[MeFi Site Update] November 15th

November 15, 2023 12:09 PM

Hi there, MetaFilter!

Welcome to your monthly Site Update! You can find the last Site Update here.

Reminder: I will be the only mod actively monitoring this thread so please be patient. I’ll reply to your feedback and questions at least twice a week. I’m looking forward to your feedback and questions!

Admin/Moderation
– Non-Profit update: You can follow the active thread here. The interim board met today (Nov 15th). Look for updates from them soon.
– We have received several applications for the Web developer role frimble, Jessamyn and I are reviewing them and will let you know once the position is filled.

Technical changes

– First changes to the Flagging UI have been released this morning. Please take a look and feel free to add your feedback here. Also, if you see any bugs, unintended behaviour, or if you see places where the changes have not yet taken effect, please please Contact Us .
– Bug fixes to geocoder on editing IRL posts
– We have reduced the waiting time for new posts on the blue from 1 day to 11 hours, based on the feedback we have received in the last Meta Thread.
– Background fixes with contact form emails
– Several javascript changes to the Classic theme that should have made no visible difference.

BIPOC Advisory Board

– The next BIPOC Board meeting will be taking place next week on November 21st.
– Meeting notes for the last couple of meetings are in the process of finalization/approval. Thyme is working on getting them published by the end of this week.

If you have any questions or feedback not related to this particular update, please Contact Us instead. If you want to discuss a particular subject not covered here with the community, you’re welcome to open a separate MetaTalk thread for it.

posted by loup (staff) to MetaFilter-Related at 12:09 PM (54 comments total)

Why is the new flagging affordance different between posts and comments?
posted by bowbeacon at 12:41 PM on November 15, 2023 [5 favorites]

I promised to donate 50 bucks if the flag changed this year, so I guess I owe y'all some cash. Nice!
posted by Threeve at 12:52 PM on November 15, 2023 [12 favorites]

Please update the line

"To flag something, click the [!] link by the post or comment."

in the flagging FAQ entry.

Thanks!
posted by brainwane at 1:02 PM on November 15, 2023 [7 favorites]

(i'm glad someone pointed out it's a flag icon...it's so tiny! i wasn't sure what i was seeing.)
posted by mittens at 1:07 PM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

The dark grey flag icon is very hard to see on the mid grey MetaTalk background (on mobile, using Chrome and the classic theme).
posted by brushtailedphascogale at 1:58 PM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

Please update the line

Done. We'll work on the color contrast issue.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:09 PM on November 15, 2023 [6 favorites]

I had to restrain myself from trying out the new flag button as soon as I saw it! Very exciting, I know it's been a curly one behind the scenes.
posted by freethefeet at 3:10 PM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

Hey, nice UI improvement with the flags!

Can I be part of the back-flagging project?
posted by Devils Rancher at 4:27 PM on November 15, 2023 [5 favorites]

The Contact Us link keeps redirecting to this post.

(Although related to that: lately I've been getting double emails of the "Ask Mefi Followup" variety!)
posted by creatrixtiara at 6:12 PM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

All I'm seeing in with the flag UI is a change from [!] to [⚑]. Is that the change or is there something I'm missing? I'm asking because my understanding of the original motivation between wanting to change the flag UI was to improve accessibility. Again, perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see how [⚑] is an improvement over [!]. Perhaps this is meant to be a first trivial change but underneath the hood represents a single unified flag codebase such that future changes are easy?
posted by dorothy hawk at 6:45 PM on November 15, 2023 [24 favorites]

Seconding dorothy hawk's question.
The flag icon is "mystery meat", it's not clear what it's function is unless you already know.

Even the word "flag" is not ideal.

The word "report" would be much clearer, and in line with how this is done elsewhere, so people are much more likely to understand what it's for.
posted by Zumbador at 8:15 PM on November 15, 2023 [17 favorites]

When you mouse over the flag, the text "Flag this comment for moderation" appears. Which is - I think - an improvement for desktop/laptop users, but unfortunately phone/tablet browsers don't get the mouseover function.
posted by Jeanne at 8:34 PM on November 15, 2023 [2 favorites]

The flag icon is wider than the exclamation point, which makes it easier to press or click.
posted by soelo at 9:51 PM on November 15, 2023 [13 favorites]

I have a small question about a previous item on September 20's site update that promised followup (apologies if I missed this somewhere).
In that site update there was a figure given on new subscriptions raised from 2023's fundraiser, with the caveat that this did not include old, lapsed subscriptions. It was indicated that an update would be provided with an updated figure factoring in the lapsed subscriptions.
Has there been an update - or, if there hasn't, would it be possible to get this figure now?
posted by aielen at 4:18 AM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]

The flag icon is wider than the exclamation point, which makes it easier to press or click.

A click/tap target should be at least 24 by 24 pixels for AA accessibility standards or 44 by 44 pixels for AAA.

The new flag is only 10 by 19 (and the favourite + is 8 by 19).
posted by fabius at 5:57 AM on November 16, 2023 [18 favorites]

Yeah, I don't understand... if the posts obviously can have "[add to favorites]" and "[flag this post]" under them, why can't the comments as well?

The whole point of the original MeTa about the flag function was that it's purposes were inscrutable and non-intuitive. Replacing it with a design that only kinda resembles a flag (I thought it was a hand-wave at first glance) does not change the issue.

There were so many useful suggestions in that post from 2020 about the wording that could replace the [+] and [!], were those not considered?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:09 AM on November 16, 2023 [11 favorites]

Perhaps we could add the ⚑ to the [flag this post] link in the main post, as an additional hint to what [⚑] does.

[⚑ flag this post]
[flag this post ⚑]
posted by zamboni at 7:07 AM on November 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

A click/tap target should be at least 24 by 24 pixels for AA accessibility standards or 44 by 44 pixels for AAA.

The new flag is only 10 by 19 (and the favourite + is 8 by 19).

I’m not an accessibility expert, but isn’t text size “determined by the user agent and is not modified by the author”?
posted by zamboni at 7:11 AM on November 16, 2023

I’m not an accessibility expert...

Me neither, but I hope there are some here.

...but isn’t text size “determined by the user agent and is not modified by the author”?

Yes, and also, from that page, another exception: "The target is in a sentence or its size is otherwise constrained by the line-height of non-target text;"

BUT just because these controls are displayed in a line of text – as opposed to being in a separate, less "textual", place – I'd say that they're still controls or buttons, rather than "inline links" that are "constrained by the line-height of non-target text".

I mean, yes, you could go by the letter of the "law" and say that this complies because they're in a line of text and the user can make the text as big as they like in their browser* to make the controls larger... But I'd only expect some corporate client who had no interest in putting any effort into accessibility to try and wriggle out of this like that.

* But note that even changing the text size of my entire iPhone, in its Settings, doesn't change the text size of Metafilter's text, and thus the controls, so this doesn't get us anywhere.
posted by fabius at 7:33 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

But these are only the "first changes" to the flagging UI. There are so many other things about the current flagging UI that make it inaccessible, that the link's size would be the least of the problems for some people. Hopefully improvements for it all are still in the works.

Whether it's worth spending a long time solely on this small feature, when the entire site's ageing front-end code is probably pretty inaccessible is another matter.
posted by fabius at 7:47 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

The Contact Us link keeps redirecting to this post.

Fixed that, was just an accidentally blank link.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:15 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

I find [⚑] visually jarring. Maybe it's just me, maybe I'll get used to it, I know I'm bikeshedding so here are all these caveats saying it's not the end of the world — nevertheless, I find it a way stronger visual indicator not just from [!] but from any of its sibling elements except staff badges (which make sense to emphasize). The solid high-contrast splash grabs my attention when scanning the page in a way that seems excessive.

IMO [flag] would be a far better choice.
posted by daveliepmann at 10:47 AM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]

seconding that the [⚑] visual is definitely more noticeable for this longish time user. Don't know if I'd say jarring. Am pretty sure it's going to lead to more flagging, which is the intention, I guess.
posted by philip-random at 11:21 AM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]

creatrixtiara: ...lately I've been getting double emails of the "Ask Mefi Followup" variety!

Me, too. I emailed about it, but I am curious whether it's just the two of us, or others as well.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:13 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

Why opt for an onclick handler on a link? Why not use a button for button things?
posted by otsebyatina at 1:34 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

(With the caveat that I feel awkward commenting on ancient code that other people are silently responsible for keeping going.)

Why opt for an onclick handler on a link? Why not use a button for button things?

Presumably because that's the way things were done when this code was originally written. MeFi's HTML is like a carefully maintained museum piece with little updated recently, by the look of it. It's not an example of best practises for accessibility etc in 2023. Because it's old.

Yes, it should probably be a button, or at least have the role="button" attribute, but it would still need JavaScript to listen for clicks on it. But there are many other accessibility problems with this one tiny interaction so it seems futile to get hung up on the details at this point, when (a) these are only the "first changes" to the flagging UI and (b) even if the flagging UI was perfect, there are plenty of other issues with old code all over the place.
posted by fabius at 8:15 AM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]

Why is the new flagging affordance different between posts and comments?

The dark grey flag icon is very hard to see on the mid grey MetaTalk background (on mobile, using Chrome and the classic theme).

There were so many useful suggestions in that post (…) were those not considered?

Why opt for an onclick handler on a link? Why not use a button for button things?

– The main holdup in getting any visible changes in the flagging UI was that this required changing/fixing the code in hundreds of places because the byline had been copied and pasted hundreds of times across all subsites and themes and then those copies have been changed over time. So these first changes to the Flagging UI are not final, but rather the first visible change. From here, the idea is to collect feedback from all of you, identify bugs and places where the changes have not yet taken effect. So far it looks like changing the flag link to [Report!] or [Flag!] everywhere seems to be the most common agreement. Please keep providing your feedback here.

In that site update there was a figure given on new subscriptions raised from 2023's fundraiser, with the caveat that this did not include old, lapsed subscriptions. It was indicated that an update would be provided with an updated figure factoring in the lapsed subscriptions.
Has there been an update - or, if there hasn't, would it be possible to get this figure now?

– Sure. We have been able to resume roughly ~$200/month in subscriptions by reaching out to members since then (bear in mind that most of these come from $5 subscriptions). These come from our manual reach out efforts. I have not pulled numbers from the ones that are being solved by the automated emails that users now get, since several of these get solved before we can actually identify them.

I've been getting double emails of the "Ask Mefi Followup" variety!

– Thank you! I reported this to frimble on Wednesday!
posted by loup (staff) at 12:18 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]

So far it looks like changing the flag link to [Report!] or [Flag!] everywhere seems to be the most common agreement. Please keep providing your feedback here.

If you want actual feedback on this, it would make sense to start a separate MeTa about it. Presumably people aren't going to be assuming that "Welcome to your monthly Site Update! You can find the last Site Update here." is the place to post feedback on a flag icon.
posted by lapis at 12:34 PM on November 17, 2023 [10 favorites]

creatrixtiara: ...lately I've been getting double emails of the "Ask Mefi Followup" variety!

Me, too. I emailed about it, but I am curious whether it's just the two of us, or others as well.

Same here. I used the contact form to report it but have heard nothing back. I'm assuming it's on the low priority pile, which is understandable.
posted by bondcliff at 1:06 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]

Sure. We have been able to resume roughly ~$200/month in subscriptions by reaching out to members since then (bear in mind that most of these come from $5 subscriptions). These come from our manual reach out efforts. I have not pulled numbers from the ones that are being solved by the automated emails that users now get, since several of these get solved before we can actually identify them.

Thanks Loup! I appreciate the response, but it doesn’t quite answer the question.

The September site update originally stated “We raised $882.00 in new subscriptions and $14,203.00 in individual contributions.... This does not include the old, lapsed subscriptions that are now resuming as part of our ongoing reach out campaign. I’m still compiling the specific data for this and will provide an update."

You’ve just responded with the sum of lapsed subscriptions that have resumed since that site update, but not stated the total amount of lapsed subscriptions as of that original site update. In order for us to get the figure for net subscriptions pledged/raised after the commencement of the fundraiser, we’d basically need to know:

- The sum of new subscriptions pledged (which September’s update stated was $882.00 - I assume by $882 the update meant $882/month)
- The sum of subscriptions that lapsed / were cancelled

And then we would subtract the latter from the former. If any of the lapsed subscriptions have since resumed since September, then we would add the sum of these resumed subscriptions to that number to arrive at the current net.

If I am understanding correctly, what you’ve just stated seems to be the figure for lapsed subscriptions that have resumed since September’s site update. That still does not give us a clear picture of what the net subscriptions raised through the fundraiser were/are (nor does it give an idea of the current net), since neither site update has stated the number for subscriptions that were lapsed/cancelled as of the time of the September update.
posted by aielen at 2:14 PM on November 17, 2023 [21 favorites]

So far it looks like changing the flag link to [Report!] or [Flag!] everywhere seems to be the most common agreement

I like either of those options, with a slight preference for "[Report!]" to replace the current option.

I don't think this should be a separate MeTa. There is a discussion happening here. Anyone who cares enough to comment is, I would suspect, the sort of person who reads site updates.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:34 AM on November 18, 2023 [4 favorites]

I find [⚑] visually jarring. Maybe it's just me, maybe I'll get used to it, I know I'm bikeshedding so here are all these caveats saying it's not the end of the world — nevertheless, I find it a way stronger visual indicator not just from [!] but from any of its sibling elements except staff badges (which make sense to emphasize). The solid high-contrast splash grabs my attention when scanning the page in a way that seems excessive.

IMO [flag] would be a far better choice.

Same. I find the current symbol stands out way too much on the page. (It does give a quick way to skim to see how long comments are, though.) I'd prefer a visually lighter option, either a different flag symbol or the word "flag".

From an accessibility point of view, having a symbol requires people to correctly interpret what the symbol is ("oh, that's a flag") then make a mental connection between a representation of a flag and the use of the word"flagging" to mean signaling, and after all that to then click on it and select options. Having a clear word there ("report" say) skips most of that process and gets you straight to the result.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:44 AM on November 18, 2023 [7 favorites]

Old reddit just has "report". New reddit has a flag icon next to the text "Report", though you have to click [...] to get to that menu. So a flag icon for this action isn't totally unique to Metafilter.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 7:15 AM on November 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

I forgot to mention a critical detail: I'm on "modern dark" theme. I just tried the others and maybe it's less of an issue there?
posted by daveliepmann at 11:17 AM on November 18, 2023

Keep the symbol, please.
posted by einekleine at 12:59 PM on November 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

I like the icon, for two reasons. First:

It does give a quick way to skim to see how long comments are, though

Same. When rapidly going through a long thread of comments, it's quicker to spot which are the summative, shorter comments, and which are the essays (and who has written them, as the MeFite name is on the same line).

Second, it doesn't look like a flag. Maybe one of these flags, but it more resembles a meat cleaver. Which feels more appropriate: object to the comment, then click on the meat cleaver, select the option, and - if the moderator agrees - then CHOP.

So, +1; combined with the "flag with note" option which was an essential addition to bypass the restrictively narrow categories, it's a good system.
posted by Wordshore at 2:04 AM on November 19, 2023

The main holdup in getting any visible changes in the flagging UI was that this required changing/fixing the code in hundreds of places because the byline had been copied and pasted hundreds of times across all subsites and themes and then those copies have been changed over time.

I like these occasional glimpses into the MetaFilter codebase, which feel like they resemble whatever Whitehead saw when he disappeared into the tent in A Field in England.

This may be wildly wrong, but Cascading Style Sheets appeared in late '96, and there's a vision of a young Matty, all blonde locks, surfboard and Nirvana t-shirt, building the formative codebase a few years later, reading about the latest CSS guidelines and mumbling "mmmm, nope to that".
posted by Wordshore at 2:21 AM on November 19, 2023 [5 favorites]

Can we add "Check for and reply to Contact Us emails" as a regularly scheduled task for mods and management? It looks like from the comments above that this might have been dropped recently and I have had the same experience as well.

Thanks!
posted by mochapickle at 7:45 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]

Can we add "Check for and reply to Contact Us emails" as a regularly scheduled task for mods and management?

It's on the task list already.

However, we have some process issues when a thing that comes in on one mod's shift either needs some sort of feedback from frimble, a second set of eyes generally, or from loup or me. There's been a loose plan to move to an email inbox management system (with ability to flag items for follow-up and assign them to people) and we just haven't reached that point yet. Most emails that are not abusive get answered but I think not everyone on the mod team sees "FYI" types of emails as needing a reply. I'll stress that even a quick "Thanks for the heads up" reply is considered how we should be doing things.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:00 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]

Hi Jessamyn, my most recent Contact Us message was a friendly request to see if we could somehow amplify the annual gift exchange signup post, maybe either on the banner or in the sidebar, which had been done in previous years. Having hosted this event myself in the past, I know that not everyone notices the thread here on the gray and they end up missing it, so the sidebar is helpful. (The organizers do send out a notification email, so that helps a lot, too.)

The gift exchange is a great little tradition here at Metafilter -- people specifically mentioned it in the member survey. It's proof that the community model works: It requires little to no no resources from mods and management, and yet it goes a long way to build community and site friendships year after year. I'm disappointed that management and mods felt that it wasn't important enough to reply or take any action.
posted by mochapickle at 10:00 AM on November 19, 2023 [8 favorites]

i like the new flag, it's cute :)
posted by Sebmojo at 10:10 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]

I'm disappointed that management and mods felt that it wasn't important enough to reply or take any action.

I absolutely hear that and I agree that there was no reason that shouldn't have gotten both a response and some sort of action from the team and I'm sorry for that. I'll discuss it with loup on Monday when they are back.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:14 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]

Keep the symbol, please.

It's a flag, could there be a bit of waving in the wind animation?
posted by sammyo at 7:51 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]

⚑⚑⚑⚑⚑ Not sure how serious people are being but the flag seems to be the unicode 2691 character "Black Flag". It's not a custom image, so how it shows depends partly on your own browser and device setup. That's arguably good for accessibility as a screenreader should know that it's a flag. It also takes up a minimal amount of data. But it's not going to wave unless you customize your own system somehow. ⚑⚑⚑⚑⚑
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:10 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]

TheophileEscargot: ...the flag seems to be the unicode 2691 character "Black Flag".

So could we get a tiny GIF of Henry Rollins's face, then? That would rule.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:26 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]

could there be a bit of waving in the wind animation

OMG no.
posted by Mitheral at 9:18 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]

If the flag's going to wave in the wind, then the wind should spin the favorites [+] pinwheel, too. Otherwise what are we even doing here.
posted by nobody at 10:46 AM on November 20, 2023 [7 favorites]

@mochapickle, sorry about that I just replied to your email and gave some context.

@aielen Monthly Recurring Revenue (MRR) had decreased by $1,730.00/month back then and we got $882/month in new subscriptions. Back then, I meant to let you know how much we’ve gotten back in lapsed subscriptions that are resuming (the ~$200/month figure above) rather than compile a list of lapsed subscriptions including the full breakdown.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:16 PM on November 20, 2023

So subscription revenue is still significantly down, even with some lapsed subscriptions being resumed? That’s much worse news than the headline figure of “$882/month in new subscriptions” that was shared more widely and is in retrospect misleadingly positive.

Can you please share a month by month readout of MRR for the last year or two?
posted by adrianhon at 12:05 PM on November 28, 2023 [11 favorites]

Hello, the "Help us Plan The Future Of MetaFilter" banner at the top links to a MeTa that is now closed.

Can someone please clarify if turning the comments flag from [!] into [⚑] is considered to be the end resolution for the problems outlined in this MeTa from 2020?

Also, is there an update on the job posting that went out for a technical position? The "MetaFilter is hiring" job notice was posted, and then it was taken down around November 10, but no word on whether a candidate was selected.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:12 AM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]

Hello, I feel like 5 days is sufficient time to await a response, because I'm assuming that if loup had been unable to check on this thread for that long a time, someone else would have covered for them -- because that's professional site moderation, yes? At this point I'm wondering if the reply or the follow-up information will just be rolled into the December 15 Site Update? Or should I re-ask the question when that thread appears?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:26 AM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]

@The Pluto Gangsta: Thank you for pinging us about this directly! This thread had been dormant for a while so I did not see your questions earlier, I'm sorry about that.

– the "Help us Plan The Future Of MetaFilter" banner at the top links to a MeTa that is now closed.

We have not changed this because that is, to this day, the most comprehensive post we have about the transition.

– Can someone please clarify if turning the comments flag from [!] into [⚑] is considered to be the end resolution for the problems outlined in this MeTa from 2020?

No, frimble is not yet done changing the code across all subsites, the main goal of this release is to finally make visible changes, this will allow us to see if there are any bugs and to iterate from there.

– Also, is there an update on the job posting that went out for a technical position? The "MetaFilter is hiring" job notice was posted, and then it was taken down around November 10, but no word on whether a candidate was selected.

Yes, we already have a shortlist of candidates and we are reaching out to each candidate, we'll let you know once a person has been selected.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:14 PM on December 12, 2023 [2 favorites]

I’ll reply to your feedback and questions at least twice a week.

If you say this, maybe that's what you should do until comments are closed? If that means closing comments sooner, then do that.

I appreciate that you now set expectations for how often you will be able to respond to questions, but... you need to actually do it.

(I see adrianhon's comment from over two weeks ago has no response.)
posted by fabius at 5:10 AM on December 13, 2023 [11 favorites]

I’ll reply to your feedback and questions at least twice a week.
vs
Thank you for pinging us about this directly! This thread had been dormant for a while so I did not see your questions earlier, I'm sorry about that.

Yeah, it's not so much the "waiting for an answer" part that bother me, it's the breaking of explicitly-set self-proclaimed expectations.

Is that the new norm -- that everyone who asks questions in MeTa Site Updates should also use the Contact Form to message the mods? Is there a keyword or phrase we should use in our comments to trip some automatic switch to remind you to return here? Or is it no longer reasonable for you to be the only mod who answers comments here?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:40 AM on December 13, 2023 [11 favorites]