committees and fundraisers and rules discussions and etc etc just to have those things. They feel like it’s their way of saving the site. Does the staff want to facilitate those efforts? Cool, do that. Is it not in the budget to pay a person two hours a week to do that? Then don’t do that.
posted by Diskeater at 8:34 AM on November 1 [17 favorites]
The staff has to know that MetaTalk is a shit way to crowdsource this stuff and by now I’m assuming it’s either intentional to gum up the works or there’s no better solution on the horizon and they know the ‘community’ would lose their minds if there was radio silence so it’s better to have shit than nothing.
There’s probably not enough hours or pay for this side job to do everything the ‘community’ demands. My unsolicited thought remains the same: do what you say you’re going to do, when you say you’re going to do it. Transparency doesn’t mean saying yes to everything and then half- or quarter-assing the process. Do you want to sit in a committee, take / transcribe / post notes? Cool, do that. Plan a fundraiser with a bunch of different events? Cool, do that. Be the only mod that responds to MetaTalk comments? Cool, do that.
Can’t / won’t / shouldn’t do some of that? Cool, don’t.
(Most) people don’t want committees and fundraisers and rules discussions and etc etc just to have those things. They feel like it’s their way of saving the site. Does the staff want to facilitate those efforts? Cool, do that. Is it not in the budget to pay a person two hours a week to do that? Then don’t do that.
posted by Diskeater at 8:34 AM on November 1 [17 favorites]
Hold elections for volunteer mods and admins.
I'm not familiar with US labour law, but in jurisdictions I'm familiar with, even if (big if) volunteers are permitted in a for-profit workplace, if they are performing the same job duties paid staff are doing, they are considered employees (and could sue for wages.) So basically, to have volunteer mods here, at the least the mods would have to be given other job titles and duties. (And honestly that would be questionable if a former mod wanted to pursue it.)
If you remember, there were some of us doing volunteer work (and some has been done since like the PR work around the anniversary) but some of the roles grew and when the steering committee posted what sounded like fairly extensive job descriptions around the next round of elections, people asked if that was legal and Jessamyn (quite rightly I'm sure) ascertained that there was a legal risk to the organization, so that got shut down. The PR work is pretty obviously something that doesn't require scheduling and isn't in anyone's job description.
Reddit gets away with it because:
- they provide space/tools for people to create subreddits on a voluntary basis, so they are providing a service to the mods, not demanding work
- they don't have paid mods in any capacity
(I will say most small businesses do have help in some way - some friend writes a marketing plan or picks up a delivery, a cousin covers a shift in exchange for dinner because everyone was sick that day. This is one of those things that works until you go over an invisible line.)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:35 AM on November 1 [6 favorites]
I'm not familiar with US labour law, but in jurisdictions I'm familiar with, even if (big if) volunteers are permitted in a for-profit workplace, if they are performing the same job duties paid staff are doing, they are considered employees (and could sue for wages.) So basically, to have volunteer mods here, at the least the mods would have to be given other job titles and duties. (And honestly that would be questionable if a former mod wanted to pursue it.)
If you remember, there were some of us doing volunteer work (and some has been done since like the PR work around the anniversary) but some of the roles grew and when the steering committee posted what sounded like fairly extensive job descriptions around the next round of elections, people asked if that was legal and Jessamyn (quite rightly I'm sure) ascertained that there was a legal risk to the organization, so that got shut down. The PR work is pretty obviously something that doesn't require scheduling and isn't in anyone's job description.
Reddit gets away with it because:
- they provide space/tools for people to create subreddits on a voluntary basis, so they are providing a service to the mods, not demanding work
- they don't have paid mods in any capacity
(I will say most small businesses do have help in some way - some friend writes a marketing plan or picks up a delivery, a cousin covers a shift in exchange for dinner because everyone was sick that day. This is one of those things that works until you go over an invisible line.)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:35 AM on November 1 [6 favorites]
My shift hasn't started yet but I'll chime in and address a few things:
– Yesterday, we learned that the Pet Tax Wall is not yet done, and printing and shipping are taking up a significant amount of effort. Ehm, none of that is true. As I said yesterday, the Pet tax wall is ready. The only thing left is to do is to sign up for a printing and shipping service (Printful, RedBubble, etc.). I think the reason this didn't happen yesterday is clear, my entire shift yesterday was spent on this thread, moderation and internal communications.
– The issues warriorqueen mentions above are real. I have a list of recommendations to work around those issues (this is not my first time working through the transition to a non-profit) for the IB and I think it is key to start operating in a way that allows members to help and get involved and that is the reasons why we have been setting aside $600/month for Member contributions since July, unfortunately, none of it has been used to this day.
– Regarding the BIPOC board minutes, I just want to reiterate that I have zero control over that, I can only make recommendations as the Board is an autonomous and self-governing entity.
– Both the thread I decided to close saying “we need to come back to this but this will have to wait” and the Trans/NB Initiative are things I genuinely want to come back to, and things I, personally, care about. If it hasn't happened in the past months is really because of the bandwidth issue.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:54 AM on November 1 [1 favorite]
– Yesterday, we learned that the Pet Tax Wall is not yet done, and printing and shipping are taking up a significant amount of effort. Ehm, none of that is true. As I said yesterday, the Pet tax wall is ready. The only thing left is to do is to sign up for a printing and shipping service (Printful, RedBubble, etc.). I think the reason this didn't happen yesterday is clear, my entire shift yesterday was spent on this thread, moderation and internal communications.
– The issues warriorqueen mentions above are real. I have a list of recommendations to work around those issues (this is not my first time working through the transition to a non-profit) for the IB and I think it is key to start operating in a way that allows members to help and get involved and that is the reasons why we have been setting aside $600/month for Member contributions since July, unfortunately, none of it has been used to this day.
– Regarding the BIPOC board minutes, I just want to reiterate that I have zero control over that, I can only make recommendations as the Board is an autonomous and self-governing entity.
– Both the thread I decided to close saying “we need to come back to this but this will have to wait” and the Trans/NB Initiative are things I genuinely want to come back to, and things I, personally, care about. If it hasn't happened in the past months is really because of the bandwidth issue.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:54 AM on November 1 [1 favorite]
Sorry, I was confused by the fact that the Pet Tax wall had kept you silent for four days last month, and still wasn't available. I assumed that meant you had been spending a lot of effort on it and it wasn't yet done, but clearly I was mistaken.
posted by bowbeacon at 9:59 AM on November 1 [3 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 9:59 AM on November 1 [3 favorites]
Or, ya know, what she said in 2021 about how the users have been trying to provide suggestions about and support for needed changes for many many many many many years, and generally getting ignored.
That link seems dead, have contacted the original member to see if they have access. That's from 3 years ago, so not sure how is relevant now, but it's a starting point.
Here's a Google doc I made, titled "MetaFilter suggestions from the community", currently shareable only
by other MeFi staff members. But I'll be on duty for a little bit more today, then almost all day Saturday, so will check back and add stuff. That way there's a of public document about the community is asking for.
Also worth noting that the site does have funding for paying people for small jobs. But I can't remember where that link/information is. I've been going back through site updates, but haven't found it yet (anyone remember?). Which is a site problem I have a thought on further down*.
But going forward, it might be a good idea to break tasks down into smaller steps so we can ask people for an hour of their time and they'd get X money. That way the load is shared and the community can get involved in things and small tasks can be done.
* Going back through the various site updates has reminded me that a lot of stuff has been done, but it's hard to find all that information as it's just bunched together in site updates. For instance, there's usually some sort of tech update in a site update, but it's hard to see an overall picture because that information is so spread out. I think it would be a good idea to have separate pages for site updates, and board updates, etc, etc. That way it's easier to access component information to get a better grasp of the overall whole.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:14 AM on November 1 [1 favorite]
That link seems dead, have contacted the original member to see if they have access. That's from 3 years ago, so not sure how is relevant now, but it's a starting point.
Here's a Google doc I made, titled "MetaFilter suggestions from the community", currently shareable only
by other MeFi staff members. But I'll be on duty for a little bit more today, then almost all day Saturday, so will check back and add stuff. That way there's a of public document about the community is asking for.
Also worth noting that the site does have funding for paying people for small jobs. But I can't remember where that link/information is. I've been going back through site updates, but haven't found it yet (anyone remember?). Which is a site problem I have a thought on further down*.
But going forward, it might be a good idea to break tasks down into smaller steps so we can ask people for an hour of their time and they'd get X money. That way the load is shared and the community can get involved in things and small tasks can be done.
* Going back through the various site updates has reminded me that a lot of stuff has been done, but it's hard to find all that information as it's just bunched together in site updates. For instance, there's usually some sort of tech update in a site update, but it's hard to see an overall picture because that information is so spread out. I think it would be a good idea to have separate pages for site updates, and board updates, etc, etc. That way it's easier to access component information to get a better grasp of the overall whole.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:14 AM on November 1 [1 favorite]
I was listing some stuff that has seemingly fallen through the cracks as examples of things you said you were going to do instead of just saying "there's a ton of stuff you said you were going to do that has seemingly fallen through the cracks."
posted by Diskeater at 10:46 AM on November 1 [4 favorites]
posted by Diskeater at 10:46 AM on November 1 [4 favorites]
I think it would be a good idea to have separate pages for site updates, and board updates, etc, etc.
Again, this is a great idea in theory but who will maintain and update this?
If the answer is loup, they have already established over many years, and said specifically here, that the act of writing, drafting, and posting is a difficult and laborious process that takes an entire day or more, causes stress, and fills them with anxiety. I don't think adding this kind of task to loup's to-do list would make their life better, and I don't think this would ultimately be an effort in service to the community (taking focus away from action to continue to document process), no matter how well intentioned.
If it can be maintained by another member of the mod team, bless.
posted by phunniemee at 11:29 AM on November 1 [8 favorites]
Again, this is a great idea in theory but who will maintain and update this?
If the answer is loup, they have already established over many years, and said specifically here, that the act of writing, drafting, and posting is a difficult and laborious process that takes an entire day or more, causes stress, and fills them with anxiety. I don't think adding this kind of task to loup's to-do list would make their life better, and I don't think this would ultimately be an effort in service to the community (taking focus away from action to continue to document process), no matter how well intentioned.
If it can be maintained by another member of the mod team, bless.
posted by phunniemee at 11:29 AM on November 1 [8 favorites]
"Yesterday, we learned that the Pet Tax Wall is not yet done, and printing and shipping are taking up a significant amount of effort. Ehm, none of that is true. As I said yesterday, the Pet tax wall is ready. The only thing left is to do is to sign up for a printing and shipping service (Printful, RedBubble, etc.). I think the reason this didn't happen yesterday is clear, my entire shift yesterday was spent on this thread, moderation and internal communications."
So in summary ... it's not done and printing and shipping are taking a significant amount of effort.
Good talk.
posted by bowmaniac at 11:44 AM on November 1 [5 favorites]
So in summary ... it's not done and printing and shipping are taking a significant amount of effort.
Good talk.
posted by bowmaniac at 11:44 AM on November 1 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Back on duty! One comment flagged last night deleted. Talking ironically about another member's emotional stability is rude, cruel and definitely goes against our Guidelines.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:01 PM on November 1
posted by loup (staff) at 12:01 PM on November 1
That comment was from the 29th, no?
posted by bowbeacon at 12:02 PM on November 1 [2 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 12:02 PM on November 1 [2 favorites]
Yes, the comment itself was from the 29th, the flags came in yesterday. Mod note adjusted for clarity.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:26 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:26 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
How are you spending your entire shift allegedly moderating this thread but you don’t see comments unless they’re flagged?
That’s a rhetorical question. I think the answer is the same as why you have so much experience managing projects and shepherding nonprofit transitions yet projects are not getting managed and the transition to a nonprofit seems completely dead in the water.
posted by knobknosher at 12:44 PM on November 1 [8 favorites]
That’s a rhetorical question. I think the answer is the same as why you have so much experience managing projects and shepherding nonprofit transitions yet projects are not getting managed and the transition to a nonprofit seems completely dead in the water.
posted by knobknosher at 12:44 PM on November 1 [8 favorites]
But because we’re looking for concrete suggestions here, I will say that if you want people to do work, you need to actually make it clear what work you want them to do. If you want them to volunteer to help with fundraising, you need to actively do something to let them know you’re looking for that help. You need to do it before the fundraiser, not as a vague aside in a random post about the fundraiser that’s difficult for even Brandon to find. Maybe these issues, like staffing or planning ahead, don’t pop up in multi million dollar projects. If so, terribly sorry we’re so beneath you in that sense but hopefully this explanation will help.
posted by knobknosher at 12:46 PM on November 1 [4 favorites]
posted by knobknosher at 12:46 PM on November 1 [4 favorites]
What is the point of crowdsourcing more ideas for improvement if there isn't anyone available to do the discrete tasks necessary for day to day moderation and communication?
posted by CtrlAltD at 12:53 PM on November 1 [8 favorites]
posted by CtrlAltD at 12:53 PM on November 1 [8 favorites]
There are some comments above misreading my words in this thread in ways that I don't know if they are intentional or not, I'm happy to clarify specifics one-on-one via email if that helps but the "light moderation on MataTalk" stance has clearly not worked in the past months and, as I mentioned above, the risk that a mod note or deletion will derail the entire thread itself is real and we can't systematically do that.
Again, this is a great idea in theory but who will maintain and update this?
This is actually something easy to maintain for anyone (yup, even me) with the proper guardrails. The main reason why project road maps, adjustments in timelines, and clear and effective communication are useful and achievable in a real project environment is because of those guardrails.
If you want people to do work, you need to actually make it clear what work you want them to do.
The thing is, I don't "want people to do work". We. are looking for ways to allow members to impact MeFi and drive initiatives they would like to see. This budget was allocated to make room for member contributions over 3 months ago. Back then it was intentionally open ended because it was a step towards the community-driven model and a way to finally allow people to contribute in the ways they have been interested in helping. Then in august I explicitly said we'd like to use it for contributions towards this year’s fundraising and I've been mentioning the member contribution budget in every site update since then. So far it hasn't been used but I have a list of people who have offered specific help with the new site and will reach to them when we are ready and I am in conversations with a few members who have expressed interest in driving specific side projects that hold a lot of value.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:31 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
Again, this is a great idea in theory but who will maintain and update this?
This is actually something easy to maintain for anyone (yup, even me) with the proper guardrails. The main reason why project road maps, adjustments in timelines, and clear and effective communication are useful and achievable in a real project environment is because of those guardrails.
If you want people to do work, you need to actually make it clear what work you want them to do.
The thing is, I don't "want people to do work". We. are looking for ways to allow members to impact MeFi and drive initiatives they would like to see. This budget was allocated to make room for member contributions over 3 months ago. Back then it was intentionally open ended because it was a step towards the community-driven model and a way to finally allow people to contribute in the ways they have been interested in helping. Then in august I explicitly said we'd like to use it for contributions towards this year’s fundraising and I've been mentioning the member contribution budget in every site update since then. So far it hasn't been used but I have a list of people who have offered specific help with the new site and will reach to them when we are ready and I am in conversations with a few members who have expressed interest in driving specific side projects that hold a lot of value.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:31 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
That's exactly what we have done in the past. When it comes to the contribution budget, again, this budget was specifically and intentionally open ended exactly because one of the pressing needs we need to move away from is the status quo where a sizable amount of members have been reasonably frustrated over the years because they have great ideas and initiatives to help the site but are simply told "no". I get the suggestion that it should be put to use in specific ways and that we need to ask for that openly, and yes that's a great idea that we can implement but I hope you do see the difference between that suggestion and what you are saying.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:48 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 1:48 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
1. What is the process for applying for payment for member contributions?
2. How is it decided what gets funded?
posted by lapis at 2:44 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
2. How is it decided what gets funded?
posted by lapis at 2:44 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
1. What is the process for applying for payment for member contributions?
Contact us!
2. How is it decided what gets funded?
Depends on what the proposal is, it will certainly go through Jessamyn and myself. But, for example, if its something tech related we'll consult with frimble and kirkaracha as well.
posted by loup (staff) at 2:55 PM on November 1
Contact us!
2. How is it decided what gets funded?
Depends on what the proposal is, it will certainly go through Jessamyn and myself. But, for example, if its something tech related we'll consult with frimble and kirkaracha as well.
posted by loup (staff) at 2:55 PM on November 1
Loup: "the Pet tax wall is ready. The only thing left is to do is to sign up for a printing and shipping service (Printful, RedBubble, etc.)."
bowmaniac: "So in summary ... it's not done and printing and shipping are taking a significant amount of effort."
I don't think that follows. I have to make reservations for a restaurant for a get-together with friends on Sunday. I haven't done it yet, but that doesn't mean that making reservations takes a significant amount of effort. It's actually super easy. I just haven't done it.
posted by Bugbread at 3:03 PM on November 1
bowmaniac: "So in summary ... it's not done and printing and shipping are taking a significant amount of effort."
I don't think that follows. I have to make reservations for a restaurant for a get-together with friends on Sunday. I haven't done it yet, but that doesn't mean that making reservations takes a significant amount of effort. It's actually super easy. I just haven't done it.
posted by Bugbread at 3:03 PM on November 1
Okay, made the restaurant reservation. Thanks for getting me off my butt.
posted by Bugbread at 3:11 PM on November 1 [2 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 3:11 PM on November 1 [2 favorites]
Oh, my apologies, I can see how you would interpret it that way. My intention was to extend an offer to you, or anyone in this thread to talk to me directly, there are conversations that benefit from the fluidity and undivided attention of a one-on-one setting and that aren't necessarily the best use of this, or any public thread.
posted by loup (staff) at 3:34 PM on November 1
posted by loup (staff) at 3:34 PM on November 1
I'm sorry to hear that. Every time I've talked to a member "face to face" I've found it to be enlightening and productive for both parties.
posted by loup (staff) at 3:59 PM on November 1
posted by loup (staff) at 3:59 PM on November 1
I don't know if the brief exchange we had before my meta got posted counts but I don't recall receiving a user experience survey.
Please correct me, but I think what moggies is meaning is that multiple people have similar questions (here, elsewhere in Metafilter, in life, etc), and answering public questions openly and in public seems like a much more efficient and effective way to address it than making everybody come to you one on one. I work in a capacity where I have hundreds of employees who come to me for answers on general company things. I don't have the bandwidth to address each person individually, and I say that as a person who has zero time management difficulties. I know what I would choose as the simplest path forward for myself.
posted by phunniemee at 4:12 PM on November 1 [8 favorites]
Please correct me, but I think what moggies is meaning is that multiple people have similar questions (here, elsewhere in Metafilter, in life, etc), and answering public questions openly and in public seems like a much more efficient and effective way to address it than making everybody come to you one on one. I work in a capacity where I have hundreds of employees who come to me for answers on general company things. I don't have the bandwidth to address each person individually, and I say that as a person who has zero time management difficulties. I know what I would choose as the simplest path forward for myself.
posted by phunniemee at 4:12 PM on November 1 [8 favorites]
Every time I've talked to a member "face to face" I've found it to be enlightening and productive for both parties.
OK, but there are about 2500 active members of the site. Talking with people one-on-one, no matter how great you are at it, is not a viable strategy for communicating with this site's membership.
Would it help for someone else to act as a go-between? Like we appoint someone as a community rep and they gather up questions and concerns from folks and then have a face-to-face chat with you once a month, and write a post about it?
posted by automatronic at 4:16 PM on November 1 [6 favorites]
OK, but there are about 2500 active members of the site. Talking with people one-on-one, no matter how great you are at it, is not a viable strategy for communicating with this site's membership.
Would it help for someone else to act as a go-between? Like we appoint someone as a community rep and they gather up questions and concerns from folks and then have a face-to-face chat with you once a month, and write a post about it?
posted by automatronic at 4:16 PM on November 1 [6 favorites]
Naw, pretty sure it’s the users who are wrong. I’m a member of like two or three communities that spun off from this one, have zero or extremely limited moderation, and are much more active per person than this site. Probably 75% of these easy to moderate people ditched the site because of some combination of disrespectful or outright hostile modding and/or feeling frustrated or angry at mismanagement of donated resources. But hey, fuck ‘em. As Thomas Jefferson famously said, better to pay one person to do fuck all than to keep a hundred engaged, committed people involved in the community they helped build.
To be fair, this shit started way before loup, but to paraphrase Mitch Hedberg, this site’s management used to suck. It still sucks, too.
posted by knobknosher at 4:31 PM on November 1 [9 favorites]
To be fair, this shit started way before loup, but to paraphrase Mitch Hedberg, this site’s management used to suck. It still sucks, too.
posted by knobknosher at 4:31 PM on November 1 [9 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Please respect the guidelines by speaking for yourself, not others. And in general, can we allow others to express themselves by taking a step back in the conversation if you have commented multiple times in this thread?
posted by loup (staff) at 4:42 PM on November 1
posted by loup (staff) at 4:42 PM on November 1
I love watching this thread get memory-holed in real time.
posted by hototogisu at 5:09 PM on November 1 [6 favorites]
posted by hototogisu at 5:09 PM on November 1 [6 favorites]
phunniemee, but I can't see how that analogy is the same here. I mean, was that meta more efficient and effective? Than what?
OK, but there are about 2500 active members of the site. Talking with people one-on-one, no matter how great you are at it, is not a viable strategy for communicating with this site's membership.
I totally agree, and it is no scalable in any way. But I don't think this is something everyone needs or is even asking for, is just something that any of you as members can do anytime if you want to.
Would it help for someone else to act as a go-between?
I kind of wonder the same.
knobknosher
I don't disagree with you on many levels, and I think that most of that can be solved by structural changes, and the sooner they happen the better.
I love watching this thread get memory-holed in real time.
No, just two comments deleted for answering to the deletion note itself.
posted by loup (staff) at 5:13 PM on November 1
OK, but there are about 2500 active members of the site. Talking with people one-on-one, no matter how great you are at it, is not a viable strategy for communicating with this site's membership.
I totally agree, and it is no scalable in any way. But I don't think this is something everyone needs or is even asking for, is just something that any of you as members can do anytime if you want to.
Would it help for someone else to act as a go-between?
I kind of wonder the same.
knobknosher
I don't disagree with you on many levels, and I think that most of that can be solved by structural changes, and the sooner they happen the better.
I love watching this thread get memory-holed in real time.
No, just two comments deleted for answering to the deletion note itself.
posted by loup (staff) at 5:13 PM on November 1
Would an appropriate use of those funds potentially include a community member providing staff a summary of previously expressed concerns and goals going forward?
My professional background is in analyzing and summarizing community feedback for organizations to improve their services (particularly as it regards marginalized groups). I have some extra time right now and could work on a project like that with appropriate compensation, but I’d prefer a quick “yes, this could be feasible” before writing up a whole proposal about it.
(I would also be interested in working on the trans survey, btw, as survey research and particularly LGBTQ-focused climate type stuff is my whole jam—but given that there are broader issues which also affect me as a trans user, I would prefer to tackle those first before drilling down to trans-specific problems.)
posted by brook horse at 5:13 PM on November 1 [4 favorites]
My professional background is in analyzing and summarizing community feedback for organizations to improve their services (particularly as it regards marginalized groups). I have some extra time right now and could work on a project like that with appropriate compensation, but I’d prefer a quick “yes, this could be feasible” before writing up a whole proposal about it.
(I would also be interested in working on the trans survey, btw, as survey research and particularly LGBTQ-focused climate type stuff is my whole jam—but given that there are broader issues which also affect me as a trans user, I would prefer to tackle those first before drilling down to trans-specific problems.)
posted by brook horse at 5:13 PM on November 1 [4 favorites]
Yes, actually. The community has made it clear that you need to put the brakes on.
posted by hototogisu at 5:14 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
posted by hototogisu at 5:14 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
brook horse, of course! Please contact us!
posted by loup (staff) at 5:16 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 5:16 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
not just everyday big moggies: "Was there a post about this somewhere that everyone missed? It seems like it’s only been in the last 24 hours that anyone understands that this is no longer about an edition of one being auctioned off."
Back in the September 18th update, it says "Then, we’ll put copies of the Pet Tax wall and Cookbook for sale and proceed with the Podcast."
posted by Bugbread at 5:25 PM on November 1
Back in the September 18th update, it says "Then, we’ll put copies of the Pet Tax wall and Cookbook for sale and proceed with the Podcast."
posted by Bugbread at 5:25 PM on November 1
phunniemee, but I can't see how that analogy is the same here. I mean, was that meta more efficient and effective? Than what?
The thrust of requesting my meta be public, as I very clearly stated in our enlightening and productive 1:1 email exchange, was to hold moderation accountable for their actions. Having your private assurance in secret that mods will always leave a note in the future doesn't achieve that.
posted by phunniemee at 5:29 PM on November 1 [11 favorites]
The thrust of requesting my meta be public, as I very clearly stated in our enlightening and productive 1:1 email exchange, was to hold moderation accountable for their actions. Having your private assurance in secret that mods will always leave a note in the future doesn't achieve that.
posted by phunniemee at 5:29 PM on November 1 [11 favorites]
Also, quite specifically, I was annoyed in particular that a content warning was made so frivolously and added to my comment like it was my words. I think content warnings/trigger warnings are important, serious, and should be used when appropriate so that they maintain real value. It cheapens a content warning to slap one on a goofy still frame of a melt nazi from a 40 year old PG movie. Like the freakin prop 65 warning of the internet. I don't want to be used to further the dilution of content warnings, and yeah maybe I had a snit about letting everyone who read that edited comment think I had personally thrown it in there like content warnings are a joke.
posted by phunniemee at 5:36 PM on November 1 [16 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 5:36 PM on November 1 [16 favorites]
Could that have been achieved by me putting it in writing somewhere publicly accessible? Or, I mean, there are many practical ways to achieve that, I'm not looking to give anyone private assurance of anything. I think your concern was easier to address privately.
posted by loup (staff) at 5:37 PM on November 1
posted by loup (staff) at 5:37 PM on November 1
Silenced all my life.
posted by phunniemee at 5:39 PM on November 1 [2 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 5:39 PM on November 1 [2 favorites]
Hush, hush, keep it down now, metas carry.
posted by snofoam at 6:03 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
posted by snofoam at 6:03 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]
if deleting comments in metatalk for "answering to a deletion note" is a thing, how exactly are we to respond when we think a moderator is making deletions in Metatalk we think are ill-advised? Should I have started another metatalk to say "seems like a strange application of the rule, given what I thought it was intended to achieve"?
posted by sagc at 6:10 PM on November 1 [6 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:10 PM on November 1 [6 favorites]
I can only speak for myself, but this isn’t working.
posted by snofoam at 6:13 PM on November 1 [12 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 6:13 PM on November 1 [12 favorites]
moggies banned, I guess? timed out? who knows. sad.
posted by phunniemee at 6:22 PM on November 1 [7 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 6:22 PM on November 1 [7 favorites]
Given the flow (they posted a pretty non-contentious comment, got deleted, posted an even less contentious comment, also got deleted) I think "buttoned" is the most likely.
posted by Bugbread at 6:35 PM on November 1 [5 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 6:35 PM on November 1 [5 favorites]
This is embarrassing. I called for Loup’s resignation a few months ago, and I’ll do it again. Please, for the good of this site, which is important to me, and I presume so many others, please quit. You’re killing this place.
posted by bowbeacon at 7:14 PM on November 1 [10 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 7:14 PM on November 1 [10 favorites]
I've also seen the comments that were deleted, and I can't respect the decision to delete them.
Regarding change we'd like to see: speaking for myself, what I've been waiting for since cortex's time was at least one and ideally several someones on the staff to act as the adults in the room: pushing back against bad ideas and unrealistic ideas; pushing back against unrealistic implementation schedules and resource allocation; pushing back against stupid prioritization decisions; recognizing when things are made more complicated or convoluted than they need to be; holding people accountable when they don't do what they say they will; forcing there to be backup plans for when people don't or can't do what they're supposed to; forcing there to be advance planning and intelligent structuring to avoid this happening in the first place.
Someone to supply good judgment.
Metafilter has been without that for I don't even remember how many years now. Back in the day, jessamyn and (maybe?) cortex seemed to actively push back against some of Matt's thinking and play a more active role in the direction of the site, and it felt like adults were in charge. Maybe not all of them would be right all the time, but between the three of them and pb, competence would mostly prevail. Since then, I don't know if the problem is that none of the mods see anything wrong with the decisionmaking here, or that none of them are listened to enough in the decisionmaking, or that none of them is kept sufficiently in the loop to even know much about the decisions in advance.
I understand why jessamyn can't be bothered to be that voice of sound judgment, but I wish she had taken it on herself to make sure that at least one person on the staff would be both able and willing to play that role.
Seriously, was there no one on the staff who pushed back on any aspect of the Pet Tax Wall or Halloween Gala or entire approach to the fundraiser, or having so many tasks rely on someone who's consistently unreliable, or any of the countless other decisions I cannot for the life of me find smart?
Since there's been a lot of discussion of politeness and rudeness in this thread: In principle I agree that avoiding snark and ugly language and personal attacks is best. I don't manage to stick to that 100%, because I am so constantly amazed in a bad way by what I see, but I do consciously try. However: there are many ways to be antagonistic and disrespectful. Evading questions, going into total radio silence, making ill-considered promises and then blowing them off as a rule rather than the exception, making cheap excuses, deleting the types of comments I saw deleted -- those things also feel disrespectful and antagonistic, to me.
posted by trig at 7:17 PM on November 1 [44 favorites]
Regarding change we'd like to see: speaking for myself, what I've been waiting for since cortex's time was at least one and ideally several someones on the staff to act as the adults in the room: pushing back against bad ideas and unrealistic ideas; pushing back against unrealistic implementation schedules and resource allocation; pushing back against stupid prioritization decisions; recognizing when things are made more complicated or convoluted than they need to be; holding people accountable when they don't do what they say they will; forcing there to be backup plans for when people don't or can't do what they're supposed to; forcing there to be advance planning and intelligent structuring to avoid this happening in the first place.
Someone to supply good judgment.
Metafilter has been without that for I don't even remember how many years now. Back in the day, jessamyn and (maybe?) cortex seemed to actively push back against some of Matt's thinking and play a more active role in the direction of the site, and it felt like adults were in charge. Maybe not all of them would be right all the time, but between the three of them and pb, competence would mostly prevail. Since then, I don't know if the problem is that none of the mods see anything wrong with the decisionmaking here, or that none of them are listened to enough in the decisionmaking, or that none of them is kept sufficiently in the loop to even know much about the decisions in advance.
I understand why jessamyn can't be bothered to be that voice of sound judgment, but I wish she had taken it on herself to make sure that at least one person on the staff would be both able and willing to play that role.
Seriously, was there no one on the staff who pushed back on any aspect of the Pet Tax Wall or Halloween Gala or entire approach to the fundraiser, or having so many tasks rely on someone who's consistently unreliable, or any of the countless other decisions I cannot for the life of me find smart?
Since there's been a lot of discussion of politeness and rudeness in this thread: In principle I agree that avoiding snark and ugly language and personal attacks is best. I don't manage to stick to that 100%, because I am so constantly amazed in a bad way by what I see, but I do consciously try. However: there are many ways to be antagonistic and disrespectful. Evading questions, going into total radio silence, making ill-considered promises and then blowing them off as a rule rather than the exception, making cheap excuses, deleting the types of comments I saw deleted -- those things also feel disrespectful and antagonistic, to me.
posted by trig at 7:17 PM on November 1 [44 favorites]
i second the call for loup to resign
posted by glonous keming at 9:22 PM on November 1 [8 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 9:22 PM on November 1 [8 favorites]
Those comments were mild and absolutely did not deserve to be deleted.
If moggies was banned for them, that's a terrible decision.
Jessamyn: I know you never wanted to be a boss and are actively working to stop being one. But you are one. One situation bosses can encounter is when an employee tells you they can can do the job and it's fine, but they can't actually do the job and that failure is causing them severe distress. Taking them at their word and letting them experience distress as part of their job is not necessarily doing them a favor. Even if loup tells it's perfectly fine and they love walking out into the firing line once a month, you need to think hard about whether that's true. If an employee says something like "I'm having a few issues but I'm sure I'll be fine" that can be code for "please rescue me from this unbearable horror".
posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:14 PM on November 1 [9 favorites]
If moggies was banned for them, that's a terrible decision.
Jessamyn: I know you never wanted to be a boss and are actively working to stop being one. But you are one. One situation bosses can encounter is when an employee tells you they can can do the job and it's fine, but they can't actually do the job and that failure is causing them severe distress. Taking them at their word and letting them experience distress as part of their job is not necessarily doing them a favor. Even if loup tells it's perfectly fine and they love walking out into the firing line once a month, you need to think hard about whether that's true. If an employee says something like "I'm having a few issues but I'm sure I'll be fine" that can be code for "please rescue me from this unbearable horror".
posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:14 PM on November 1 [9 favorites]
And now for a completely different opinion. I came to this conclusion after I participated in a MeTa discussion a few months ago.
I just repeat to myself that MeFi is a creaky old internet discussion board, and I really should relax. It was once world-renowned, but then the interstate was built and bypassed it, and it's now a kind of quaint, benign Bates Motel of a site. Charming but a bit insular and time-capsuley.
I don't expect it to ever change much because there is no organizing principle or benevolent leader present to helm the ship, and seemingly no urgency to establish one.
I find all the rules here somewhere between byzantine, Kafkaesque and talmudic. Posting here is often like trying to avoid touching the sides in Operation.
Some of you have an almost cult-like devotion to this site's look and functionality. The Slashdot-breakaway site SoylentNews (created and later abandoned but still owned by NCommander and whose community is currently working to non-profit it away from him BTW) is filled to the brim with folks who are totally ride-or-die for Slashcode. Imagine MetaFilter running on Slashcode, or Slashdot running on MeFi's base code. Tilde News uses the same software as lobste.rs. A discussion board is not rocket science. What makes this place worth your time is the community itself.
Anyway, I decided to simply post when I feel I have something to share, to read and accept others' words remembering but not judging their own lived experiences, and to just let the rest go. If MeFi dies, I'll mourn for a time, and then I'll find somewhere else to hang out.
If you feel strongly enough, there is no technical reason and little financial reason preventing you from setting up your own NON-REDDIT board/community covering whatever you want to discuss. FreeFlarum will startup-host your community for free, and their paid plan starts at 50EUR/mo for up to 50 concurrent users. They provide the software, auto upgrades and backups. You set the rules, you manage the moderation however you like. If you are technical, you can self-host the Flarum forum software.
As for me, I'm still here. See you soon on the Blue.
posted by zaixfeep at 12:59 AM on November 2 [7 favorites]
I just repeat to myself that MeFi is a creaky old internet discussion board, and I really should relax. It was once world-renowned, but then the interstate was built and bypassed it, and it's now a kind of quaint, benign Bates Motel of a site. Charming but a bit insular and time-capsuley.
I don't expect it to ever change much because there is no organizing principle or benevolent leader present to helm the ship, and seemingly no urgency to establish one.
I find all the rules here somewhere between byzantine, Kafkaesque and talmudic. Posting here is often like trying to avoid touching the sides in Operation.
Some of you have an almost cult-like devotion to this site's look and functionality. The Slashdot-breakaway site SoylentNews (created and later abandoned but still owned by NCommander and whose community is currently working to non-profit it away from him BTW) is filled to the brim with folks who are totally ride-or-die for Slashcode. Imagine MetaFilter running on Slashcode, or Slashdot running on MeFi's base code. Tilde News uses the same software as lobste.rs. A discussion board is not rocket science. What makes this place worth your time is the community itself.
Anyway, I decided to simply post when I feel I have something to share, to read and accept others' words remembering but not judging their own lived experiences, and to just let the rest go. If MeFi dies, I'll mourn for a time, and then I'll find somewhere else to hang out.
If you feel strongly enough, there is no technical reason and little financial reason preventing you from setting up your own NON-REDDIT board/community covering whatever you want to discuss. FreeFlarum will startup-host your community for free, and their paid plan starts at 50EUR/mo for up to 50 concurrent users. They provide the software, auto upgrades and backups. You set the rules, you manage the moderation however you like. If you are technical, you can self-host the Flarum forum software.
As for me, I'm still here. See you soon on the Blue.
posted by zaixfeep at 12:59 AM on November 2 [7 favorites]
Speak for yourself, not others
Speak from your own experience and perspective. Say things you genuinely mean (rather than playing devil's advocate, or saying bad things ironically). Avoid downplaying a problem just because it is not a problem for you. Avoid speaking on behalf of other people and discussing their experience like an academic topic; invite them to speak for themselves instead!
This does not belong in the guidelines. This description includes some kinds of comments that are not great, but is vague and broad enough to include many things that are absolutely fine. Moreover, the guidelines should not dictate the exact style and content of acceptable commenting. They should forbid truly problematic commenting in clear and succinct language.
I would also say that these are not really the Metafilter guidelines. They weren’t chosen by the community. These are loup’s guidelines and the guidelines are full of bullshit. Loup is using them to delete totally reasonable comments. It is ridiculous.
posted by snofoam at 3:28 AM on November 2 [12 favorites]
Speak from your own experience and perspective. Say things you genuinely mean (rather than playing devil's advocate, or saying bad things ironically). Avoid downplaying a problem just because it is not a problem for you. Avoid speaking on behalf of other people and discussing their experience like an academic topic; invite them to speak for themselves instead!
This does not belong in the guidelines. This description includes some kinds of comments that are not great, but is vague and broad enough to include many things that are absolutely fine. Moreover, the guidelines should not dictate the exact style and content of acceptable commenting. They should forbid truly problematic commenting in clear and succinct language.
I would also say that these are not really the Metafilter guidelines. They weren’t chosen by the community. These are loup’s guidelines and the guidelines are full of bullshit. Loup is using them to delete totally reasonable comments. It is ridiculous.
posted by snofoam at 3:28 AM on November 2 [12 favorites]
a sizable amount of members have been reasonably frustrated over the years
Every time I've talked to a member "face to face" I've found it to be enlightening and productive for both parties.
This is actually something easy to maintain for anyone
other members will feel compelled to push back against the criticism
I will refrain from making any claims about whether this is intentional or unintentional, but it is pretty clear that in this thread alone, loup has broken guidelines by repeatedly speaking on behalf of others. Even though I personally think this particular guideline — or shall I say misguideline? — is problematic, since loup has invoked it to delete other comments in this thread, I think loup's comments breaking the guideline should also be deleted. For consistency. Thanks!
posted by snofoam at 3:48 AM on November 2 [4 favorites]
Every time I've talked to a member "face to face" I've found it to be enlightening and productive for both parties.
This is actually something easy to maintain for anyone
other members will feel compelled to push back against the criticism
I will refrain from making any claims about whether this is intentional or unintentional, but it is pretty clear that in this thread alone, loup has broken guidelines by repeatedly speaking on behalf of others. Even though I personally think this particular guideline — or shall I say misguideline? — is problematic, since loup has invoked it to delete other comments in this thread, I think loup's comments breaking the guideline should also be deleted. For consistency. Thanks!
posted by snofoam at 3:48 AM on November 2 [4 favorites]
Well, I can see a purpose behind that guideline. But using it to delete a comment that just ended "That's what people are telling you" is ridiculous.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:58 AM on November 2 [3 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:58 AM on November 2 [3 favorites]
Speak for yourself, not others
lollllololool
oh noooo
posted by phunniemee at 4:06 AM on November 2 [2 favorites]
lollllololool
oh noooo
posted by phunniemee at 4:06 AM on November 2 [2 favorites]
Loup, it's great that you have experience with larger scale, more complex project management work. Those skills should still apply with some adaptation even for a much smaller and lower-budget organization. It sounds like you are feeling stuck and over-extended in a role that was more than you wanted to take on, so the below might be a bit 101-level but just in case:
- Identify the tasks and responsibilities required from your role to "keep the lights on" in the short term, and maintain and improve the health of the community in the long term. Prioritize keeping the lights on above everything else.
- Make an honest assessment of your skills and time available. Do the same with any staff reporting to you (not sure if people management is part of your role). Develop a work plan that is reasonable to deliver based on that capacity and stop taking on work that you will struggle to complete because you don't have time or it's too far outside your skillset. Defer, delegate, or decline tasks that do not fit or do not clearly support top work priorities and site health measures.
- Establish a regular cadence for communicating progress and stick to it. If a previous commitment can't be met, share a high-level update timely and reset expectations.
- Staff members should avoid discussing mental health challenges as part of business/project updates in this public forum. It's not professional and also, employees don't owe the user community that kind of scrutiny into their personal lives.
- Look for ways to streamline and standardize the decision-making processes used to set policy and select work. Not everything needs to be decided or operated by a committee. Not all demands crowd-sourced from the community need to be acted on (but if you do solicit community input it should at least be acknowledged).
- Identify and prioritize ways to streamline and standardize operations on the site. Choose off-the-shelf tools and templates over DIY as much as possible. At the end of the day this is a message board with a small active user base and there are many packaged solutions available for managing that. The important part of MetaFilter is the community, not the software.
- Prioritize consistency and transparency over high-touch, one-off personalized interactions. Be cautious of silent actions that can damage community trust (inconsistent comment deletion habits and the mod edit of phunniemee's comment discussed here being recent examples).
posted by 4rtemis at 5:05 AM on November 2 [9 favorites]
- Identify the tasks and responsibilities required from your role to "keep the lights on" in the short term, and maintain and improve the health of the community in the long term. Prioritize keeping the lights on above everything else.
- Make an honest assessment of your skills and time available. Do the same with any staff reporting to you (not sure if people management is part of your role). Develop a work plan that is reasonable to deliver based on that capacity and stop taking on work that you will struggle to complete because you don't have time or it's too far outside your skillset. Defer, delegate, or decline tasks that do not fit or do not clearly support top work priorities and site health measures.
- Establish a regular cadence for communicating progress and stick to it. If a previous commitment can't be met, share a high-level update timely and reset expectations.
- Staff members should avoid discussing mental health challenges as part of business/project updates in this public forum. It's not professional and also, employees don't owe the user community that kind of scrutiny into their personal lives.
- Look for ways to streamline and standardize the decision-making processes used to set policy and select work. Not everything needs to be decided or operated by a committee. Not all demands crowd-sourced from the community need to be acted on (but if you do solicit community input it should at least be acknowledged).
- Identify and prioritize ways to streamline and standardize operations on the site. Choose off-the-shelf tools and templates over DIY as much as possible. At the end of the day this is a message board with a small active user base and there are many packaged solutions available for managing that. The important part of MetaFilter is the community, not the software.
- Prioritize consistency and transparency over high-touch, one-off personalized interactions. Be cautious of silent actions that can damage community trust (inconsistent comment deletion habits and the mod edit of phunniemee's comment discussed here being recent examples).
zaixfeep: I find all the rules here somewhere between byzantine, Kafkaesque and talmudic. Posting here is often like trying to avoid touching the sides in Operation.This exactly and it's not benefitting the staff, the established community, or new joiners.
posted by 4rtemis at 5:05 AM on November 2 [9 favorites]
Identify and prioritize ways to streamline and standardize operations on the site. Choose off-the-shelf tools and templates over DIY as much as possible.
I'm confused about these comments, and others. And entirely new site is supposedly being built right now. I wish also instead of Pet Tax whatever or recipe books that the focus was on and communicated to the community about whatever is coming next because I feel like it's somewhere between a new site coming or the doors are closing.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:32 AM on November 2
I'm confused about these comments, and others. And entirely new site is supposedly being built right now. I wish also instead of Pet Tax whatever or recipe books that the focus was on and communicated to the community about whatever is coming next because I feel like it's somewhere between a new site coming or the doors are closing.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:32 AM on November 2
I don't expect it to ever change much because there is no organizing principle or benevolent leader present to helm the ship, and seemingly no urgency to establish one.
My activity here is no longer driven by the spurt of adrenaline I felt when I thought MetaFilter was going down for good a couple of years ago. The last financial update I read indicated that MetaFilter LLC has plenty of money to keep going as it currently its. There were no projections, either of "when will the money run out," or "what we would do with more money." No shade on anyone, truly, as it sounds like site staff are mostly focused on moving the site along for a good handoff to the nonprofit board, but it really seems more like the site is gliding through the waters at its own pace and will arrive where it does when it does.
That said, I feel like site leadership has been pretty clear about their mission to move the site along to a community-owned model. That's the principle and the benevolence.
I find all the rules here somewhere between byzantine, Kafkaesque and talmudic. Posting here is often like trying to avoid touching the sides in Operation.
Perfect. No notes.
Anyway, I decided to simply post when I feel I have something to share, to read and accept others' words remembering but not judging their own lived experiences, and to just let the rest go. If MeFi dies, I'll mourn for a time, and then I'll find somewhere else to hang out.
I try to hold to this mode of engagement.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:35 AM on November 2 [4 favorites]
My activity here is no longer driven by the spurt of adrenaline I felt when I thought MetaFilter was going down for good a couple of years ago. The last financial update I read indicated that MetaFilter LLC has plenty of money to keep going as it currently its. There were no projections, either of "when will the money run out," or "what we would do with more money." No shade on anyone, truly, as it sounds like site staff are mostly focused on moving the site along for a good handoff to the nonprofit board, but it really seems more like the site is gliding through the waters at its own pace and will arrive where it does when it does.
That said, I feel like site leadership has been pretty clear about their mission to move the site along to a community-owned model. That's the principle and the benevolence.
I find all the rules here somewhere between byzantine, Kafkaesque and talmudic. Posting here is often like trying to avoid touching the sides in Operation.
Perfect. No notes.
Anyway, I decided to simply post when I feel I have something to share, to read and accept others' words remembering but not judging their own lived experiences, and to just let the rest go. If MeFi dies, I'll mourn for a time, and then I'll find somewhere else to hang out.
I try to hold to this mode of engagement.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:35 AM on November 2 [4 favorites]
metatalk never ceases to amaze
it honestly doesn’t seem to be working for anyone
I'll echo this while making clear that I'm speaking to my own perception so as to not inadvertently speak on behalf of anyone else other than the many other people here and in previous similarly disastrous threads who've said some variation of the same thing
the continuous resentment and attrition these threads generate, whether you deem it minor in the scheme of things or not, is wildly unnecessary and makes the "holding pattern" stance grim -- isn't the idea of moving to the nonprofit, ideally, is that there's an enthusiastic user base and a functional website left to hand off no matter how long the process needs to take?
posted by Kybard at 10:07 AM on November 2 [5 favorites]
it honestly doesn’t seem to be working for anyone
I'll echo this while making clear that I'm speaking to my own perception so as to not inadvertently speak on behalf of anyone else other than the many other people here and in previous similarly disastrous threads who've said some variation of the same thing
the continuous resentment and attrition these threads generate, whether you deem it minor in the scheme of things or not, is wildly unnecessary and makes the "holding pattern" stance grim -- isn't the idea of moving to the nonprofit, ideally, is that there's an enthusiastic user base and a functional website left to hand off no matter how long the process needs to take?
posted by Kybard at 10:07 AM on November 2 [5 favorites]
Mod note: It cheapens a content warning to slap one on a goofy still frame of a melt nazi from a 40 year old PG movie.
If one feels that sa content warning is unnecessary for a particular image/movie that's totally fine. That means it wasn't for you.
The warning was for someone else, to give them a heads up about a potential trigger, and that's the important part of a content warning.
This may seem like a small point, but it's necessary one, IMO, as a moderator to push back on. If you're not bothered by a content warning great, ignore it, and let it (hopefully) assist those who may need or want it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:54 AM on November 2
If one feels that sa content warning is unnecessary for a particular image/movie that's totally fine. That means it wasn't for you.
The warning was for someone else, to give them a heads up about a potential trigger, and that's the important part of a content warning.
This may seem like a small point, but it's necessary one, IMO, as a moderator to push back on. If you're not bothered by a content warning great, ignore it, and let it (hopefully) assist those who may need or want it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:54 AM on November 2
Agree to disagree, which again, is why I made my meta very specific about what it was about. Go review the tapes.
posted by phunniemee at 10:57 AM on November 2 [12 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 10:57 AM on November 2 [12 favorites]
setting aside that re-opening this kind of discussion about an already-closed metatalk thread doesn't read as great judgment for the moderators, BB, I think your comment itself isn't a fair way to respond or frame the conversation, given that phunniemee made it very clear that their concern is not primarily the content warning itself but that the edit was made such that it looks like they're the one who put it there
but again, why re-open this conversation to this degree? phuniemee reiterated and specified in order to make it clear why a personal 1:1 chat didn't feel sufficient, not to re-litigate the decision-making.
posted by Kybard at 11:03 AM on November 2 [9 favorites]
but again, why re-open this conversation to this degree? phuniemee reiterated and specified in order to make it clear why a personal 1:1 chat didn't feel sufficient, not to re-litigate the decision-making.
posted by Kybard at 11:03 AM on November 2 [9 favorites]
Incredible. A case study on why public discourse is so important.
posted by bowbeacon at 11:06 AM on November 2 [4 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 11:06 AM on November 2 [4 favorites]
[This thread is closed to new comments and all participants have been banned.]
posted by glonous keming at 11:22 AM on November 2 [7 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 11:22 AM on November 2 [7 favorites]
Mod note: why re-open this conversation to this degree?]
Because a comment was made in this thread that indicated the OP believes using a content warning on that particular "goofy still frame" was not a good use of a CW, hence the moderation clarification. Eg. content warnings are important, but not everyone may agreed on when and where they are used. That's fine, but they're still important enough to use.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 12:06 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
Because a comment was made in this thread that indicated the OP believes using a content warning on that particular "goofy still frame" was not a good use of a CW, hence the moderation clarification. Eg. content warnings are important, but not everyone may agreed on when and where they are used. That's fine, but they're still important enough to use.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 12:06 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
Maybe content warnings could be done 1-on-1 over memail for those who want them.
posted by snofoam at 12:14 PM on November 2 [8 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 12:14 PM on November 2 [8 favorites]
Important to use...for old kids movies, apparently.
Why are you acting like the context for this isn't someone (you) editing said comment to add a CW as if it were phunniemee's own words? "Are CWs useful" is basically irrelevant and a strange thing to make this thread about.
posted by sagc at 12:15 PM on November 2 [8 favorites]
Why are you acting like the context for this isn't someone (you) editing said comment to add a CW as if it were phunniemee's own words? "Are CWs useful" is basically irrelevant and a strange thing to make this thread about.
posted by sagc at 12:15 PM on November 2 [8 favorites]
Mod note: Here's a note about this thread:
Several comments have been made calling for a moderator to resign. Those comments are considered harassment and we want to make it clear that's not acceptable. Do not do that on this site and going forward, if it is done it may result in a ban.
To be clear, it's totally fine to criticise a moderator's actions or inactions, or the team as a whole (please keep it constructive). But publically calling for them to resign is not. If anyone does feel that's necessary, they're welcome to take it up with management, but otherwise those types of specific comments are not acceptable.
This is where moderators work and similar to other places of work, publicly calling for employees to resign would not be tolerated.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 12:17 PM on November 2 [8 favorites]
Several comments have been made calling for a moderator to resign. Those comments are considered harassment and we want to make it clear that's not acceptable. Do not do that on this site and going forward, if it is done it may result in a ban.
To be clear, it's totally fine to criticise a moderator's actions or inactions, or the team as a whole (please keep it constructive). But publically calling for them to resign is not. If anyone does feel that's necessary, they're welcome to take it up with management, but otherwise those types of specific comments are not acceptable.
This is where moderators work and similar to other places of work, publicly calling for employees to resign would not be tolerated.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 12:17 PM on November 2 [8 favorites]
Thanks for your thoughts on the content warning MeTa, that cleared some things up.
I am confused about the deletion of these three comments. They apparently broke the 'speak for youself, not for others' guideline. That seems like a rather....creative interpretation of the rule, no?
posted by Diskeater at 12:28 PM on November 2 [4 favorites]
I am confused about the deletion of these three comments. They apparently broke the 'speak for youself, not for others' guideline. That seems like a rather....creative interpretation of the rule, no?
posted by Diskeater at 12:28 PM on November 2 [4 favorites]
Harassment? Come on.
posted by bowbeacon at 12:32 PM on November 2 [19 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 12:32 PM on November 2 [19 favorites]
It seems way more like harassment to send someone a private message saying they should resign? I’m not clear on who else is management besides loup.
This really feels very defensive, which is understandable, but I don’t know that circling the wagons in this particular way is the right way to go.
Frankly, if this much energy, moderation effort (and clarity on standards for commenting) were being brought to the site in other contexts, it would be an improvement, and that’s frustrating. Please direct this energy towards more constructive site management.
posted by knobknosher at 12:33 PM on November 2 [14 favorites]
This really feels very defensive, which is understandable, but I don’t know that circling the wagons in this particular way is the right way to go.
Frankly, if this much energy, moderation effort (and clarity on standards for commenting) were being brought to the site in other contexts, it would be an improvement, and that’s frustrating. Please direct this energy towards more constructive site management.
posted by knobknosher at 12:33 PM on November 2 [14 favorites]
Several comments have been made calling for a moderator to resign. Those comments are considered harassment and we want to make it clear that's not acceptable.
this is absurd.
If anyone does feel that's necessary, they're welcome to take it up with management
that's exactly what they're doing! loup is management. saying it here contextualizes it as criticism instead of harassment!
posted by Kybard at 12:34 PM on November 2 [27 favorites]
this is absurd.
If anyone does feel that's necessary, they're welcome to take it up with management
that's exactly what they're doing! loup is management. saying it here contextualizes it as criticism instead of harassment!
posted by Kybard at 12:34 PM on November 2 [27 favorites]
that's exactly what they're doing! loup is management. saying it here contextualizes it as criticism instead of harassment!
Yes, this is a better way to say what I meant.
posted by knobknosher at 12:35 PM on November 2 [6 favorites]
Yes, this is a better way to say what I meant.
posted by knobknosher at 12:35 PM on November 2 [6 favorites]
Yeah, but why is loup still here?
You know, I’ve wondered the same in the past couple of months.
I don't think that suggesting the manager step down is harassment. But if it is, can loup be banned for acknowledging that this is something to consider?
posted by snofoam at 12:42 PM on November 2 [8 favorites]
You know, I’ve wondered the same in the past couple of months.
I don't think that suggesting the manager step down is harassment. But if it is, can loup be banned for acknowledging that this is something to consider?
posted by snofoam at 12:42 PM on November 2 [8 favorites]
Mod note: that's exactly what they're doing! loup is management. saying it here contextualizes it as criticism instead of harassment!
This is very specifically about calling for loup to resign, not about having criticisms of them. The former is considered harassment, full stop, and may result in a ban. The latter is perfectly fine for loup or any staff member.
To use a rough analogy (while remembering that no analogy is perfect), if someone came to your place of work, demanding you resign, they would be asked to leave for harassing an employee and/or directed to upper management to discuss the issue.
So, if folks think a moderator (besides loup) or developer should resign, contact loup. If folks think loup should resign, contact Jessamyn. In either case, please be constructive and straightforward as possible with your rationale/reasons.
Again, criticism is perfectly fine of loup or any other person that works at MeFi (including me). Publically calling for them to resign is not.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 1:02 PM on November 2 [3 favorites]
This is very specifically about calling for loup to resign, not about having criticisms of them. The former is considered harassment, full stop, and may result in a ban. The latter is perfectly fine for loup or any staff member.
To use a rough analogy (while remembering that no analogy is perfect), if someone came to your place of work, demanding you resign, they would be asked to leave for harassing an employee and/or directed to upper management to discuss the issue.
So, if folks think a moderator (besides loup) or developer should resign, contact loup. If folks think loup should resign, contact Jessamyn. In either case, please be constructive and straightforward as possible with your rationale/reasons.
Again, criticism is perfectly fine of loup or any other person that works at MeFi (including me). Publically calling for them to resign is not.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 1:02 PM on November 2 [3 favorites]
If I suggest my senator, the CEO of a corporation, or the coach of a professional sports team resign, that is not harassment, and it's absurd to claim it is. It might be harassment for one of the other mods or Jessamyn to call for loup's resignation, but they are coworkers who perhaps speak for the site. We don't work here, we are just interested parties, and should be able to offer our opinions about bad policies or lack of meaningful action up to and including saying someone should go. I'm confident it doesn't feel great to hear, but it's not the userbase's responsibility to make sure ppl feel good about how they are performing their jobs.
posted by donnagirl at 1:03 PM on November 2 [25 favorites]
posted by donnagirl at 1:03 PM on November 2 [25 favorites]
The calls are a response to a person failing to follow through on promised actions in the course of their job. The failures affect the community, and specifically the community members who care about the promises. This is at least the second time in the course of this thread that members have been urged to take their concerns to email. Discussing such matters in private seems to counter the entire purpose of a message board.
posted by CtrlAltD at 1:09 PM on November 2 [15 favorites]
posted by CtrlAltD at 1:09 PM on November 2 [15 favorites]
After much consideration, I am resigned to the belief that the site would be better served by a manager that was more suited to the needs of the site as it is, in lieu of the current management situation, which seems unable to fulfill the site's needs.
posted by snofoam at 1:10 PM on November 2 [10 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 1:10 PM on November 2 [10 favorites]
I want to be very clear that saying something will not be tolerated is a statement about policy. Calling that behavior harassment is an accusation. I disagree vehemently with the policy but understand it to some extent.
However, saying that people are engaging in harassment is an absolutely unacceptable accusation. Harassment is serious and is not synonymous with behavior that is upsetting or unwelcome.
For the record, I’ve had people suggest I should be fired before. It sucks to hear but it’s not harassment unless there’s something more going on.
Also, frankly, I’d rather have someone tell me I should quit than to have them email my boss saying I should get fired. Maybe that’s because my boss might actually fire me if multiple people give extremely bad and credible feedback about my performance.
posted by knobknosher at 1:19 PM on November 2 [15 favorites]
However, saying that people are engaging in harassment is an absolutely unacceptable accusation. Harassment is serious and is not synonymous with behavior that is upsetting or unwelcome.
For the record, I’ve had people suggest I should be fired before. It sucks to hear but it’s not harassment unless there’s something more going on.
Also, frankly, I’d rather have someone tell me I should quit than to have them email my boss saying I should get fired. Maybe that’s because my boss might actually fire me if multiple people give extremely bad and credible feedback about my performance.
posted by knobknosher at 1:19 PM on November 2 [15 favorites]
This is very specifically about calling for loup to resign, not about having criticisms of them.
yes I understood that. it was, very specifically, what I was calling absurd, as well as the workplace analogy, as others have already explained.
if you really want a workplace analogy, then this response seems to me much more analogous to a labor relations team doing its grim, obstinate, union-busting work on behalf of corporate management. (I think that analogy is also a little absurd, but still much more fitting, for the record.)
posted by Kybard at 1:33 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
yes I understood that. it was, very specifically, what I was calling absurd, as well as the workplace analogy, as others have already explained.
if you really want a workplace analogy, then this response seems to me much more analogous to a labor relations team doing its grim, obstinate, union-busting work on behalf of corporate management. (I think that analogy is also a little absurd, but still much more fitting, for the record.)
posted by Kybard at 1:33 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
The entire moderation staff should resign and hold an immediate community-wide election for their replacements. You can hire them as employees to avoid legal issues with volunteering if you want.
posted by april of time at 1:39 PM on November 2 [13 favorites]
posted by april of time at 1:39 PM on November 2 [13 favorites]
It is absolutely absurd to say that calling for the resignation of leadership that seems to be (generously) completely overwhelmed by the duties and unable to perform them, is harassment. I am appalled at the willingness to threaten members of this site for pointing out the negligence of current management. The work isn't happening, which is arguably the worst part. But when things do happen, they belie a lack of judgment that makes the situation worse. Deleting random comments, adding "content warnings" to stupid links from old movies, trying to hide moderation conversations in private threads, it's unprofessional behavior that feels like the death knell for the site if it isn't corrected quickly. I completely support the calls for the staff to resign.
posted by ch1x0r at 1:43 PM on November 2 [17 favorites]
posted by ch1x0r at 1:43 PM on November 2 [17 favorites]
Mod note: Hey, I realize things are heated at the moment (and have been for some time) and that is acknowledged. People are very justifiably angry and upset for a number of valid reasons. Because, here we are, yet again, in another contentious MetaTalk post, where the community is disappointed yet again, and quite angry about being disappointed and let down, yet again.
There's no quick fix here. Various things related to Fundraiser are happening, will happen, or have changed slightly. We're gonna finish it out in some form or fashion and continue working to something better as the painfully slow transition to non-profit continues.
It sucks, yet again, and I'm genuinely sorry for that.
That said, it is good to report that brook horse did send in some very constructive suggestions last night. That's a good step, they'll be looked by those higher up and if I haven't heard anything by the end of the day on Wednesday, I'll inquire about what's going on and report back if no one else has by then.
I'm around for a several more hours if there are some general questions. Can't promise I'll have answers for every one or even satisfying ones, but here we are.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 1:44 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
There's no quick fix here. Various things related to Fundraiser are happening, will happen, or have changed slightly. We're gonna finish it out in some form or fashion and continue working to something better as the painfully slow transition to non-profit continues.
It sucks, yet again, and I'm genuinely sorry for that.
That said, it is good to report that brook horse did send in some very constructive suggestions last night. That's a good step, they'll be looked by those higher up and if I haven't heard anything by the end of the day on Wednesday, I'll inquire about what's going on and report back if no one else has by then.
I'm around for a several more hours if there are some general questions. Can't promise I'll have answers for every one or even satisfying ones, but here we are.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 1:44 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
From an earlier comment:
I find all the rules here somewhere between byzantine, Kafkaesque and talmudic. Posting here is often like trying to avoid touching the sides in Operation.
To which I would add the biz above about criticism being okay but calling publicly for resignations not being okay. Brandon Blatcher, I mean this sincerely: there is simply no way I would ever intuit that as a rule for a normal website. Definitely not one as ostensibly community-driven as MetaFilter. If that's a policy decision that you came up with on the fly, I urge you strongly to revisit that topic with site leadership and think about walking it back. I don't like the idea of anyone here being harassed (loup definitely included), but I would not characterize this as harassment. Perhaps something for the org to reconsider once in nonprofit-land, but it's real weird.
posted by cupcakeninja at 1:51 PM on November 2 [17 favorites]
I find all the rules here somewhere between byzantine, Kafkaesque and talmudic. Posting here is often like trying to avoid touching the sides in Operation.
To which I would add the biz above about criticism being okay but calling publicly for resignations not being okay. Brandon Blatcher, I mean this sincerely: there is simply no way I would ever intuit that as a rule for a normal website. Definitely not one as ostensibly community-driven as MetaFilter. If that's a policy decision that you came up with on the fly, I urge you strongly to revisit that topic with site leadership and think about walking it back. I don't like the idea of anyone here being harassed (loup definitely included), but I would not characterize this as harassment. Perhaps something for the org to reconsider once in nonprofit-land, but it's real weird.
posted by cupcakeninja at 1:51 PM on November 2 [17 favorites]
Because, here we are, yet again, in another contentious MetaTalk post, where the community is disappointed yet again, and quite angry about being disappointed and let down, yet again.
When there are severe recurring problems that seem impossible to solve, some organizations bring in new management to break the cycle and start rebuilding trust. Maybe that is the kind of constructive action we can consider here?
posted by snofoam at 1:52 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]
When there are severe recurring problems that seem impossible to solve, some organizations bring in new management to break the cycle and start rebuilding trust. Maybe that is the kind of constructive action we can consider here?
posted by snofoam at 1:52 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]
It seems like the biggest need at the present is not for more surveys and studies, but for responsive moderation and follow up on the things already promised. Why start more climate-related projects during the transition? It makes no sense to stretch the already limited resources of the higher ups with new projects.
posted by CtrlAltD at 1:52 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]
posted by CtrlAltD at 1:52 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]
Do the mods not feel that there have been any constructive comments in this or any past threads? Why skip every other suggestion in favour of that were emailed privately and that nobody else knows about?
This is getting beyond self-parody.
posted by sagc at 1:58 PM on November 2 [10 favorites]
This is getting beyond self-parody.
posted by sagc at 1:58 PM on November 2 [10 favorites]
Mod note: Hey, I realize things are heated at the moment (and have been for some time) and that is acknowledged. People are very justifiably angry and upset for a number of valid reasons. Because, here we are, yet again, in another contentious MetaTalk post, where the community is disappointed yet again, and quite angry about being disappointed and let down, yet again.
in the interest of not speaking on others' behalf, I will say that whatever you thought this was, it reads to me as speaking on other people's behalf. it reads to me as condescending, dismissive, and insulting. it reads, to me, as an attempt at de-escalation not of the actual concerns and irritations raised here but instead of the momentary discomfort management feels at being asked to face them openly.
"things" are not "heated" in some vague, we're-all-at-fault fashion. the calls for resignation are not irrational outbursts of emotion.
posted by Kybard at 2:00 PM on November 2 [21 favorites]
in the interest of not speaking on others' behalf, I will say that whatever you thought this was, it reads to me as speaking on other people's behalf. it reads to me as condescending, dismissive, and insulting. it reads, to me, as an attempt at de-escalation not of the actual concerns and irritations raised here but instead of the momentary discomfort management feels at being asked to face them openly.
"things" are not "heated" in some vague, we're-all-at-fault fashion. the calls for resignation are not irrational outbursts of emotion.
posted by Kybard at 2:00 PM on November 2 [21 favorites]
Respectfully, why report back publicly about suggestions received privately? No user but the one who submitted them even knows what they were.
posted by riverlife at 2:00 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]
posted by riverlife at 2:00 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]
Brandon, how many people and who have been given a ban based on this new policy?
I’m seeing at least two bans.
posted by knobknosher at 2:22 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]
I’m seeing at least two bans.
posted by knobknosher at 2:22 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]
Mod note: If that's a policy decision that you came up with on the fly, I urge you strongly to revisit that topic with site leadership and think about walking it back.
The "calling for resignations could result in a ban" is something that was decided with the higher ups. I do happen to agree it though, believing that it's good to have a few bright lights on how staff is treated, especially going forward.
it reads, to me, as an attempt at de-escalation not of the actual concerns and irritations raised here but instead of the momentary discomfort management feels at being asked to face them openly
I am absolutely trying to de-escalate things a little bit in the hopes of fixing things, while very much acknowledging there's plenty to be mad about, no question.
Respectfully, why report back publicly about suggestions received privately? No user but the one who submitted them even knows what they were.
Am trying to keep the community in the know about some good things and any results from them and some positive steps forward.
In my ideal world, management figures out how and when to proceed on brook horse's suggestions (and there's not much reason in my book to delay them), and then mention said suggestions, or brook horse mentions them or even posts the suggestions now if they so choose, but they absolutely should not be pressured to do so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:23 PM on November 2 [2 favorites]
The "calling for resignations could result in a ban" is something that was decided with the higher ups. I do happen to agree it though, believing that it's good to have a few bright lights on how staff is treated, especially going forward.
it reads, to me, as an attempt at de-escalation not of the actual concerns and irritations raised here but instead of the momentary discomfort management feels at being asked to face them openly
I am absolutely trying to de-escalate things a little bit in the hopes of fixing things, while very much acknowledging there's plenty to be mad about, no question.
Respectfully, why report back publicly about suggestions received privately? No user but the one who submitted them even knows what they were.
Am trying to keep the community in the know about some good things and any results from them and some positive steps forward.
In my ideal world, management figures out how and when to proceed on brook horse's suggestions (and there's not much reason in my book to delay them), and then mention said suggestions, or brook horse mentions them or even posts the suggestions now if they so choose, but they absolutely should not be pressured to do so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:23 PM on November 2 [2 favorites]
Management has decided that calling for management’s resignation is a bannable offense. Ok.
posted by hototogisu at 2:30 PM on November 2 [20 favorites]
posted by hototogisu at 2:30 PM on November 2 [20 favorites]
how and when to proceed on brook horse's suggestions (and there's not much reason in my book to delay them), and then mention said suggestions, or brook horse mentions them or even posts the suggestions now if they so choose, but they absolutely should not be pressured to do so
I feel like I'm on glue. brook horse tried to discuss their suggestions here and was told to message privately! The endless and needless layers of obfuscation about every damn thing are exhausting.
posted by phunniemee at 2:30 PM on November 2 [22 favorites]
I feel like I'm on glue. brook horse tried to discuss their suggestions here and was told to message privately! The endless and needless layers of obfuscation about every damn thing are exhausting.
posted by phunniemee at 2:30 PM on November 2 [22 favorites]
Management has decided that calling for management’s resignation is a bannable offense.
Hmmmm what does that remind me of? Probably best not to say.
posted by donnagirl at 2:33 PM on November 2 [2 favorites]
Hmmmm what does that remind me of? Probably best not to say.
posted by donnagirl at 2:33 PM on November 2 [2 favorites]
In my ideal world, management figures out how and when to proceed on brook horse's suggestions (and there's not much reason in my book to delay them), and then mention said suggestions, or brook horse mentions them or even posts the suggestions now if they so choose, but they absolutely should not be pressured to do so.
Are you seriously implying that (1) this is primarily brook horse’s responsibility and (2) that we’d “pressure” them???? People have been extremely supportive of the people actually stepping up and getting shit done around here. And ultimately this shit is management’s goddamned job.
Unfuckingbelievable that the main meaningful action we’ve gotten from “management” in who knows how long is to accuse people of harassment and toss out bans.
posted by knobknosher at 2:34 PM on November 2 [10 favorites]
Are you seriously implying that (1) this is primarily brook horse’s responsibility and (2) that we’d “pressure” them???? People have been extremely supportive of the people actually stepping up and getting shit done around here. And ultimately this shit is management’s goddamned job.
Unfuckingbelievable that the main meaningful action we’ve gotten from “management” in who knows how long is to accuse people of harassment and toss out bans.
posted by knobknosher at 2:34 PM on November 2 [10 favorites]
The "calling for resignations could result in a ban" is something that was decided with the higher ups.
This is only a slightly more sophisticated take on criticism than mine, at the age of three, when I told my mother "if you hurt my baby feelings, you have to go live with grandma."
posted by paper scissors sock at 2:37 PM on November 2 [3 favorites]
This is only a slightly more sophisticated take on criticism than mine, at the age of three, when I told my mother "if you hurt my baby feelings, you have to go live with grandma."
posted by paper scissors sock at 2:37 PM on November 2 [3 favorites]
How many temporary or permanent bans were handed out as a result of this policy change today? (It was clearly a change, because it was discussed up the very short leadership chain, and there are reams of evidence that it hasn't been policy in the past, so don't try to say it's not new)
posted by donnagirl at 2:38 PM on November 2 [6 favorites]
posted by donnagirl at 2:38 PM on November 2 [6 favorites]
This is a tiny messageboard not a multinational corporation. Who is "management" and "the higher ups"? There's jessamyn, loup and Brandon Blatcher involved. Is loup "management" and jessamyn "the higher ups?" Are "management" and "the higher ups" both loup?
Generally one thing management has to do is take responsibility for a decision. You're not much of a manager if you're too cowardly to admit making a decision.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:42 PM on November 2 [17 favorites]
Generally one thing management has to do is take responsibility for a decision. You're not much of a manager if you're too cowardly to admit making a decision.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:42 PM on November 2 [17 favorites]
For transparency (and not under pressure, I was planning on sharing anyway), my first and main proposal to the mods was offering to go through recent Metatalks and pull out key points of already provided feedback and put it in the feedback document linked by Brandon Blatcher earlier in this thread, as it currently only has feedback starting on Nov 1st. I would not be making any new suggestions or doing any surveys or studies etc.; I'm only offering to take what has already been repeatedly shared and put it in one place. The best time to start tracking user feedback was ten years ago but the second best time is today, etc. One thing I specified is that this project should only be started if staff will be willing and able to immediately start implementing changes based on the feedback, because I don't think it's useful to gather this information if it isn't going to be acted on.
Because staff burnout has been cited as a barrier to making change, I also offered to pull together some materials on burnout and building resilience. For a little more specific background, I have worked in service settings where employee burnout led to mistreatment of the community they were trying to serve. I have previously been tasked with intervening on the downward spiral where 1) staff action or inaction builds increasing resentment and mistrust which 2) increases burnout and feelings of helplessness and thus 3) staff's capacity to handle the growing issues dwindles further and further. If that offer is taken up, I would be providing some ideas for immediate and long-term steps that can be taken by employees and the organization both to reduce burnout and to stop burnout from causing further damage to the community.
That's the full extent of my suggestions. If staff moves forward with either proposal, the feedback for the first suggestion would all be public in the document Brandon Blatcher posted. For the second proposal, I'm happy to share those materials (whatever they end up being, as I haven't pulled together anything specific yet) in whatever format makes sense as well.
posted by brook horse at 2:43 PM on November 2 [17 favorites]
Because staff burnout has been cited as a barrier to making change, I also offered to pull together some materials on burnout and building resilience. For a little more specific background, I have worked in service settings where employee burnout led to mistreatment of the community they were trying to serve. I have previously been tasked with intervening on the downward spiral where 1) staff action or inaction builds increasing resentment and mistrust which 2) increases burnout and feelings of helplessness and thus 3) staff's capacity to handle the growing issues dwindles further and further. If that offer is taken up, I would be providing some ideas for immediate and long-term steps that can be taken by employees and the organization both to reduce burnout and to stop burnout from causing further damage to the community.
That's the full extent of my suggestions. If staff moves forward with either proposal, the feedback for the first suggestion would all be public in the document Brandon Blatcher posted. For the second proposal, I'm happy to share those materials (whatever they end up being, as I haven't pulled together anything specific yet) in whatever format makes sense as well.
posted by brook horse at 2:43 PM on November 2 [17 favorites]
Only speaking for myself,* brook horse, but I hope you’re not taking this stuff to heart as a criticism of your kind offer to contribute. I appreciate that you’re trying your best to help out in a challenging situation.
*I’d say this anyway but it’s absurd to say this or risk getting my comment deleted…if that is the actual rule and not a fig leaf
posted by knobknosher at 2:48 PM on November 2 [2 favorites]
*I’d say this anyway but it’s absurd to say this or risk getting my comment deleted…if that is the actual rule and not a fig leaf
posted by knobknosher at 2:48 PM on November 2 [2 favorites]
Good suggestions! Wild that the mods are so excited about them, given that the idea of "listening to users" isn't exactly novel - kind of you, although it shouldn't be necessary, of taking that labour off of mods who clearly aren't doing it.
posted by sagc at 2:51 PM on November 2 [3 favorites]
posted by sagc at 2:51 PM on November 2 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Are you seriously implying that (1) this is primarily brook horse’s responsibility
Absolutely not.
and (2) that we’d “pressure” them????
It's entirely possible that someone on a semi-public forum on the internet might pressure them and was asking that people don't, that was my point.
How many temporary or permanent bans were handed out as a result of this policy change today?
Two 24 hour bans, one for snofoam and one for april of time. They were both emailed about it.
Is loup "management" and jessamyn "the higher ups?"
Yes.
kind of you, although it shouldn't be necessary, of taking that labour off of mods who clearly aren't doing it
I view brook horse doing this work and being paid for it out the fund as being a quick, straight forward, and public way of this money being put to use and hopes it encourages users and management to continue using it. If the future we should definitely post these jobs on the Jobs site, while publicizing them in MetaTalk also.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:00 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
Absolutely not.
and (2) that we’d “pressure” them????
It's entirely possible that someone on a semi-public forum on the internet might pressure them and was asking that people don't, that was my point.
How many temporary or permanent bans were handed out as a result of this policy change today?
Two 24 hour bans, one for snofoam and one for april of time. They were both emailed about it.
Is loup "management" and jessamyn "the higher ups?"
Yes.
kind of you, although it shouldn't be necessary, of taking that labour off of mods who clearly aren't doing it
I view brook horse doing this work and being paid for it out the fund as being a quick, straight forward, and public way of this money being put to use and hopes it encourages users and management to continue using it. If the future we should definitely post these jobs on the Jobs site, while publicizing them in MetaTalk also.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:00 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
It's entirely possible that someone on a semi-public forum on the internet might pressure them and was asking that people don't, that was my point.
You did this in the context of having banned multiple people for alleged harassment in the last few hours. Hence me taking offense at you bringing this up as a possibility when there has been no indication whatsoever that anyone would “pressure” someone.
posted by knobknosher at 3:05 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]
You did this in the context of having banned multiple people for alleged harassment in the last few hours. Hence me taking offense at you bringing this up as a possibility when there has been no indication whatsoever that anyone would “pressure” someone.
posted by knobknosher at 3:05 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]
It might be useful to step back a bit and get some perspective on the quarter century (!) of administrative debt that led us here. To make a long story very short:
mathowie founded the site as a one-man show, hiring jessamyn, cortex, and others as it grew. Revenue peaked in 2012, supporting 24/7 coverage with generous pay and benefits. Engagement and responsiveness were very high.
Then Google made algorithm changes that tanked traffic and revenue 40% overnight. mathowie tried and failed to address this privately, then announced surprise layoffs in 2014, sparking the first big round of community fundraising.
This all took a toll, and mathowie stepped down for cortex in 2015, citing stress-induced health issues. The ad market continued to contract, shrinking mod coverage. cortex struggled with the business end while getting mired in heated MetaTalk fights, eventually becoming wary of big changes and avoidant of site updates.
Facing burnout, cortex stepped down in 2022 in favor of a community-led Steering Committee. Meanwhile, jessamyn became the on-paper owner while loup became a temporary part-time caretaker for admin stuff.
The SC immediately ran into a cash crunch and spent months on a multi-prong fundraiser, which was successful but took focus away from needed organizational changes. Legal questions over volunteers for an LLC put an abrupt end to that approach in 2023.
jessamyn consulted with her lawyer and decided to go the non-profit route late last year, which had been ruled out under cortex. A rotating group of users worked with a lawyer on hashing out the new structure: an elected board working with the community on budgeting and policy, an executive director for handling admin/bizops, and on-call mods for enforcing site rules as coverage allows. We're near the end of that process now.
The overall story I see is an organization that grew haphazardly on easy money, and then struggled to adapt as resources shrank. The old model of MetaTalk + a single private owner with responsibility for both business and moderation decisions burned out multiple people and was not compatible with community governance. The nonprofit aims to address this by having an ED focused on operations and strategy while moderation questions are dealt with by the board and community in a more structured way. Spread the decisionmaking power around and offer more opportunities for people to contribute their own expertise, rather than routing everything through a single bottleneck overseeing interminable MeTas.
The problem for loup is that for the last two years of this bumpy transition, they've been serving for much longer than they'd thought in a role (fundraising and strategic leadership) that they weren't originally hired to do and without the skillset or hours to do it. There's an expectation of the same kind of engagement and responsiveness as in the past that simply can't be met by a single part-time admin. They've done the job to an extent, supporting the NP transition, posting regular site updates, launching two fundraisers and exploring a long-overdue site redesign, on top of regular moderation work. But despite trying to set healthy boundaries, it's been a recipe for low morale, burnout, missing self-imposed goals, and becoming reluctant to engage with insistent and sometimes derisive questions... just like cortex (and to a lesser extent mathowie).
loup is not lazy or incompetent -- every interaction I've had with them has shown them to be thoughtful and caring about the community's welfare. They're just stuck in a stressful, poorly-conceived role that isn't working and hasn't worked for years now. That's in the process of changing, and in the near future there will be ample opportunity to contribute your own effort and ideas on anything you think the site could be doing better. But in the meantime, please show loup some grace for sticking it out for this long in a hard situation. Despite any missteps, they've been one of the primary drivers keeping the site running and are an essential part of the transition.
posted by Rhaomi at 3:07 PM on November 2 [28 favorites]
mathowie founded the site as a one-man show, hiring jessamyn, cortex, and others as it grew. Revenue peaked in 2012, supporting 24/7 coverage with generous pay and benefits. Engagement and responsiveness were very high.
Then Google made algorithm changes that tanked traffic and revenue 40% overnight. mathowie tried and failed to address this privately, then announced surprise layoffs in 2014, sparking the first big round of community fundraising.
This all took a toll, and mathowie stepped down for cortex in 2015, citing stress-induced health issues. The ad market continued to contract, shrinking mod coverage. cortex struggled with the business end while getting mired in heated MetaTalk fights, eventually becoming wary of big changes and avoidant of site updates.
Facing burnout, cortex stepped down in 2022 in favor of a community-led Steering Committee. Meanwhile, jessamyn became the on-paper owner while loup became a temporary part-time caretaker for admin stuff.
The SC immediately ran into a cash crunch and spent months on a multi-prong fundraiser, which was successful but took focus away from needed organizational changes. Legal questions over volunteers for an LLC put an abrupt end to that approach in 2023.
jessamyn consulted with her lawyer and decided to go the non-profit route late last year, which had been ruled out under cortex. A rotating group of users worked with a lawyer on hashing out the new structure: an elected board working with the community on budgeting and policy, an executive director for handling admin/bizops, and on-call mods for enforcing site rules as coverage allows. We're near the end of that process now.
The overall story I see is an organization that grew haphazardly on easy money, and then struggled to adapt as resources shrank. The old model of MetaTalk + a single private owner with responsibility for both business and moderation decisions burned out multiple people and was not compatible with community governance. The nonprofit aims to address this by having an ED focused on operations and strategy while moderation questions are dealt with by the board and community in a more structured way. Spread the decisionmaking power around and offer more opportunities for people to contribute their own expertise, rather than routing everything through a single bottleneck overseeing interminable MeTas.
The problem for loup is that for the last two years of this bumpy transition, they've been serving for much longer than they'd thought in a role (fundraising and strategic leadership) that they weren't originally hired to do and without the skillset or hours to do it. There's an expectation of the same kind of engagement and responsiveness as in the past that simply can't be met by a single part-time admin. They've done the job to an extent, supporting the NP transition, posting regular site updates, launching two fundraisers and exploring a long-overdue site redesign, on top of regular moderation work. But despite trying to set healthy boundaries, it's been a recipe for low morale, burnout, missing self-imposed goals, and becoming reluctant to engage with insistent and sometimes derisive questions... just like cortex (and to a lesser extent mathowie).
loup is not lazy or incompetent -- every interaction I've had with them has shown them to be thoughtful and caring about the community's welfare. They're just stuck in a stressful, poorly-conceived role that isn't working and hasn't worked for years now. That's in the process of changing, and in the near future there will be ample opportunity to contribute your own effort and ideas on anything you think the site could be doing better. But in the meantime, please show loup some grace for sticking it out for this long in a hard situation. Despite any missteps, they've been one of the primary drivers keeping the site running and are an essential part of the transition.
posted by Rhaomi at 3:07 PM on November 2 [28 favorites]
The endless and needless layers of obfuscation about every damn thing are exhausting.
I knew some tech upgrades were in the works but I didn’t realize the site was transitioning to Kafka!
posted by atoxyl at 3:11 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
I knew some tech upgrades were in the works but I didn’t realize the site was transitioning to Kafka!
posted by atoxyl at 3:11 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
there is in fact an upper limit on grace, and mods are... not behaving with grace toward users in this thread, to say the least.
posted by sagc at 3:12 PM on November 2 [10 favorites]
posted by sagc at 3:12 PM on November 2 [10 favorites]
The members banned for calling for mod resignations need to be unbanned immediately.
posted by hototogisu at 3:18 PM on November 2 [15 favorites]
posted by hototogisu at 3:18 PM on November 2 [15 favorites]
Quis expullet ipsos expulsores?
posted by phunniemee at 3:29 PM on November 2 [7 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 3:29 PM on November 2 [7 favorites]
Cool, so when are we going to get a final(?) update on the fundraiser that was going to run through September or October or indefinitely(?). And how much work has been done or is left to do on the new site beta test, the cookbook, the pet tax wall, and the podcast?
It has been almost three months since the start of fundraiser month. How much paid staff time has been invested into running a fundraiser that is for paying the staff?
posted by Diskeater at 3:31 PM on November 2 [4 favorites]
It has been almost three months since the start of fundraiser month. How much paid staff time has been invested into running a fundraiser that is for paying the staff?
posted by Diskeater at 3:31 PM on November 2 [4 favorites]
Cool, so when are we going to get a final(?) update on the fundraiser that was going to run through September or October or indefinitely(?
from an earlier comment by loup:
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:47 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
from an earlier comment by loup:
Some Quick updates:Any other information will have to wait until Monday afternoon or so, when loup is back on duty.
– Pet tax wall is ready and I’m making sure the printing and shipping is all set (thank you bowbeacon for the suggestion, I was planning to use Printful, but will look into RedBubble today as well).
– The Cookbook has been sent to a community member for help with design and editing.
– The AMA podcast is scheduled to be recorded November 11. We only got 7 questions in total so we will skip the voting part but those questions are interesting enough to proceed. If you still want to ask anything (yes, anything) drop your questions here.
– The halloween Gala post is up here.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:47 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
I think there are two possibilities here, and since I'm not behind the scenes, I don't and can't know which is the reality.
1) There's just too much work for the position. This could be true in a few ways. Maybe there's more work behind the scenes than is apparent. On the surface, it looks like you've got 20 hours of work, but the reality is that you've got 40 hours of work. Or maybe there isn't much work, but there are also very few hours. Like, you really do only have 20 hours of work...but you've only got 10 hours to do it.
I find this unlikely, but I really don't know. If this is the case, then MeFi needs to consider increasing Loup's hours and paying them more. This will increase MeFi's expenses, so Jessamyn needs to think long and hard about it. If Loup can't do more hours because of their main job, then one approach would be to hire another manager and they could divide their duties. Having two people do one job is inefficient, though, so a better choice would be to hire a full-time manager. Of course, Loup should continue to keep their job and get paid, but the new person should handle all of the duties, and Loup could watch. This would increase MeFi's expenses a lot (going from paying for one part-time manager to paying for a new, full-time-manager and a part-time person-who-watches-the-manager-work), so, again, Jessamyn needs to think long and hard about it.
2) The job is doable with the hours/wages allotted, but Loup, for whatever reason, just can't do the job. This isn't to say they're a bad person. If you hired me to be a computer programmer or a Swahili interpreter, I'd be bad at the job. Doesn't make me a bad person.
In this case, MeFi needs to consider hiring a new manager. Of course, Loup should continue to keep their job and get paid, but the new person should handle all of the duties, and Loup could watch. This would increase MeFi's expenses (going from paying for one part-time manager to paying for a part-time manager and a part-time person-who-watches-the-manager-work), so, again, Jessamyn needs to think long and hard about it.
Either way, I think that something concrete needs to be done so that we move from not having effective management to having effective management, and also it's very important that MeFi continues to employ Loup, whether or not it assigns them any job duties.
posted by Bugbread at 3:49 PM on November 2 [15 favorites]
1) There's just too much work for the position. This could be true in a few ways. Maybe there's more work behind the scenes than is apparent. On the surface, it looks like you've got 20 hours of work, but the reality is that you've got 40 hours of work. Or maybe there isn't much work, but there are also very few hours. Like, you really do only have 20 hours of work...but you've only got 10 hours to do it.
I find this unlikely, but I really don't know. If this is the case, then MeFi needs to consider increasing Loup's hours and paying them more. This will increase MeFi's expenses, so Jessamyn needs to think long and hard about it. If Loup can't do more hours because of their main job, then one approach would be to hire another manager and they could divide their duties. Having two people do one job is inefficient, though, so a better choice would be to hire a full-time manager. Of course, Loup should continue to keep their job and get paid, but the new person should handle all of the duties, and Loup could watch. This would increase MeFi's expenses a lot (going from paying for one part-time manager to paying for a new, full-time-manager and a part-time person-who-watches-the-manager-work), so, again, Jessamyn needs to think long and hard about it.
2) The job is doable with the hours/wages allotted, but Loup, for whatever reason, just can't do the job. This isn't to say they're a bad person. If you hired me to be a computer programmer or a Swahili interpreter, I'd be bad at the job. Doesn't make me a bad person.
In this case, MeFi needs to consider hiring a new manager. Of course, Loup should continue to keep their job and get paid, but the new person should handle all of the duties, and Loup could watch. This would increase MeFi's expenses (going from paying for one part-time manager to paying for a part-time manager and a part-time person-who-watches-the-manager-work), so, again, Jessamyn needs to think long and hard about it.
Either way, I think that something concrete needs to be done so that we move from not having effective management to having effective management, and also it's very important that MeFi continues to employ Loup, whether or not it assigns them any job duties.
posted by Bugbread at 3:49 PM on November 2 [15 favorites]
Brandon Blatcher, I saw the MeMail asking about the document listing MetaTalk posts about the business operations of MeFi over the years. I tried to reply, but your MeMail is disabled.
posted by Miko at 4:02 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 4:02 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
Fixed!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 4:07 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 4:07 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]
So zero fundraiser events have happened? For a fundraiser originally scheduled to end on September 30th?
Maybe it's just me (and for the sake of not being banned, I am speaking for myself only) but a site fundraiser should also be something of a celebration of the community and it's a kick in the pants when the person responsible for that handled it the way they are handling it.
It's not the first time this has happened. Hell, it's not the first fundraiser this has happened to.
posted by Diskeater at 4:12 PM on November 2 [10 favorites]
Maybe it's just me (and for the sake of not being banned, I am speaking for myself only) but a site fundraiser should also be something of a celebration of the community and it's a kick in the pants when the person responsible for that handled it the way they are handling it.
It's not the first time this has happened. Hell, it's not the first fundraiser this has happened to.
posted by Diskeater at 4:12 PM on November 2 [10 favorites]
something concrete needs to be done so that we move from not having effective management to having effective management
I came here to say this. I like this place and don't want to lose it, and it's painful to see how much well-intentioned people are struggling. I know the transition to a non-profit model has not been as simple as some expected, but I think it needs to be given immediate priority over and above everything else. Continuing with the way things are is not fair to the current management or staff, or to the community.
posted by rpfields at 4:14 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]
I came here to say this. I like this place and don't want to lose it, and it's painful to see how much well-intentioned people are struggling. I know the transition to a non-profit model has not been as simple as some expected, but I think it needs to be given immediate priority over and above everything else. Continuing with the way things are is not fair to the current management or staff, or to the community.
posted by rpfields at 4:14 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]
Something that's lost in all the shouting is that, right or wrong, MeFites as a group are probably the most vociferous, demanding and downright (informally) litigious internet community I've ever observed, by an order of magnitude. An average day here feels like the near the very height of Reddit's recent war between its management and volunteer mods.
On the topic of calling for a staff member to resign: I wonder how much each now-former MeFite voluntarily leaving the community over the past couple of years could be more accurately interpreted as a vote of "You're Fired!" to the entire MeFi staff and community. Doesn't merely calling for a resignation in MeTa pale in comparison?
The one thing we should all be yelling to the staff/interim committees about here above all else is "why is this site still not owned and governed by the community?" We have no power over prioritization of the other complaints until this happens.
posted by zaixfeep at 4:40 PM on November 2 [3 favorites]
On the topic of calling for a staff member to resign: I wonder how much each now-former MeFite voluntarily leaving the community over the past couple of years could be more accurately interpreted as a vote of "You're Fired!" to the entire MeFi staff and community. Doesn't merely calling for a resignation in MeTa pale in comparison?
The one thing we should all be yelling to the staff/interim committees about here above all else is "why is this site still not owned and governed by the community?" We have no power over prioritization of the other complaints until this happens.
posted by zaixfeep at 4:40 PM on November 2 [3 favorites]
Mod note: A half dozen of the ever shrinking userbase expressed serious concerns and votes of no trust. I don't think 'take it all to email, and btw, we consider this harassment ' is the best tone to take.
Absolutely fair point and I want to stress that criticism of any and all moderation actions is fair and frankly, needed (definitely including myself in this).
Anyway, I'm wrapping up this long shift and won't be back until Wednesday morning ish. Loup is back Monday afternoonish. Obviously other moderators will be on various shifts doing things not related to this thread, so things may be quiet in here for a bit.
Otherwise:
• I hope the moderation team learns to take smaller bites of projects, communicates and delegates beter, and even narrows things down to list of say five things that we want to work/prepare for/hand over to the shiny new non-profit. My personal list would be:
1. Attracting new members (which involves revamping the onboarding process and posting form to make it easier to participant)
2. Documenting current issues with the site and/or site culture
3. An idea of what the community should look like (which will help narrow down what type of users to attact)
4. ?
5. ?
• I hope brook horse's suggestions get quickly approved and they're paid even quicker.
• I hope the community stays justifiably angry about what's transpired here, but in healthy way that spurs site corrections and growth long term. Definitely hold us accountable.
• I hope finds its smoother way forward.
• I hope (Yes, I recently reread Shawshank Redemption).
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:05 PM on November 2
Absolutely fair point and I want to stress that criticism of any and all moderation actions is fair and frankly, needed (definitely including myself in this).
Anyway, I'm wrapping up this long shift and won't be back until Wednesday morning ish. Loup is back Monday afternoonish. Obviously other moderators will be on various shifts doing things not related to this thread, so things may be quiet in here for a bit.
Otherwise:
• I hope the moderation team learns to take smaller bites of projects, communicates and delegates beter, and even narrows things down to list of say five things that we want to work/prepare for/hand over to the shiny new non-profit. My personal list would be:
1. Attracting new members (which involves revamping the onboarding process and posting form to make it easier to participant)
2. Documenting current issues with the site and/or site culture
3. An idea of what the community should look like (which will help narrow down what type of users to attact)
4. ?
5. ?
• I hope brook horse's suggestions get quickly approved and they're paid even quicker.
• I hope the community stays justifiably angry about what's transpired here, but in healthy way that spurs site corrections and growth long term. Definitely hold us accountable.
• I hope finds its smoother way forward.
• I hope (Yes, I recently reread Shawshank Redemption).
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:05 PM on November 2
Question: what exactly is holding up the launch or the handover of the nonprofit?
posted by Miko at 5:23 PM on November 2 [13 favorites]
posted by Miko at 5:23 PM on November 2 [13 favorites]
The problem for loup is that for the last two years of this bumpy transition, they've been serving for much longer than they'd thought in a role (fundraising and strategic leadership) that they weren't originally hired to do and without the skillset or hours to do it.
You know - that's been said a few times in this thread and it's not accurate. Some of loup's more problematic behaviors date from before they took over running the site. And while I don't know how cortex handled hiring for the position loup held then, I don't think timely communication or living up to commitments are skillsets or values extrinsic to the role of moderator, of all things. (They're also expected in pretty much any job or even interpersonal relationship.)
As for not having enough hours - right, that's exactly why launching a fundraiser and then immediately abandoning any visible effort on it, two years in a row, is not logical behavior. Also, funds had been set aside by the steering committee for loup to hire an admin, which would have taken some items off their plate. loup was repeatedly requested to do this. loup at at least one point said they would do this (pdf link). loup has not. The size of loup's workload is something loup has had significant influence determining. At this point it doesn't make sense as an excuse.
But none of that really matters. What matters is that if loup's skills and judgment are, as you say, not up to the job - which, again, I have a lot of personal empathy for - then the logical thing to do is to either replace loup (as manager) with someone who does have the needed abilities, or make sure that loup is managed or otherwise balanced by someone or someones who do.
I know that hiring right now or otherwise altering the organizational structure would be disruptive and complicated and probably the last thing jessamyn wants to deal with. On the other hand, after this long, and after so many go-arounds of the exact same problems being pointed out, how is it realistic to expect any significant improvement while loup holds their current role and responsibilities? Unless the transition is basically guaranteed to happen soon, continuing to wait until then is continuing to prolong the problem.
posted by trig at 6:01 PM on November 2 [25 favorites]
You know - that's been said a few times in this thread and it's not accurate. Some of loup's more problematic behaviors date from before they took over running the site. And while I don't know how cortex handled hiring for the position loup held then, I don't think timely communication or living up to commitments are skillsets or values extrinsic to the role of moderator, of all things. (They're also expected in pretty much any job or even interpersonal relationship.)
As for not having enough hours - right, that's exactly why launching a fundraiser and then immediately abandoning any visible effort on it, two years in a row, is not logical behavior. Also, funds had been set aside by the steering committee for loup to hire an admin, which would have taken some items off their plate. loup was repeatedly requested to do this. loup at at least one point said they would do this (pdf link). loup has not. The size of loup's workload is something loup has had significant influence determining. At this point it doesn't make sense as an excuse.
But none of that really matters. What matters is that if loup's skills and judgment are, as you say, not up to the job - which, again, I have a lot of personal empathy for - then the logical thing to do is to either replace loup (as manager) with someone who does have the needed abilities, or make sure that loup is managed or otherwise balanced by someone or someones who do.
I know that hiring right now or otherwise altering the organizational structure would be disruptive and complicated and probably the last thing jessamyn wants to deal with. On the other hand, after this long, and after so many go-arounds of the exact same problems being pointed out, how is it realistic to expect any significant improvement while loup holds their current role and responsibilities? Unless the transition is basically guaranteed to happen soon, continuing to wait until then is continuing to prolong the problem.
posted by trig at 6:01 PM on November 2 [25 favorites]
Yes, one hundred percent. If this site is to survive, the transition to a non-profit needs to happen pretty quickly. It should have been done years ago, there were outright lies told about whether it could happen and many people have walked away since (sapping what could have been a lot of energy dedicated to this transition).
I want to point out that everyone here, by virtue of the fact that we're present, cares about the community that is Metafilter and would be overjoyed to know that it still exists and is able to not just live, but thrive one or five or ten years from now. What does that look like? How do we get to there from here? I'm not sure but I do think that the current path isn't working and that ownership of the site needs to be turned over to a non-profit board as soon as possible if there's to be any realistic chance at all of it surviving.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:12 PM on November 2 [7 favorites]
I want to point out that everyone here, by virtue of the fact that we're present, cares about the community that is Metafilter and would be overjoyed to know that it still exists and is able to not just live, but thrive one or five or ten years from now. What does that look like? How do we get to there from here? I'm not sure but I do think that the current path isn't working and that ownership of the site needs to be turned over to a non-profit board as soon as possible if there's to be any realistic chance at all of it surviving.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:12 PM on November 2 [7 favorites]
Also, funds had been set aside by the steering committee for loup to hire an admin, which would have taken some items off their plate. loup was repeatedly requested to do this. loup at at least one point said they would do this (pdf link). loup has not. The size of loup's workload is something loup has had significant influence determining. At this point it doesn't make sense as an excuse.
There has been so much shit since then that I forgot about this. Such a misuse of the community’s goodwill and trust.
posted by knobknosher at 7:19 PM on November 2 [17 favorites]
There has been so much shit since then that I forgot about this. Such a misuse of the community’s goodwill and trust.
posted by knobknosher at 7:19 PM on November 2 [17 favorites]
A man sits impatiently at the restaurant. The manager comes over:
"Is there a problem sir?"
"Well yes, you promised me that you would have my food ready on time, and it is now two hours late."
"Well I'm sorry sir the food is ready, I just need to cook it. Unfortunately I had to talk to these customers about another issue which delayed me"
Another customer leans over "You know, the manager really shouldn't be cooking the food anyway"
The first customer says "Well I'm sorry, but this is unacceptable. This is the fourth time I've been at this restaurant, and each time you have promised me food which you did not deliver. Honestly I don't think you are cut out for this role."
The manager leaves. A waiter appears "Hi, just popping into say that suggesting anyone should be fired is now considered harassment in this restaurant."
Another customer: "Sorry, who's policy is this?"
"Ah, the higher ups."
"So the manager then?"
"Yes, but I, an employee of said manager, agreed completely with their decision"
The customers leave and find a different restaurant that has threaded comments, and spend all their time discussing how much they didn't like the previous restaurant.
~~~~fin~~~~
posted by Cannon Fodder at 1:00 AM on November 3 [22 favorites]
"Is there a problem sir?"
"Well yes, you promised me that you would have my food ready on time, and it is now two hours late."
"Well I'm sorry sir the food is ready, I just need to cook it. Unfortunately I had to talk to these customers about another issue which delayed me"
Another customer leans over "You know, the manager really shouldn't be cooking the food anyway"
The first customer says "Well I'm sorry, but this is unacceptable. This is the fourth time I've been at this restaurant, and each time you have promised me food which you did not deliver. Honestly I don't think you are cut out for this role."
The manager leaves. A waiter appears "Hi, just popping into say that suggesting anyone should be fired is now considered harassment in this restaurant."
Another customer: "Sorry, who's policy is this?"
"Ah, the higher ups."
"So the manager then?"
"Yes, but I, an employee of said manager, agreed completely with their decision"
The customers leave and find a different restaurant that has threaded comments, and spend all their time discussing how much they didn't like the previous restaurant.
~~~~fin~~~~
posted by Cannon Fodder at 1:00 AM on November 3 [22 favorites]
I’ll ask again. What is preventing the launch of nonprofit?
As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I’ve launched two NPOs. The first took 45 days. The second involved a big asset transfer and lawyers, and took about 6 months. It would be helpful to know exactly why things are taking so much longer.
posted by Miko at 4:45 AM on November 3 [21 favorites]
As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I’ve launched two NPOs. The first took 45 days. The second involved a big asset transfer and lawyers, and took about 6 months. It would be helpful to know exactly why things are taking so much longer.
posted by Miko at 4:45 AM on November 3 [21 favorites]
"Something that's lost in all the shouting is that, right or wrong, MeFites as a group are probably the most vociferous, demanding and downright (informally) litigious internet community I've ever observed, by an order of magnitude. An average day here feels like the near the very height of Reddit's recent war between its management and volunteer mods."+1 to zaixfeep again. Discussions here regularly grow weirdly contentious in ways I seldom see even on much larger, supposedly less erudite forums. A portion of the active users are loud, entitled, and prone to interpreting any decision or message shared by staff in the worst possible light. I have a certain amount of respect for anyone willing to take on the job of being a moderator or community manager here, I sure wouldn't do it myself.
So keep that in mind when I say that as much anything else, this
"Several comments have been made calling for a moderator to resign. Those comments are considered harassment and we want to make it clear that's not acceptable. Do not do that on this site and going forward, if it is done it may result in a ban."
makes me say "stick a fork in it, this place is done".
User feedback in this thread has often been pointed and critical. I'm sure it has not been comfortable to read. It points to a pattern of negligence and site leadership overpromising, underdelivering, and under-communicating. While this pattern did not begin with Loup, they have continued it and that is a problem. I empathize with them if they are feeling stuck in a role that is not what they signed up for and not a good fit. But like it or not, they are now in a leadership position. They are not a volunteer or junior employee. Calling for them to be accountable for their work, up to and including redefining their role or resigning if they cannot perform the duties required, is not harassment.
And yet, the response from management has been to add even more content rules and shadow procedures as well as threatening to ban users who point out that staffing changes may be appropriate here.
Stop it. Stop adding to the already baroque mess of rules. Stop trying to control the conversation so much. Stop making excuses and deflecting responsibility for the situation.
Use the energy you're spending here to put some effective management in place. Take a hard look at how to make the best use of the time you have, focus on the transition to the non-profit structure, and keep the lights on for the site in the interim.
posted by 4rtemis at 7:21 AM on November 3 [28 favorites]
loup was repeatedly requested to do this. loup at at least one point said they would do this (pdf link). loup has not. The size of loup's workload is something loup has had significant influence determining. At this point it doesn't make sense as an excuse.
This was first mentioned in a MeTa around March 1 or so of that year. Like a lot of mefites, I have some bookkeeping/fundraising/customer service experience, so I messaged the site privately for more info. thyme and Rhaomi both immediately sent me personal replies to confirm receipt of my message, notified me that my question had been forwarded to loup, and mentioned that loup had been pinged on slack (they were at a technology conference at the moment)... and then nothing. No reply from loup at all.
I followed along for a while online through the BIPOC notes: First loup needed time to compose the job description, then one of the former mods was interested so loup was trying to match it up for them, and then the whole thing sort of trailed off.
I really think having someone, anyone, in that position would have been immensely helpful in organizing our resources and getting everything lined up for nonprofit status. It feels like a loss. And it's frustrating, too, because it's yet another example of momentum that instantly and inevitably derails the moment loup gets involved.
posted by mochapickle at 7:24 AM on November 3 [24 favorites]
This was first mentioned in a MeTa around March 1 or so of that year. Like a lot of mefites, I have some bookkeeping/fundraising/customer service experience, so I messaged the site privately for more info. thyme and Rhaomi both immediately sent me personal replies to confirm receipt of my message, notified me that my question had been forwarded to loup, and mentioned that loup had been pinged on slack (they were at a technology conference at the moment)... and then nothing. No reply from loup at all.
I followed along for a while online through the BIPOC notes: First loup needed time to compose the job description, then one of the former mods was interested so loup was trying to match it up for them, and then the whole thing sort of trailed off.
I really think having someone, anyone, in that position would have been immensely helpful in organizing our resources and getting everything lined up for nonprofit status. It feels like a loss. And it's frustrating, too, because it's yet another example of momentum that instantly and inevitably derails the moment loup gets involved.
posted by mochapickle at 7:24 AM on November 3 [24 favorites]
There almost certainly isn't actually much work to do though. Whenever pressed loup talks vaguely about revising guidelines or assembling the pet tax wall or drafting comments for preposterously long times.
The admin assistant job idea was entertained for as long as loup thought it might make another useful sinecure for a crony, and dropped when it became clear that wasn't an option.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:58 AM on November 3 [10 favorites]
The admin assistant job idea was entertained for as long as loup thought it might make another useful sinecure for a crony, and dropped when it became clear that wasn't an option.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:58 AM on November 3 [10 favorites]
Yeah, administering and moderating a small website should be a 5 hour per week job, not anything time consuming or stressful.
posted by bowbeacon at 10:01 AM on November 3 [4 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 10:01 AM on November 3 [4 favorites]
I don't know what's involved. But most jobs look easier from the outside than they actually are. And I think the job under discussion is administrator, not admin assistant.
posted by NotLost at 10:06 AM on November 3
posted by NotLost at 10:06 AM on November 3
I know multiple people who administer websites that get 700 comments per day. It’s a hobby, not a job, and it costs them less than $2k a year. Everything about the administration of Metafilter is off by multiple orders of magnitude.
posted by bowbeacon at 10:09 AM on November 3 [11 favorites]
posted by bowbeacon at 10:09 AM on November 3 [11 favorites]
There is a post immediately below this one about the status of the new nonprofit. Which as far as I can tell is the responsibility of the nonprofit board, not the current MeFi management. So maybe ask questions about the status there? By their last update they had not yet filed the paperwork.
posted by DiscourseMarker at 10:12 AM on November 3 [2 favorites]
posted by DiscourseMarker at 10:12 AM on November 3 [2 favorites]
Mod note: I have been considering the requests to step down since Friday and was hoping to come to a decision by Monday.
Throughout the weekend I've spoken with Jessamyn, who has asked me to stay; I've been contacted by members interested in putting the member contribution budget to good use; I've read messages from members showing support toward the work we are doing; and, we have also received a few email messages (most anonymous) asking to fire every single mod and even being abusive toward the mod on duty who got back to them. This is simply not OK and the mods shouldn't have to deal with that.
There's a lot of work being done and to be done for the future of MetaFilter. Work that requires me (for the near future), requires the mods and all the love and effort they put towards this site each day, for Jessamyn and interim board who are working actively towards a change, and for the community at large. Unfortunately, this thread is not helping us to align efforts so I'll close it for now.
I'll provide updates for the fundraising when I'm back on duty but for now let me reiterate:
– I'm committed to stay for as long as it makes sense for both the owner of the site and the interim board.
– If folks think a staff member (besides myself) should resign, please contact me. If folks think I should resign, contact Jessamyn. In either case, please be constructive and straightforward as possible.
– If you are concerned about the future of MetaFilter, please consider making a contribution or offering support to the interim board and the formation of MeFiCoFo.
posted by loup (staff) at 10:18 AM on November 3 [4 favorites]
Throughout the weekend I've spoken with Jessamyn, who has asked me to stay; I've been contacted by members interested in putting the member contribution budget to good use; I've read messages from members showing support toward the work we are doing; and, we have also received a few email messages (most anonymous) asking to fire every single mod and even being abusive toward the mod on duty who got back to them. This is simply not OK and the mods shouldn't have to deal with that.
There's a lot of work being done and to be done for the future of MetaFilter. Work that requires me (for the near future), requires the mods and all the love and effort they put towards this site each day, for Jessamyn and interim board who are working actively towards a change, and for the community at large. Unfortunately, this thread is not helping us to align efforts so I'll close it for now.
I'll provide updates for the fundraising when I'm back on duty but for now let me reiterate:
– I'm committed to stay for as long as it makes sense for both the owner of the site and the interim board.
– If folks think a staff member (besides myself) should resign, please contact me. If folks think I should resign, contact Jessamyn. In either case, please be constructive and straightforward as possible.
– If you are concerned about the future of MetaFilter, please consider making a contribution or offering support to the interim board and the formation of MeFiCoFo.
posted by loup (staff) at 10:18 AM on November 3 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Being a bit of a tech person, I am always excited to see what's going on on the tech side of things, and I am so appreciative of everything that happens there.
(And I'm so appreciative of everything else, too! I just gravitate toward the tech reports.)
Thank you all, so much, for everything you've done this month, and this year, to keep the site running as well as it does!
*** appreciation ***
posted by kristi at 4:55 PM on October 16 [4 favorites]