Remove voting from MeFi Projects January 13, 2016 8:15 AM Subscribe
I think voting should be removed from MeFi Projects. What do others think?
It looks like it's been a while since this was discussed. There aren't so many projects per day that the votes are helpful for sifting through a huge volume of submissions. There's favorites if people want to give a mark of approval. MeFi Music doesn't have voting and it appears to work just fine.
The entire notion of voting for posts/contributions on MetaFilter seems to me to be anathema to the values of the site. Favorites are contentious enough as it is, and there are plenty of other places on the web to go for popularity contests.
It looks like it's been a while since this was discussed. There aren't so many projects per day that the votes are helpful for sifting through a huge volume of submissions. There's favorites if people want to give a mark of approval. MeFi Music doesn't have voting and it appears to work just fine.
The entire notion of voting for posts/contributions on MetaFilter seems to me to be anathema to the values of the site. Favorites are contentious enough as it is, and there are plenty of other places on the web to go for popularity contests.
I'd be happy to hear thoughts about this.
For historical context, votes were something Matt included when he launched Projects back in late 2005 as a way to make up for the intentional lack, at the time, of comments on Projects posts. "Okay, but what if we had comments though?" followed soon after; we added them a few years later.
Matt talks a bit in that last link about how his view of Projects changed over those first few years, from being a kind of voting pool for stuff to put on the front page to more of a place in its own right where most things that get submitted weren't necessarily front page material so much as just, well, projects in their own right worth sharing on Projects.
My immediate reaction to the idea of removing votes is kinda "noooooo!" because I think of the vote widget as part of the identity of Projects, the weird little thing that makes it feel in terms of page layout like that's what place it is. But that's not the strongest argument in the world, and I'm sympathetic to the idea that (especially with comments letting people interact substantially with Projects posts) there's nothing super MeFi-like about having a supplemental vote widget that we don't use for anything, just to show that some things get more votes than other things.
So, like I said, I'm happy to hear thoughts. It's something we haven't seriously revisited any time recently and it'd be good to hear what folks think on various fronts about this. How do Projects posters feel about it? Projects readers? Does anybody have specific positive interactions with or feelings about the vote widget?
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:26 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
For historical context, votes were something Matt included when he launched Projects back in late 2005 as a way to make up for the intentional lack, at the time, of comments on Projects posts. "Okay, but what if we had comments though?" followed soon after; we added them a few years later.
Matt talks a bit in that last link about how his view of Projects changed over those first few years, from being a kind of voting pool for stuff to put on the front page to more of a place in its own right where most things that get submitted weren't necessarily front page material so much as just, well, projects in their own right worth sharing on Projects.
My immediate reaction to the idea of removing votes is kinda "noooooo!" because I think of the vote widget as part of the identity of Projects, the weird little thing that makes it feel in terms of page layout like that's what place it is. But that's not the strongest argument in the world, and I'm sympathetic to the idea that (especially with comments letting people interact substantially with Projects posts) there's nothing super MeFi-like about having a supplemental vote widget that we don't use for anything, just to show that some things get more votes than other things.
So, like I said, I'm happy to hear thoughts. It's something we haven't seriously revisited any time recently and it'd be good to hear what folks think on various fronts about this. How do Projects posters feel about it? Projects readers? Does anybody have specific positive interactions with or feelings about the vote widget?
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:26 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
(And for a bit of earlier history, Projects itself grew out of a really nice unofficial volunteer effort by rad long-timer Jerry "kindall" Kindall wherein he organized and distributed for a while a monthly-ish email digest of projects mefites had told him they were working on. At some point, that led to folks basically saying, hey, Matt, what if this were like a thing thing, et voila.)
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:30 AM on January 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:30 AM on January 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
I still find votes as a good indicator as to whether people think a project would make a good fit for the blue, assuming people are using votes that way (and I think they are). If I'm scanning for something to post I scan the votes box to see if there are any highly-voted projects that haven't been posted yet; in a way it pre-vets a project for me, then I can take my time reading one or two 'candidates' for posting.
Favorites strike me more as a bookmark, with a more neutral meaning, than a vote.
So, yeah - useful.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 8:35 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Favorites strike me more as a bookmark, with a more neutral meaning, than a vote.
So, yeah - useful.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 8:35 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
The problem I have with "votes as an indicator for something being a good fit for the Blue" is that, because of the relatively low traffic on Projects, users with a lot of people following them end up with way more votes because the projects post will turn up in people's contact activity.
And I say this as a person whose projects are largely voted on by people who list me as a contact, and as such am 100% part of the problem here.
I mean, I'm pretty neutral on the issue of whether or not to keep them, but I do see them as functionally useless.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 8:41 AM on January 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
And I say this as a person whose projects are largely voted on by people who list me as a contact, and as such am 100% part of the problem here.
I mean, I'm pretty neutral on the issue of whether or not to keep them, but I do see them as functionally useless.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 8:41 AM on January 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
I have never had any idea what the votes are for, either when looking at other people's projects or posting my own projects. They're some kind of endorsement obviously, but so maybe is favorites, so ???
posted by aubilenon at 8:42 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 8:42 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
(That said, they don't bother me, and I don't really care either way about keeping them / axing them)
posted by aubilenon at 8:43 AM on January 13, 2016
posted by aubilenon at 8:43 AM on January 13, 2016
Also if you are like me, digging through the early days of Projects discussion in the MetaTalk archives is super interesting. It's been over ten years since it got launched, which is super weird because how does time even etc., but a thing I had forgotten: there was originally no Projects queue. You could just stick things on there! Which is both (a) not crazy because that's how the rest of the site worked but also (b) super duper crazy because between spam and just the occasional really poor judgement that's a mess waiting to happen.
And here's a thread from 2006 discussing the merits of votes; another where Matt announced creator-facing, non-public comments; a stumble through confusing grey areas in self-linking; and soul-searching about the nature of spam. And there's a ton more if you want to go digging.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:50 AM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
And here's a thread from 2006 discussing the merits of votes; another where Matt announced creator-facing, non-public comments; a stumble through confusing grey areas in self-linking; and soul-searching about the nature of spam. And there's a ton more if you want to go digging.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:50 AM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
I’d be fine with killing the votes. However, I do really like the fact that they are BIG, which makes me feel like I should be voting. So if there was some way to keep things big but also get rid of the votes, that’d be cool.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:15 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 9:15 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
I had no idea that that's what a vote meant! I figured they were just Big Favorites!
I like them, mostly as a visual thing, but I can see how a low vote count can make someone feel bad.
posted by ignignokt at 9:17 AM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
I like them, mostly as a visual thing, but I can see how a low vote count can make someone feel bad.
posted by ignignokt at 9:17 AM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
I really like the 'voting' functionality, probably for the exact same reason cortex states in his first sentence. But I guess if I follow Narrative Priorities logic, I too find them 'functionally useless' when it comes to determining what to read, but that's just because Projects is the only area of the site these days where I definitely check everything out eventually.
But I do love the spirit of "voting" for it and I like that the number is displayed. But I've realized lately that I'm apparently "tired of things I like changing" years old, so this all might be coming from that impulse.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:18 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I do love the spirit of "voting" for it and I like that the number is displayed. But I've realized lately that I'm apparently "tired of things I like changing" years old, so this all might be coming from that impulse.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:18 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm not a huge user of Projects, but I think votes are indeed functionally useless and pretty not-MeFi.
The problem I have with "votes as an indicator for something being a good fit for the Blue" is that, because of the relatively low traffic on Projects, users with a lot of people following them end up with way more votes because the projects post will turn up in people's contact activity.
An analogous problem makes votes useless on Quora.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:26 AM on January 13, 2016
The problem I have with "votes as an indicator for something being a good fit for the Blue" is that, because of the relatively low traffic on Projects, users with a lot of people following them end up with way more votes because the projects post will turn up in people's contact activity.
An analogous problem makes votes useless on Quora.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:26 AM on January 13, 2016
I like them visually, too. Maybe we could unify them with Favorites into a single number - right now there doesn't seem to be much of a semantic difference.
posted by wanderingmind at 9:26 AM on January 13, 2016
posted by wanderingmind at 9:26 AM on January 13, 2016
Just to be contrary, how about we add voting to the rest of MetaFilter?
That's your cue, quidnunc kid...
posted by Rock Steady at 9:28 AM on January 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
That's your cue, quidnunc kid...
posted by Rock Steady at 9:28 AM on January 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
I use the voting as a sort of "I think this is cool/good job!" indicator to the project owner/creator, where I use favorites for things I want to be able to find again. So, for me, I'd be less likely to add something to favorites if that were my only option. But, maybe I'd be more likely to leave a comment with my "cool/good job" comment if that were the case... I agree that the "voting" wording and outsize presentation has the effect of making me feel bad for people with few or no votes--no one liked their thing! I would be so sad if no one liked my thing! :(
While we are on the subject of Projects, would it be possible (or would others find it useful) to make the titles operate the way they do elsewhere on the site--that is, bring up the project details page rather than directly to the external project page? I often find myself clicking on the title expecting the former (the way the UI works on the rest of the site) only to have to back up and find the "more inside" link (or "post a comment" if there wasn't any more text).
posted by msbubbaclees at 9:57 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
While we are on the subject of Projects, would it be possible (or would others find it useful) to make the titles operate the way they do elsewhere on the site--that is, bring up the project details page rather than directly to the external project page? I often find myself clicking on the title expecting the former (the way the UI works on the rest of the site) only to have to back up and find the "more inside" link (or "post a comment" if there wasn't any more text).
posted by msbubbaclees at 9:57 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think in the case of Projects, the primacy of the link-to-the-external-thing basically trumps that otherwise reasonable point; that is, maybe there's something to think about it in tweaking the layout of the posts, but making it so that it's less easy to get right to the thing being posted about would need to not be part of that calculus.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:09 AM on January 13, 2016
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:09 AM on January 13, 2016
I also think there's a fun-factor to voting, as a user; and as someone whose listed projects, it also provides more of a competitive element that makes the stakes to posting a project every so slightly higher, which is a good thing.
Also, if you're posting a project and you don't receive many votes (or as many as you think you would) this can be valuable feedback: I must polish up my project, people aren't very impressed by it.
Lastly, voting gives people a very easy 'one click' way of providing feedback; that is, the barrier to providing feedback is lower as opposed to composing a comment.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 10:35 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, if you're posting a project and you don't receive many votes (or as many as you think you would) this can be valuable feedback: I must polish up my project, people aren't very impressed by it.
Lastly, voting gives people a very easy 'one click' way of providing feedback; that is, the barrier to providing feedback is lower as opposed to composing a comment.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 10:35 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
like fuzzy dice in a sports car
you just made my morning with that analogy
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 10:40 AM on January 13, 2016
you just made my morning with that analogy
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 10:40 AM on January 13, 2016
Also, if you're posting a project and you don't receive many votes (or as many as you think you would) this can be valuable feedback: I must polish up my project, people aren't very impressed by it.
This is one of the things that makes me agree more with the "let's ditch 'em" premise of the post, actually. Vote distribution is a weirdly uneven thing, where like favorites there's no question that there's a general positive correlation between lots of positive feedback and something being good but no really meaningful consistency to minimal positive feedback indicating lack of quality. And with favorites that's not as much of a big deal because not-being-favorited isn't a terribly visible thing; with a high-profile vote widget it's a lot more visible.
That is, lots of very nice Projects posts don't get much in the way of votes, and not because they're poor but because they...don't end up getting many votes. Some folks tweet about their stuff, some don't; some projects have broad appeal, some are niche; some broadcast a kind of Hey Come Check This Out vibe, some are more understated. All of that is independent of whether someone made something neat and made it well, so associating vote counts with the idea of quality or sufficient polish isn't a great outcome, as far as serving the MetaFilter ethos goes.
All else aside, I don't want Projects to be a competition; I like votes to the extent that I like them despite that aspect, not because of it.
The instant feedback thing I totally hear you on, though, and when I'm approving the posts in the first place it's nice to be able to give a little sort of high-five if it's something that particularly tickles my fancy.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:45 AM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is one of the things that makes me agree more with the "let's ditch 'em" premise of the post, actually. Vote distribution is a weirdly uneven thing, where like favorites there's no question that there's a general positive correlation between lots of positive feedback and something being good but no really meaningful consistency to minimal positive feedback indicating lack of quality. And with favorites that's not as much of a big deal because not-being-favorited isn't a terribly visible thing; with a high-profile vote widget it's a lot more visible.
That is, lots of very nice Projects posts don't get much in the way of votes, and not because they're poor but because they...don't end up getting many votes. Some folks tweet about their stuff, some don't; some projects have broad appeal, some are niche; some broadcast a kind of Hey Come Check This Out vibe, some are more understated. All of that is independent of whether someone made something neat and made it well, so associating vote counts with the idea of quality or sufficient polish isn't a great outcome, as far as serving the MetaFilter ethos goes.
All else aside, I don't want Projects to be a competition; I like votes to the extent that I like them despite that aspect, not because of it.
The instant feedback thing I totally hear you on, though, and when I'm approving the posts in the first place it's nice to be able to give a little sort of high-five if it's something that particularly tickles my fancy.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:45 AM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
(By point of comparison: at one point we added, after multiple requests, a count of track plays to Music. It was a thing several people liked the idea of. In practice, it added just about nothing to the site and created an unneeded sort of what's-getting-listened-to-less vibe that wasn't any fun. When a change in music players broke the existing functionality, we made the decision to remove it instead of hacking in a workaround fix. I don't regret that decision a bit, looking back.)
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:58 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:58 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I take voting much more seriously than favorites. Like others I haven't used the votes as a way to push things through to the blue- I always use it as a hey, I like your project! or as an expression of support or hey, I recognize you put a lot of hard work into this even if it's not my niche kind of thing. I like voting as an expression of "You took your project seriously, and worked hard, and placed it hard for us to see, so I'm going to take it seriously, too." But maybe that's just me.
This is also one place where I definitely use favorites for bookmarking, either to find it again or, mostly, to remember to read it; then I unfav, because I have. I don't like unfaving in other areas of the site, but I don't mind doing that if I vote for a project.
And if one has favorites turned off like I do, it's the one place where I do like seeing the number expressed because it alerts me to a cool project that I might have missed because the topic didn't rock my boat at first glance or whatever. I've clicked on more than a few projects because I see a lot (like, 3+) votes for it. But! That's another reason I take voting for projects more seriously than I would throwing out a favorite in other areas of the site. Again, I recognize not everybody works that way.
So: just one data point, as a user I'd miss voting. OTOH, sometimes I feel really bad for members that have this large visual reminder there's no or few votes, which isn't a reflection on the project itself necessarily but has just happened that way. So if it got taken away that'd be fine - this particular datum would adjust for that reason alone.
posted by barchan at 11:16 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is also one place where I definitely use favorites for bookmarking, either to find it again or, mostly, to remember to read it; then I unfav, because I have. I don't like unfaving in other areas of the site, but I don't mind doing that if I vote for a project.
And if one has favorites turned off like I do, it's the one place where I do like seeing the number expressed because it alerts me to a cool project that I might have missed because the topic didn't rock my boat at first glance or whatever. I've clicked on more than a few projects because I see a lot (like, 3+) votes for it. But! That's another reason I take voting for projects more seriously than I would throwing out a favorite in other areas of the site. Again, I recognize not everybody works that way.
So: just one data point, as a user I'd miss voting. OTOH, sometimes I feel really bad for members that have this large visual reminder there's no or few votes, which isn't a reflection on the project itself necessarily but has just happened that way. So if it got taken away that'd be fine - this particular datum would adjust for that reason alone.
posted by barchan at 11:16 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
You really could use a web font to display the vote digits as fuzzy dice, though. Just saying.
Maybe for April Fools' Day, show all numbers on the site as dice?
posted by Rangi at 11:18 AM on January 13, 2016
Maybe for April Fools' Day, show all numbers on the site as dice?
posted by Rangi at 11:18 AM on January 13, 2016
cortex: "All else aside, I don't want Projects to be a competition; I like votes to the extent that I like them despite that aspect, not because of it. "
This is getting maybe needlessly complicated, but what if vote totals were hidden until they reached 8 or 10 or some high-ish number? That way you don't have a big fat zero staring you in the face, but you would still be able to highlight the most popular projects.
posted by Rock Steady at 11:21 AM on January 13, 2016
This is getting maybe needlessly complicated, but what if vote totals were hidden until they reached 8 or 10 or some high-ish number? That way you don't have a big fat zero staring you in the face, but you would still be able to highlight the most popular projects.
posted by Rock Steady at 11:21 AM on January 13, 2016
No where else on the site are things voted on and the votes don't really seem to mean anything, while giving the illusion that they mean something, so yes, kill them.
This line of thought could be related to having recently posted to Projects and seeing it only get 7 votes on a website that thousands of people look at. Which is fine, but...OK IT'S REALLY NOT FINE, THERE I SAID IT.
I make no claim that this feeling is rational in any way, shape or form.
Yes, I know I switched from line of thought to feeling. It's a bug in the programming.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:28 AM on January 13, 2016
This line of thought could be related to having recently posted to Projects and seeing it only get 7 votes on a website that thousands of people look at. Which is fine, but...OK IT'S REALLY NOT FINE, THERE I SAID IT.
I make no claim that this feeling is rational in any way, shape or form.
Yes, I know I switched from line of thought to feeling. It's a bug in the programming.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:28 AM on January 13, 2016
Well, I admit that this idea is self-serving — as well as potentially counter to the ethos of MetaFilter. And I get what cortex says about some projects just getting more or fewer votes for no particularly good reason or because of social connections or whatever.
That said, I have found votes useful in gauging the relative appeal of my various projects. I mean, they're all appealing to me because I did them. But the votes have been some small way of judging the projects' appeal to others. Mostly I measure the vote totals of one of my projects against other projects of mine, so I don't think that's super harmful to the site.
I have never viewed it as a competition. But of course I look at other projects and see how many votes they get too. I really don't feel bad about other things getting more votes. I mean, it's not like I can monetize the votes I get or convert them into units of glory.
So, this is one vote for votes being somewhat useful, yeah. And maybe that's also because there hasn't seemed to be as much commenting activity on Projects? But perhaps this is all because votes exist in the first place.
posted by veggieboy at 12:16 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
That said, I have found votes useful in gauging the relative appeal of my various projects. I mean, they're all appealing to me because I did them. But the votes have been some small way of judging the projects' appeal to others. Mostly I measure the vote totals of one of my projects against other projects of mine, so I don't think that's super harmful to the site.
I have never viewed it as a competition. But of course I look at other projects and see how many votes they get too. I really don't feel bad about other things getting more votes. I mean, it's not like I can monetize the votes I get or convert them into units of glory.
So, this is one vote for votes being somewhat useful, yeah. And maybe that's also because there hasn't seemed to be as much commenting activity on Projects? But perhaps this is all because votes exist in the first place.
posted by veggieboy at 12:16 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Agree that favorites are enough and that voting should be removed. Personally, I've used them as a super favorite or public endorsement or particularly cool projects.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:22 PM on January 13, 2016
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:22 PM on January 13, 2016
So, one way to allow people to still click on something big (which feels good) but without making people feel bad about vote totals is to display the total as a short random compliment. For every new project, you generate a list of random compliments for each vote total, many of which are common to many levels. e.g.:
Each time the page is visited, a compliment from the list for that vote total is displayed. However, the seed for the randomizer is the day (e.g. 2016-01-13), so you get the same compliment for each time you load the page in a day, and there's no need to keep reloading.
The next day, though, the vote total is recounted, and there's a new seed, so you'll probably get a different compliment. Is it a different compliment because you got more votes? Maybe and maybe not! But it'd be kinda nice to see, I bet!
(OK, I'm not serious about asking this to be implemented, in case my flippant tone is coming across. I do seriously think it could be nice, though!)
posted by ignignokt at 12:23 PM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
1: ['Nice', 'Sweet', 'Ballin\'', 'Yes'],
2: ['So good', 'Nice', 'Yes', 'YIS'],
3: ['Amaze', 'So good', 'Ballin\''],
etc.Each time the page is visited, a compliment from the list for that vote total is displayed. However, the seed for the randomizer is the day (e.g. 2016-01-13), so you get the same compliment for each time you load the page in a day, and there's no need to keep reloading.
The next day, though, the vote total is recounted, and there's a new seed, so you'll probably get a different compliment. Is it a different compliment because you got more votes? Maybe and maybe not! But it'd be kinda nice to see, I bet!
(OK, I'm not serious about asking this to be implemented, in case my flippant tone is coming across. I do seriously think it could be nice, though!)
posted by ignignokt at 12:23 PM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
To feed the snake its tail, a greasemonkey script that modified a user's view of the Projects page according to that rubric would make a totally reasonable Projects post, if you don't get around to building any new bots this month.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:26 PM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:26 PM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
I vote for keeping them.
I have no great reason other than to me, they just work for that part of the site. I don't know that they are hurting anything by being there. According to my profile, I have given out 17 votes. I can tell you I peruse the site several times a week, and have found 17 items I "voted for" which to me means I really liked the project. It does not mean I did not like the other projects. Most were really interesting, but just were not my cup of tea.
Take them (Voting buttons) away and I will not like the projects any less, I just won't be able let them know through a vote. I will have to make an effort and actually comment or favorite. What does a favorite mean again?
Oh, I would vote for ignignokt's project if it is posted to Projects. Especially if one of the random comments was 'Primo'.
posted by AugustWest at 12:32 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have no great reason other than to me, they just work for that part of the site. I don't know that they are hurting anything by being there. According to my profile, I have given out 17 votes. I can tell you I peruse the site several times a week, and have found 17 items I "voted for" which to me means I really liked the project. It does not mean I did not like the other projects. Most were really interesting, but just were not my cup of tea.
Take them (Voting buttons) away and I will not like the projects any less, I just won't be able let them know through a vote. I will have to make an effort and actually comment or favorite. What does a favorite mean again?
Oh, I would vote for ignignokt's project if it is posted to Projects. Especially if one of the random comments was 'Primo'.
posted by AugustWest at 12:32 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hey, thanks for the vote! But I'm not sure a vote for PB is a vote for votes. I don't have a vote on this one.
posted by pb (staff) at 1:30 PM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by pb (staff) at 1:30 PM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Projects should be posted to The Blue if they are worthy regardless of whether they have received many votes or no votes. Votes would be important if there was a threshold where a project receiving X number of votes are automatically posted to The Blue, but that is not the case.
I have seen many projects gets tons of votes and yet not be posted to The Blue, and I have seen plenty of low-vote projects being posted.
I'm with overeducated-alligator on this.
posted by terrapin at 1:56 PM on January 13, 2016
I have seen many projects gets tons of votes and yet not be posted to The Blue, and I have seen plenty of low-vote projects being posted.
I'm with overeducated-alligator on this.
posted by terrapin at 1:56 PM on January 13, 2016
Put me in as another vote for "I don't care about votes and have no preference for whether they go or stay."
I like the fuzzy dice analogy.
posted by Wretch729 at 2:07 PM on January 13, 2016
I like the fuzzy dice analogy.
posted by Wretch729 at 2:07 PM on January 13, 2016
I don't have an opinion about votes, but I do think I would be more likely to vote if it had the potential to prompt a different amusing-and-positive randomized comment. Such as "better than Cats!"
posted by asperity at 2:21 PM on January 13, 2016
posted by asperity at 2:21 PM on January 13, 2016
Yeah, but even a spammer's used sock resale site with zero votes is better than Cats.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:29 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:29 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Huh, kindall joined the day after I did.
On-topic: I've never cared about Projects at all.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 3:07 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
On-topic: I've never cared about Projects at all.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 3:07 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've only ever known Projects votes as votes for someone to repost a project to the Blue. I tend to think they worked well in that capacity (it's a good way for me as a potential project-reposter to gauge the community's reception to a potential FPP; I've posted at least one FPP from Projects because of the votes it received), but it's the only way that they make sense to me as part of MeFi. I think that if votes are used as an upvote or a Like button, they are bad for MeFi's culture.
posted by capricorn at 3:18 PM on January 13, 2016
posted by capricorn at 3:18 PM on January 13, 2016
I've posted a fair few projects to Projects because I like doing projects, even silly ephemeral ones, and then showing them to people. I've voted for not-all-that-many because I generally kind of forget that Projects exists until I have a project to post, and then I vote up everything on the front page that I think is cool, somewhat guiltily.
I've never actually thought of a 'vote' as a manifestation of my desire to see something promoted to the blue, either in terms of receiving or giving votes, more as a 'nice job, well done' pat on the back kinda mechanism.
I think that's a perfectly fine function for voting. It suits the function as I see it, which is as a place for MeFites to show other people the stuff they've made that they're proud of, and get some feedback and maybe a few pats on the back for a bit of affirmation.
I think that if votes are used as an upvote or a Like button, they are bad for MeFi's culture.
Back before, and shortly after, the introduction of favorites (and through the interminable discussions of what they 'mean' and if they should have been called something different), I would have agreed. But these days, I think it is deeply baked in to the site culture for people to post things (threads or comments or whatever) in order to accumulate the equivalent of 'likes' or 'thanks' or 'upvotes' or whatever. People do use favorites as bookmarks certainly, exclusively, or like me just occasionally, but I would argue the primary function of them these days tends to be exactly the same as a vote on Projects.
Not that I want to open up an argument about favorites -- they're here, they're dear, we're used to it -- and I admit that the connotative distinction between favorites and upvotes on Projects is a blurry one. But I think they're fine, it's all fine.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:37 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've never actually thought of a 'vote' as a manifestation of my desire to see something promoted to the blue, either in terms of receiving or giving votes, more as a 'nice job, well done' pat on the back kinda mechanism.
I think that's a perfectly fine function for voting. It suits the function as I see it, which is as a place for MeFites to show other people the stuff they've made that they're proud of, and get some feedback and maybe a few pats on the back for a bit of affirmation.
I think that if votes are used as an upvote or a Like button, they are bad for MeFi's culture.
Back before, and shortly after, the introduction of favorites (and through the interminable discussions of what they 'mean' and if they should have been called something different), I would have agreed. But these days, I think it is deeply baked in to the site culture for people to post things (threads or comments or whatever) in order to accumulate the equivalent of 'likes' or 'thanks' or 'upvotes' or whatever. People do use favorites as bookmarks certainly, exclusively, or like me just occasionally, but I would argue the primary function of them these days tends to be exactly the same as a vote on Projects.
Not that I want to open up an argument about favorites -- they're here, they're dear, we're used to it -- and I admit that the connotative distinction between favorites and upvotes on Projects is a blurry one. But I think they're fine, it's all fine.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:37 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
like fuzzy dice in a sports car.
So absolutely essential to the experience in your opinion?
posted by bongo_x at 4:44 PM on January 13, 2016
So absolutely essential to the experience in your opinion?
posted by bongo_x at 4:44 PM on January 13, 2016
I like the votes in Projects. It ain't broke.
posted by grouse at 5:20 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by grouse at 5:20 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
If it is not necessary to change, it is necessary to not change.
posted by Bruce H. at 5:21 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Bruce H. at 5:21 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Add me to the list of people voting to keep votes. I don't view them competitively at all. Instead, they're indicators to me that somebody liked my project, which really gratifies my ego. They're kind of like Facebook Likes in that way.
(I suppose you could rename them to "Likes" because nobody ever objects when a website does that.)
posted by suetanvil at 7:30 PM on January 13, 2016
(I suppose you could rename them to "Likes" because nobody ever objects when a website does that.)
posted by suetanvil at 7:30 PM on January 13, 2016
If votes go by the wayside, will the old ones disappear? I posted a project once and one of my voters is now deceased--I don't want that vote to be erased.
posted by leesh at 7:58 PM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by leesh at 7:58 PM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
stavrosthewonderchicken: "People do use favorites as bookmarks certainly, exclusively, or like me just occasionally, but I would argue the primary function of them these days tends to be exactly the same as a vote on Projects."
True, but Projects allows you to both favorite and vote for a project. There is at least one person in this thread saying that in the context of favorites existing, they are using votes as a more ephemeral "thumbs up" gesture whereas favorites are a bookmark.
posted by capricorn at 8:19 PM on January 13, 2016
True, but Projects allows you to both favorite and vote for a project. There is at least one person in this thread saying that in the context of favorites existing, they are using votes as a more ephemeral "thumbs up" gesture whereas favorites are a bookmark.
posted by capricorn at 8:19 PM on January 13, 2016
Sure, and that's all to the good (from my perspective at least), and a reason I reckon nothing's broken and all is well.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:37 PM on January 13, 2016
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:37 PM on January 13, 2016
Like some others have said, I've always been puzzled by what a vote means. I mean, I guess it's not hurting anything, but it is different from the other subsites without an obvious reason to be.
I think we should keep votes but then deny they're even there when people ask about it, just to confuse newbies.
posted by ctmf at 9:27 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think we should keep votes but then deny they're even there when people ask about it, just to confuse newbies.
posted by ctmf at 9:27 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I vote for Votes.
They make Projects special, and when I Vote for a project, I feel like I'm giving its creator an extra bit of encouragement to keep at it. Which as we all know is hard.
If we want to make Votes "matter," maybe let's think about connecting them with rewards, like maybe callouts. Or sidebar mentions.
Or cash.
posted by notyou at 9:54 PM on January 13, 2016
They make Projects special, and when I Vote for a project, I feel like I'm giving its creator an extra bit of encouragement to keep at it. Which as we all know is hard.
If we want to make Votes "matter," maybe let's think about connecting them with rewards, like maybe callouts. Or sidebar mentions.
Or cash.
posted by notyou at 9:54 PM on January 13, 2016
Speaking of voting, can I give a shoutout to this Project? And, how do you pronounce Twicery?
Maybe like some of the annual posts about terrific comments that were maybe overlooked, we have an annual meta where instead of voting we give a shoutout to projects we thought worthy of a vote or something.
posted by AugustWest at 10:16 PM on January 13, 2016
Maybe like some of the annual posts about terrific comments that were maybe overlooked, we have an annual meta where instead of voting we give a shoutout to projects we thought worthy of a vote or something.
posted by AugustWest at 10:16 PM on January 13, 2016
I'm a frequent Projects lurker and am not a fan of the votes. As others have said they're functionally useless and I feel bad whenever I see that someone doesn't have any/many votes. It just seems anti to the whole site ethos - people put themselves out there to share this thing they've worked on and then, in some cases, crickets. The voting function seems unnecessary and needlessly demoralizing. (Although on the flip side, if a project *does* get votes then "Woo!" But then couldn't "favorites" signal the same appreciation?)
posted by hapax_legomenon at 10:53 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by hapax_legomenon at 10:53 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I actually quite like the votes but this is more because they provide Projects with an identity I can mentally set apart from the rest of the site. I don't think they're actually very useful.
I want to keep the votes only because of crouton-petter thoughts - I feel like Projects would feel lost without a distinguishing feature. But this could easily be something more useful.
posted by solarion at 12:18 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I want to keep the votes only because of crouton-petter thoughts - I feel like Projects would feel lost without a distinguishing feature. But this could easily be something more useful.
posted by solarion at 12:18 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I see them as an explicit "Hey this is cool! Good job!", and while I use favourites for that elsewhere, I'm aware that sometimes favourites are just bookmarks. So it's nice, in Projects, to have something which is an explicit thumbs-up.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:56 AM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:56 AM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
I post in projects now and then, and enjoy receiving votes, and I vote for projects now and then, and I still have no idea what votes mean. If I like a project, I'll spend a minute or two wondering whether to give it a favorite, or a vote, or both, and if it's rude to do one or the other. And then I usually push the vote button because it's bigger. I'd vote for no votes, and for reminding myself to write "hey! good job" in the comments more often.
posted by moonmilk at 5:54 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by moonmilk at 5:54 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
So it's nice, in Projects, to have something which is an explicit thumbs-up.
Wait, hang on, what if we replace "Vote for this" with a thumbs-up emoji?
Or a star?
Or a heart?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 6:00 AM on January 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wait, hang on, what if we replace "Vote for this" with a thumbs-up emoji?
Or a star?
Or a heart?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 6:00 AM on January 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
So on the rare day that I reach the end of the internet, am dissatisfied by what's on the blue and green, don't feel fighty enough for the grey, am not looking for work or to meet any hoopy people, nor am I interested in rehashing a TV show that aired a week ago but I've only just gotten round to watching, I go to projects.
I view projects as M&Ms. I had a friend that used to get a package of M&Ms, take two M&Ms and smash them into eachother until one of the two reached critical structural failure and then eat the one that failed. Repeat until the bag is empty save for the one surviving M&M. Then he would put it in a baggie in an envelope and mail it to Mars, Inc. with the note "Please use this M&M for breeding purposes." He repeated the process whenever he had M&Ms, which was like every few weeks or so. My point is, I only go to projects occasionally, only upvote one project that I like and expect the other projects and their creators to be eaten by someone craving a sugar rush in a fashion similar to gladiatorial combat.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:06 AM on January 14, 2016 [10 favorites]
I view projects as M&Ms. I had a friend that used to get a package of M&Ms, take two M&Ms and smash them into eachother until one of the two reached critical structural failure and then eat the one that failed. Repeat until the bag is empty save for the one surviving M&M. Then he would put it in a baggie in an envelope and mail it to Mars, Inc. with the note "Please use this M&M for breeding purposes." He repeated the process whenever he had M&Ms, which was like every few weeks or so. My point is, I only go to projects occasionally, only upvote one project that I like and expect the other projects and their creators to be eaten by someone craving a sugar rush in a fashion similar to gladiatorial combat.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:06 AM on January 14, 2016 [10 favorites]
Not this week, man. First Bowie, then I discover my password at work expires in 7 days. Now this. I cannot deal with any more pointless changes this week.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 6:45 AM on January 14, 2016
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 6:45 AM on January 14, 2016
Totally disagree with the entire concept of this thread, which will inevitably lead to the destruction of our society. To put the issue into a nuts hell - we can't logically deicide weather to have "voting" by VOTING on that tissue, because:
(a) Those people who have voted AGAINST voting are congitive dissidents, whose inconsistency disproves their own premises; and
(2) Contraversly, those who vote FOR voting are bedding the question, assuming their own conclusions through circlular seasoning.
In other words, this MeTa post is a lairs paradox, where everything is a truth "if and only if" it is a false - and this iffyness threatens to explode the consistency of our whole universe of discords.
We therefore need to salve this paradox of metavoting, and the only way to restore paraconsistency is by axiomatising our current rules with a VERY large ax. And the person who can draw this ax from the stone of AxMetaFilter will then be our rightful Monarch, through whom all authority can be flounded.
In that cortext, let's acknowledge that only quidnunc kid is axing the right questions of the right stoners. As such, doesn't it make sense for quidnunc to be king, and for you all to acknowledge him as your liege lord of lice and limp? So make our democracy grate again by becoming a devoted #1 of quidnunc king!
posted by the quidnunc kid at 6:59 AM on January 14, 2016 [25 favorites]
(a) Those people who have voted AGAINST voting are congitive dissidents, whose inconsistency disproves their own premises; and
(2) Contraversly, those who vote FOR voting are bedding the question, assuming their own conclusions through circlular seasoning.
In other words, this MeTa post is a lairs paradox, where everything is a truth "if and only if" it is a false - and this iffyness threatens to explode the consistency of our whole universe of discords.
We therefore need to salve this paradox of metavoting, and the only way to restore paraconsistency is by axiomatising our current rules with a VERY large ax. And the person who can draw this ax from the stone of AxMetaFilter will then be our rightful Monarch, through whom all authority can be flounded.
In that cortext, let's acknowledge that only quidnunc kid is axing the right questions of the right stoners. As such, doesn't it make sense for quidnunc to be king, and for you all to acknowledge him as your liege lord of lice and limp? So make our democracy grate again by becoming a devoted #1 of quidnunc king!
posted by the quidnunc kid at 6:59 AM on January 14, 2016 [25 favorites]
I like getting votes and I like voting.
Sometimes I feel like there are only a handful of people who hang out in projects and I see many of the same people voting. I like adding my name to the list.
A favorite can pretty much be whatever the person wants, but a vote is a nod that says, "I like this."
posted by cjorgensen at 9:01 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sometimes I feel like there are only a handful of people who hang out in projects and I see many of the same people voting. I like adding my name to the list.
A favorite can pretty much be whatever the person wants, but a vote is a nod that says, "I like this."
posted by cjorgensen at 9:01 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
A favorite can pretty much be whatever the person wants, but a vote is a nod that says, "I like this."
I thought we were voting for which projects got kicked off the page until hopefully your project is the last one remaining.
posted by aubilenon at 9:58 AM on January 14, 2016
I thought we were voting for which projects got kicked off the page until hopefully your project is the last one remaining.
posted by aubilenon at 9:58 AM on January 14, 2016
the quidnunc kid: "In other words, this MeTa post is a lairs paradox, where everything is a truth "if and only if" it is a false - and this iffyness threatens to explode the consistency of our whole universe of discords."
I see a way around it. We simply ask people to answer YES or NO to the question: "Are you in favor of me asking you which way you were planning to vote, if we were voting, which we are not?"
posted by Rock Steady at 10:14 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I see a way around it. We simply ask people to answer YES or NO to the question: "Are you in favor of me asking you which way you were planning to vote, if we were voting, which we are not?"
posted by Rock Steady at 10:14 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I like voting on Projects. I'd prefer that we get rid of favorites, though I know that's been well discussed already and thus only an antimatter pony of dreams.
posted by exogenous at 11:55 AM on January 14, 2016
posted by exogenous at 11:55 AM on January 14, 2016
I view projects as M&Ms. I had a friend that used to get a package of M&Ms, take two M&Ms and smash them into eachother until one of the two reached critical structural failure and then eat the one that failed. Repeat until the bag is empty save for the one surviving M&M. Then he would put it in a baggie in an envelope and mail it to Mars, Inc. with the note "Please use this M&M for breeding purposes." He repeated the process whenever he had M&Ms, which was like every few weeks or so. !
If you are the type who likes to call out friends for stealing stories from the internet, you can call your friend out on that one.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:25 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you are the type who likes to call out friends for stealing stories from the internet, you can call your friend out on that one.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:25 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I’d prefer a 10 star rating system for every comment or post. 5 will not do.
posted by bongo_x at 2:50 PM on January 14, 2016
posted by bongo_x at 2:50 PM on January 14, 2016
I want a 12 star rating because 12 has more divisors than 10 and I think we made a big mistake when we went away from the Babylonian system on this one.
posted by solarion at 2:58 PM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by solarion at 2:58 PM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
The great thing about always voting 1#, the multi-verse is satisfied with the inevitable outcome.
posted by clavdivs at 5:22 PM on January 14, 2016
posted by clavdivs at 5:22 PM on January 14, 2016
The great thing about always voting 1#- the 1# multi-verse is satisfied with the inevitable outcome.
posted by clavdivs at 5:24 PM on January 14, 2016
posted by clavdivs at 5:24 PM on January 14, 2016
I didn't realize votes were meant to indicate "post to Blue"; if anything, I thought it might mean "make the mods aware of this so they may promote it".
I vote to remove them, because they're more noise than signal.
posted by divabat at 8:33 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I vote to remove them, because they're more noise than signal.
posted by divabat at 8:33 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Okay, but what if we had comments though?"
As an aside (and I understand why this would almost certainly be a terrible idea), sometimes I'm sad that there aren't comments on Jobs posts. Some the listings seems like there's an interesting discussion to be had.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 1:00 PM on January 15, 2016
As an aside (and I understand why this would almost certainly be a terrible idea), sometimes I'm sad that there aren't comments on Jobs posts. Some the listings seems like there's an interesting discussion to be had.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 1:00 PM on January 15, 2016
I think the corollary to lots of votes making someone feel good about a project is that people without a lot feel bad. Since there isn't a clear reason why they are here still I think it would be better to get rid of them. If you think a project is so great that it deserves to be on the blue than you can post it there. You would still be able to comment on a great project or favorite it.
posted by Margalo Epps at 3:14 PM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Margalo Epps at 3:14 PM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's always been part of my objection to favorites.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:13 PM on January 15, 2016
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:13 PM on January 15, 2016
I always thought if enough people voted the project got posted. If the vote feature doesn't do anything, I'd say get rid of it
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:16 PM on January 15, 2016
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:16 PM on January 15, 2016
It does do something. I skim the front page of Projects, and I use large numbers of votes to find things others have found interesting.
I really wish we had less of "I don't personally use this feature therefore we should get rid of it."
posted by grouse at 8:53 AM on January 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I really wish we had less of "I don't personally use this feature therefore we should get rid of it."
posted by grouse at 8:53 AM on January 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
It also is a nod from people that says, "I like this." More warm fuzzies I say.
I think the corollary to lots of votes making someone feel good about a project is that people without a lot feel bad.
Not everyone deserves a trophy, not every project is worth a vote.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:16 AM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think the corollary to lots of votes making someone feel good about a project is that people without a lot feel bad.
Not everyone deserves a trophy, not every project is worth a vote.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:16 AM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I like voting. My votes translate as "you're awesome for putting work out into the world!"
posted by roger ackroyd at 10:22 AM on January 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roger ackroyd at 10:22 AM on January 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm kind of late to this thread, but...
I don't check out projects frequently enough to have a super strong opinion on this, but when I do remember to wander over there, I like having the ability to "vote" on things, although for me it's mostly just a way to say "Hey, this is cool" in a less ambiguous way than favorites and more visible and quick way than commenting. Sort of like giving kudos on AO3 (for any fanfic readers/writers).
Actually, what if we tweaked the nomenclature a bit to make this more clearly a way to say "neat project"? I have a visceral aversion to the term "likes" probably because of Facebook, but something along the lines of "kudos" would work. Thumbs up? High fives?
posted by litera scripta manet at 2:28 PM on January 17, 2016
I don't check out projects frequently enough to have a super strong opinion on this, but when I do remember to wander over there, I like having the ability to "vote" on things, although for me it's mostly just a way to say "Hey, this is cool" in a less ambiguous way than favorites and more visible and quick way than commenting. Sort of like giving kudos on AO3 (for any fanfic readers/writers).
Actually, what if we tweaked the nomenclature a bit to make this more clearly a way to say "neat project"? I have a visceral aversion to the term "likes" probably because of Facebook, but something along the lines of "kudos" would work. Thumbs up? High fives?
posted by litera scripta manet at 2:28 PM on January 17, 2016
Nothing is "more visible" than commenting, and if you like something, taking the minimum amount of time required to find a few words and say why you liked it, or even just that you liked it, makes a difference to the people who create that stuff.
posted by Wolfdog at 4:07 PM on January 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Wolfdog at 4:07 PM on January 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
This thread has compelled me to go to Projects and vote for everything I like, so there's that at least.
posted by kyleg at 4:34 PM on January 17, 2016
posted by kyleg at 4:34 PM on January 17, 2016
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posted by Eideteker at 8:25 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]