Movie Review System on FanFare? September 8, 2023 10:35 AM Subscribe
In the post on Rotten Tomatoes, someone mentioned Metacritic, which immediately made my inner reader voice add “(no relation)”. And it made me wonder - at this point, especially thanks to DirtyOldTown’s continuing fantastic posting of older movies, whether we could add a “liked it / it was ok / didn’t like it” button that people could click that would show as a metric under the post, like a favorites count.
A lot of times I’ll watch an older movie, or watch a new movie a few weeks after it came out, and feel weird adding to a dead discussion. But I’d definitely weigh in that I liked it (or didn’t). And I there are times I consider skimming the threads for a movie ahead of time to see what people are thinking, but because they contain spoilers I don’t really read them. But I trust MeFites’ opinions more than most of the churn out there.
I don’t think it would need more metrics than up down and neutral, since anyone who really loves or hates something speaks up in the thread. I do think having an “just ok” option is better than having to choose between good and bad, though, since a majority of people saying something is fine is also meaningful.
A lot of times I’ll watch an older movie, or watch a new movie a few weeks after it came out, and feel weird adding to a dead discussion. But I’d definitely weigh in that I liked it (or didn’t). And I there are times I consider skimming the threads for a movie ahead of time to see what people are thinking, but because they contain spoilers I don’t really read them. But I trust MeFites’ opinions more than most of the churn out there.
I don’t think it would need more metrics than up down and neutral, since anyone who really loves or hates something speaks up in the thread. I do think having an “just ok” option is better than having to choose between good and bad, though, since a majority of people saying something is fine is also meaningful.
Yes yes and if I could also go back, like favorites, and see a list of what I've liked, that would be very nice.
posted by phunniemee at 11:49 AM on September 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 11:49 AM on September 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'd like to rate things one of
Unreserved Joy
Problematic Fave
A Pleasant Diversion
Capital Meh
Temporal Refund Please
I really don't like netflix's tired/wired or even tired/wired/inspired thumbs. I want at least a little nuance. Just tally up the votes in the categories, don't try and do a numeric average.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:09 PM on September 8, 2023 [19 favorites]
Unreserved Joy
Problematic Fave
A Pleasant Diversion
Capital Meh
Temporal Refund Please
I really don't like netflix's tired/wired or even tired/wired/inspired thumbs. I want at least a little nuance. Just tally up the votes in the categories, don't try and do a numeric average.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:09 PM on September 8, 2023 [19 favorites]
I dream that MeFi will fill the gap left behind by the TWoP forums for discussing media.
posted by Threeve at 3:21 PM on September 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Threeve at 3:21 PM on September 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'd like a button for "ooh that sounds good and I should watch it some day!" Right now I copy things to a Notes file, but it would be neat if I could bring up all the pages for my "to be watched" movies.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:32 PM on September 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:32 PM on September 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
Why is there a separate category for Music, but not writing or films by Metaites?
posted by Ideefixe at 3:59 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 3:59 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Why is there a separate category for Music, but not writing or films by Metaites?
I think that'd be a fine question for its own MeTa. What do you think about the ranking system discussed here?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:09 PM on September 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think that'd be a fine question for its own MeTa. What do you think about the ranking system discussed here?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:09 PM on September 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
One comment from the Rotten Tomatoes post that resonated with my own long-time thoughts addresses the idea that there's more to movie reactions than the "like/dislike" axis; there's also a "this is a good/bad film" axis (or "well-/badly made" or so on). A "meh/neutral/shrug" setting would be welcome too.
At the risk of complicating it with more nuance, I would find it more informative (and feel more encouraged to contribute my own ratings) to have a kind of matrix described in that thread. (Doesn't have to be super complicated--just two bars or numbers to reflect the different metrics.)
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:34 PM on September 8, 2023
At the risk of complicating it with more nuance, I would find it more informative (and feel more encouraged to contribute my own ratings) to have a kind of matrix described in that thread. (Doesn't have to be super complicated--just two bars or numbers to reflect the different metrics.)
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:34 PM on September 8, 2023
Back before the AV Club and the related sites got bought by venture capital and ditched the existing commenting system (Disqus) for something newer and stupider, the movie reviews had a recurring commenter called "ZODIAC MOTHERFUCKER" (always all caps) who would often drop in. (He's gone from AVC, but he's still on Twitter.)
He had only two ratings for movies: OPTIONAL and NOT OPTIONAL. Actually, that's not true, he had a third option for real stinkers called WACK AS FUCK.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:20 PM on September 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
He had only two ratings for movies: OPTIONAL and NOT OPTIONAL. Actually, that's not true, he had a third option for real stinkers called WACK AS FUCK.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:20 PM on September 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
- Unreserved Joy
- Problematic Fave
- A Pleasant Diversion
- Capital Meh
- Temporal Refund Please
Love the rhetoric but would this really be any different from the clichéd and annoying "Do You Strongly Agree/Agree/(null)/Disagree/Strongly Disagree" metrics we're all too familiar with, from surveys? I'm more in favor of just an optional Loved It/Hated It choice.
posted by Rash at 8:58 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
1. Glorious Trash Fire is missing from that list
2. Didn't we just have a thread about why this is a terrible idea?
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 2:13 AM on September 9, 2023
2. Didn't we just have a thread about why this is a terrible idea?
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 2:13 AM on September 9, 2023
I'd love this feature. If it succeeded it'd be a good way to bring new users in to Metafilter.
Strongly feel it's important to keep any poll like this simple. Even three choices might be one too many.
posted by Nelson at 6:57 AM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Strongly feel it's important to keep any poll like this simple. Even three choices might be one too many.
posted by Nelson at 6:57 AM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I liked the WH Auden categories of response that Well I Never mentioned very much and I think it would be innovative and interesting to use those:
1. This is good, and I like it.
2. This is not good and I don't like it.
3. I don't like this, but I recognize that it is good. I might come to like it in time.
4. I recognize that this is not good, but I like it anyway.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:59 AM on September 9, 2023 [26 favorites]
1. This is good, and I like it.
2. This is not good and I don't like it.
3. I don't like this, but I recognize that it is good. I might come to like it in time.
4. I recognize that this is not good, but I like it anyway.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:59 AM on September 9, 2023 [26 favorites]
And also, much like how Favorites work, allow us to change our own ratings at any time.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 7:56 AM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 7:56 AM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't have much use for a like/dislike kind of rating. I want to hear your WHY. I want to slurp the delicious turnings of your thought. It will also contain more information about the book/movie/whatever.
posted by fleacircus at 8:41 AM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by fleacircus at 8:41 AM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I want to hear your WHY.
yeah honestly I really don't get this idea in the context of what FanFare seems best suited for, which is actual conversations about interesting or thought-provoking works. if I want review aggregation, there are already places for that and they're generally killing media criticism. what there are fewer of (as an at least indirect result) are places for actual substantive discussions
posted by Kybard at 9:08 AM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
yeah honestly I really don't get this idea in the context of what FanFare seems best suited for, which is actual conversations about interesting or thought-provoking works. if I want review aggregation, there are already places for that and they're generally killing media criticism. what there are fewer of (as an at least indirect result) are places for actual substantive discussions
posted by Kybard at 9:08 AM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
in the context of what FanFare seems best suited forYeah, but also, FanFare having relatively limited display options beyond "order of posting" means that right now it's mainly suited for being DirtyOldTown's movie liveblog. I don't think DirtyOldTown should post less, but it would be nice to have other views to make discovering other content easier, so that more conversation could happen. I'd like to see that before a rating mechanic.
That said, I'm on record as no longer being a paying customer, so discount that opinion as you feel appropriate!
posted by Alterscape at 10:41 AM on September 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
I am also in favor of multiple views for the front page. There's the "post with recent comments" view, but I've always been in favor of something more complex, maybe something that would let you choose between recently commented, recently posted, and in order of newest release.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:04 AM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:04 AM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: That said, I'm on record as no longer being a paying customer, so discount that opinion as you feel appropriate!
To be clear, the moderation team don't care about who's contributed funds to the site. It's not a factor in our decisions and besides for management, most of the team has no access to these details.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:06 AM on September 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
To be clear, the moderation team don't care about who's contributed funds to the site. It's not a factor in our decisions and besides for management, most of the team has no access to these details.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:06 AM on September 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm always in favor of whatever drives participation in FF so a voting mechanism sounds good to me. Lurking is a longstanding tradition at MeFi and if people want to participate in terms of a simple vote even if they're not up for a review/discussion, that sounds cool. It might not be a bad idea to have a watchlist function either, so that people could make a list of things they intend to see later.
As a follow-up to the thing on the relative number of posts by me (and a handful of other folks). I didn't take that personally as I accept it in the way it was offered, in good spirits. But it did lead me to some points I have been wanting to bring up.
There had been a commonly held belief at one time that posts on the FF should tilt heavily toward those people would be looking for: megapopular TV shows, wide release theatricals, the very latest Netflix, or things that had re-entered the zeitgeist.
The thing is, I think that sort of misunderstood the nature of MeFi, who its people are, and what we do here.
Generally speaking, people do not come here solely to be briefed on and discuss the buzziest topics of the day. It's nice to be able to do that with the smarter and more empathetic than average folks here, but that has never been our only draw.
People come here to find links to things they would not have known about, sideways takes on things they'd have never bumped into, and great things they didn't realize we're overdue to think about and talk about again.
To that end, yeah, I am aware that the latest episode of the new Star Wars show will be incrementally lower on the page if I recommend an Indonesian gangster movie or a Korean spy comedy, or a forgotten 70's film. But there's definitely still a place for the latter, and really, oddball posts like these are very, very in the spirit of MeFi.
I mean, The corpse in the library's post on Ice Station Zebra was as active as most of the threads for episodes of The Afterparty. And I think that's neat. There has always been a space for being weird here.
That said, the displaying in order of recent posts thing does weight quirkier posts in a weird way.
It'd be great to have a default view that could be tweaked in various ways: favor new releases; favor busy discussions; favor more "liked" votes (if/when that were to become a thing.)
It's probably one of the most obvious asks for FF, but also one of the ones that would require the most work. So it's tricky.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:34 AM on September 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
As a follow-up to the thing on the relative number of posts by me (and a handful of other folks). I didn't take that personally as I accept it in the way it was offered, in good spirits. But it did lead me to some points I have been wanting to bring up.
There had been a commonly held belief at one time that posts on the FF should tilt heavily toward those people would be looking for: megapopular TV shows, wide release theatricals, the very latest Netflix, or things that had re-entered the zeitgeist.
The thing is, I think that sort of misunderstood the nature of MeFi, who its people are, and what we do here.
Generally speaking, people do not come here solely to be briefed on and discuss the buzziest topics of the day. It's nice to be able to do that with the smarter and more empathetic than average folks here, but that has never been our only draw.
People come here to find links to things they would not have known about, sideways takes on things they'd have never bumped into, and great things they didn't realize we're overdue to think about and talk about again.
To that end, yeah, I am aware that the latest episode of the new Star Wars show will be incrementally lower on the page if I recommend an Indonesian gangster movie or a Korean spy comedy, or a forgotten 70's film. But there's definitely still a place for the latter, and really, oddball posts like these are very, very in the spirit of MeFi.
I mean, The corpse in the library's post on Ice Station Zebra was as active as most of the threads for episodes of The Afterparty. And I think that's neat. There has always been a space for being weird here.
That said, the displaying in order of recent posts thing does weight quirkier posts in a weird way.
It'd be great to have a default view that could be tweaked in various ways: favor new releases; favor busy discussions; favor more "liked" votes (if/when that were to become a thing.)
It's probably one of the most obvious asks for FF, but also one of the ones that would require the most work. So it's tricky.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:34 AM on September 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
Thanks for the clarification, Brandon! (I think you're missing a don't in that message, though). That said, my comment was specifically to the management as this thread is essentially a request to allocate some of Frimble's time ("a pony request" to be cute) so I'm not sure info about how non-management mods feel is strictly relevant, unless you have a say in that.
Also, DirtyOldTown, thank you for not interpreting my comment as a criticism. You do bring up neat films I wouldn't necessarily have known about/thought about, and I think that's valuable. I agree that there should be room for both contemporary media and also interesting older content, for the reasons you describe. The challenge is making it all discoverable and enabling discussion.
I think there's another challenge around supporting multiple kinds of discussion. I hypothesize that This Week's Popular Watercooler Talk Prestige TV is going to have a very different kind of rapid discussion right around posting-time that trails off, whereas even if they were more discoverable, absent some kind of club/organized watch, The Classics are likely to receive comments more spread-out in time. Those comments are probably more individual reactions, less ongoing conversation with other commenters, due to the asynchronous nature. That's actually different from almost every other way people engage with the site, so maybe deserves some thought. I could be wrong, but that's my mental model.
Anyhow, this is far off from the original pony so I'm going to leave it here, per EmpressCallipygos' note above.
posted by Alterscape at 11:46 AM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, DirtyOldTown, thank you for not interpreting my comment as a criticism. You do bring up neat films I wouldn't necessarily have known about/thought about, and I think that's valuable. I agree that there should be room for both contemporary media and also interesting older content, for the reasons you describe. The challenge is making it all discoverable and enabling discussion.
I think there's another challenge around supporting multiple kinds of discussion. I hypothesize that This Week's Popular Watercooler Talk Prestige TV is going to have a very different kind of rapid discussion right around posting-time that trails off, whereas even if they were more discoverable, absent some kind of club/organized watch, The Classics are likely to receive comments more spread-out in time. Those comments are probably more individual reactions, less ongoing conversation with other commenters, due to the asynchronous nature. That's actually different from almost every other way people engage with the site, so maybe deserves some thought. I could be wrong, but that's my mental model.
Anyhow, this is far off from the original pony so I'm going to leave it here, per EmpressCallipygos' note above.
posted by Alterscape at 11:46 AM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I dream that MeFi will fill the gap left behind by the TWoP forums for discussing media.
There was a moment, nearly a decade ago, when that could have happened.
posted by betweenthebars at 1:12 PM on September 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
There was a moment, nearly a decade ago, when that could have happened.
posted by betweenthebars at 1:12 PM on September 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Reading the FanFare comments is fun, but sometimes I want a simple trophy-or-lemon icon when I am skimming to find something to watch.
I support this pony.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:40 PM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I support this pony.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:40 PM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
The one I Hate to Bring It Up But Someone Should caveat on this is that we can have a voting thing, a yay or nay even, but very, very few films/shows/whatever will ever get enough votes here to tell you much.
Maybe in the sidebar we could show: option to vote; current MeFi rating; number of voters; last five voters; click through to see all votes.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:43 PM on September 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Maybe in the sidebar we could show: option to vote; current MeFi rating; number of voters; last five voters; click through to see all votes.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:43 PM on September 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
In addition to the WH Auden ratings, I also thought the idea raised in that thread that a histogram (or more than one) rather than a single number would be a lot more informative. But I also agree with DOT that the numbers per media property would be so small that it would be hard to get meaningful information, and that's exacerbated by breaking them out further. Still, this seems like a cool idea. I don't think it's any more antithetical to discussion than the voting function is in Projects.
posted by solotoro at 4:24 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by solotoro at 4:24 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've wished for this in the past and would use it in the future.
In the meantime, I think someone mentioned this in the RT thread, but there is a very limited workaround for movies only (not TV, etc.): sign up for Letterboxd and follow a bunch of Mefites there. As you browse movies, Letterboxd will show you ratings given by people you follow and highlight their reviews, and you can sort films by their popularity with friends. If you also subscribe to Letterboxd, it has a JustWatch integration that will allow you to select rental/streaming services you like--then, as you browse and/or filter movies, you'll be able to see which ones are available wherever you tend to watch.
FWIW Letterboxd has other ways to engage. For the Halloween season, there's currently an endurance challenge going on called 100 Horror Movies in 92 Days (which has a Discord linked there, running all year with occasional discussion / recommendation of horror films), and starting Sept. 15, there's Hooptober X, essentially a horror film bingo challenge now in its tenth year.
posted by Wobbuffet at 5:19 PM on September 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
In the meantime, I think someone mentioned this in the RT thread, but there is a very limited workaround for movies only (not TV, etc.): sign up for Letterboxd and follow a bunch of Mefites there. As you browse movies, Letterboxd will show you ratings given by people you follow and highlight their reviews, and you can sort films by their popularity with friends. If you also subscribe to Letterboxd, it has a JustWatch integration that will allow you to select rental/streaming services you like--then, as you browse and/or filter movies, you'll be able to see which ones are available wherever you tend to watch.
FWIW Letterboxd has other ways to engage. For the Halloween season, there's currently an endurance challenge going on called 100 Horror Movies in 92 Days (which has a Discord linked there, running all year with occasional discussion / recommendation of horror films), and starting Sept. 15, there's Hooptober X, essentially a horror film bingo challenge now in its tenth year.
posted by Wobbuffet at 5:19 PM on September 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
yeah honestly I really don't get this idea in the context of what FanFare seems best suited for, which is actual conversations about interesting or thought-provoking works. if I want review aggregation, there are already places for that and they're generally killing media criticism. what there are fewer of (as an at least indirect result) are places for actual substantive discussions
So... I think this would help. There's.. mm. There's what I consider a lot of "social media posting" to Fanfare -- enthusiastic folks will make a post, include an IMDB or other outsourced summary, and maybe - MAYBE - include their own thoughts on it. Then maybe - MAYBE - a few people will offer up some comments. Then it scrolls off with another dozen "here's a thing" posts. I don't think there's that much conversation happening for most Fanfare posts. I wonder if this would actually HELP that because if I see a dozen people have voted "Problematic Fave" but no one has made a comment, I could post in the thread and maybe send a memail to people (please show us who voted what) to say, "hey, can you say more about this?"
posted by curious nu at 6:07 PM on September 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
So... I think this would help. There's.. mm. There's what I consider a lot of "social media posting" to Fanfare -- enthusiastic folks will make a post, include an IMDB or other outsourced summary, and maybe - MAYBE - include their own thoughts on it. Then maybe - MAYBE - a few people will offer up some comments. Then it scrolls off with another dozen "here's a thing" posts. I don't think there's that much conversation happening for most Fanfare posts. I wonder if this would actually HELP that because if I see a dozen people have voted "Problematic Fave" but no one has made a comment, I could post in the thread and maybe send a memail to people (please show us who voted what) to say, "hey, can you say more about this?"
posted by curious nu at 6:07 PM on September 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
This is a savage idea and I support it.
posted by roolya_boolya at 6:42 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by roolya_boolya at 6:42 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd love to have ratings in fanfare! I read a lot more than I comment - I'll comment if I have something to say that hasn't already been said, but sometimes I feel like stuff I really liked isn't getting discussed as much as it deserves, so being able to leave like/dislike ratings would be satisfying.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 10:14 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 10:14 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
2. Didn't we just have a thread about why this is a terrible idea?
If you mean the Rotten Tomatoes post on the blue, I would just like to say that I think it makes it a great idea.
I will happily accept $50 give a positive rating to any indie feminist riff on Shakespeare!
posted by mark k at 9:03 AM on September 10, 2023
If you mean the Rotten Tomatoes post on the blue, I would just like to say that I think it makes it a great idea.
I will happily accept $50 give a positive rating to any indie feminist riff on Shakespeare!
posted by mark k at 9:03 AM on September 10, 2023
I'd like to rate things one of
minimum of five options with specific adjective attached (ie: great - good - okay - baddish - awful) so that we don't get into endless discussions as to what 3 stars means as opposed to 4.
I wouldn't have much use for a like/dislike kind of rating. I want to hear your WHY.
which is where discussion enters the picture.
posted by philip-random at 9:26 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
minimum of five options with specific adjective attached (ie: great - good - okay - baddish - awful) so that we don't get into endless discussions as to what 3 stars means as opposed to 4.
I wouldn't have much use for a like/dislike kind of rating. I want to hear your WHY.
which is where discussion enters the picture.
posted by philip-random at 9:26 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would love to have a rating+tagging option on FF posts and a way to use it for my own needs. Example: I'd like to be able to see all the posts that I haven't rated. From there, I can mark things with a rating, but also as watched/wanted/not wanted or read/wanted/not wanted. My issue with JustWatch, for example, is that they charge a premium to hide things you don't want to watch.
I know there are many sites that can already do this. I use far too many of them already, but the FF posts serve as a place for me to come back and discuss the item after watching. I would find a lot of value in being able to have my own FF queue of books, shows, movies, and other things that have existing discussions.
posted by soelo at 10:34 AM on September 10, 2023
I know there are many sites that can already do this. I use far too many of them already, but the FF posts serve as a place for me to come back and discuss the item after watching. I would find a lot of value in being able to have my own FF queue of books, shows, movies, and other things that have existing discussions.
posted by soelo at 10:34 AM on September 10, 2023
I dream that MeFi will fill the gap left behind by the TWoP forums for discussing media.
Primetimer has been doing that, and not just for TV.
posted by jgirl at 12:04 PM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would use this, I do want aggregated ratings from a curated group of smart and interesting people, absolutely. I would trust ratings from metafilter folks way more than other places on the web.
posted by catcafe at 6:38 PM on September 10, 2023
posted by catcafe at 6:38 PM on September 10, 2023
I, too, like this. I find a lot of books on Fanfare, with the majority of them having one or no comments. I also post a fair amount of books on Fanfare, the majority of which have one comment (my own).
I also like the Auden ranking system as mentioned above. Auden actually had 5 categories, though, as far as I can tell.
1. This is good, and I like it.
2. This is not good and I don't like it.
3. I don't like this, but I recognize that it is good. I might come to like it in time.
4. I recognize that this is not good, but I like it anyway.
5. This is good but I don't like it.
The fifth is different in that you recognize that even though it is good, it is something that you will never really come to like.
Or, in Auden's own words: For an adult reader, the possible verdicts are five: I can see this is good and I like it; I can see this is good but I don’t like it; I can see this is good and, though at present I don’t like it, I believe that with perseverance I shall come to like it; I can see that this is trash but I like it; I can see that this is trash and I don’t like it.
posted by Literaryhero at 9:23 PM on September 10, 2023
I also like the Auden ranking system as mentioned above. Auden actually had 5 categories, though, as far as I can tell.
1. This is good, and I like it.
2. This is not good and I don't like it.
3. I don't like this, but I recognize that it is good. I might come to like it in time.
4. I recognize that this is not good, but I like it anyway.
5. This is good but I don't like it.
The fifth is different in that you recognize that even though it is good, it is something that you will never really come to like.
Or, in Auden's own words: For an adult reader, the possible verdicts are five: I can see this is good and I like it; I can see this is good but I don’t like it; I can see this is good and, though at present I don’t like it, I believe that with perseverance I shall come to like it; I can see that this is trash but I like it; I can see that this is trash and I don’t like it.
posted by Literaryhero at 9:23 PM on September 10, 2023
I do not mean to complicate things, but I would add that many of my reviews fall into a sixth or seventh category, those being, "This is a middling thing that worked for me" or "This is a middling thing that did not work for me."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:53 AM on September 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:53 AM on September 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I could almost go for two dials:
-relative quality of thing (1 through 5)
-relative satisfaction I got from thing (1 through 5)
Barbie, for example, I'd probably rate well on both scales. Orphan: First Kill, I'd have probably ranked just a 3 on the first dial, but a 5 on the second. Last Voyage of the Demeter, which I admired, but found kind of boring at times? Probably a 4 on the first dial, and a 2 on the second.
There are a lot of movies I'd rank 3, then 4 and a lot I'd rank 4, then 3.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:16 AM on September 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
-relative quality of thing (1 through 5)
-relative satisfaction I got from thing (1 through 5)
Barbie, for example, I'd probably rate well on both scales. Orphan: First Kill, I'd have probably ranked just a 3 on the first dial, but a 5 on the second. Last Voyage of the Demeter, which I admired, but found kind of boring at times? Probably a 4 on the first dial, and a 2 on the second.
There are a lot of movies I'd rank 3, then 4 and a lot I'd rank 4, then 3.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:16 AM on September 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
All movies should be graded via the matrix table below. I will hear no arguments.
Fun-Smart | Thrilling-Smart | Tedious-Smart
Fun-Cozy | Thrilling-Cozy | Tedious-Cozy
Fun-Stupid | Thrilling-Stupid | Tedious-Stupid
What is an example of a Tedious-Cozy movie, you ask? The Yule Log is Tedious-Cozy.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 2:16 PM on September 11, 2023
Fun-Smart | Thrilling-Smart | Tedious-Smart
Fun-Cozy | Thrilling-Cozy | Tedious-Cozy
Fun-Stupid | Thrilling-Stupid | Tedious-Stupid
What is an example of a Tedious-Cozy movie, you ask? The Yule Log is Tedious-Cozy.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 2:16 PM on September 11, 2023
The Yule Log is Tedious-Cozy.
If you think that's tedious, definitely stay away from the sequels!
posted by aubilenon at 5:22 PM on September 11, 2023
If you think that's tedious, definitely stay away from the sequels!
posted by aubilenon at 5:22 PM on September 11, 2023
My favorite parts of fanfare are:
- when jscalzi connects all the dots in the magical cartoons
- when people explain changes from book to film, or when we last saw so-and-so
- jokes
- nuanced reviews
The first three fit well within a comment thread, but a separate section would encourage fanfare to become a place for more than chatter.
posted by rebent at 8:40 PM on September 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
- when jscalzi connects all the dots in the magical cartoons
- when people explain changes from book to film, or when we last saw so-and-so
- jokes
- nuanced reviews
The first three fit well within a comment thread, but a separate section would encourage fanfare to become a place for more than chatter.
posted by rebent at 8:40 PM on September 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
is there anything structurally stopping Fanfare from having straight up reviews/critiques. That is, somebody gets to post their eight hundred words (or whatever) on Barbie and it gets "tagged" as a review as opposed to just an invitation to discuss. Of course, there would be discussion, but it would be in response to the review as opposed to the show itself?
sounds suitably meta to me.
posted by philip-random at 9:01 PM on September 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
sounds suitably meta to me.
posted by philip-random at 9:01 PM on September 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
That is, somebody gets to post their eight hundred words (or whatever) on Barbie and it gets "tagged" as a review as opposed to just an invitation to discuss.
Like some kind of Fanfare "best answer" - I like it!
posted by Literaryhero at 1:04 AM on September 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Like some kind of Fanfare "best answer" - I like it!
posted by Literaryhero at 1:04 AM on September 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Same display adjustment as AskMe accepted answers, tagged as such by comment poster rather than thread poster? Sounds great!
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 3:20 AM on September 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 3:20 AM on September 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
is there anything structurally stopping Fanfare from having straight up reviews/critiques.
Not at all, that I can see: post your long-winded screed or your nuanced evaluation or your happy fangirl-ing, just like people do on Projects or Music. No telling where the comments will go, but that's always been true of the Internet since Eternal September started.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:17 AM on September 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Not at all, that I can see: post your long-winded screed or your nuanced evaluation or your happy fangirl-ing, just like people do on Projects or Music. No telling where the comments will go, but that's always been true of the Internet since Eternal September started.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:17 AM on September 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is a good idea, and I like it.
posted by umber vowel at 9:20 AM on September 12, 2023
posted by umber vowel at 9:20 AM on September 12, 2023
I'm not sure I'd find a ranking system overly useful personally but I can see how others might. For me what is important is always the context of the review or the reason one likes something.
From reading DoT's reviews, their ratings on Letterboxd and the type & quantity of the movies they watch I have a pretty good sense of where they are coming from on movies so I can use their reviews accordingly. I know we have some overlap but I also know where we don't. I know this for other frequent commenters as well. However, I don't know this for infrequent posters - so an opinion without context is nearly useless IMO.
So for it to be useful, for me anyways, I think having some way to analyse the ratings (maybe on the user's page?) or at least being able to see who listed this as a "like" might work (maybe as one can when clicking on Favorites for a comment) or to see what other things they've liked or disliked. Or a more nuanced approach like the Auden style approach (it probably should be expanded somewhat) as DoT mentioned above could be more revealing. A coupled gradient system could work maybe as DoT also mentioned. But ultimately some of these systems will produce largely unusable or negligible results without a lot of engagement. I like that idea of "best answer" for Fanfare - I think could work well.
But saying that, I recognise I am a weirdo in this particular space, so something helps engage people with a post on Fanfare, especially the more obscure ones, then sure why not.
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:45 AM on September 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
From reading DoT's reviews, their ratings on Letterboxd and the type & quantity of the movies they watch I have a pretty good sense of where they are coming from on movies so I can use their reviews accordingly. I know we have some overlap but I also know where we don't. I know this for other frequent commenters as well. However, I don't know this for infrequent posters - so an opinion without context is nearly useless IMO.
So for it to be useful, for me anyways, I think having some way to analyse the ratings (maybe on the user's page?) or at least being able to see who listed this as a "like" might work (maybe as one can when clicking on Favorites for a comment) or to see what other things they've liked or disliked. Or a more nuanced approach like the Auden style approach (it probably should be expanded somewhat) as DoT mentioned above could be more revealing. A coupled gradient system could work maybe as DoT also mentioned. But ultimately some of these systems will produce largely unusable or negligible results without a lot of engagement. I like that idea of "best answer" for Fanfare - I think could work well.
But saying that, I recognise I am a weirdo in this particular space, so something helps engage people with a post on Fanfare, especially the more obscure ones, then sure why not.
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:45 AM on September 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
A cultural fix could save the effort of coding a customization.
For example, every FanFare post could contain a line saying whether the poster would recommend it to a friend (or similar boilerplate), instead of adding the voting system or thumbs up/down, or what have you.
posted by wenestvedt at 3:29 PM on September 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
For example, every FanFare post could contain a line saying whether the poster would recommend it to a friend (or similar boilerplate), instead of adding the voting system or thumbs up/down, or what have you.
posted by wenestvedt at 3:29 PM on September 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Lots of people in this thread--including the OP--explicitly think the appealing part is the average or at least aggregated ratings that we can only get if it's a coded in as a specific rating rather than a text comment. That includes me FWIW.
posted by mark k at 7:56 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mark k at 7:56 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
There was a moment, nearly a decade ago, when that could have happened.
Yeah iirc FanFare launched just as layoffs started and I think that was a real momentum halt to a lot of things. And yes it was a decade ago and that's absolutely no excuse for why FanFare isn't more robust and has a lot more THERE there now. I always love it for popular shows where there's activity and show-by-show discussion (Ted Lasso was a recent one I remember enjoying) and always seems like a missed opportunity for shows that are less popular but still have people who like them and want to follow along. I also enjoy the way you can show up and comment in a thread for a show that may have aired years ago but, thanks to Recent Activity, can still have people see your comment and maybe chat. And despite the things I really don't like about Buzzfeed, I always kind of liked the little emoji-votes you could make on an article which were more than just thumbs-up or thumbs down. Not saying that's the way we'd like to go but I see the appeal generally and it would be nice to get something like this going. We've got a few things ahead of this idea in the pipeline but it does seem like a feature request with a lot of upsides and not a lot of downsides.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:22 PM on September 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yeah iirc FanFare launched just as layoffs started and I think that was a real momentum halt to a lot of things. And yes it was a decade ago and that's absolutely no excuse for why FanFare isn't more robust and has a lot more THERE there now. I always love it for popular shows where there's activity and show-by-show discussion (Ted Lasso was a recent one I remember enjoying) and always seems like a missed opportunity for shows that are less popular but still have people who like them and want to follow along. I also enjoy the way you can show up and comment in a thread for a show that may have aired years ago but, thanks to Recent Activity, can still have people see your comment and maybe chat. And despite the things I really don't like about Buzzfeed, I always kind of liked the little emoji-votes you could make on an article which were more than just thumbs-up or thumbs down. Not saying that's the way we'd like to go but I see the appeal generally and it would be nice to get something like this going. We've got a few things ahead of this idea in the pipeline but it does seem like a feature request with a lot of upsides and not a lot of downsides.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:22 PM on September 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
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posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 11:11 AM on September 8, 2023 [14 favorites]