Not Sure if Bug Report or Pony Request August 14, 2014 6:15 PM Subscribe
I can't login using Lynx. Specifically, I can't get Lynx to even prompt me to accept any cookies from Metafilter, and I think I know why. The problem seems to be with when cookies expire.
Using Lynx to dump the header, I see that the Set-Cookie request is present, but the expiry date is notable: 06-August -2044. I can't help but notice that this expiry date is farther in the future than time_t for 32-bit linux systems can represent.
So I took a look at the Lynx source, and sure enough:
Using Lynx to dump the header, I see that the Set-Cookie request is present, but the expiry date is notable: 06-August -2044. I can't help but notice that this expiry date is farther in the future than time_t for 32-bit linux systems can represent.
So I took a look at the Lynx source, and sure enough:
struct _cookie {
//..
time_t expires; /* The time when this cookie expires */
//..
};Have you tried any Lynx alternatives? Can ELinks handle cookies with 30-year expiration dates?
posted by pb (staff) at 6:44 PM on August 14, 2014
posted by pb (staff) at 6:44 PM on August 14, 2014
The OP has it correct in the tags: this is a symptom of the Year 2038 problem.
posted by anifinder at 7:08 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by anifinder at 7:08 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
I just tried it with elinks and the problem is much more explicit. The cookies expire on 01 Jul 1908, but presumably won't be cleared until the session ends.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 7:16 PM on August 14, 2014
posted by [expletive deleted] at 7:16 PM on August 14, 2014
I found a relevant support page from Adobe about this:
Using the Administrator console to secure session cookies: In the Administrator, go to the Settings > Memory Variables page. There is a new section Session Cookie Settings. By Default, we have enabled HttpOnly with an expiration of 30 years (for maintaining backward compatibility). I strongly recommend that you set the expiration for Cookie Timeout to a much smaller value (Figure 1).
posted by [expletive deleted] at 7:39 PM on August 14, 2014
Using the Administrator console to secure session cookies: In the Administrator, go to the Settings > Memory Variables page. There is a new section Session Cookie Settings. By Default, we have enabled HttpOnly with an expiration of 30 years (for maintaining backward compatibility). I strongly recommend that you set the expiration for Cookie Timeout to a much smaller value (Figure 1).
posted by [expletive deleted] at 7:39 PM on August 14, 2014
Thanks, but we're running a different version of ColdFusion and it doesn't have that global setting.
posted by pb (staff) at 7:46 PM on August 14, 2014
posted by pb (staff) at 7:46 PM on August 14, 2014
This thread is my favorite on metafilter.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:46 PM on August 14, 2014 [27 favorites]
posted by cjorgensen at 7:46 PM on August 14, 2014 [27 favorites]
God bless you for making me think of Lynx today.
posted by maryr at 7:55 PM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by maryr at 7:55 PM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]
Hah, you poor suckers using Lynx are missing out on all the awesome meme gifs in the comments.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:47 PM on August 14, 2014 [13 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 8:47 PM on August 14, 2014 [13 favorites]
Are you on a 64 bit system? If I understand the problem correctly, the problem is specific to 32 bit *nix systems.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 9:15 PM on August 14, 2014
posted by [expletive deleted] at 9:15 PM on August 14, 2014
If you have access to the source, perhaps you can conditionally apply arithmetic on the expires value, adding to or subtracting from the overflowing expiry date to prevent it from being treated as an overflowing, expired value when accessing this domain. Or use a macro to redefine time_t as a int64_t to use 64-bit arithmetic for time values. Then compile a new version of Lynx.
posted by Mr. Six at 11:01 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Mr. Six at 11:01 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
I tried logging in using a lynx but it tried to eat the mouse.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:29 AM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:29 AM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
It doesn't work for me either. I get a redirect link, but nothing happens, and when I click it I am still not logged in. This was in an ssh session to my hosted account at pair.com on my iPad. (Back to the future!)
posted by cjorgensen at 5:55 AM on August 15, 2014
posted by cjorgensen at 5:55 AM on August 15, 2014
The MetaFilter gopher server is (still) down, but would feel guilty about over-burdening PB so deciding not to open a thread; will struggle on with the new-fangled Webbie thing instead. Le sigh.
#ForeverGopher
posted by Wordshore at 5:56 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]
#ForeverGopher
posted by Wordshore at 5:56 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]
maybe the lynx ate the gophers :(
posted by Wolfdog at 7:44 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Wolfdog at 7:44 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
-... ..- --. / .-. . .--. --- .-. - ---... / - .- --. ... / -. --- - / ...- .. ... .. -... .-.. . / --- ...- . .-. / - .-. .- -. ... -.-. --- -. - .. -. . -. - .- .-.. / - . .-.. . --. .-. .- .--. .... .-.-.-
posted by griphus at 8:05 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by griphus at 8:05 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
#ForeverGopher
Whoa, Gopher utilized hashtags? How very advanced for its era, I had no idea.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:12 AM on August 15, 2014
Whoa, Gopher utilized hashtags? How very advanced for its era, I had no idea.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:12 AM on August 15, 2014
"-... ..- --. / .-. . .--. --- .-. - ---... / - .- --. ... / -. --- - / ...- .. ... .. -... .-.. . / --- ...- . .-. / - .-. .- -. ... -.-. --- -. - .. -. . -. - .- .-.. / - . .-.. . --. .-. .- .--. .... .-.-.-"
.- - / .-- .... .- - / .--. --- .. -. - / .-- .. .-.. .-.. / - .... . / -- --- -.. ... / - . .-.. .-.. / ..- ... / - --- / ... - --- .--. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .. -. --. ..--.. / .. ... / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .. -. --. / .- / ...- . .-. -... ..--..
posted by Wordshore at 8:12 AM on August 15, 2014
.- - / .-- .... .- - / .--. --- .. -. - / .-- .. .-.. .-.. / - .... . / -- --- -.. ... / - . .-.. .-.. / ..- ... / - --- / ... - --- .--. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .. -. --. ..--.. / .. ... / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .. -. --. / .- / ...- . .-. -... ..--..
posted by Wordshore at 8:12 AM on August 15, 2014
.. / .--- ..- ... - / ..-. --- ..- -. -.. / .- -. / --- -. .-.. .. -. . / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - --- .-. .-.-.- / .- -. -.. / .. / - .... .. -. -.- / -.-- --- ..- / .-- --- ..- .-.. -.. / ... .- -.-- / ... . -. -.. .. -. --. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . / .. -. ... - . .- -.. / --- ..-. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .. -. --. .-.-.-
posted by filthy light thief at 8:23 AM on August 15, 2014
posted by filthy light thief at 8:23 AM on August 15, 2014
[let's just assume I went to the trouble of finding a way to install Netscape Navigator 2.0 and took some screenshots to insert here]
posted by Rock Steady at 8:32 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 8:32 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
I just pushed out a change that will set cookies to expire in 15 years instead of 30.
posted by pb (staff) at 8:49 AM on August 15, 2014 [15 favorites]
posted by pb (staff) at 8:49 AM on August 15, 2014 [15 favorites]
-.-. .- -. / .-- . / ..- ... . / - .... .. ... / - .... .-. . .- -.. / - --- / .--. .-.. .- -.-- / - .... . / .- .-.. .--. .... .- -... . - / --. .- -- . / .. -. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . / -. --- .-- ..--..
posted by Ned G at 8:51 AM on August 15, 2014
posted by Ned G at 8:51 AM on August 15, 2014
it's a very niche request.
Understatement.
Personally I just telnet into port 80 when I'm on a headless machine and type in the HTTP protocol manually.
posted by stp123 at 8:56 AM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]
Understatement.
Personally I just telnet into port 80 when I'm on a headless machine and type in the HTTP protocol manually.
posted by stp123 at 8:56 AM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]
Right now, I mean, not just like once fourteen years ago or something.
posted by Wolfdog at 8:57 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Wolfdog at 8:57 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
I'm posting right now from a soothing terminal screen.
Ahhhh.
posted by Wolfdog at 9:01 AM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]
Ahhhh.
posted by Wolfdog at 9:01 AM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]
It works, it works! Thanks so much, pb! I realize this is definitely a fringe request, and I really appreciate your help.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 9:16 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by [expletive deleted] at 9:16 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
"-.-. .- -. / .-- . / ..- ... . / - .... .. ... / - .... .-. . .- -.. / - --- / .--. .-.. .- -.-- / - .... . / .- .-.. .--. .... .- -... . - / --. .- -- . / .. -. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . / -. --- .-- ..--.."
.- .--. .--. .-.. .
posted by Wordshore at 9:35 AM on August 15, 2014
.- .--. .--. .-.. .
posted by Wordshore at 9:35 AM on August 15, 2014
-... ..- - / .. / .-- .. ... .... / - .... . / .--. --- ... - / - .. - .-.. . / .... .- -.. / -... . . -. / -- -.-- / .-.. -.-- -. -..- / - .... .-. --- .-- ... / ..- .--. / - .... . / -.-. --- --- -.- .. . ... / -.-- --- ..- / ... . -. -..
posted by benito.strauss at 9:41 AM on August 15, 2014
posted by benito.strauss at 9:41 AM on August 15, 2014
-.-. .-. .- .--. --..-- / ... -. .. .--. . -.. / -... -.-- / -- .. - .... . .-. .- .-..
posted by benito.strauss at 9:42 AM on August 15, 2014
posted by benito.strauss at 9:42 AM on August 15, 2014
. ...- . .-. -.-- --- -. . .-- .....- -. - .. -. --. - --- .--. .- .-. - .. -.-. .. .--. .- - . -.-- --- ..- -.-. .- -. - -.-- .--. . .. -. -- --- .-. ... . ..- ... .. -. --. - .... . - .... . .-.. . . - -.- . -.-- ..-. .. .-. . ..-. --- -..- . -..- - . -. ... .. --- -. .-.-.-
posted by Mitheral at 9:45 AM on August 15, 2014
posted by Mitheral at 9:45 AM on August 15, 2014
..-. .. -. .- -. -.-. .. .- .-.. .-.. -.-- --..-- / - .... .. ... / .. ... / -. --- - / --. --- .. -. --. / - --- / .... . .-.. .--. / - .... . / -- . - .- ..-. .. .-.. - . .-. / --. --- --- --. .-.. . / .- -.. / .-. .- -. -.- .. -. --. / - .... .. -. --. --..-- / .. ... / .. - ..--..
posted by Wordshore at 9:50 AM on August 15, 2014
posted by Wordshore at 9:50 AM on August 15, 2014
--. --- --- --. .-.. . .----. ... / .- .-.. --. --- .-. .. - .... -- ... / .- .-. . / --- .--. .- --.- ..- . .-.-.- / .-- .... --- / -.- -. --- .-- ... ..--..
posted by Ned G at 9:54 AM on August 15, 2014
posted by Ned G at 9:54 AM on August 15, 2014
.... . .-.. .-.. .. - -- .. --. .... - . ...- . -. .... . .-.. .--.
posted by Mitheral at 9:57 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 9:57 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
.. - .----. ... / -.. . ..-. .. -. .. - . .-.. -.-- / .... . .-.. .--. .. -. --. / --- ..- - / - .... . / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - --- .-. / .. .----. -- / ..- ... .. -. --.
posted by Ned G at 9:59 AM on August 15, 2014
posted by Ned G at 9:59 AM on August 15, 2014
-.- . . .--. / .. -. / -- .. -. -.. / - .... .- - / .-.. --- - ... / --- ..-. / -.-. .-. .- .-- .-.. . .-. ... / .- -. -.. / .. -. -.. . -..- . .-. ... / ..- ... . / .-.. -.-- -. -..- .-.-.- / -. --- .-- / - .... --- ... . / .-. --- -... --- - ... / -.-. .- -. / .-.. --- --. / .. -. / .- -. -.. / ... - .- .-. - / .--. --- ... - .. -. --. .-.-.-
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:04 AM on August 15, 2014
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:04 AM on August 15, 2014
.- -- / ..-. ..- .-. .. --- ..- ... / -.-- --- ..- / -.-. .- -. -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . / -... -.-- / .--- ..- ... - / .--. .- ... - .. -. --. / .. - / .. -. - --- / --. --- --- --. .-.. . / ... - --- .--.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:04 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Rock Steady at 10:04 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
.. ..-. / .-- . / .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. .- ...- --- .-. .. - . / - .... . / ... .- -- . / -.-. --- -- -- . -. - / - .... . -. / -. --- -. / -- --- .-. ... . .-. ... / .-- .. .-.. .-.. / -... . / -.-. ..- .-. .. --- ..- ... / .- -... --- ..- - / .-- .... .- - / .-- .- ... / ... .- .. -.. / .- -. -.. / .-- .. .-.. .-.. / ... - .- .-. - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - .. -. --.
posted by Wordshore at 10:08 AM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by Wordshore at 10:08 AM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
( ,&&&.
) .,.&&
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) ,'-'.
( ( ,, _.__|/ /|
) /\ -((------((_|___/ |
( // | (`' (( `'--|
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(_;-// | \ \-'.\ <>
( `.__ _ ___,') <>
`'(_ )_)(_)_)'
smoke_signal.jpgposted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 10:09 AM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
.--- ..- -- .--. . -.. / - .... . / --. ..- -. / .. -. / . -..- .--. . -.-. - .. -. --. / .--- / - --- / -... . / - .- -.- . -. / -... . ..-. --- .-. . / .. / -.-. --- ..- .-.. -.. / .--. --- ... - .-.-.- / -.. --- . ... / - .... .- - / -- . .- -. / .. / .-.. --- ... - / - .... . / --. .- -- . ..--..
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:14 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:14 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
− • • − • − • • − • • / − • • − − • / • • • • • / • • − • • • − − • / − • • − − •
posted by cavalier at 10:14 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by cavalier at 10:14 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
.... .. / .. / .- -- / .- / .-. --- -... --- - / ...- .. ... .. - .. -. --. / ..-. .-. --- -- / - .... . / -.-- . .- .-. / ..--- ----- ...-- ----. / -.-. .- -. / .. / -... --- .-. .-. --- .-- / ..-. .. ...- . / -.. --- .-.. .-.. .- .-. ... / - -..-
posted by sylvanshine at 10:17 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by sylvanshine at 10:17 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
... - --- .--. / ... - --- .--.
posted by sylvanshine at 10:21 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by sylvanshine at 10:21 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
I just pushed out a change that will set cookies to expire in 15 years instead of 30.
I bet you cashmoney I just rolled out the exact same line of code (dateAdd FTW!) to our CF environment as a result of this thread.
Who knew...
posted by garius at 10:23 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
I bet you cashmoney I just rolled out the exact same line of code (dateAdd FTW!) to our CF environment as a result of this thread.
Who knew...
posted by garius at 10:23 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
I have to set the date on my computer to 25 years in the future because of reasons. Now I can't use metafilter because my cookies are expired. Please advise.
posted by double block and bleed at 10:24 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by double block and bleed at 10:24 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
I also can't load the site at all on my Commodore VIC-20.
posted by double block and bleed at 10:26 AM on August 15, 2014
posted by double block and bleed at 10:26 AM on August 15, 2014
I have flagged certain comments in this thread in a certain way so as to encode a semaphore message visible only to the mods.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:35 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Rock Steady at 10:35 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
You people inserting slashes in your morse code are really missing the point.
posted by ryanrs at 10:38 AM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 10:38 AM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
For everyone mocking Lynx as outdated, I feel the need to defend it by noting it is still actively developed, and the last stable release was less than six months ago. Also, it is a great browser option for mobile. I ssh into my home machine from my phone. It's fast, uses almost no data, and readability is improved for lots of sites. I find it especially useful for reading long threads.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 11:10 AM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by [expletive deleted] at 11:10 AM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
Bug report: every 15 years metafilter logs me out automatically.
posted by aubilenon at 11:40 AM on August 15, 2014 [19 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 11:40 AM on August 15, 2014 [19 favorites]
Lynx is OK, though the fact that it still has this bug doesn't speak that well of its active development (this bug appears to have been fixed in Mozilla over 10 years ago). Better start emailing the admins of all the other web sites!
(In 1994 I patched my copy of Lynx because it had a hardcoded limit on HTML line length and it crashed on a page I found that used CR instead of LF as a line delimiter. I changed
posted by jjwiseman at 11:58 AM on August 15, 2014
(In 1994 I patched my copy of Lynx because it had a hardcoded limit on HTML line length and it crashed on a page I found that used CR instead of LF as a line delimiter. I changed
char line[512] to char line[128*1024] and it worked!)posted by jjwiseman at 11:58 AM on August 15, 2014
Lynx is also a good browser for people using screen readers.
posted by Mitheral at 12:06 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 12:06 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
Lynx is in many ways the perfect browser for MeFi so it makes me happy that people are using it. I bet it handles long threads way, way better than any of the browsers on my friggin phone, for instance...
posted by en forme de poire at 12:19 PM on August 15, 2014
posted by en forme de poire at 12:19 PM on August 15, 2014
Hmm, I'm trying it now, told it to Always accept metafilter cookies, and it's hanging on
Logging in... Click here if you aren't automatically redirected.
If I follow the link it takes me through to the home page but not logged in.
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:34 PM on August 15, 2014
Logging in... Click here if you aren't automatically redirected.
If I follow the link it takes me through to the home page but not logged in.
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:34 PM on August 15, 2014
I had to refresh the page after logging in.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 12:40 PM on August 15, 2014
posted by [expletive deleted] at 12:40 PM on August 15, 2014
As simple as that. Thanx!
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:43 PM on August 15, 2014
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:43 PM on August 15, 2014
That this request prompted a change to the site is pretty awesome. Above and beyond the call of duty, pb. Thanks!
More than 50% of my metafilter browsing happens in elinks. I flush cookies every session anyway, so never would have noticed the problem, if indeed it affects 64 bit versions of the browser. But, I like knowing that I could remain logged in if I wanted to, and that the mods don't instantly dismiss screwball requests from the browser hinterlands even though they probably should.
And I can understand the impulse to add obvious breaks. It's tough to visually determine whether there are 3 or 7 spaces between elements (or perhaps something more like 9 or 21 you want to try for some visual-Farnsworth.) It's even hard for those of us who are reasonably proficient at copying code by ear and who are also using a text browser in a terminal with a monospace font.
posted by eotvos at 12:54 PM on August 15, 2014
More than 50% of my metafilter browsing happens in elinks. I flush cookies every session anyway, so never would have noticed the problem, if indeed it affects 64 bit versions of the browser. But, I like knowing that I could remain logged in if I wanted to, and that the mods don't instantly dismiss screwball requests from the browser hinterlands even though they probably should.
You people inserting slashes in your morse code are really missing the point.I see your point. But, it's not like using 4 ascii characters (space, period, dash, slash) is fundamentally missing the point that much more dramatically than using 3 ascii characters.
And I can understand the impulse to add obvious breaks. It's tough to visually determine whether there are 3 or 7 spaces between elements (or perhaps something more like 9 or 21 you want to try for some visual-Farnsworth.) It's even hard for those of us who are reasonably proficient at copying code by ear and who are also using a text browser in a terminal with a monospace font.
posted by eotvos at 12:54 PM on August 15, 2014
Lynx is also a good browser for people using screen readers.
Yep. This is why I use it. I develop to standards (my sites use valid HTML and CSS and function without javascript enabled), but I also make sure my sites are as accessible as possible.
I took a class from a guy who bragged he had the lightest Apple laptop in existence. It was a standard laptop without the screen. Didn't exist. Gone. (Actually custom built by Apple, so was never there.)
He was one of the guys who helped develop "Voice Over" and was completely blind.
He made us use an aural browser and navigate sites. It was impossible to do without laughing at most sites. Most sites went something like:
"Corporate Image Small Logo JPEG. 'Our Corporation's logo!' Banner Small JPEG. 'Random banner: A man and a puppy play in a file of grass on a nice spring day.' Navigation: Bullet About Bullet Contact Bullet FAQ Bullet Mission Our corporate beliefs: Ordered list. List Item One Red. List item two blue…" etc. Then they filly get to get to the information they want.
What was the worst was when people used a graphic as a bullet, then put "bullet" in the alt tag.
You would get: Unordered list: Bullet List item Bullet Jpeg 'A graphic of a bullet' Red. Bullet List item Bullet Jpeg 'A graphic of a bullet' Blue. Etc.
You're not trying to reconstruct the site to reproduce the sighted experience for the blind. They don't care you have a visually appealing logo or a field with a puppy in it. They just want the information.
Use this page for example. The logos probably shouldn't say anything in the alt tag. alt=" " is probably a better approach than alt="MetaTalk"
Anyway, if it looks good in lynx, chances are it's going to be accessible as well, so I test everything there. You sometimes see sites where they actually put the navigational elements at the bottom, but use CSS to move them to the top. Bad bad bad. If you don't know why, then fire up a site that does this in lynx. See how annoying it is when you can see. Now imagine having to listen to a site just to get to the elements you need to get around.
This is probably why we allow blind people to have gun permits in Iowa.
posted by cjorgensen at 1:15 PM on August 15, 2014 [19 favorites]
Yep. This is why I use it. I develop to standards (my sites use valid HTML and CSS and function without javascript enabled), but I also make sure my sites are as accessible as possible.
I took a class from a guy who bragged he had the lightest Apple laptop in existence. It was a standard laptop without the screen. Didn't exist. Gone. (Actually custom built by Apple, so was never there.)
He was one of the guys who helped develop "Voice Over" and was completely blind.
He made us use an aural browser and navigate sites. It was impossible to do without laughing at most sites. Most sites went something like:
- Corporate logo
- Random unimportant banner
- Navigation: • About • Contact • FAQ • Mission
- Our corporate beliefs:
- Red
- Blue
- Yello
- Green
"Corporate Image Small Logo JPEG. 'Our Corporation's logo!' Banner Small JPEG. 'Random banner: A man and a puppy play in a file of grass on a nice spring day.' Navigation: Bullet About Bullet Contact Bullet FAQ Bullet Mission Our corporate beliefs: Ordered list. List Item One Red. List item two blue…" etc. Then they filly get to get to the information they want.
What was the worst was when people used a graphic as a bullet, then put "bullet" in the alt tag.
You would get: Unordered list: Bullet List item Bullet Jpeg 'A graphic of a bullet' Red. Bullet List item Bullet Jpeg 'A graphic of a bullet' Blue. Etc.
You're not trying to reconstruct the site to reproduce the sighted experience for the blind. They don't care you have a visually appealing logo or a field with a puppy in it. They just want the information.
Use this page for example. The logos probably shouldn't say anything in the alt tag. alt=" " is probably a better approach than alt="MetaTalk"
Anyway, if it looks good in lynx, chances are it's going to be accessible as well, so I test everything there. You sometimes see sites where they actually put the navigational elements at the bottom, but use CSS to move them to the top. Bad bad bad. If you don't know why, then fire up a site that does this in lynx. See how annoying it is when you can see. Now imagine having to listen to a site just to get to the elements you need to get around.
This is probably why we allow blind people to have gun permits in Iowa.
posted by cjorgensen at 1:15 PM on August 15, 2014 [19 favorites]
cjorgensen: " The logos probably shouldn't say anything in the alt tag. alt=" " is probably a better approach than alt="MetaTalk" "
see also, the difference between alt vs. title.
posted by boo_radley at 1:45 PM on August 15, 2014
And this thread is why I love Metafilter.
posted by Pendragon at 2:41 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Pendragon at 2:41 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
I bet it handles long threads way, way better than any of the browsers on my friggin phone, for instance...
Reading long threads on my phone was actually why I started using Lynx for Metafilter. JuiceSSH works great with Lynx and Metafilter. And now I can comment too!
posted by [expletive deleted] at 2:43 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Reading long threads on my phone was actually why I started using Lynx for Metafilter. JuiceSSH works great with Lynx and Metafilter. And now I can comment too!
posted by [expletive deleted] at 2:43 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
01001001 00100000 00111100 00110011 00100000 01001101 01100101 01110100 01100001 01000110 01101001 01101100 01110100 01100101 01110010
posted by Wordshore at 3:26 PM on August 15, 2014
posted by Wordshore at 3:26 PM on August 15, 2014
I just pushed out a change that will set cookies to expire in 15 years instead of 30.
From a privacy best-practice perspective, I'd recommend a much shorter expiry date and renew it regularly. There's no real reason for you guys to leave around "used metafilter.com as user X twelve years ago" traces on people's computers.
(Not that you're big enough to risk having the EU hit you over the head with article 5 (3) of directive 2002/58/EC, but just to be nice...)
posted by effbot at 3:39 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
From a privacy best-practice perspective, I'd recommend a much shorter expiry date and renew it regularly. There's no real reason for you guys to leave around "used metafilter.com as user X twelve years ago" traces on people's computers.
(Not that you're big enough to risk having the EU hit you over the head with article 5 (3) of directive 2002/58/EC, but just to be nice...)
posted by effbot at 3:39 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
see also, the difference between alt vs. title.
Yeah, I had a hard time encapsulating the above into the few words I used. I could write about standards and UX design all day. I would still suggest you shouldn't use actual alt tags for incidental images. You should use an empty descriptor. Worst than either is no tag at all. Nothing forces the use of an alt tag, but if you don't you're kind of a jerk.
My favorite use of the title tag is XKCD. Hover over any comic and you get insight to the comic.
One of the weird things with "best practices," accessibility, SEO, and pretty much anything with the internet…you get any three designers/admins in a room and you'll have nine opinions.
posted by cjorgensen at 4:05 PM on August 15, 2014
Yeah, I had a hard time encapsulating the above into the few words I used. I could write about standards and UX design all day. I would still suggest you shouldn't use actual alt tags for incidental images. You should use an empty descriptor. Worst than either is no tag at all. Nothing forces the use of an alt tag, but if you don't you're kind of a jerk.
My favorite use of the title tag is XKCD. Hover over any comic and you get insight to the comic.
One of the weird things with "best practices," accessibility, SEO, and pretty much anything with the internet…you get any three designers/admins in a room and you'll have nine opinions.
posted by cjorgensen at 4:05 PM on August 15, 2014
cjorgensen: "You would get: Unordered list: Bullet List item Bullet Jpeg 'A graphic of a bullet' Red. Bullet List item Bullet Jpeg 'A graphic of a bullet' Blue. Etc."
I supported blind users running whatever the browser was for PROFS and later OfficeVision/VM. Seeing as the organisations office staff was using an essentially text client the home page didn't feature any graphics. However it did feature the organization's acronym spelled out in letters composed of letters. EG:
Can you imagine the frustration they put up with before that? It was a real eye opener for me at the time about programming for disabilities. Someone was really proud of having generated an ASCII Art corporate logo and yet I had a couple users who would have walked across broken glass to avoid it. I was like a god to those users for getting it fixed.
posted by Mitheral at 4:23 PM on August 15, 2014 [13 favorites]
I supported blind users running whatever the browser was for PROFS and later OfficeVision/VM. Seeing as the organisations office staff was using an essentially text client the home page didn't feature any graphics. However it did feature the organization's acronym spelled out in letters composed of letters. EG:
MM MM EEEEEEEEE TTTTTTTTTTTT A MMMM MMMM EEEEEEEEE TTTTTTTTTTTT AAA MM MM MM MM EE TT AA AA MM MM MM MM EEE TT AA AA MM MMM MM EEEEE TT AA AA MM M MM EEE TT AAAAAAAAAAA MM MM EE TT AAAAAAAAAAAAA MM MM EEEEEEEEE TT AA AA MM MM EEEEEEEEE TT AA AAexcept with thicker curvy characters like Gs, Ss, Qs. Every time the users switched pages they were subjected to "Capital M" "Capital M" "Space" "Capital M" "Capital M" "Space" "Capital E" "Capital E" "Capital E" "Capital E" etc. and they'd have to listen to the whole thing before getting to the information they needed. They'd been putting up with it for over a year until I happened to be in the users office on another matter when they were using the web browser. I can't remember what the solution we came up with to suppress the logo for screen readers (some font setting I think that allowed us to get the screen reader to ignore those characters) .
Can you imagine the frustration they put up with before that? It was a real eye opener for me at the time about programming for disabilities. Someone was really proud of having generated an ASCII Art corporate logo and yet I had a couple users who would have walked across broken glass to avoid it. I was like a god to those users for getting it fixed.
posted by Mitheral at 4:23 PM on August 15, 2014 [13 favorites]
Yeah, I had one of the earliest pages on the internet. Sometime back around 1886. It was early enough that I still believe I can claim I had the first novel length fiction written with the intent of publishing it online (technically it predated www and sat in a umich archive), but I updated it to HTML fairly early. I do remember a lot of other projects after mine that made claim to this, and I kept thinking, "I did that a year ago." Anyway, I had one of the first personal web pages at my University. I was active in a USENET group prior to this, so when the web hit I remember mailing a picture of myself to a guy in England so he could scan it and put it on a bio webpage for the people involved in the alt group. (You couldn't do attachments of any reasonable size and I had no access to a color scanner.)
Anyway, I put up a lot of fiction back then, and I would get an email a day from someone thanking me nearly every day. I thought it was awesome. Fairly early on I started getting email from blind people with formatting suggestions and asking me if I had more. As an undergraduate I thought this was amazing. Unfortunately, I never caught on or got the internet's eye, but I still remember the lessons. I still have an entire directory full of people thanking me for taking the time to make my shit accessible. This is still a concern of mine, and something I feel horrible when I violate.
It's generally easy to do.
p.s. in you example you could have applied a style to the block of text that hid it to aural browsers.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:50 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
Anyway, I put up a lot of fiction back then, and I would get an email a day from someone thanking me nearly every day. I thought it was awesome. Fairly early on I started getting email from blind people with formatting suggestions and asking me if I had more. As an undergraduate I thought this was amazing. Unfortunately, I never caught on or got the internet's eye, but I still remember the lessons. I still have an entire directory full of people thanking me for taking the time to make my shit accessible. This is still a concern of mine, and something I feel horrible when I violate.
It's generally easy to do.
p.s. in you example you could have applied a style to the block of text that hid it to aural browsers.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:50 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
I was active in a USENET group prior to this, so when the web hit I remember mailing a picture of myself to a guy in England so he could scan it and put it on a bio webpage for the people involved in the alt group.
Ah, yes. I meant to get back to you about that; sorry, it has been a while. Couldn't do the picture in the end; some guy from Portland had wedged a cat in the scanner so it was out of operation.
Sorry, old bean.
posted by Wordshore at 5:57 PM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
Ah, yes. I meant to get back to you about that; sorry, it has been a while. Couldn't do the picture in the end; some guy from Portland had wedged a cat in the scanner so it was out of operation.
Sorry, old bean.
posted by Wordshore at 5:57 PM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
There's no real reason for you guys to leave around "used metafilter.com as user X twelve years ago" traces on people's computers.
It helps with an alibi. We're always the first suspects.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 7:37 PM on August 15, 2014
It helps with an alibi. We're always the first suspects.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 7:37 PM on August 15, 2014
Well, we are now.
posted by jeffamaphone at 3:02 PM on August 16, 2014
posted by jeffamaphone at 3:02 PM on August 16, 2014
I'm kind of wanting to write an nntp interface for Metafilter as a Greasemonkey script now.
posted by ambrosen at 4:13 PM on August 16, 2014
posted by ambrosen at 4:13 PM on August 16, 2014
Happy 15th!
posted by oceanjesse at 5:04 PM on August 16, 2014
posted by oceanjesse at 5:04 PM on August 16, 2014
OK. You piqued my interest, so I installed Lynx on my Mac. I'm using it to post this. I haven't used it in this decade or the last. I will admit that it does indeed load longboat posts wicked fast.
posted by double block and bleed at 5:33 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by double block and bleed at 5:33 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, since all the cool kids are doing it, I can verify that lynx for Cygwin on Win7-64bit works okay too.
posted by benito.strauss at 5:44 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by benito.strauss at 5:44 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
For those on Mac OS wanting to join the cool kids, but who wish to avoid the complexities of compilation etc., there is a Termlet for Lynx called Lynxlet that makes running Lynx nice and easy.
As for how easy you find it to use, you're on your own. (I like it, but I remember using Lynx on a VT320, so you may want to discount my opinion.)
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 2:38 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
As for how easy you find it to use, you're on your own. (I like it, but I remember using Lynx on a VT320, so you may want to discount my opinion.)
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 2:38 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Is this relevant?
How'd you know that's my ringtone?
posted by [expletive deleted] at 2:53 PM on August 17, 2014
How'd you know that's my ringtone?
posted by [expletive deleted] at 2:53 PM on August 17, 2014
This is ridiculous. You should all be using a modern browser, like w3m.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:34 AM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:34 AM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]
I browse mefi on my WebTV.
I can get internet! On my TV! It's crazy!
posted by maqsarian at 3:21 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]
I can get internet! On my TV! It's crazy!
posted by maqsarian at 3:21 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]
Oh god w3m is amazing, cortex! How did I not know about this?!
posted by en forme de poire at 4:12 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by en forme de poire at 4:12 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
Hey pb, just out of curiosity, why are posts and comments on the Blue, but not other subsites, separated by HRs?
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:06 PM on August 20, 2014
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:06 PM on August 20, 2014
I threw the HRs in years ago on www for Lynx only. I don't think it was officially sanctioned by anyone and we try not to include a bunch of browser-specific hacks like that these days.
posted by pb (staff) at 9:38 PM on August 20, 2014
posted by pb (staff) at 9:38 PM on August 20, 2014
Oh, cool. Actually for Lynx specifically? That's awesome. Thanks again for everything. Lynx and MeFi are two of my favorite things and posting this from a terminal makes me so happy. I'm looking forward to seeing Lynx next time browser stats go up.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:35 PM on August 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:35 PM on August 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
The OP has it correct in the tags: this is a symptom of the Year 2038 problem.
mathowie is aware of this bug.
posted by unliteral at 8:03 PM on August 26, 2014
mathowie is aware of this bug.
posted by unliteral at 8:03 PM on August 26, 2014
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posted by pb (staff) at 6:18 PM on August 14, 2014