Emotional Labor Article in The Guardian November 8, 2015 3:14 PM Subscribe
I just saw this article in The Guardian on Emotional Labor and it contains a link to the epic metafilter discussion!
It's been cool to see this discussion continue to spread in various venues in the last few months.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:45 PM on November 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:45 PM on November 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
I hate the term emotional labor for some reason but I'm glad the idea is getting traction.
posted by sweetkid at 3:50 PM on November 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by sweetkid at 3:50 PM on November 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think you mean the grauniad ;)
Awesome to see the thread linked there though. It may have gone downhill, but the Graun is still the most left leaning and liberal British Newspaper, and there really is nothing else like it. (The BBC seems to have reverted back to being the governments propaganda arm.)
It's been cool to see this discussion continue to spread in various venues in the last few months
LobsterMitten - I would love for you to elaborate on this a little in this thread, if possible.
posted by marienbad at 4:25 PM on November 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Awesome to see the thread linked there though. It may have gone downhill, but the Graun is still the most left leaning and liberal British Newspaper, and there really is nothing else like it. (The BBC seems to have reverted back to being the governments propaganda arm.)
It's been cool to see this discussion continue to spread in various venues in the last few months
LobsterMitten - I would love for you to elaborate on this a little in this thread, if possible.
posted by marienbad at 4:25 PM on November 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Just don't read the comments :|
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:28 PM on November 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:28 PM on November 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't have anything specific in mind, but I feel like I'm seeing the concept crop up in more and more places. Try searching "emotional labor" on Google News right now, there are a bunch of articles using it in just the last few weeks.
We also see people on Twitter continuing to discover and forward that thread to people, and there's a steady trickle of mentions of it in various places.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 4:32 PM on November 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
We also see people on Twitter continuing to discover and forward that thread to people, and there's a steady trickle of mentions of it in various places.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 4:32 PM on November 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Just don't read the comments :|
Yeah. Either there are a lot of sexist men among the Guardian's regular readers, or MRA types who don't typically read the paper come out of the woodwork to troll any articles on gender issues. Or maybe a bit of both. Either way, it's really noticeable, and annoying.
posted by Pink Frost at 4:43 PM on November 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah. Either there are a lot of sexist men among the Guardian's regular readers, or MRA types who don't typically read the paper come out of the woodwork to troll any articles on gender issues. Or maybe a bit of both. Either way, it's really noticeable, and annoying.
posted by Pink Frost at 4:43 PM on November 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I have also noticed that comments on feminist topics in the Guardian tend to be pretty shocking.
posted by maggiemaggie at 4:48 PM on November 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by maggiemaggie at 4:48 PM on November 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mmmmkay.. I tried just Googling "Emotional Labor" and the MetaFilter post didn't show up on the first 20 pages of results... the follow-up AskMe from five days later "Emotional Labor Checklist/Self-Assessment" was the #5 search result, just two below the article from The Toast that was linked in the post. And a Reddit thread in r/metafilter about it, was on the 11th page of results (#109). But no sign of our original thread.
I added "Unpaid" to "Emotional Labor" and there we were, 2nd result after the Toast article ... BUT with the warning message: This site may be hacked. I think we can make this official... Google Hates MetaFilter.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:52 PM on November 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
I added "Unpaid" to "Emotional Labor" and there we were, 2nd result after the Toast article ... BUT with the warning message: This site may be hacked. I think we can make this official... Google Hates MetaFilter.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:52 PM on November 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, that "may be hacked" warning shows up on a few of our long threads. We think they must be applying a filter based on the number of occurrences of certain words (just at a guess, "porn" or similar), so very long threads with a higher word count will have a higher likelihood of tripping their warning. We've tried to go through the process with them to remove the warning, but no soap.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 4:55 PM on November 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 4:55 PM on November 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
By contrast, a Bing search for "Emotional Labor" put our thread at #22 (which was actually the 2nd page) with the Toast article at #12. For "Unpaid Emotional Labor", we're #2 to Toast's #1 with no warning. Just sayin'.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:02 PM on November 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:02 PM on November 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
There actually appear to be a ton of right-leaning, anti-union, anti-feminist, pro-austerity, "keep Britain British" types who regularly read the Guardian, absolutely despise it, and routinely comment to that effect.
That is, the ones who don't have strong opinions about all the terrible things people are saying about Russia.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:36 PM on November 8, 2015 [12 favorites]
That is, the ones who don't have strong opinions about all the terrible things people are saying about Russia.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:36 PM on November 8, 2015 [12 favorites]
"No soap" is my new catch phrase, thank you!
posted by Melismata at 5:39 PM on November 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 5:39 PM on November 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Cool! Although it says "hundreds and hundreds" of women commented when actually it was thousands. I still grieve the closing of that thread...
It was just over 2000 comments, so "hundreds and hundreds" is probably accurate for the number of commenters, since many people comment multiple times.
As a reader rathan than a participant, it was a neat thread, and I am happy that it appears to be providing inspiration for other articles and discussions.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:40 PM on November 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
It was just over 2000 comments, so "hundreds and hundreds" is probably accurate for the number of commenters, since many people comment multiple times.
As a reader rathan than a participant, it was a neat thread, and I am happy that it appears to be providing inspiration for other articles and discussions.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:40 PM on November 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Cool! Although it says “hundreds and hundreds” of women commented when actually it was thousands. I still grieve the closing of that thread...
2,115 unique comments by 432 unique users. No doubt many more people commented offline and elsewhere, but that’s the count in the the thread.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:11 PM on November 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
2,115 unique comments by 432 unique users. No doubt many more people commented offline and elsewhere, but that’s the count in the the thread.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:11 PM on November 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
Google Search trends for "emotional labo(u)r": Frequent spikes and lulls but generally steady from 2007 to the present. There's a more persistent rise (for the US-ian "labor" version) from around September of this year onward.
Otherwise the only interesting thing is a relative leveling out (or zeroing-out for the "labour" version) in the summer weeks of every year from 2011-onwards. Which I guess is when there aren't university courses that cover the concept.
posted by ardgedee at 6:47 PM on November 8, 2015
Otherwise the only interesting thing is a relative leveling out (or zeroing-out for the "labour" version) in the summer weeks of every year from 2011-onwards. Which I guess is when there aren't university courses that cover the concept.
posted by ardgedee at 6:47 PM on November 8, 2015
I suppose it depends on the value of industry.
Not too long ago I was in a bar and happened to be standing beside a very tall guy, nearly 7' with tattoos on both arms. The obvious thought occurred to me, but didn't want to be immediately presumptuous. "So what do you do?"
"I work at the Staples center".
I bought him a drink and he invited me to come sit with him and his girlfriend at his table. I don't follow basketball but he seemed to be well known on the Los Angeles Laker's roster, and countless fans with cameras and stories stopped by his table through the evening. I asked him about his charity work, and his girlfriend kept telling me the different young Hollywood stars she was texting.
He was kind and generous, and I enjoyed the experience. I also know when he left the table, he was an entertainer that made millions being able to put a ball through a basket. A large part of the American population puts tremendous value on his ability to do so.
It's possible sending greeting cards or making up beds should be considered far and wide as having indelible value, one that regularly increases the numbers in individual bank accounts.
But it really depends on the value of the industry. 200 years ago, putting a ball in a basket wasn't a path to social status and fortune. In 2015, it clearly is.
I don't know if it's "revolutionary" to consider emotional labor valued. I'd imagine most people would say they love their mothers.
How to engineer the pipeline from calm hearts to payday is more of a mystery.
In 2015, I know the value of putting a ball through a basket. Maybe soon we'll know the exchange rate for kindness, and how much it costs to be loved.
posted by four panels at 6:56 PM on November 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Not too long ago I was in a bar and happened to be standing beside a very tall guy, nearly 7' with tattoos on both arms. The obvious thought occurred to me, but didn't want to be immediately presumptuous. "So what do you do?"
"I work at the Staples center".
I bought him a drink and he invited me to come sit with him and his girlfriend at his table. I don't follow basketball but he seemed to be well known on the Los Angeles Laker's roster, and countless fans with cameras and stories stopped by his table through the evening. I asked him about his charity work, and his girlfriend kept telling me the different young Hollywood stars she was texting.
He was kind and generous, and I enjoyed the experience. I also know when he left the table, he was an entertainer that made millions being able to put a ball through a basket. A large part of the American population puts tremendous value on his ability to do so.
It's possible sending greeting cards or making up beds should be considered far and wide as having indelible value, one that regularly increases the numbers in individual bank accounts.
But it really depends on the value of the industry. 200 years ago, putting a ball in a basket wasn't a path to social status and fortune. In 2015, it clearly is.
I don't know if it's "revolutionary" to consider emotional labor valued. I'd imagine most people would say they love their mothers.
How to engineer the pipeline from calm hearts to payday is more of a mystery.
In 2015, I know the value of putting a ball through a basket. Maybe soon we'll know the exchange rate for kindness, and how much it costs to be loved.
posted by four panels at 6:56 PM on November 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
That sounds like an interesting night.
You might be interested to read the thread -- a lot of people explained what the idea of emotional labor means in their lives.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:02 PM on November 8, 2015 [33 favorites]
You might be interested to read the thread -- a lot of people explained what the idea of emotional labor means in their lives.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:02 PM on November 8, 2015 [33 favorites]
In 2015, I know the value of putting a ball through a basket
That value applies only to a tiny elite, and the salaries of that elite must be high because they need to justify the enormous take of the networks, stadiums, and organizations that profit from their talents. I think the economics of basketball are a lot more complicated that what you're representing here. Think, too, of what fans contribute via emotional labor that adds to the cash value of team merchandise and viewership - now, there's something worth digging into a little bit more. The emotional labor of fandom, generating cash worth for the few.
posted by Miko at 7:08 PM on November 8, 2015 [12 favorites]
That value applies only to a tiny elite, and the salaries of that elite must be high because they need to justify the enormous take of the networks, stadiums, and organizations that profit from their talents. I think the economics of basketball are a lot more complicated that what you're representing here. Think, too, of what fans contribute via emotional labor that adds to the cash value of team merchandise and viewership - now, there's something worth digging into a little bit more. The emotional labor of fandom, generating cash worth for the few.
posted by Miko at 7:08 PM on November 8, 2015 [12 favorites]
Well, from a historical view point the closet thing resembling the sport in question would be what we call Lacrosse.
Dunno, "In 1763, Ojibwas used a lacrosse game to capture Fort Michilimackinac (now Mackinac). Natives invited the fort's British troops to watch a lacrosse game. The players gradually worked their way close to the gates, and then rushed into the fort and carried out a general massacre"
-from wiki page on Lacrosse.
It's a small thing but saying that putting a ball through a hoop had no real/same meaning 200 years ago as today is clearly false granting the conflation of modern status and sport to historical analogies.
posted by clavdivs at 7:22 PM on November 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
Dunno, "In 1763, Ojibwas used a lacrosse game to capture Fort Michilimackinac (now Mackinac). Natives invited the fort's British troops to watch a lacrosse game. The players gradually worked their way close to the gates, and then rushed into the fort and carried out a general massacre"
-from wiki page on Lacrosse.
It's a small thing but saying that putting a ball through a hoop had no real/same meaning 200 years ago as today is clearly false granting the conflation of modern status and sport to historical analogies.
posted by clavdivs at 7:22 PM on November 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
I wanted to point out the conversation happening on Twitter from women of color like Lauren Chief Elk and others who started talking about emotional labor via #GiveYourMoneyToWomen - particularly in response to the Guardian article which doesn't mention these origins at all.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:28 PM on November 8, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 7:28 PM on November 8, 2015 [23 favorites]
Psst--hey, guys, there's a Crone Island Slack now. This feels like a good time to mention that. If you are interested in further discussions of the concepts/riffing on things from the EL thread/talking to other people about the EL thread that you just found/hanging out in a Slack, MeMail me an email address and I'll drop you an invite.
Incidentally, we keep getting a slow but steady trickle of people who find us via the emotional labor thread, so it's definitely still getting links. I keep seeing references to it in the wild and smiling--linked on Captain Awkward, for example. It's nice to have been a very small part of something that wound up meaning so much to so many people.
posted by sciatrix at 8:04 PM on November 8, 2015 [12 favorites]
Incidentally, we keep getting a slow but steady trickle of people who find us via the emotional labor thread, so it's definitely still getting links. I keep seeing references to it in the wild and smiling--linked on Captain Awkward, for example. It's nice to have been a very small part of something that wound up meaning so much to so many people.
posted by sciatrix at 8:04 PM on November 8, 2015 [12 favorites]
Crone Island is also two physical places. Y’all might want to have a meetup.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:11 PM on November 8, 2015
posted by Going To Maine at 8:11 PM on November 8, 2015
I cannot resist the urge to mention that Crone Island, Minnesota is adjacent to Nosey Island, Hackberry Point and Nelson Narrows ("HA ha"). And Crone Island, Alaska is a very small island just south of the much larger Adak Island.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:14 PM on November 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:14 PM on November 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
The prevailing contemporary conversation, as evidenced in that article, seems to be how to get emotional labour valued or how to get him to do more emotional labour.
Yet every time he asks "where do we keep the towels?" she just fucking tells him, getting more and more annoyed every time. Why is the prevailing conversation not about helping women to say "I don't know, honey; where do you think the towels are?"
posted by DarlingBri at 11:32 PM on November 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yet every time he asks "where do we keep the towels?" she just fucking tells him, getting more and more annoyed every time. Why is the prevailing conversation not about helping women to say "I don't know, honey; where do you think the towels are?"
posted by DarlingBri at 11:32 PM on November 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think because people are hoping that if he is told bluntly enough, he will learn how to stop doing that without needing a woman to take him by the hand and lead him through the process of discovery.
posted by KathrynT at 12:15 AM on November 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 12:15 AM on November 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
I drifted down into reading the comments, because I am an idiot, and the contrast between that and the discussion thread on the Blue made me so very grateful for MetaFilter. Especially the MetaFilter of today, because I don't know that even three years ago that thread would have gone down as well here, without at least some degree of that super-frustrating "I don't care that this point has been hashed out approximately 27 times in the thread so far, I want you to explain it once again to me, personally, because I am far too busy to read all these comments or do more than skim the actual article" thing that used to happen all through the long sexism-related threads.
It was so wonderful to be able to have that kind of discussion without it getting stopped at the first hurdle of "yes, this thing is a problem - yes, really it is a problem - yes, it is a problem to real people, the people who are talking to you right now - yes, really, really this problem exists" and on to discuss things like what this problem looked like for us, and how we felt about it, and what ways we needed things to change to make it better. I knew how frustrating the "but but but, prove the existence of this problem to meeeee!" stuff was, but I don't think I had quite appreciated just how much it brutally hobbles the entire conversation.
So thanks, bratty sexist Guardian commenters! (But more thanks, MetaFilter.)
posted by Catseye at 1:17 AM on November 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
It was so wonderful to be able to have that kind of discussion without it getting stopped at the first hurdle of "yes, this thing is a problem - yes, really it is a problem - yes, it is a problem to real people, the people who are talking to you right now - yes, really, really this problem exists" and on to discuss things like what this problem looked like for us, and how we felt about it, and what ways we needed things to change to make it better. I knew how frustrating the "but but but, prove the existence of this problem to meeeee!" stuff was, but I don't think I had quite appreciated just how much it brutally hobbles the entire conversation.
So thanks, bratty sexist Guardian commenters! (But more thanks, MetaFilter.)
posted by Catseye at 1:17 AM on November 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
I wrote and deleted answers to those comments above because I am having a crummy day. Yay for emotional labour going into the zeitgeist, but it's also something that as robots/AI and automation take more and more space in the economy, not just a private social matter. It's about money too.
Everytime I've pushed back, I've made gains, but it's cost me. It's cost me my marriage, friendships, family relationships, social support, work, and money, so much money in money I have to pay for things or money I can't earn because I don't have the time to work and so on. I'm very very lucky to be able to have somehow wiggled through to a precarious temporary safety for now, but there have been some nasty days this year if not for the help of a single person coming through, I couldn't have managed to keep going, and I was just bloody lucky.
One wrong turn and - it was an awful year of fighting back. I still might lose everything, it feels some days. It'd be easier just to stop pushing all the time. But it's relentless, the pull to do emotional labour for free.
And I completely get why people who do the emotional labour without recognition or reward bite their tongue and say "in the cupboard, bottom shelf" and think about how they should label the cupboards and put the towels neatly folded in a pretty basket so they're easier to find, because that's how you survive an exploitative system. If it's your fault, you can still hope to try and "fix" yourself. If it's the system and you can't escape, you just despair.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 1:39 AM on November 9, 2015 [15 favorites]
Everytime I've pushed back, I've made gains, but it's cost me. It's cost me my marriage, friendships, family relationships, social support, work, and money, so much money in money I have to pay for things or money I can't earn because I don't have the time to work and so on. I'm very very lucky to be able to have somehow wiggled through to a precarious temporary safety for now, but there have been some nasty days this year if not for the help of a single person coming through, I couldn't have managed to keep going, and I was just bloody lucky.
One wrong turn and - it was an awful year of fighting back. I still might lose everything, it feels some days. It'd be easier just to stop pushing all the time. But it's relentless, the pull to do emotional labour for free.
And I completely get why people who do the emotional labour without recognition or reward bite their tongue and say "in the cupboard, bottom shelf" and think about how they should label the cupboards and put the towels neatly folded in a pretty basket so they're easier to find, because that's how you survive an exploitative system. If it's your fault, you can still hope to try and "fix" yourself. If it's the system and you can't escape, you just despair.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 1:39 AM on November 9, 2015 [15 favorites]
"yes, this thing is a problem - yes, really it is a problem - yes, it is a problem to real people, the people who are talking to you right now - yes, really, really this problem exists"
I'm sorry, but I couldn't help but read this in my head in the voice of Jennifer Marlowe.
Also, re: Grauniad comments - I pretty much gave up on them ages ago as I couldn't believe what I was reading. It was like there was some Mirror Universe Grauniad and their commenters had made it to ours and left those shitty comments. I have honestly read some in the past and thought, "You read the Graun? Why?"
On preview: Stay safe, dorothyisunderwood, I hope you make it through.
posted by marienbad at 1:44 AM on November 9, 2015
I'm sorry, but I couldn't help but read this in my head in the voice of Jennifer Marlowe.
Also, re: Grauniad comments - I pretty much gave up on them ages ago as I couldn't believe what I was reading. It was like there was some Mirror Universe Grauniad and their commenters had made it to ours and left those shitty comments. I have honestly read some in the past and thought, "You read the Graun? Why?"
On preview: Stay safe, dorothyisunderwood, I hope you make it through.
posted by marienbad at 1:44 AM on November 9, 2015
The Guardian comments section seems to have very little connection with the readership of the paper itself. Lots of very angry people seem compelled to comment there.
posted by pharm at 5:27 AM on November 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by pharm at 5:27 AM on November 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
I was one of those people who had my head blown off by The Thread and posted links and references to it all over my Facebook. A male friend of mine, who I wasn't even sure was looking at all those links, just sent me the guardian piece saying "hey, saw this and thought of you."
My reputation for calling attention to EL precedes me! Winning at life!
posted by ActionPopulated at 5:39 AM on November 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
My reputation for calling attention to EL precedes me! Winning at life!
posted by ActionPopulated at 5:39 AM on November 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
There actually appear to be a ton of right-leaning, anti-union, anti-feminist, pro-austerity, "keep Britain British" types who regularly read the Guardian, absolutely despise it, and routinely comment to that effect. That is, the ones who don't have strong opinions about all the terrible things people are saying about Russia.
I imagine the latter is paid PR; the former I just assume are on the dole.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:30 AM on November 9, 2015
I imagine the latter is paid PR; the former I just assume are on the dole.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:30 AM on November 9, 2015
200 years ago, putting a ball in a basket wasn't a path to social status and fortune.
The Maya and Aztecs have been doing this for thousands of years.
"I work at the Staples center".
I don't follow basketball but he seemed to be well known on the Los Angeles Laker's roster,
FWIW, he could have been a Clipper.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:57 AM on November 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
The Maya and Aztecs have been doing this for thousands of years.
"I work at the Staples center".
I don't follow basketball but he seemed to be well known on the Los Angeles Laker's roster,
FWIW, he could have been a Clipper.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:57 AM on November 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
There actually appear to be a ton of right-leaning, anti-union, anti-feminist, pro-austerity, "keep Britain British" types who regularly read the Guardian, absolutely despise it, and routinely comment to that effect.
To be fair I registered a profile on the Daily Mail a year or so ago, just so I could go on there occasionally and annoy them with lefty, pro-feminist, anti-Clarkson sentiments so I'd imagine my evil twin is on the grauniad site typing furiously (in both senses of the word).
posted by billiebee at 7:39 AM on November 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
To be fair I registered a profile on the Daily Mail a year or so ago, just so I could go on there occasionally and annoy them with lefty, pro-feminist, anti-Clarkson sentiments so I'd imagine my evil twin is on the grauniad site typing furiously (in both senses of the word).
posted by billiebee at 7:39 AM on November 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
The Guardian comments section seems to have very little connection with the readership of the paper itself. Lots of very angry people seem compelled to comment there.
Same thing happens with many left-leaning sites -- Talking Points Memo, Mother Jones, etc. The Freeper trolls flock there in droves, frothing about "liberal poison" and the feminization of America (and Britain, apparently),etc. It's so common that I pretty much assume it's part of some organized campaign driven by Erik Erikson or his like.
posted by holborne at 7:47 AM on November 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Same thing happens with many left-leaning sites -- Talking Points Memo, Mother Jones, etc. The Freeper trolls flock there in droves, frothing about "liberal poison" and the feminization of America (and Britain, apparently),etc. It's so common that I pretty much assume it's part of some organized campaign driven by Erik Erikson or his like.
posted by holborne at 7:47 AM on November 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Scrolling through #GiveYourMoneyToWomen quickly introduced me to another hashtag, #findom, which I initially parsed as "find om." I started searching for what 'OM' might stand for as an acronym, after quickly ascertaining it was not referring to this or this, assuming it had to be some cool new term that I just didn't know anything about because I'm totally unaware of what happens on social media unless I read about it here. I came up short. What on earth could it mean? I started searching for the hashtag on its own, in the wilds of Google.
...
Let me tell you, folks: "findom" is not a combination of "find" and "OM." Hoo boy.
posted by divined by radio at 7:58 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
...
Let me tell you, folks: "findom" is not a combination of "find" and "OM." Hoo boy.
posted by divined by radio at 7:58 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have passed this thread on to many ladies in my life and I regret it not a whit. The worst part is when they have that lightbulb come on in their heads and ask their partners to read it, only to met with "BUT IT'S SOOOOOOO LONG." It stings especially in that I perceive these men to caring feminist partners.
posted by Kitteh at 8:19 AM on November 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:19 AM on November 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Same thing happens with many left-leaning sites -- Talking Points Memo, Mother Jones, etc. The Freeper trolls flock there in droves, frothing about "liberal poison" and the feminization of America (and Britain, apparently),etc."
Don't kid yourselves about sexism and racism and many similar things on the left (most especially the center left, which applies to all these sites we're discussing). I read TPM and MJ and the Guardian and some others like that regularly -- I've been reading TPM since it was just Josh Marshall. I recognize the names of many commenters. And a whole lot -- the majority, really -- of straight white men who are progressive on economic issues are sexist and racist and homophobic and transphobic in ways that are just slightly less explicit than what you'd expect from your typical conservative.
And this applies to MetaFilter. I think a fair portion of the straight white men on this site that we've had problems with are people who would solidly count as left of center in either British of American politics. There is approximately zero reason to believe that the vast majority of men on the left won't respond to the whole discussion about EL with the kinds of comments that appeared early in the thread.
This is the kind of thing here that really bugs me, and is relevant to the discussion in the recent racism-related MeTas. The left in general and MetaFilter in particular is self-congratulatory about our progressivism on social issues while, in fact, it's just barely an improvement over the mean ... and on a few topics, only. It's these assumptions that we're not the problem and that the bad behavior we see in others is what those very different-from-us bad people do that lead us to discover that a whole bunch of people of color are complaining about racism on the site and we're all "what??" We were all "what??" about sexism eight years ago and "what??" about transphobia two years ago. Until people start recognizing that the problems are in us, that we're encultured into these ideas and they permeate our subconscious, it's not going to get better. It's not them. It's us. "They" might be worse in many ways, but we're no unsullied angels.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:22 AM on November 9, 2015 [34 favorites]
Don't kid yourselves about sexism and racism and many similar things on the left (most especially the center left, which applies to all these sites we're discussing). I read TPM and MJ and the Guardian and some others like that regularly -- I've been reading TPM since it was just Josh Marshall. I recognize the names of many commenters. And a whole lot -- the majority, really -- of straight white men who are progressive on economic issues are sexist and racist and homophobic and transphobic in ways that are just slightly less explicit than what you'd expect from your typical conservative.
And this applies to MetaFilter. I think a fair portion of the straight white men on this site that we've had problems with are people who would solidly count as left of center in either British of American politics. There is approximately zero reason to believe that the vast majority of men on the left won't respond to the whole discussion about EL with the kinds of comments that appeared early in the thread.
This is the kind of thing here that really bugs me, and is relevant to the discussion in the recent racism-related MeTas. The left in general and MetaFilter in particular is self-congratulatory about our progressivism on social issues while, in fact, it's just barely an improvement over the mean ... and on a few topics, only. It's these assumptions that we're not the problem and that the bad behavior we see in others is what those very different-from-us bad people do that lead us to discover that a whole bunch of people of color are complaining about racism on the site and we're all "what??" We were all "what??" about sexism eight years ago and "what??" about transphobia two years ago. Until people start recognizing that the problems are in us, that we're encultured into these ideas and they permeate our subconscious, it's not going to get better. It's not them. It's us. "They" might be worse in many ways, but we're no unsullied angels.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:22 AM on November 9, 2015 [34 favorites]
Let me tell you, folks: "findom" is not a combination of "find" and "OM." Hoo boy.
........what is it then? Do I have to go looking? I'm intensely curious now but also sort of afraid to Google.
posted by sciatrix at 8:29 AM on November 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
........what is it then? Do I have to go looking? I'm intensely curious now but also sort of afraid to Google.
posted by sciatrix at 8:29 AM on November 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is the ideal use case for TorBrowser, if you’ve been wondering why to get it.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:32 AM on November 9, 2015
posted by Going To Maine at 8:32 AM on November 9, 2015
Also, it appears to be a fetish around “financial domination”, which involves a sexual thrill from giving someone money. But that’s from a single search query, so take that with a grain of salt.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:40 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Going To Maine at 8:40 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's the subcommunity of science fiction fans who are also cetaceans.
posted by stebulus at 9:42 AM on November 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by stebulus at 9:42 AM on November 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yeah, I tried a glove startup there, went dorsal side down.
posted by Oyéah at 9:59 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 9:59 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh gosh. I enjoyed that thread but felt I had little to contribute. And having gone through a crucible or two as a young women making very poor choices of partner, I feel like I've done a pretty good job of drawing my own boundaries around which emotional labor I will or won't do but I'm not sure how useful that information is to people I'm not in a relationship with.
But DarlingBri's Yet every time he asks "where do we keep the towels?" she just fucking tells him, getting more and more annoyed every time. Why is the prevailing conversation not about helping women to say "I don't know, honey; where do you think the towels are?" comment has suddenly clarified a dynamic for me with regard to one of those boundaries which I routinely draw (that has nothing to do with towels nor with my husband not knowing where things are kept in the house in which he lives)
In short, this is the conversation that continues to produce good results.
posted by crush-onastick at 10:21 AM on November 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
But DarlingBri's Yet every time he asks "where do we keep the towels?" she just fucking tells him, getting more and more annoyed every time. Why is the prevailing conversation not about helping women to say "I don't know, honey; where do you think the towels are?" comment has suddenly clarified a dynamic for me with regard to one of those boundaries which I routinely draw (that has nothing to do with towels nor with my husband not knowing where things are kept in the house in which he lives)
In short, this is the conversation that continues to produce good results.
posted by crush-onastick at 10:21 AM on November 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Especially the MetaFilter of today, because I don't know that even three years ago that thread would have gone down as well here, without at least some degree of that super-frustrating "I don't care that this point has been hashed out approximately 27 times in the thread so far, I want you to explain it once again to me, personally, because I am far too busy to read all these comments or do more than skim the actual article" thing that used to happen all through the long sexism-related threads.
Well they already lost all that time (about 0.03 seconds) looking for towels so they're a wee impatient.
posted by phearlez at 2:24 PM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well they already lost all that time (about 0.03 seconds) looking for towels so they're a wee impatient.
posted by phearlez at 2:24 PM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yet every time he asks "where do we keep the towels?" she just fucking tells him, getting more and more annoyed every time. Why is the prevailing conversation not about helping women to say "I don't know, honey; where do you think the towels are?"
There was a lot of good discussion around this point in the big thread itself; some people expressed something like "women should just stop doing extra labor (emotional and otherwise) because doing so enables their partners to keep comfortably doing nothing," others were somewhere more like "lots of men are capable of comfortably doing nothing even if this means nothing gets done, so the outcome of this is that people just don't have towels / people over / relationships with their parents, which is bad for everyone,' and I'm sure there were a lot of nuances of these and totally different stories that I'm not remembering now.
posted by escabeche at 7:38 PM on November 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
There was a lot of good discussion around this point in the big thread itself; some people expressed something like "women should just stop doing extra labor (emotional and otherwise) because doing so enables their partners to keep comfortably doing nothing," others were somewhere more like "lots of men are capable of comfortably doing nothing even if this means nothing gets done, so the outcome of this is that people just don't have towels / people over / relationships with their parents, which is bad for everyone,' and I'm sure there were a lot of nuances of these and totally different stories that I'm not remembering now.
posted by escabeche at 7:38 PM on November 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
This makes me happy.
posted by kinetic at 2:48 AM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by kinetic at 2:48 AM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I call my partner 'bro' every time he makes some request that amounts to me doing all the work for something. He hates being called bro, but act like a bro, get called a bro, bro.
towels are where they always are bro
posted by palindromic at 1:18 PM on November 10, 2015 [22 favorites]
towels are where they always are bro
posted by palindromic at 1:18 PM on November 10, 2015 [22 favorites]
"Same thing happens with many left-leaning sites -- Talking Points Memo, Mother Jones, etc. The Freeper trolls flock there in droves, frothing about "liberal poison" and the feminization of America (and Britain, apparently),etc."
It's really weird, but the Guardian comments section is really popular with UKIP supporters.
posted by Nevin at 1:53 PM on November 10, 2015
It's really weird, but the Guardian comments section is really popular with UKIP supporters.
posted by Nevin at 1:53 PM on November 10, 2015
Who are these idiot men who don't know where the towels are in their houses? Really? We keep ours in the linen closet. I'm usually the one who puts them there. I know not everyone has a linen closet, but don't most people settle on one location for such things? Even if the guy isn't the one who washes and puts them away, surely he's dried himself more than once. Does he not remember where he got a towel the last time?
If your man is this clueless, I can see why you get annoyed with him.
posted by double block and bleed at 7:57 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
If your man is this clueless, I can see why you get annoyed with him.
posted by double block and bleed at 7:57 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
My father has called my mother from the grocery store for years to ask what brand of x and y we buy. Before cell phones we had to write brand, size, etc out for him. And he's pretty progressive, made dinner, did his share of cleaning/kid wrangling. There's just some sort of block in some men I think. They can't totally be that guy.
posted by sweetkid at 8:03 PM on November 10, 2015
posted by sweetkid at 8:03 PM on November 10, 2015
Yeah, but "that sort of block" is just privilege. "I'm too important to have to remember this or figure it out on my own." And my father, whom I adore, was the same until my mother died, and he still tried that shit of blaming her for "hiding things" for a few years after her death, until the parts of his brain that realized that "knowing where the towels are" were important enough that he himself had to remember kicked in.
posted by jaguar at 8:13 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 8:13 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
I agree, I don't think it's anything but privilege.
posted by sweetkid at 8:15 PM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by sweetkid at 8:15 PM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's totally privilege--that's the point and that's the burden of being required to do the emotional labor. It is tiring to do the work of organizing a house and then to remember how a household is organized. It takes mental energy to attend to the food preferences of all members of the household, The effort spent maintaining social ties with in-laws, the parents of your babysitter, the school teacher is mental and emotional and temporal effort you don't get to spend on anything else. So He Who Can't Be Bothered to Recall Where Towels are Stored or Which Percentage Milk Fat Milk Should Be Purchased is not an idiot.
He's not hapless, helpless, clueless or cute; he does not have "some sort of block that guys get This is not Being That Guy. Its exercising dominance and privilege by demonstrating loudly that his mental resources Simply Will Not Be Wasted on this Useless Stuff which You Can Just Do for Him.
That's the whole point of the emotional labor conversation.
posted by crush-onastick at 6:25 AM on November 11, 2015 [11 favorites]
He's not hapless, helpless, clueless or cute; he does not have "some sort of block that guys get This is not Being That Guy. Its exercising dominance and privilege by demonstrating loudly that his mental resources Simply Will Not Be Wasted on this Useless Stuff which You Can Just Do for Him.
That's the whole point of the emotional labor conversation.
posted by crush-onastick at 6:25 AM on November 11, 2015 [11 favorites]
This mysterious "mental block" frequently disappears as if by magic when the resident towel-finder gets fed up and leaves. I mean literally going from "can you do this thing for me, I am so clueless haha" to "oh look, Google contains full instructions for doing this thing and it is very straightforward, who knew".
posted by emilyw at 7:44 AM on November 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by emilyw at 7:44 AM on November 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
My response to "why not just refuse to do it, then" remains "because I don't want to squat in a dark smelly house like an animal and never see my friends or family," which is how bad some men would let it get. (I've seen lots of older men, when their wives die first, do exactly that. Or go looking for another woman to do those things for him).
I mean, life is short, you know? And generally, if you're in a relationship where you love someone, you have some kind of belief that they are a good person and can learn things because they care about you. So you try to make them understand.
posted by emjaybee at 12:40 PM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, life is short, you know? And generally, if you're in a relationship where you love someone, you have some kind of belief that they are a good person and can learn things because they care about you. So you try to make them understand.
posted by emjaybee at 12:40 PM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also can someone please holp me on the actual process to join Slack. I can set up an account...then what do I do? Must someone invite me?
Won't someone please tell me the way to Crone Island?
posted by emjaybee at 12:47 PM on November 13, 2015
Won't someone please tell me the way to Crone Island?
posted by emjaybee at 12:47 PM on November 13, 2015
This mysterious "mental block" frequently disappears as if by magic
Yeah, but "that sort of block" is just privilege.
I'm the person who mentioned a mental block with my father and am confused that it seemed like I thought it was mysterious or not privilege or just a man thing or what. I think the "mental block" comes from unexamined privilege, what I meant specifically with that example is that despite being pretty progressive in most things, even men like my father still have lots of unexamined privilege and/or internal resistance to doing "women things" even if they would never call it such.
posted by sweetkid at 12:48 PM on November 13, 2015
Yeah, but "that sort of block" is just privilege.
I'm the person who mentioned a mental block with my father and am confused that it seemed like I thought it was mysterious or not privilege or just a man thing or what. I think the "mental block" comes from unexamined privilege, what I meant specifically with that example is that despite being pretty progressive in most things, even men like my father still have lots of unexamined privilege and/or internal resistance to doing "women things" even if they would never call it such.
posted by sweetkid at 12:48 PM on November 13, 2015
Any level of snark or sarcasm on my part re. mysterious disappearance of mental blocks, was directed at the people who can't find the towels and not in any way at you, sweetkid! Next time I shall compose my thoughts with more care.
posted by emilyw at 1:18 PM on November 13, 2015
posted by emilyw at 1:18 PM on November 13, 2015
If you'd like a Crone Island Slack invite, please MeMail me your email address and I'll be happy to get an invitation sent out to you.
posted by angelchrys at 1:21 PM on November 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by angelchrys at 1:21 PM on November 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
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posted by billiebee at 3:34 PM on November 8, 2015 [4 favorites]