Zine based on a AskMe that I made October 2, 2024 1:43 PM Subscribe
Both an idea (for outreach/promotion) and a confession. The day before I was set to table at the local zine symposium, I was scrambling for another mini-zine idea, and ended up excerpting some of the answers to an Ask Me I made earlier this year"What's your random (but regular) act of public service?" Here's a link to the one-page mini zine (mod note: link removed, see this note).
In retrospect, this is very much of the "ask for forgiveness not permission" M.O. that I usually hate on. But also it seems like an idea for getting the word out about Metafilter to potential members. My tablemate at the zine fair was all (paraphrase) "oooh, I'll check that out. I love the idea that it is old school."
People whose answers I used and MeFi mods, please forgive me for not asking in advance. I didn't use any usernames, but obviously if someone finds the original post there is only the usual level of anonymity.
People in general, what do you think about making a Metafilter zine series? I think the DIY ethos of zines is very much in the spirit of MeFi, and zines also spans across the generations (aka gen x-ers, millennials, gen z-ers etc). It could be an internal fundraiser (like stickers and magnets) but I think it would be more fun if it was directed to non-members?
In retrospect, this is very much of the "ask for forgiveness not permission" M.O. that I usually hate on. But also it seems like an idea for getting the word out about Metafilter to potential members. My tablemate at the zine fair was all (paraphrase) "oooh, I'll check that out. I love the idea that it is old school."
People whose answers I used and MeFi mods, please forgive me for not asking in advance. I didn't use any usernames, but obviously if someone finds the original post there is only the usual level of anonymity.
People in general, what do you think about making a Metafilter zine series? I think the DIY ethos of zines is very much in the spirit of MeFi, and zines also spans across the generations (aka gen x-ers, millennials, gen z-ers etc). It could be an internal fundraiser (like stickers and magnets) but I think it would be more fun if it was directed to non-members?
I formally forgive you, this will be my act of kindness for the day ;)
posted by Mizu at 7:03 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 7:03 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]
I absolutely love this, thanks for giving it a whirl and sharing it with us!
Probably better to reach out the individual writers and ask for permission, just food for thought if done again. But really digging it, thanks again!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:40 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]
Probably better to reach out the individual writers and ask for permission, just food for thought if done again. But really digging it, thanks again!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:40 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]
I like the zine. I don't need to be asked permission.
posted by philip-random at 9:49 AM on October 3
posted by philip-random at 9:49 AM on October 3
Some pertinent site history is how The Annotated Emotional Labor Post (and lack of permission re same) was received. This is a different time, different project, but go into this with your eyes open.
posted by zamboni at 10:12 AM on October 3 [7 favorites]
posted by zamboni at 10:12 AM on October 3 [7 favorites]
I think this zine's cool. It's aligned with the spirit of the Ask, trying to make the world a better place. spamandkimchi, you used one of my answers, and I'm am OK with you using my answer in this context. That Ask and this zine just seems like a win for humanity.
I don't know if other posters on that Ask would feel the same way. Or if they would even think to look here to see if their answers were being republished without their consent. Myself, I would probably not think to ask, randomly, "hey, I wonder if someone out there is republishing my MetaFilter comments?" (But, again, this particular zine seems really cool and goodhearted.)
People in general, what do you think about making a Metafilter zine series? I think the DIY ethos of zines is very much in the spirit of MeFi, and zines also spans across the generations (aka gen x-ers, millennials, gen z-ers etc). It could be an internal fundraiser (like stickers and magnets) but I think it would be more fun if it was directed to non-members?
Thank you for asking. I am not okay with this. If you or anyone else pursues this, I think there needs to be a clear, unambiguous update about this to the community, giving us the option to consent or opt out (or, per the comment above, your going to the effort to contact commenters). Only a fraction of MeFites visit MetaTalk, and I expect that some of them would also not be cool with their comments being used in this way.
"Metafilter and copyright" seems relevant here. I am not on MetaFilter to generate content for others. I disagree strongly with some (often very vocal) members of this community about a bunch of things. Some threads here in the last year have been so terrible, in my opinion, they caused me to ask myself "do I still want to be on MetaFilter?" I'm still here, but I would not take kindly to my words being used without my consent, and doubly so to support causes, opinions, or agendas that I don't share.
posted by cupcakeninja at 12:32 PM on October 3 [9 favorites]
I don't know if other posters on that Ask would feel the same way. Or if they would even think to look here to see if their answers were being republished without their consent. Myself, I would probably not think to ask, randomly, "hey, I wonder if someone out there is republishing my MetaFilter comments?" (But, again, this particular zine seems really cool and goodhearted.)
People in general, what do you think about making a Metafilter zine series? I think the DIY ethos of zines is very much in the spirit of MeFi, and zines also spans across the generations (aka gen x-ers, millennials, gen z-ers etc). It could be an internal fundraiser (like stickers and magnets) but I think it would be more fun if it was directed to non-members?
Thank you for asking. I am not okay with this. If you or anyone else pursues this, I think there needs to be a clear, unambiguous update about this to the community, giving us the option to consent or opt out (or, per the comment above, your going to the effort to contact commenters). Only a fraction of MeFites visit MetaTalk, and I expect that some of them would also not be cool with their comments being used in this way.
"Metafilter and copyright" seems relevant here. I am not on MetaFilter to generate content for others. I disagree strongly with some (often very vocal) members of this community about a bunch of things. Some threads here in the last year have been so terrible, in my opinion, they caused me to ask myself "do I still want to be on MetaFilter?" I'm still here, but I would not take kindly to my words being used without my consent, and doubly so to support causes, opinions, or agendas that I don't share.
posted by cupcakeninja at 12:32 PM on October 3 [9 favorites]
I disagree strongly with some (often very vocal) members of this community about a bunch of things.
posted by cupcakeNOTninja at this moment
12:32 PM on October 3
posted by y2karl at 3:25 PM on October 3
posted by cupcakeNOTninja at this moment
12:32 PM on October 3
posted by y2karl at 3:25 PM on October 3
Hey spamandkimchi, would it be possible to share the template you used?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:43 PM on October 3
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:43 PM on October 3
posted by cupcakeNOTninja at this moment
Hmm. Might have decloaked too much with the grumpy there. I'm in the fourth week of still not being completely over the flu, had to drop out of something next week, and I've had way more genAI in my life than I want lately. That might seem unrelated, but it's lowkey frustrating to think about IP this much at work and then pop into MeTa (probably a bad decision in the first place) and see this discussion, even if sparked by a cool zine.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:10 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]
Hmm. Might have decloaked too much with the grumpy there. I'm in the fourth week of still not being completely over the flu, had to drop out of something next week, and I've had way more genAI in my life than I want lately. That might seem unrelated, but it's lowkey frustrating to think about IP this much at work and then pop into MeTa (probably a bad decision in the first place) and see this discussion, even if sparked by a cool zine.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:10 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]
Well, you are definitely human and definitely not genAI. Feel better soonest.
posted by y2karl at 6:28 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 6:28 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]
If all posts are copyright their authors, as it says on the bottom of the site, then using them for other purposes requires the authors' permission, with a few exceptions, just like using any other copyrighted material.
posted by lapis at 8:21 PM on October 3 [8 favorites]
posted by lapis at 8:21 PM on October 3 [8 favorites]
Thanks everyone for weighing in so far. My sense is that any MeFi zine (definite interest from a few folks, yay) would need to have full transparency and permission of the member whose words are being included.
How about having a call for members to submit their own words (from old comments or freshly written) for different themes? To be honest, there are members who could have a whole book of awesomeness from their contributions alone.
posted by spamandkimchi at 8:38 PM on October 3 [7 favorites]
How about having a call for members to submit their own words (from old comments or freshly written) for different themes? To be honest, there are members who could have a whole book of awesomeness from their contributions alone.
posted by spamandkimchi at 8:38 PM on October 3 [7 favorites]
Yeah I absolutely would want to be contacted and asked permission for my comments to be used in this sort of context. It's a neat project and I would probably grant permission, but I do not cede ownership of my writing here. (Specifically mod-styled comments from my time as an employee are probably a different area, but that's a can of worms someone can unpack if they want to deal with all of those worms.)
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 5:51 AM on October 4 [1 favorite]
posted by restless_nomad (retired) at 5:51 AM on October 4 [1 favorite]
Also, I think if anything is sold, that might go over better if any profits were to go to MeFI. It would with me.
posted by NotLost at 7:06 AM on October 4 [1 favorite]
posted by NotLost at 7:06 AM on October 4 [1 favorite]
I love the idea of having some Mefi zines, but absolutely would want permission asked about use of my own words.
posted by joannemerriam at 9:40 AM on October 4
posted by joannemerriam at 9:40 AM on October 4
Yes, definitely thinking this could be a fundraiser for MeFi! Mini-zines (out of a single sheet of paper I mean), at least at the zine fairs I have been to, are $1 (or $2 if someone printed it in color or had good art), so by themselves aren't much of a fundraiser. Perhaps as a donation perk? I'm not sure about the logistics -- proof of donation to Metafilter, get your choice of mini-zine in the mail? Or if its a promotional strategy, then the trick would be figuring out where/how to distribute. I am both chastised (truly, I am avoidant as all hell but wanted to come clean even though I think all of 8 of these zines are in the world now) and excited.
Anyone interested in brainstorming/working with me on this, especially topics or particular posts that might make good zines, and the over all strategy (freebie with donation, distribution through zine networks, etc). Fall semester is a heavy teaching load for me, but I could certainly either a) reach out to people for permission to use their comments from an existing post or b) craft a call for submissions on a specific topic or topics, and run it by mods for their approval.
Brandon Blatcher, here's a blank template in Google Slides I made for my mini zine project. I didn't find anything quite like this, a few Word/google doc templates, but I found those harder to use. Here's another example of a mini-zine I made last month on vermicomposting. The margins aren't quite right on the templates, you'll have to tinker to see what will fold neatly.
posted by spamandkimchi at 11:24 AM on October 4 [1 favorite]
Anyone interested in brainstorming/working with me on this, especially topics or particular posts that might make good zines, and the over all strategy (freebie with donation, distribution through zine networks, etc). Fall semester is a heavy teaching load for me, but I could certainly either a) reach out to people for permission to use their comments from an existing post or b) craft a call for submissions on a specific topic or topics, and run it by mods for their approval.
Brandon Blatcher, here's a blank template in Google Slides I made for my mini zine project. I didn't find anything quite like this, a few Word/google doc templates, but I found those harder to use. Here's another example of a mini-zine I made last month on vermicomposting. The margins aren't quite right on the templates, you'll have to tinker to see what will fold neatly.
posted by spamandkimchi at 11:24 AM on October 4 [1 favorite]
If it's an official thing for raising money or promoting the brand, doesn't it then run back into the issue of a for-profit enterprise not being able to accept volunteer labor?
posted by lapis at 11:37 AM on October 4
posted by lapis at 11:37 AM on October 4
I've been thinking this over, and I am not comfortable with it. Of course individuals should be asked before any of their comments are used, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable at all with MetaFilter content being remixed and repurposed. A zine seems like a small cool thing with limited reach, but I don't feel any more comfortable about it than I did when the person did the Annotated Emotional Labor document. I actually thought that document was a really cool distillation of a pretty endless thread, but still thought it was wrong for one person to unilaterally decide to use MetaFilter content that way. Even if individual members OK the use of their words, selection and editing are also powerful in terms of making meaning and setting impressions.
posted by Well I never at 6:04 PM on October 4 [3 favorites]
posted by Well I never at 6:04 PM on October 4 [3 favorites]
Wrong how, exactly? Please know I’m not trying to be difficult or argumentative, I genuinely want to know what you mean. I do disagree with you, I think, but I am pretty intensely steeped in remix, collage, and fanwork cultures so I’m probably coming from a different place philosophically.
What is wrong to you about transforming things in the two ways you mention, this zine and the emotional labor document? For me, as long as permission is asked beforehand with disclosure about the full intentions for the project, a link back or source annotation is included, and it’s clear that the work is transformative, I have no objections. So with this zine I would have appreciated being asked before it was printed, but had I been asked I would have given my okay and it’s small enough that it’s completely a non-issue for me, and otherwise it seems all right.
If someone covers a song by another artist with that artist’s permission, is it wrong that they do so because the impression and meaning changes with instrumentation and artistry? That is the metaphorical equivalent I’m thinking of here, so you might better understand why I don’t know what you think is wrong or why it makes you uncomfortable.
posted by Mizu at 6:49 PM on October 4 [1 favorite]
What is wrong to you about transforming things in the two ways you mention, this zine and the emotional labor document? For me, as long as permission is asked beforehand with disclosure about the full intentions for the project, a link back or source annotation is included, and it’s clear that the work is transformative, I have no objections. So with this zine I would have appreciated being asked before it was printed, but had I been asked I would have given my okay and it’s small enough that it’s completely a non-issue for me, and otherwise it seems all right.
If someone covers a song by another artist with that artist’s permission, is it wrong that they do so because the impression and meaning changes with instrumentation and artistry? That is the metaphorical equivalent I’m thinking of here, so you might better understand why I don’t know what you think is wrong or why it makes you uncomfortable.
posted by Mizu at 6:49 PM on October 4 [1 favorite]
This doesn't seem so much like a "ask for forgiveness rather than permission" as admitting to having done something which the community had established as not being okay. The site rules are clear about copyright remaining with the poster and there is a precedent that people get upset about this.
(I have therefore flagged this thread, in hopes of a moderator statement about this.)
posted by demi-octopus at 2:55 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
(I have therefore flagged this thread, in hopes of a moderator statement about this.)
posted by demi-octopus at 2:55 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Spamandkimchi clearly meant no harm and was playing around with an interesting idea.
But yes, do not use material from this website that has been created by others in any way without the express written permission of the original creator. I've asked spamandkimchi to take the PDF down or redo it with just their comments or mine (I have them permission to do so) or some other option. For the moment, I've removed the link to the zine, until some other example can be posted that doesn't use others content without permission.
Again, the best of intentions were meant, but everyone should avoid doing anything like this in the future without the original community member's permission.
This is serious, not just from a legal perspective but also from a personal one. For instance, sometimes there's a highly favorited, yet personal, comment in AskMe that I want to put on the Best Of blog. But I always ask permission and ask the community member if it's ok to highlight the comment on not just the blog but also on social media, with the option to say no to any reproduction, keep it just to the blog, or allow posting it on social media. Whatever they agree to is absolutely fine.
We are a community and people will often feel comfortable sharing personal things to the community, but don't necessarily want it highlighted and/or reproduced elsewhere. Always ask, always get that permission!
Back in the days of MeFi Mag we did a layout highlighting some highly favorited comments about relationships. Every comment we used we got explicit permission for. It took a bit of time and was tedious, but absolutely necessary.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:07 AM on October 5 [13 favorites]
But yes, do not use material from this website that has been created by others in any way without the express written permission of the original creator. I've asked spamandkimchi to take the PDF down or redo it with just their comments or mine (I have them permission to do so) or some other option. For the moment, I've removed the link to the zine, until some other example can be posted that doesn't use others content without permission.
Again, the best of intentions were meant, but everyone should avoid doing anything like this in the future without the original community member's permission.
This is serious, not just from a legal perspective but also from a personal one. For instance, sometimes there's a highly favorited, yet personal, comment in AskMe that I want to put on the Best Of blog. But I always ask permission and ask the community member if it's ok to highlight the comment on not just the blog but also on social media, with the option to say no to any reproduction, keep it just to the blog, or allow posting it on social media. Whatever they agree to is absolutely fine.
We are a community and people will often feel comfortable sharing personal things to the community, but don't necessarily want it highlighted and/or reproduced elsewhere. Always ask, always get that permission!
Back in the days of MeFi Mag we did a layout highlighting some highly favorited comments about relationships. Every comment we used we got explicit permission for. It took a bit of time and was tedious, but absolutely necessary.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:07 AM on October 5 [13 favorites]
Thanks for removing the link Brandon, I hadn't seen your memail until just now and hadn't thought about how it would feel like it was still "in publication" to have the zine template linked (just wanted to be completely open about what I had done!). Again mea culpa for my error and misjudgment.
posted by spamandkimchi at 2:58 PM on October 5 [2 favorites]
posted by spamandkimchi at 2:58 PM on October 5 [2 favorites]
Any of you have my perennial permission to use any of the dumb stuff I've said over the years for whatever project you want. Go ahead and quote me unattributed. Say you heard it from "a friend." Post it on a billboard in 2 foot tall font. I don't care.
With one exception.
I ever see a short form video where a comment of mine is read in an AI voiceover while B roll of a minecraft letsplay runs in the background? Straight to fucking jail.
posted by phunniemee at 9:26 AM on October 6 [6 favorites]
With one exception.
I ever see a short form video where a comment of mine is read in an AI voiceover while B roll of a minecraft letsplay runs in the background? Straight to fucking jail.
posted by phunniemee at 9:26 AM on October 6 [6 favorites]
Ctrl-f 'fair use,' no results.
Hmm.
I said there were exceptions to copyright law in my comment, though I didn't use the term "fair use" because I doubt it applies here. The zine is not criticism or commentary on the comments, it's for profit, and it seems to quote the majority, if not all, of the comment. I could be wrong about fair use applying but it seems like it would need an actual argument that it does.
posted by lapis at 9:40 AM on October 6
Hmm.
I said there were exceptions to copyright law in my comment, though I didn't use the term "fair use" because I doubt it applies here. The zine is not criticism or commentary on the comments, it's for profit, and it seems to quote the majority, if not all, of the comment. I could be wrong about fair use applying but it seems like it would need an actual argument that it does.
posted by lapis at 9:40 AM on October 6
*makes not about using phunniemee’s comments in long form videos only*
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:49 AM on October 6 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:49 AM on October 6 [1 favorite]
When I was in media we would not have considered republishing comments fair use; we would either have had a TOS that gave us the copyright or we would have sought permission. That's not a definitive legal opinion but it points to best/common practice.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:17 PM on October 6 [3 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 1:17 PM on October 6 [3 favorites]
Many things are legal but not ok. It's ok for us to ask for a different standard than "it's not against the law."
Having said this, I think this is an innocuous infringement against the community, it's not that something awful has happened but that the precedent is set for something more objectionable.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:29 AM on October 8 [3 favorites]
Having said this, I think this is an innocuous infringement against the community, it's not that something awful has happened but that the precedent is set for something more objectionable.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:29 AM on October 8 [3 favorites]
I just think it’s a matter of asking. People. Usually people say yes. :)
posted by warriorqueen at 3:39 PM on October 8
posted by warriorqueen at 3:39 PM on October 8
It really speaks to how different the culture here is compared to the internet at large, where repurposing content from social media sites is very much a norm.
While I agree that asking permission to repurpose comments is the right thing to do, it does make me sad to think of the wealth of wisdom in the AskMe archive from folks who have parted ways with the site. (I toyed with similar zine-making ideas in years past, but never went forward with it)
posted by itesser at 10:06 AM on October 9 [1 favorite]
While I agree that asking permission to repurpose comments is the right thing to do, it does make me sad to think of the wealth of wisdom in the AskMe archive from folks who have parted ways with the site. (I toyed with similar zine-making ideas in years past, but never went forward with it)
posted by itesser at 10:06 AM on October 9 [1 favorite]
It really speaks to how different the culture here is compared to the internet at large, where repurposing content from social media sites is very much a norm.
It speaks to the TOS here as much as the culture I think, as well as the tech. When media sites embed an Instagram post, the creator can delete it (they can’t block that use.) In a zine you can’t. But really it comes down to the Terms of Service. This is where Instagram addresses that:
We do not claim ownership of your content, but you grant us a license to use it.
Nothing is changing about your rights in your content. We do not claim ownership of your content that you post on or through the Service and you are free to share your content with anyone else, wherever you want. However, we need certain legal permissions from you (known as a “license”) to provide the Service. When you share, post, or upload content that is covered by intellectual property rights (like photos or videos) on or in connection with our Service, you hereby grant to us a non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sub-licensable, worldwide license to host, use, distribute, modify, run, copy, publicly perform or display, translate, and create derivative works of your content (consistent with your privacy and application settings). This license will end when your content is deleted from our systems. You can delete content individually or all at once by deleting your account. To learn more about how we use information, and how to control or delete your content, review the Privacy Policy and visit the Instagram Help Center.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:17 AM on October 9 [1 favorite]
It speaks to the TOS here as much as the culture I think, as well as the tech. When media sites embed an Instagram post, the creator can delete it (they can’t block that use.) In a zine you can’t. But really it comes down to the Terms of Service. This is where Instagram addresses that:
We do not claim ownership of your content, but you grant us a license to use it.
Nothing is changing about your rights in your content. We do not claim ownership of your content that you post on or through the Service and you are free to share your content with anyone else, wherever you want. However, we need certain legal permissions from you (known as a “license”) to provide the Service. When you share, post, or upload content that is covered by intellectual property rights (like photos or videos) on or in connection with our Service, you hereby grant to us a non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sub-licensable, worldwide license to host, use, distribute, modify, run, copy, publicly perform or display, translate, and create derivative works of your content (consistent with your privacy and application settings). This license will end when your content is deleted from our systems. You can delete content individually or all at once by deleting your account. To learn more about how we use information, and how to control or delete your content, review the Privacy Policy and visit the Instagram Help Center.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:17 AM on October 9 [1 favorite]
> It really speaks to how different the culture here is compared to the internet at large, where repurposing content from social media sites is very much a norm.
Petition to bring back image posting solely in the form of crunchy off-ratio resized jpg screencaps of other people's posts.
posted by lucidium at 2:22 AM on October 13 [1 favorite]
Petition to bring back image posting solely in the form of crunchy off-ratio resized jpg screencaps of other people's posts.
posted by lucidium at 2:22 AM on October 13 [1 favorite]
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In fact, if someone turned the metawiki page I put together about getting out the vote in the upcoming US presidential election into a post-election zine (since most or all of these organizations will still be working), I would be very happy. And, for what it's worth, nobody complained about my linking their posts and comments to that page.
posted by ALeaflikeStructure at 6:03 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]