What is the reason, again?

January 29, 2014 11:18 PM

What is the difference between this and this?

The first is a broken-down ask and answer from a stripper. The second is an almost-long-form about a guy who plays Donkey Kong.

"This is a random imgur AMA of unknown provenance? Is there any particular reason this should be a Mefi post, with a sort of LET'S-ALL-FIGHT pull quote? Maybe there's another way to post this if it's something important. -- taz"

It's not a direct link to an AMA, although any non-autobiographical article could be considered an AMA; are we now supposed to provide provenance documentation with articles?; I did not get a 'LETS-ALL-FIGHT'-vibe from the title; if something needs to be important to be considered important to post, please explain the importance of this.

The last link, inside, is the imgur, not the main post.

(This is not a LETS-ALL-FIGHT post, I'm quite serious).

posted by efalk to MetaFilter-Related at 11:18 PM (176 comments total)

Oh, look, I found the difference:

The first is a broken-down ask and answer from a stripper. The second is an almost-long-form about a guy who plays Donkey Kong.
posted by kagredon at 11:23 PM on January 29, 2014 [19 favorites]

also what taz said

This post was deleted for the following reason: This is a random imgur AMA of unknown provenance? Is there any particular reason this should be a Mefi post, with a sort of LET'S-ALL-FIGHT pull quote? Maybe there's another way to post this if it's something important. -- taz
posted by philip-random at 11:36 PM on January 29, 2014 [1 favorite]

Maybe you could frame it more as a product of one writer's work about her time being a stripper. Like, "Sarah had been an exotic dancer for several years when she realized people had the same questions to ask her about it, over and over. So she wrote a FAQ." Then its a project someone did that is cool rather than just this list of stuff with no context.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 11:39 PM on January 29, 2014 [3 favorites]

It wasn't my post. Then its a project someone did that is cool rather than just this list of stuff with no context.
posted by efalk at 11:43 PM on January 29, 2014 [1 favorite]

People are going to have lots of thoughts and ideas that they want to share with the community wrt strippers, stripping, strip clubs and sex a and money interacting that they aren't going to have about cats taking selfies. A different frame might have helped.

And if its not your post what are we trying to accomplish here? The mod note already says there might be a better way to frame it, so the poster knows they can do that.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 11:56 PM on January 29, 2014 [1 favorite]

Comparing the post you favor against posts you disfavor isn't helpful. It just confuses the issue and provides more points of contention. And if that's how you're thinking about this ("why do these posts I don't like stand while this post I like didn't?") then it's not a helpful way for you to think about it because that's specific to you and the Kong and cats posts are really nothing like the deleted stripper post.

So taz pretty much explained what she thought didn't quite work in the stripper post.

Personally, my sense is that the whole of it doomed it, between the provocative title and the big list and the iffy site and the iffy content, it was something that just didn't cut it. Maybe changing some of those things would help. If the poster, or you, is keen on the link being posted, the mods are outspoken about being available for feedback to posters about what might help or hurt a prospective post. So you or the poster could ask.

But, again, speaking as a mere member, I'd be curious to read what the link promises, but that post, as it was made, doesn't look promising to me for that information. And the thread, if the post stood, also in my opinion is likely to be contentious. So I can see why it was deleted.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:12 AM on January 30, 2014 [13 favorites]

One post pulled, out of an article where it really wasn't the topic, the one quote to get the Metafilter rage up.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 12:25 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

The questions I would have before posting something like this would be: who is the person posting this and in what way are they a reliable source to make something like a general "Stripper FAQ"? Is this someone who blogs and writes elsewhere and has credibility and any sort of claim to spokesperson status? Or are these just personal observations? I, the reader, have no idea who LittleQueenTrashMouth is. It could just be someone claiming to be a stripper as far as I know. If you, as the poster, have more information on that, it should be included as background in the post.

For something presented as a serious FAQ, I would also ask if the content is thoughtful and enlightening. Are questions like "were strippers mostly friends or bitches to each other?" and "have you, or a co-worker, ever sharted while dancing?" valuable, useful, and, or respectful questions?

I would ask, is there material that is likely start a huge fight on Metafilter ending with lots of mod intervention, Metatalks, people fighting and possibly leaving? So many things seem like they wouldn't happen this way, but they do. So, when the poster is, for one example, talking about "straight women" in the club this way: "They act like fucking idiots after three cocktails; giving their guy friend’s lap dances, groping the dancers because they think it’s somehow okay because they have a vagina, screaming and whooping like morons, and making out with their chick friends to regain the attention of the males in their group. These are all things I think they do to validate themselves because it’s hard for women to give other women the spotlight - even when the other woman are performers and they KNOW THAT," is this valuable and important true information we need to know, and worth a lot of anger and outrage on the site? Is this the sort of thing that should be posted because it's something neat on the internet, because it reveals thoughtful, important, deep thinking about a topic?

I would ask, is my title and/or pull quote representative of the whole link or link(s)?; is it the most important, enlightening, etc., information offered? Because most of the time, people will just react to whatever is featured: the title, the quote, the first paragraph of an article, the OP's editorial comment, and this will drive the whole discussion, even if it is only a tiny part of the whole article or piece.

These are not the only questions I would ask, but these are several that come immediately to mind as pertinent to this post. I don't really understand if this is a valuable link, because I'm not seeing it here. I'm seeing a bunch of ganked images, with a sort of AMA type thing from a completely unknown (to me) person who claims to be a stripper speaking for strippers. I see a lot of stuff that is sort of gross and many things likely to start fights, and I want to know if it's worth it. If it is, then you as the poster who is filtering this for us should let us know why.

If you know more about the person who posted this, or have further background on this that adds context, or if someone who is perhaps known in the community of exotic dancers blogging and commenting online has discussed this or analyzed this, maybe that adds more info that makes it worthwhile and valuable to post. If so, you need to add more links and info and and let us know.
posted by taz (staff) at 12:38 AM on January 30, 2014 [38 favorites]

I posted this link, and I don't mind that it was deleted - it's not my site, and the mods can moderate as they see fit.

But I just wanted to say that the title and pullquote weren't calculated to start a fight. I just tried to choose a quote that would engage people's attention. I honestly have no desire to see anything posted on MetaFilter provoke a fight.

So I don't know, I guess I come from a background where people are a bit more relaxed about things? I see so many controversies boil up here on the site and it always surprises me. But anyway, sorry for the framing misjudgement.

I generally don't care to reframe and repost my deleted content, so if anyone else wants to, feel free.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 1:46 AM on January 30, 2014 [10 favorites]

Taz, I generally agree with what you wrote, but I would note that your standards seem to be "valuable, useful, enlightening", which knocks out a bunch of stuff that is none of these, but is interesting. Value, usefulness, and enlighteningnessfullitude are more the trifecta of AskMe than MeFi proper. That said, I'm not disagreeing with any of your other points, and I think it was a perfectly cromulent deletion.

Snarl Furillo: "And if its not your post what are we trying to accomplish here?"

Giving the poster the benefit of doubt, I'm guessing maybe trying to figure out why it was deleted in order to avoid having one's own posts deleted in the future? I know that's why I *read* threads like this - to gain an understanding of MeFi policy and standards, so I don't run afoul of them. I would assume that that's why a person would *create* a thread like this.
posted by Bugbread at 2:17 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

I read TFA before it was deleted, and found the pull quote to be indeed kind of a weird choice: leaving out the framing question makes it read like an attack on men in general, in what is otherwise a not particularly inflammatory FAQ.
posted by Dr Dracator at 2:22 AM on January 30, 2014

I thought the pullquote neatly summarized the topic of demystifying a fantasy - which is quite representative of the linked content.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 2:28 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

I generally agree with what you wrote, but I would note that your standards seem to be "valuable, useful, enlightening", which knocks out a bunch of stuff that is none of these, but is interesting.

Yes, you're right, this definitely isn't the bar we set for every post, but something we look at for posts that address difficult content, marginalized groups, and specific topics that are historically fraught (such as sexism, racism, gender issues, etc.).
posted by taz (staff) at 2:38 AM on January 30, 2014 [11 favorites]

I read through the questions and learned two things: some men are effectively forced to visit strip clubs (e.g., attending work parties or bachelor parties); at least one stripper didn't realise this was the case, and thought that attendees trying to avoid attention were just being lousy.¹ I think any post that teaches me two things is probably a good one. But the OP took it well, and I got all I wanted to out of the links, so I'm happy.

¹ O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us, etc.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:57 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

taz: "Yes, you're right, this definitely isn't the bar we set for every post, but something we look at for posts that address difficult content, marginalized groups, and specific topics that are historically fraught (such as sexism, racism, gender issues, etc.)."

Ah, good point, then I'm in total agreement.
posted by Bugbread at 3:02 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

The stripper thread did not seem like a good fit for metafilter. Maybe if the text were presented somewhere else, outside of the context of a bunch of pretty much unrelated photos of strippers and men in strip clubs, there might be something there. But as it is, it's just a jokey, seedy mess with nothing to lend it any credibility.
posted by Dysk at 3:18 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

What kind of photos would you expect to accompany textual content describing strippers and stripclubs? I thought they were quite illustrative of what was being discussed.

The text didn't seem jokey to me - the person answering the questions came across as quite thoughtful and serious.

This is not to say these things make it a good fit for MeFi; I'm just curious about your perception of the Q&A.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 3:28 AM on January 30, 2014

I thought the pullquote neatly summarized the topic of demystifying a fantasy - which is quite representative of the linked content.

The quote is about a specific part of the fantasy though - for all we know, straight strippers may be positive or ambivalent about their customers (not likely, but you wouldn't know from the specific question). The fact that queer strippers wouldn't go for their male customers isn't very representative of the general picture, unless of course we think gay strippers are the norm, and male customers are predominantly acting with this fantasy in mind.
posted by Dr Dracator at 3:41 AM on January 30, 2014

I don't know if this is a useful or helpful comparison at all for you, paleyellowwithorange, but the link in zabuni's July "Boomtown" post was really thoughtful and well-written, and completely fascinating to me. This was one of my favorite posts of 2013.
posted by taz (staff) at 3:45 AM on January 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

Thanks taz, I hadn't seen that. I'll definitely read it.

I don't mind if things aren't well-written, though. I'm more interested in what the communicator is trying to communicate - even if they don't meet certain standards.

But I have a history of working with people with brain injuries and intellectual disabilities, and people for whom English is their second language, so perhaps I'm more acclimatized to 'low-grade' language use.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 3:53 AM on January 30, 2014

I don't get why it was all imgur links. Where was the content originally posted (if anywhere)?
posted by rtha at 5:44 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think any post that teaches me two things is probably a good one.

I learned what sharting means.
posted by euphorb at 5:54 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

"I learned what sharting means."

I'm so glad you mentioned that. I sat here trying to think of a joke to make about how I don't like that word, when I realized that my dislike of it might actually qualify as a word aversion for me. Which is great! I've read and participated in numerous discussions about word aversion and hadn't found anything that inspired a strong enough reaction in me that I felt would qualify. But sharting just might.

Of course, there's the whole debate about whether word aversion does or does not, or necessarily does or does not, depend upon meaning even though many people report aversion solely on the basis of sound/appearance. And I think we can probably agree that in this case, at least, any aversion I or anyone else might feel about sharting does have some relation to its meaning. Though arguably not solely so. (I'm agnostic on the general issue.)

And now I hope never to type that word again.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:19 AM on January 30, 2014

for all we know, straight strippers may be positive or ambivalent about their customers (not likely, but you wouldn't know from the specific question)

From the strippers I've known in real life ambivalence was quite the thing, with occasional negativity and occasional positivity.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 6:24 AM on January 30, 2014

I think it was an acceptable post too, but I can definitely imagine a lot of fighting and mod work evolving from it so I can see why they might want a bit more careful framing.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:24 AM on January 30, 2014

And that's double "in real life" I mean, outside the Internet and outside the club.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 6:24 AM on January 30, 2014

Someone just copy the links and make a new post, worded differently. Problem solved!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:38 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

Oh, look, I found the difference:

The actual difference has a lot to do with the demographics here, and dumbass Donkey Kong FPPs are always going to work well. I'm more than fine with that since I don't have to read them, but let's not pretend.

I'm on the fence about the stripper deletion -- with better framing and presentation, that would be a great FPP because the content is interesting. But as presented it's a hard sell and could easily have turned into a clusterfuck for the poor mods.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:42 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

"From the sex workers humans in general I've known in real life, ambivalence is definitely one standard way to engage with the work real life."

"...and dumbass Donkey Kong FPPs are always going to work well. I'm more than fine with that since I don't have to read them, but let's not pretend."

Yes, let's not pretend. Let's not pretend that it was a dumbass Donkey Kong post when it was actually a post to an extensive profile, text and video, of man who's decided to spend a large portion of his waking life in an attempt to be ranked the #1 player of a thirty-three year old arcade video game.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:50 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

I'm currently rewriting and reframing the post. MeMail if you have any links you think should be included, and/or I'll be in chat for the same purpose.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:58 AM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

What's the difference between a stripper of unknown provenance and a man who's decided to spend a large portion of his waking life in an attempt to be ranked the #1 player of a thirty-three year old arcade video game?
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 7:04 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

I don't know, what is the difference between a stripper of unknown provenance and a man who's decided to spend a large portion of his waking life in an attempt to be ranked the #1 player of a thirty-three year old arcade video game?
posted by marienbad at 7:06 AM on January 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

$20, SAIT
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:08 AM on January 30, 2014 [7 favorites]

I'm more interested in the similarities between a stripper of unknown provenance and a man who's decided to spend a large portion of his waking life in an attempt to be ranked the #1 player of a thirty-three year old arcade video game?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:10 AM on January 30, 2014

They both involve joysticks being manipulated.
posted by empath at 7:12 AM on January 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

for all we know, straight strippers may be positive or ambivalent about their customers (not likely, but you wouldn't know from the specific question)

This was actually covered quite a lot ITFL, and in my read, she was saying that it depended on the customer. Politeness and good tipping went pretty far, according to her. She also talked quite a bit about how high-pressure the [sales] floor can feel, and how the women deal with that (including: how they make judgment calls about which customers to engage with, how they relate to the other strippers on the floor, etc).

Honestly, it's a pretty substantive and informative piece, I don't think it's a good deletion. The Boomtown piece was great, and this isn't as well written and is a little coarser -- but this FAQ actually is about work conditions, hazards of the job, and what a club is like from the perspective of someone who works there, it's not especially salacious. Also, as someone who has looked for resources on this subject before, there is a relative dearth of them -- most open/accessible resources are either dated or boil down to personal blogs. This FAQ might very well be some of the "best of the web" when it comes to its specific niche.

By the way, some members here work or have worked in clubs and as strippers, this isn't a bizarre or uncomfortable topic for everybody. I actually have quite a bit of faith that we could move beyond the "stripping? wut!!1!" discussion and talk about the actual substance of the link(s, if fffm is putting a repost). We also *just* had a post about working as a performer in the porn industry that went well.
posted by rue72 at 7:14 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

I was planning to go with "one is a poor substitute for masturbation and the other is a naked woman" but I'll take all of the above.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 7:14 AM on January 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

Someone just copy the links and make a new post, worded differently. Problem solved!

Seriously, this is fine. Framing matters and especially for hot button topics (stripping/sex work is one of those, Donkey Kong playing is not) it's important to be clear that you're not just writing a post but writing a post for MetaFilter.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:15 AM on January 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

New FPP is up.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:45 AM on January 30, 2014 [6 favorites]

This seems like a completely arbitrary deletion; and I can't parse the original deletion reason given.
posted by spaltavian at 8:01 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

taz: " who is the person posting this and in what way are they a reliable source to make something like a general "Stripper FAQ"? Is this someone who blogs and writes elsewhere and has credibility and any sort of claim to spokesperson status? Or are these just personal observations? I, the reader, have no idea who LittleQueenTrashMouth is. It could just be someone claiming to be a stripper as far as I know. If you, as the poster, have more information on that, it should be included as background in the post."

taz: "Yes, you're right, this definitely isn't the bar we set for every post, but something we look at for posts that address difficult content, marginalized groups, and specific topics that are historically fraught (such as sexism, racism, gender issues, etc.)."

I'm glad you narrowed this taz because the first seemed like a very high standard. I'd be surprised if even half the first person stuff posted to the front page could stand up to that kind of scrutiny. Especially the part where we'd be questioning whether users online are who they claim they are.
posted by Mitheral at 8:08 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

The first is a broken-down ask and answer from a stripper. The second is an almost-long-form about a guy who plays Donkey Kong.

They fight crime!
posted by mbrubeck at 8:11 AM on January 30, 2014 [20 favorites]

New FPP is up

And it's on like Donkey Kong!
posted by octobersurprise at 8:19 AM on January 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

This seems like a completely arbitrary deletion; and I can't parse the original deletion reason given.

i think the most important part of the deletion reason is probably the part that goes "with a sort of LET'S-ALL-FIGHT pull quote? Maybe there's another way to post this if it's something important". it's been explained that it was a framing issue and that reposting it with a different framing method would be fine and the reframe and repost has actually taken place now without deletion. the original post consisted of an above-the-fold pull quote which is worded in a way that sounds like a generalization of How All Men Behave, which would have pretty much inevitably led to an argument about How Not All Men Behave Like That - a thing which happens in other threads even where that kind of statement does not comprise the majority of the above-the-fold content (and this isn't confined to just "Men", you could substitute a wide variety of groups of people in for that). the new post avoids that issue as well as providing additional context and information below the fold besides a just a list of the questions that are found within the link. it does not seem arbitrary at all to me.
posted by titus n. owl at 8:42 AM on January 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

So are we all going to fight Donkey Kong, or what? That is the real question here.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 9:06 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

I agree with the deletion, but the reason given wasn't the most helpful way of replying. The problem with the post was framing, a provocative front page quote.

The newer formulation of the post is much better, both for omitting the unnecessary long list and for treating the topic more sensitively.

I'd have suggested an approach like "Needlesly confrontational. A difficult subject needs better treatment. Try rewriting. See the FAQ.", as more useful to the OP.
posted by bonehead at 9:14 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

So are we all going to fight Donkey Kong, or what? That is the real question here.

We all voted, and you were the #1 choice to fight Donkey Kong. Good luck, we're all counting on you.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:20 AM on January 30, 2014 [36 favorites]

(really, we must now investigate the backgrounds of writers and ensure they can claim "spokesperson" status?)

That's not what taz said. taz said it's worth considering your source when making an fpp, especially one on a potentially difficult topic. That's not the same as investigating, and it's not a hard-and-fast rule. It's a guideline for making a better fpp, or at least one that avoids attracting "Who is this and why the fuck should I care?"-type comments right out of the gate. If the author of the link needs a little contextualizing, there's nothing wrong with putting some in.
posted by rtha at 9:25 AM on January 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

Paleyellowwithorange, I think your original post would have been great with just a different pullquote for the title.

I wanted to let you know that because I could tell that a lot of thought did go into your post (I really liked, for instance, the way you broke up the sections and included an index of questions for each one).

It can be tough to get up the nerve to post something on the front page, and easy to take it personally when your post is elected (though you seem cool with that).

Anyway, I didn't want you to get frustrated and stop posting based on this deletion.
posted by misha at 9:28 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

please explain the importance of this.

It's pictures of cats on the internet. They are fundamental to the workings of digital life. Like the four humors, aether and phlogiston in the physical world.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 9:58 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

hot button topics (stripping/sex work is one of those, Donkey Kong playing is not)

oh, yes it is
posted by Flunkie at 10:02 AM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

TEAM WIEBE
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:16 AM on January 30, 2014 [9 favorites]

We all voted, and you were the #1 choice to fight Donkey Kong. Good luck, we're all counting on you.

Man - reamed by my own meme. Shucks.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 10:20 AM on January 30, 2014 [14 favorites]

From Flunkie's Wikipedia link,

Gordon has claimed to have painted Billy Mitchell as a more light-hearted character than his real life persona[25] concerning the movie. Gordon also claims that Billy Mitchell is "so much worse than we painted him out to be," but he chose to only include scenes that were necessary to tell the story, because the movie would have been "darker" had he not played with the facts.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:23 AM on January 30, 2014

We all voted, and you were the #1 choice to fight Donkey Kong. Good luck, we're all counting on you.

Man - reamed by my own meme. Shucks.

Can a typical quidnunc kid, armed only with a hammer be trained to consistently "win" fights with a barrel tossing gorilla? Assume no element of surprise and an unlimited supply of quarters.

posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:27 AM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

I can't parse the original deletion reason given.

You think you’re having trouble. I’m fighting a terrible cold and am only half coherent. I’d already seen the stripper repost so I didn’t click that link assuming it was the same. I read more than half of this discussion thinking the Donkey Kong post was the problem one, and couldn’t for the life of me figure out what was fight inducing about the presentation. I thought maybe it was secret Donkey Kong insider animosity.
posted by bongo_x at 11:25 AM on January 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

Donkey Kong would make a great stripper.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:27 AM on January 30, 2014

The actual difference has a lot to do with the demographics here, and dumbass Donkey Kong FPPs are always going to work well. I'm more than fine with that since I don't have to read them, but let's not pretend.

Okay, look, I found the stripper post interesting, too. I read the whole thing, which is saying something because I really hate reading long text on Imgur (and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone there, which I think factored into it's deletion.) I was honestly just really baffled by the framing of this Meta, which appears to be pointing out two posts that are nothing alike apart from being posted near in time to one another (and both being about humans, I guess?) It reads something like "Why did this SLYT about a corgi stand, but not this NYT about cats, huh?!"

Like, if you really think that the only reason an itemized list of imgur links of unclear origin and a longform article about a guy with a really niche hobby might be judged differently is because Mefi is a bunch of nerdy prudes, then okay I guess, but that's not my read at all.
posted by kagredon at 12:23 PM on January 30, 2014 [6 favorites]

I'm currently rewriting and reframing the post. MeMail if you have any links you think should be included, and/or I'll be in chat for the same purpose.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:58 AM on January 30 [2 favorites +] [!]

is sharting an um area of interest for you
posted by Sebmojo at 12:37 PM on January 30, 2014

But he's already naked.

Then shave him, you kinky planet.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:39 PM on January 30, 2014

But he's already naked.

Nah, pretty sure it's someone wearing an ape suit. No nipples, no genitalia. I always kind of figured it's Nancy Reagan in there, not sure why exactly other than her being first lady at the time, but yeah definitely prime stripper potential.
posted by 0 at 12:46 PM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

I have an opinion.

And perhaps one glorious day you shall post a comment which contains one of them.
posted by ominous_paws at 1:13 PM on January 30, 2014

I fail to see why the pull quote is "let's all fight" material. Are you expecting men to show up and angrily say "nuh uh, I wouldn't have a nasty reaction to finding out the woman grinding on me at the strip club wasn't attracted to me"?

What's the fight you're anticipating?
posted by jayder at 1:40 PM on January 30, 2014

And for what it's worth I think it's a good post and a silly deletion.
posted by jayder at 1:41 PM on January 30, 2014

Really? You can't think of anyone on this site who wouldn't read the pullquote chosen and be all "Nuh-uh! Not all men! That's sexist bullshit!" or something similar?

Also, it's been reposted, as was allowed and suggested, with more context, which I liked.
posted by rtha at 1:52 PM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

What's the fight you're anticipating?

If you skim through the whole FAQ, it's very matter-of-fact and straight ahead advice and info, but the only text that was shown above the fold was one of the most provocative passages from the whole thing, and set it off with a way higher chance of starting a fight about whether or not strippers like dudes at strip clubs, along with all the baggage of whether stripping is empowering or exploitative, etc, etc. It reminded me of interviews I've done where I've answered an hour's worth of questions in a perhaps boring manner, but I say one thing to make the interviewer laugh and it becomes the headline.

The repost of the FAQ is well-written, gives context and other resources, and doesn't start with a bomb blast.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:55 PM on January 30, 2014 [10 favorites]

Nope, I'm not suggesting it at all, but jayder asked specifically what type of fight did we envision happening, and I answered.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:00 PM on January 30, 2014

I'm suggesting that when something is deleted and mods are like hey, better framing could help this have a chance at going better rather than worse, then re-posting with better framing is not the worst thing in the world.
posted by rtha at 2:05 PM on January 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

Well, okay then.
posted by rtha at 2:13 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

You have an opinion too!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:14 PM on January 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

The fact that people still fighting on behalf of the deleted post are not actually interested enough in the subject to comment on the new post with the same link (currently going just fine!) makes me wonder what exactly they're fighting for -- or against.
posted by neroli at 2:21 PM on January 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

Marlon Brando
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:28 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

lalex: "are you suggesting that posts be deleted based on anticipation of the worst possible response to the post?"

We're talking about "deletable but repostable if rewritten", not "eternally deleted". Given that, it seems pretty reasonable to me, especially given MeFi's history of exploding about even really carefully worded posts about gender, sex, I/P, race, portobello mushrooms, circumcision, etc. In the case of a poorly framed post on one of these topics, the most likely response is the worst possible response.
posted by Bugbread at 2:30 PM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

I don't see anyone fighting, neroli, I see lalex and rtha having an intelligent discussion like grown ups, making points that are perfectly intelligible.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 2:32 PM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

Given that mathowie has also weighed in on how framing matters, maybe you shouldn't be snarking about how one mod and only one is the "trouble" here.
posted by rtha at 2:33 PM on January 30, 2014 [10 favorites]

You have the badge!
posted by the quidnunc kid at 2:34 PM on January 30, 2014

Hee hee!
posted by the quidnunc kid at 2:43 PM on January 30, 2014

really, we must now investigate the backgrounds of writers

As others pointed out, this is not what taz said. The actual request was, "If you, as the poster, have more information on that, it should be included as background in the post."

I thought it was clear that this was an issue for this particular post because it was a collection of anonymous/pseudonymous uploads to imgur.com. If you're linking to a more typical blog or news site, readers usually have a number of easy ways to find out more about the author/publisher/context on their own, and this issue would never come up.

I took taz's comment to be a list of framing issues "pertinent to this post," not a brand new set of policy hoops for all FPPs to jump through.
posted by mbrubeck at 2:44 PM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

What is the difference between this and this?

Tough one. In both, there's a bouncer trying to keep a swarthy guy in overalls off the poles and away from Princess. The first link has fewer flaming barrels, maybe?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:58 PM on January 30, 2014 [6 favorites]

The fact that people still fighting on behalf of the deleted post are not actually interested enough in the subject to comment on the new post with the same link (currently going just fine!) makes me wonder what exactly they're fighting for -- or against.

The fact that half the comments in the repost are about hating the web site and it’s format and ignoring the content confirms that I am on MetaFilter.
posted by bongo_x at 3:06 PM on January 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

neroli: "The fact that people still fighting on behalf of the deleted post are not actually interested enough in the subject to comment on the new post with the same link (currently going just fine!) makes me wonder what exactly they're fighting for -- or against."

They are interested in the general case of deletions rather than the specific case of the deleted post.
posted by Mitheral at 3:10 PM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

and I already know I won't post it on taz's shift.

Oh for God's sake, not this again. (Picking on taz)
posted by Melismata at 3:24 PM on January 30, 2014 [10 favorites]

maybe you shouldn't be snarking about how one mod and only one is the "trouble" here.

I would have deleted it also. The repost is much better and the thread, last I checked, is going well.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:27 PM on January 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

Ditto. The post was not super well-framed, wasn't a big deal, taz was polite about it, we supported a repost with better framing, a repost happened and is going well. The system works basically exactly as intended.

But, hey, the problem is taz somehow because seriously I don't even fucking know anymore. Christ.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:39 PM on January 30, 2014 [15 favorites]

Well, as long as you avoid posting on taz's shift, or jessamyn's, or cortex's, or lobstermitten's, or goodnewsfortheinsane's, or restless_nomad's, or mathowie's, you're good!
posted by Bugbread at 3:42 PM on January 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

I already know I won't post it on taz's shift.

As a demi-lurker, one of the many things that is quietly impressive about MetaFilter (and probably a contributor to the site's success as the thing it is) is a pretty high level of consistency regarding moderation practices, policies and understandings.
posted by PMdixon at 3:43 PM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

Don't worry taz, I promise to make some crazy posts just for your shift!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:50 PM on January 30, 2014 [13 favorites]

Given that mathowie has also weighed in on how framing matters, maybe you shouldn't be snarking about how one mod and only one is the "trouble" here.

rtha, I get where you are coming from and agree with the sentiment, but could you please not paraphrase what you think someone is saying and then also use quotation marks when you do it? It makes users seem like they have said something they haven't.

Not everyone agrees with every mod (she wrote, in the understatement of the century), and lalex if you feel like you don't want to post it when taz is moderating, that's your choice. I don't think taz was heavy-handed with the deletion, though, and think another mod would have done the same thing (though maybe with a differently-worded deletion reason that would have set better with you personally?).

I agree with reframing the post, FWIW. Here's why I personally think this statement, "Men have very nasty reactions to finding out the women they are paying to arouse them would 100% never be aroused by them" is not the best starting point:

1. Assumes all men who go to strip clubs are the same. Same reasons for being there, same (unrealistic) expectations, same reactions (and the nasty part suggests the reactions involve violence or harassment).
2. Assumes all strippers are the same. Any time you put 100% in a statement of opinion, even educated or informed opinion, you weaken your case, because there are always outliers. Once you deny even that possibility, you are setting yourself up as dogmatic and intractable, which makes your observations suspect.

I liked that this woman made a point of reassessing her views once she realized that some men were pressured into going into strip clubs in the first place. I think the pullquote would have had the effect of directing the commenters' focus way too much toward that one specific instance where she comes across as absolutist, to the point of missing the forest for the trees in the FPP.

This is what happened in the recent post that started out with an anecdote about women in gay bars, though it did get sorted out and become a very interesting thread. People got heated up over that specific anecdote. Thankfully, that focus developed into a thread about marginalization and intersectionality, but it could just as easily gone over the edge into misogynistic and/or homophobic territory.
posted by misha at 4:39 PM on January 30, 2014

I did use "trouble" with the quotes in a somewhat idiosyncratic fashion, because I wasn't sure how lalex themself would put it and I wanted a shorthand. If that's the source of the confusion over whether or not I paraphrased lalex inaccurately, I apologize.

But lalex was quite clear in saying they thought taz made a bad deletion and that other mods would not be so quick or at all. And I thought that the deletion reason had been pretty thoroughly backed up and affirmed by Matt.
posted by rtha at 4:47 PM on January 30, 2014

Here's why I personally think this statement, "Men have very nasty reactions to finding out the women they are paying to arouse them would 100% never be aroused by them" is not the best starting point:

1. Assumes all men who go to strip clubs are the same. Same reasons for being there, same (unrealistic) expectations, same reactions (and the nasty part suggests the reactions involve violence or harassment).
2. Assumes all strippers are the same.

[I agree, and] the reason why I think the current framing is better, is because the original pull-quote was oriented toward the customer's POV -- but the actual link, and therefore likely an on-topic discussion of that link, is specifically and explicitly not about the customer's POV but the stripper's.

To be honest, I hadn't considered it before, but maybe discussion generally interacts better with the link when the FPP is framed oriented toward the same POV that the link is written from?

*OMG OVERTHINKING THIS I KNOW. I should put together a FPP of how to put together a FPP -- it would be my first FPP altogether.
posted by rue72 at 4:57 PM on January 30, 2014

Post from the POV of kittens!
posted by rtha at 5:04 PM on January 30, 2014

> ... I am thinking about putting together an interesting post on a topic that could be considered slightly controversial, and I already know I won't post it on taz's shift.

That's one option. You could also run one last check on your post before putting it up to see that it fairly presents the topic and doesn't lead with a sentence that's more likely to cause GRAR.

I'm sure I've read many times here that subjects that are likely to be controversial are held to a higher standard of even-handedness and dispassion; your knowing that the topic of your post could be considered slightly controversial gives you a heads-up and lets you create your post keeping that guideline in mind. I look forward to it.
posted by benito.strauss at 6:29 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Mods: I'm so sorry to have inadvertently caused all this. You know I've got good intentions, but often poor execution strategies. As I've told you privately a number of times, I think you all do a wonderful job, every one of you. While I may not always agree with your individual or collective moderation stances here, I fully support every action you decide to take on MetaFilter. Best five dollars I ever spent. FWIW.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 7:08 PM on January 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

No problem, it's just a big community discussion.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:10 PM on January 30, 2014

At least taz was polite about it. Some of the newer mods need a little work developing their bedside manner.
posted by KokuRyu at 7:12 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

^ eh??

We're not in the same camp at all, I have no prob at all with any of the folk who moderate our matters.
posted by lakersfan1222 at 7:24 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Some of the newer mods need a little work developing their bedside manner.

What
posted by Melismata at 7:27 PM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

Yeah seriously, WTF. How do you get mods to appear at your bedside?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:27 PM on January 30, 2014 [7 favorites]

I assumed KokuRyu was making a joke.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 7:28 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Some of the newer mods need a little work developing their bedside manner.

If this is a joke I'm maybe not understanding it.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:28 PM on January 30, 2014

A recent post I created was deleted (for good reason, I will admit). However, at first, the mod appeared in the thread, asking a bunch of questions about the post. There was no staff "mark" or badge, and I was unaware this user was a mod. And the deletion reason, while to the point, was a little sharper than it needed to be I thought. Taken altogether, it was confusing.

I know that as a commenter I am not always the warmest, fuzziest guy, but in terms of creating posts in the 7 or so years I have been on MetaFilter I do try to make a lot of effort (while realizing that not all posts are always going to work) in good faith, so the interaction rubbed me the wrong way. And it's not the first time with a "new" mod.
posted by KokuRyu at 7:29 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

So, let's see if I have this translation right: I was a schmuck, but the new mod did not address my schmuckdom exactly the way I wanted them to, so therefore he/she is a schmuck. Is that right?
posted by Melismata at 7:34 PM on January 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

Some of the newer mods need a little work developing their bedside manner.

This is why I can't even be a mod, or have any power over anyone ever, because my deletion reasons would be to the effect of: I AM GOING TO DELETE YOUR POST YES IT WILL HURT OF COURSE IT WILL HURT IT WILL HURT SO MUCH BECAUSE YOUR POST IS BAD AND YOUR SHOULD FEEL BAD ABOUT IT.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:35 PM on January 30, 2014 [7 favorites]

At least taz was polite about it. Some of the newer mods need a little work developing their bedside manner.

I have never seen a deletion reason that was impolite or abusive, except on spam posts and even then they are mostly just curt. And it's easy to verify that with the deleted posts blog.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:49 PM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

This post was deleted for the following reason: If this is just point-and-laugh at one overenthusiastic dude, that is not so great. If there's a larger trend or something else going on here, maybe a do-over with more context?

Sharper than it needed to be?
posted by kagredon at 7:53 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

KokuRyu: "A recent post I created was deleted (for good reason, I will admit). However, at first, the mod appeared in the thread, asking a bunch of questions about the post. There was no staff "mark" or badge, and I was unaware this user was a mod. And the deletion reason, while to the point, was a little sharper than it needed to be I thought. Taken altogether, it was confusing."

This post? Lobstermitten (who's been a moderator for coming up on 15 months now) left one comment asking for clarification: "Is there some more context for this? Your tags say "parody" - what is this a parody of?" Per the FAQ, it would have been better to use small type to indicate "this is a mod speaking", but that's not "a bunch of questions", it's one.

And the deletion reason given was "If this is just point-and-laugh at one overenthusiastic dude, that is not so great. If there's a larger trend or something else going on here, maybe a do-over with more context?" Scrolling back through the other recently deleted posts for comparison and thinking back to some of the ones I've seen before, that's not what I'd call sharply worded.

The mods have a lot more patience for misrepresentation of their words and actions and incessant nitpicking of their decisions than I would have. Good thing I'm not a mod.
posted by Lexica at 7:54 PM on January 30, 2014 [8 favorites]

How do you get mods to appear at your bedside?

A heavy meal before going to sleep does it for me, especially if I've had anything to drink. Try to get up completely, sit and read a book in the light for a while, then go back to bed and hope it doesn't happen again.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:26 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah seriously, WTF. How do you get mods to appear at your bedside?

How do you get them to stop?
posted by bongo_x at 8:55 PM on January 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

Am I the only one who has MetaFilter dreams? It was a bar, and the mods were the bartenders.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:39 PM on January 30, 2014

I had one a while ago. The mods were actually very helpful but I haven't had one since, in case it annoys them.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:01 PM on January 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

In my MetaFilter dreams the mods wear white coats and give me pills and occasionally lobotomize me, but only in the nicest way.
posted by XMLicious at 10:36 PM on January 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Am I the only one who has MetaFilter mods visit me in my dreams?

This dream was deleted for the following reason: If this is just point-and-laugh at one overenthusiastic dude in his underwear (you), that is not so great. If there's a larger trend or something else going on here, maybe discuss this with your therapist?
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:16 AM on January 31, 2014 [19 favorites]

i chuckle maniacally whenever the "bar for fpp's" is discussed with a straight face. cuz, i mean, SLYT cat videos, right? but hey, i chuckle maniacally anyway.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 2:05 AM on January 31, 2014 [5 favorites]

I thought this was a good deletion, but mostly because i imagined the thread very much the way people at the start of this meta including the mods seemed to have. Like, worst of 2014 list at the end of the year shitty fight fest chimps flinging poo kinda bullshit.

But, it got reposted and it seems to be doing fine, so maybe my meter is miscalibrated. I get that it was partially initial presentation, but you can only sell something so hard one way or the other.

There is definitely a bunch of inflammatory shit in there though. I mean like some bombs, like the "women can't deal with other women getting attention" stuff and whatever. eugh. Not to even get in to the "black = urban" and other things going on there.
posted by emptythought at 4:35 AM on January 31, 2014

Musing over my coffee this morning (it goes great with MetaTalk) it occurred to me that I am thankful that we can have nice things. Nice things being actual discourse with the mods about the decisions to do x- or -y thing.

Most forums are about wielding the ban hammer.

I actually found the FAQ interesting and I learned a few things.
posted by Thistledown at 4:55 AM on January 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

You know i think i may have been too harsh on this, it's actually pretty interesting although some of the questions/prompts were pretty boring or vanilla/meh in that "the genie gave you three wishes, and you asked for THAT?!?!" kinda way like the shart one.
posted by emptythought at 4:59 AM on January 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

Is this the appropriate thread to vent about the annoying tendency of every stripping-related discussion on Mefi to inevitably be filled with a bunch of dudes jumping in for no other reason than to comment about how they don't frequent strip clubs/don't like strip clubs, for seemingly no other purpose other than to loudly proclaim, "EVERYONE PLEASE NOTICE HOW ENLIGHTENED AND NOBLE I AM", or is that "start your own Meta" terrotory?
posted by The Gooch at 7:24 AM on January 31, 2014 [2 favorites]

I mean, are you suggesting that posts be deleted based on anticipation of the worst possible response to the post?

The mods (all of them) do that occasionally. It can be frustrating to see posts get axed before anything erupts. But there are ample precedents.

Also, I write posts that way. (Trying to anticipate the worst possible response people could have to it.) I suck at it, tho.
posted by zarq at 7:25 AM on January 31, 2014

*shrug* Some of us don't like strip clubs. Voicing that opinion doesn't mean we're boasting.
posted by zarq at 7:28 AM on January 31, 2014 [3 favorites]

To me those type of comments come off as the "I don't even own a TV" of strip-club related threads.
posted by The Gooch at 7:34 AM on January 31, 2014 [10 favorites]

for seemingly no other purpose other than to loudly proclaim

On the one hand, I don't think people really need to jump in unprompted in numbers every time to talk about not going to strip clubs. In this case, it's a post that contains a bit of discussion by the link author about the idea of agency and coercision-to-attend re: the whole "nobody doesn't want to be there who is there" angle, so it's kind of on point, but not every thread is this thread so I hear you.

On the other hand, I think your read is kind of unfair in that there's a whole cultural expectation built into our media that Dudes Love Strip Clubs that's sort of weird, and people are probably going to react to or discuss that sometimes when it comes up because it's a thing they have feelings about, not because they think it's just a good abstract rhetorical strategy for scoring enlightenment points. I'm not arguing no one ever does that, because people do all sorts of things here and there, but for the most part I think it's less LOOK HOW ENLIGHTENED I AM and more I KINDA TAKE ISSUE WITH THE CONFLICT BETWEEN CULTURAL NARRATIVES AND HOW I ACTUALLY FEEL ABOUT THIS at the root of it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:34 AM on January 31, 2014 [12 favorites]

Am I the only one who has MetaFilter dreams? It was a bar, and the mods were the bartenders.

I have had one, and that is made particularly weird by the fact that I've never met the mods IRL. The Josh of this picture and I were detectives. I don't remember what we were detecting. Also, Zachary Quinto was there (because I don't remember ever having seen a picture of mathowie, but I DO remember people saying they look alike).
posted by solotoro at 7:52 AM on January 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

The Gooch: "To me those type of comments come off as the "I don't even own a TV" of strip-club related threads."

I can see that. But in addition to what cortex mentions, some of us have been to strip clubs (and/or known someone who stripped) and have formed an opinion about the subject based on experience. My sense of the "I don't even own a tv" comments is that they're coming from people who choose to remain ignorant about a topic, but are weighing in, no?
posted by zarq at 8:03 AM on January 31, 2014

I've never been to strip club, but I have seen them on TV, at my friend's house.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:10 AM on January 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

Is this something I would have to own a strip club to understand?
posted by medusa at 8:14 AM on January 31, 2014 [5 favorites]

(Pondering) Hmmm. Nope, it's LOOK HOW ENLIGHTENED I AM. Because in this country, there's always the message "sex is bad and you should feel bad for thinking about it."
posted by Melismata at 8:18 AM on January 31, 2014

Yeah, no. I prefer not to support places where working conditions are likely to be terrible or even dangerous for sex workers.
posted by zarq at 9:19 AM on January 31, 2014 [3 favorites]

(Pondering) Hmmm. Nope, it's LOOK HOW ENLIGHTENED I AM. Because in this country, there's always the message "sex is bad and you should feel bad for thinking about it."

The thing is, in this country or any other, there's a ton of contradictory messages around this stuff.

No matter what you do or say about sex (or sex work, or sex workers), there's gonna be at least a few of those messages that you can be accused of endorsing.
posted by this is a thing at 10:28 AM on January 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

I prefer not to support places where working conditions are likely to be terrible or even dangerous for sex workers.

Totally valid, and I think that arguments could be made on either side on why it would be a good idea to patronize and a good idea not to patronize strip clubs on the grounds of work conditions/safety/etc (I mean, if absolutely everybody was going to strip clubs all the time and it was a completely normal, destigmitized thing, that also might have a good effect on work conditions/safety). Just because that discussion is about values and goals doesn't mean it's about being holier than thou, I personally think it's an interesting discussion to have.

But something must be going on with why men feel like they need/want to say whether they like strip clubs and how often they go, because you don't hear a fraction as much of that from the women in any of these threads. The discussion in the threads is not even usually about whether it's a good idea to go to strip clubs or not, it's more like some men feel they should put a disclaimer that they're not super into strip clubs before they even go into their other thoughts/comments. I don't know what that something is, because to be honest I don't have a really good sense of how men "normally" think about or interact with strip clubs. But something seems like it's up, to make so many men in particular feel they need a(n often irrelevant) disclaimer?
posted by rue72 at 10:31 AM on January 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

Some men who are frequently at strip clubs would seem to have no other option for getting an attractive woman clothed or not to engage with them or exist in their vicinity, either because of their actual distastefulness or their distorted self perception of such. Disdaining strip clubs is a means of signaling social and sexual prowess - the disdainful proclaims he can get female attention without paying.

When I wanted to know if a certain club was sketch or not, I looked it up on a stripper forum. Easy peasy, internet's great.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 10:58 AM on January 31, 2014

it's more like some men feel they should put a disclaimer that they're not super into strip clubs before they even go into their other thoughts/comments. I don't know what that something is

It's not that mysterious. A) men are frequently presumed to be horndogs B) a disembodied voice on the internet writing about strip clubs may be even more likely to be presumed to be a horndog. However rhetorically clumsy it might be, is it that surprising that a dude might like to head that assumption off at the pass, for whatever reason?

That's only a guess though. I guess I'd have to go to a strip club to get a better sense of it.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:18 AM on January 31, 2014 [2 favorites]

it's more like some men feel they should put a disclaimer that they're not super into strip clubs before they even go into their other thoughts/comments.

Eh, yeah this is annoying as hell to me as people could probably tell from my snark in the thread. I post in threads about drugs but I don't feel the need to talk about how much or little I smoke crack. I post in threads about prostitution but I don't feel the need to talk about how many or how few hookers I pick up a week. And I post in threads about strip clubs without having to say whether or not I enjoy them or think they're awful.

Really. You can post in the thread and we won't necessarily think you're a strip club horndog who spends every lunch break tossing singles at nursing school students. I promise.
posted by Justinian at 11:29 AM on January 31, 2014 [2 favorites]

But in addition to what cortex mentions, some of us have been to strip clubs (and/or known someone who stripped) and have formed an opinion about the subject based on experience. My sense of the "I don't even own a tv" comments is that they're coming from people who choose to remain ignorant about a topic, but are weighing in, no?

That's not my impression of the comments. For example: Also have only ever been dragged to a strip club and only once. I felt massively out of place and uncomfortable there; didn't really get the attraction at all.

How is that adding any sort of context beyond "see? I'm a good guy and think it was icky!"
posted by Justinian at 11:33 AM on January 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

...yeah this is annoying as hell to me...

There's the problem, right there.

It's great that you too have an opinion, but sharing said opinion, while complaining about others sharing theirs ain't no great shake of a leg.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:44 AM on January 31, 2014 [4 favorites]

This is Metatalk. That's what its for.
posted by Justinian at 11:50 AM on January 31, 2014

Oh, boy. Opinions. I have them.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:52 AM on January 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

medusa: "Is this something I would have to own a strip club to understand?"

Eponysterical
posted by the latin mouse at 12:08 PM on January 31, 2014

Justinian: " How is that adding any sort of context beyond "see? I'm a good guy and think it was icky!""

"I felt massively out of place and uncomfortable there; didn't really get the attraction at all." adds someone's personal opinion about an experience they have had to the thread.

It's not exactly deep, but there's nothing wrong with it.

By contrast, check out this thread from back in 2009, and this comment:

"I have yet to visit a strip club. Just stumbling into a strip-o-gram at work made me feel uncomfortable. Am I missing something wonderful and magical in the strip club experience? Is it something I should do once to have it checked off in that mystery list of things you "ought" to try at least once? Or is it just going to be like when my friends drag me to Hooters: my first thought is, "She looks cold and miserable," and goes from there to depressing me in a number of different directions?

Based on the article, I'm going to say that the only winning move is not to pay."

This one's a bit better, I think. Doubt most "I've never been to a strip club" comments are like it, tho.
posted by zarq at 12:09 PM on January 31, 2014

Maybe i'm overly cynical, or an asshole or something(and both of those things are likely true), but i see the "Now i hate strip clubs and never want to go to one and they're gross and bla bla" thing as liberal in-group circlejerk stuff so that's just total lordosis for everyone else to high five them and go "Totally, yea we're above that pit of mainstream bro culture fratty BS don't worry, we're totally the good ones".

It's confirmation biasy, but every time i've seen that exact line get trotted out in person it was in a really "I'm not one of those mainstream male chauvinist pigs, i'm so above all that" way.

Like, intentionally or not, it makes people sound like some social justicey/liberal progressive version of hipster dudes going "Oh that band is so played out now" or something.(Which i've also heard a lot of).

It's like yea we get it, you're sooo much more progressive than the average man, whatever dude. When you see it 15 times in a thread like that it seems like something from the circlejerk board of reddit.
posted by emptythought at 3:01 PM on January 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

I post in threads about drugs but I don't feel the need to talk about how much or little I smoke crack. I post in threads about prostitution but I don't feel the need to talk about how many or how few hookers I pick up a week. And I post in threads about strip clubs without having to say whether or not I enjoy them or think they're awful.

The devilish side of me is struggling so hard not to comment in that thread now. ;)

"Hey, everybody, did you know Justinian spends every weekend smoking crack with hookers in stripper joints?"
posted by misha at 3:07 PM on January 31, 2014

it was in a really "I'm not one of those mainstream male chauvinist pigs, i'm so above all that" way.

"Look at those fucking hipsters. They think they're too cool for mainstream chauvinism."
posted by octobersurprise at 3:18 PM on January 31, 2014 [8 favorites]

I went to a strip club once. It was pretty fun.
posted by rtha at 3:18 PM on January 31, 2014 [3 favorites]

How do you get mods to appear at your bedside?

Say you're sleeping with Paul Weller on a particular day and time?

Disagree with the deletion. None of the reasons brought up crossed my mind, but then we're all individuals who will see things differently. I mean this post wasn't deleted, which is baffling and was way more "fighty".
posted by juiceCake at 3:28 PM on January 31, 2014

How is that adding any sort of context beyond "see? I'm a good guy and think it was icky!"

It's like yea we get it, you're sooo much more progressive than the average man, whatever dude. When you see it 15 times in a thread like that it seems like something from the circlejerk board of reddit.

I'm really not getting why this is so annoying. This site is usually all about people who think a bit differently than they're "supposed to" think. Society tells us that all men in strip clubs are loving every second because That's What Men Are Like. So in a thread about strip clubs, some guys come in to say, I've been in one for Reason and I didn't feel it. What's wrong with that? Why does that comment have to "add context" or be "deep"? Why is that somehow fake or showing off or whatever? People comment in every thread "Hey I did this thing we're talking about and I thought this". No one's stopping anyone in the thread saying "I like strip clubs" and you would be raging if anyone who did was criticised. Why is it any different to judge someone for saying that they don't?
posted by billiebee at 4:01 PM on January 31, 2014 [2 favorites]

I think strip clubs are good for society as a whole, but bad for the patrons and worse for the strippers, both of whom are exploited by them in various ways.

A co-op owned by the strippers seems to me to be the least worst possible arrangement, but in addition to the problems common to co-ops in general, stripper co-ops might be vulnerable to attacks legal and illegal by owners of rival clubs, who are more likely than average businesspeople to have connections to organized crime, and succession programs would be tricky because strippers 'retire' so much earlier than average workers.

As I think we can see from cases where men's clubs have hired strippers, co-ops owned by patrons could be even worse than what we have now, because strippers might have fewer protections from patrons who want to do more than just look.
posted by jamjam at 4:14 PM on January 31, 2014

I mean this post wasn't deleted, which is baffling and was way more "fighty".

I don't get it, that was from 2006?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:02 PM on January 31, 2014

billiebee: "Society tells us that all men in strip clubs are loving every second because That's What Men Are Like"

Really? That's the impression I got back in the 80s, but for at least a decade or so depictions of strip clubs are "places where losers hang out" and "places mafia and gang leaders use as offices".
posted by Bugbread at 6:38 PM on January 31, 2014

I'm sleeping with Paul Weller on a particular day and time.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:55 PM on January 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

(Pondering) Hmmm. Nope, it's LOOK HOW ENLIGHTENED I AM.

I wonder how you wind up at a point in life where you feel comfortably assured assuming the absolute worst motivation possible in someone else, regardless of your inability to actually read their mind.
posted by kavasa at 7:53 PM on January 31, 2014 [8 favorites]

Also, even if you're right, doesn't that make your declarations of having seen through their feeble boasts make you just a different shade of the same color? I mean it seems like it does to me, but who knows.
posted by kavasa at 7:56 PM on January 31, 2014 [2 favorites]

I'm really not getting why this is so annoying. This site is usually all about people who think a bit differently than they're "supposed to" think. Society tells us that all men in strip clubs are loving every second because That's What Men Are Like. So in a thread about strip clubs, some guys come in to say, I've been in one for Reason and I didn't feel it.

A lot of it, though, seems to be just a different package of what "society says they're supposed to think," coming from a whole mess of "supposed to think" that frankly seems a lot worse to me than "society says het & bi men generally enjoy seeing naked women."
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 8:05 PM on January 31, 2014

So my first response is to be a counterexample to the accusation of "LOOK HOW ENLIGHTENED I AM" because I have really come to fucking hate these pernicious claims that people don't really mean the things they say and are saying it only as pretense. It is so much a fucking junior high school mentality to think that everyone else are poseurs. Anyway, I've been to a strip club on, I think, five occasions in my life, and I really enjoyed myself three of those times. I'm also a very outspoken male feminist. Sorry if that breaks your brain.

My second response is to defend the claims of discomfort, because while I very much enjoyed myself on a few of those visits, I also found the general atmosphere very disturbing and especially hated the way that most of the other men interacted with the dancers. They were fucking dead-eyed. They didn't look the women in the eye, they didn't talk with them, they didn't treat them like people. And if they did talk with them, they also didn't treat them like people. It was creepy as hell.

I enjoyed myself because I treated the dancers like the real people that they are, I had several extremely sexy and totally nude women gyrating all over me in lap dances, these were intensely sexual experiences for me, and I tipped them each time more money than the dances cost. My own interaction was pretty close to how I'd like to think most such interactions should be, though I know they aren't.

I did this only a few times because the overall environment was far more bleak and exploitative than sex-positive and women-empowering, I hated to be reminded of how so many men think about women, and, anyway, after the third time there was no question in my mind that the bad outweighed the good.

So, you know, it's entirely possible for someone not to fit some stereotype of what you expect are the only possible responses men might have to this topic. Both positive and negative responses are entirely valid and there's no damn reason to just assume that someone is misreporting their own experience and opinion.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:43 PM on January 31, 2014 [9 favorites]

I don't like going to strip clubs. It's not because I see myself as a More-Enlightened-Than-Thou Renaissance Man. Pretty naked girls are a big turn on for me, but fake smiles on unhappy faces are a much bigger turn off.
posted by double block and bleed at 10:19 PM on January 31, 2014 [5 favorites]

but for at least a decade or so depictions of strip clubs are "places where losers hang out" and "places mafia and gang leaders use as offices".

... or it's a friend's stag and for some stupid reason you end up having a beer in one while buzzing on shrooms and you end up almost bumping into a strange guy dressed in pajamas who looks an awful lot like Gary Bussey, and it turns out, he is Gary Bussey dressed in pajamas. Meanwhile, the stripper's dancing to Madonna's version of American Pie.

I call that high class weirdness.
posted by philip-random at 10:44 PM on January 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

But something must be going on with why men feel like they need/want to say whether they like strip clubs and how often they go, because you don't hear a fraction as much of that from the women in any of these threads.

"All men love going to strip clubs" is a stereotype (at least in the US), and some people (i.e. men) who witness this stereotype applied with a broad brush tend to have a knee-jerk reaction to disprove it. I don't think that's an unusual reaction when someone's confronted with a stereotype that (supposedly) applies to them, and it might be a bit disingenuous to assume someone is trying to 'seem more enlightened' or what have you just because they didn't let the stereotype pass quietly.
posted by davejay at 11:17 PM on January 31, 2014 [4 favorites]

Oh, and I won't talk about whether I like or dislike strip clubs, so as to avoid -- I don't know, white-knighting myself? -- but I will say that the few times I've declined a group outing to a strip club in the past, the men present have either said/done nothing or simply nodded their heads and moved on, while the women present have looked very confused and wouldn't initially take no for an answer. I've never known quite what to make of that.
posted by davejay at 11:20 PM on January 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

I went to a strip club once. I didn't enjoy it, but it was because I ate a lot of iffy pizza beforehand, and spent the evening on the verge of gastrointestinal disaster. The people I was with probably thought I'm a horrible prude, but what can you do. Haven't been back, as the internets have my Oggling Naked Ladies I Am Not Actually Sexing needs pretty much covered.
posted by Dr Dracator at 12:02 AM on February 1, 2014

a whole mess of "supposed to think" that frankly seems a lot worse to me than "society says het & bi men generally enjoy seeing naked women."

I've yet to see anyone here arguing that they don't. Someone saying they're uncomfortable being in a strip club is not the same as saying men don't like seeing naked women. Strip clubs are problematic for some people for many reasons, and dismissing their opinions with lighten up dude it's just boobs, seems kind of unfair.
posted by billiebee at 3:00 AM on February 1, 2014 [5 favorites]

I have my very own strip club in Birmingham UK, and I didn't even know about it until this thread. Thanks Metatalk!
posted by medusa at 9:58 AM on February 1, 2014

I have really come to fucking hate these pernicious claims that people don't really mean the things they say and are saying it only as pretense. It is so much a fucking junior high school mentality to think that everyone else are poseurs.

For the record, I don't doubt that those people who feel compelled to mention that they don't like strip clubs in seemingly every stripping industry related thread on Mefi are being honest about their views.

To hopefully provide more clarity to my complaint, I would imagine people would find it really annoying if in virtually *EVERY* "Dr. Who" themed post a large portion of the comments were nothing more than people jumping in to say, "Not a big fan of Dr. Who", "I watched Dr. Who once or twice and didn't really like it", "My friend hassled me into watching an episode of Dr. Who with him one time and I hated it". Sort of the same way it was annoying when any sports-related post on Mefi used to inevitably be filled some contingent of "I don't like sports" comments. Not because these people are lying about their opinions, but because this kind of "polling the audience" response is about the least interesting way to discuss the topic.

I'll cop to the "EVERYONE PLEASE NOTICE HOW ENLIGHTENED I AM" reaction being a probably uncharitable reading of these comments. But I do find it curious how on this one subject so many guys feel it necessary to weigh in with their Official Stance on strip clubs in a way people often don't when discussing other topics.
posted by The Gooch at 10:21 AM on February 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'd totally go to more strip clubs if I could count on the 'shrooms and Gary Busey.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:03 AM on February 1, 2014

Not really necessary or helpful.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:50 AM on February 1, 2014

To hopefully provide more clarity to my complaint, I would imagine people would find it really annoying if in virtually *EVERY* "Dr. Who" themed post a large portion of the comments were nothing more than people jumping in to say, "Not a big fan of Dr. Who", "I watched Dr. Who once or twice and didn't really like it"

EXACTLY. I don't doubt that the people who post that they dislike strip clubs and/or are made uncomfortable are telling the truth. And there's nothing annoying about posting that if it is relevant to the comment and thread. But when people keep posting it when it basically adds nothing and is, frankly, sorta irrelevant it's exactly as annoying as threads about TV shows used to be when a bunch of people would post nothing but "TV is so awful!" or "TV is full of garbage!".

I mean, I believe them that they think TV is a bleak wasteland. But they've added nothing to the conversation and when it keeps getting posted it becomes tiresome.

It's not, like, a moral failing or disingenuous or any of that. It's just kind of tiresome and I'm saying I think the threads would be better without it. Just like I think threads are better when people don't use that @username twitter convention.
posted by Justinian at 12:52 PM on February 1, 2014 [4 favorites]

Also, if people want to believe I am constantly doing blow with hookers in strip clubs that's fine with me. It seems more exciting than posting to Metafilter while eating Grape Nuts and wearing nothing sweat pants.
posted by Justinian at 12:54 PM on February 1, 2014

So offering my opinion on the topic at hand formed from lived experience is both submitting to the Metafilter liberal groupthink AND equivalent to "ur band sux"? Are there any other ridiculous restrictions to my comments that I should know about?
posted by double block and bleed at 1:46 PM on February 1, 2014

What combativeness? Talking about it in this thread isn't combativeness, it's just talking about it!
posted by Justinian at 1:52 PM on February 1, 2014

So offering my opinion on the topic at hand formed from lived experience is both submitting to the Metafilter liberal groupthink AND equivalent to "ur band sux"

Well, that kind of depends on what the topic at hand is, doesn't it? If the topic at hand is whether a band sucks, then saying a band sucks is perfectly relevant. If the topic at hand is, say, the history of a genre of music then a bunch of mostly identical comments from various people about how sucky Nickelback is doesn't seem very relevant.
posted by Justinian at 1:55 PM on February 1, 2014

It's just kind of tiresome and I'm saying I think the threads would be better without it

I completely agree. The comparison I'd make is to threads about sports. It's super tiresome if everyone like me who isn't a fan drops into a discussion about the big game to let everyone know we aren't fans. It's easy to participate as a non fan (be it of sports, strip clubs, or a particular movie), but it's equally easy to avoid being tiresome in one's reiterations of non-interest.

Strip clubs are huge cultural touch points. Even people who have never been to one have seen depictions in movies, have friends who go or who have worked in them, and have valid and informed opinions about the place of strip clubs in modern life. And all of that is possible to communicate without having to first go through the "I'm not a fan" routine, same as with football and Dr Who.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:47 PM on February 1, 2014

Well, technically the FPP was about strippers' thoughts on their profession. So to borrow your music analogy, Justinian, if it's a thread by and about musicians, are any comments by people who aren't musicians relevant? Is it perhaps equally redundant for non-musicians to turn up and say "I like/dislike live music"? You can either argue that neither adds anything useful other than personal opinions, or that both sentiments are valid in terms of a wider discussion about how and where people consume music.

I don't think the Dr Who/sports comparisons hold up. Strip clubs clearly have wider societal implications and cultural connotations for men and women than "I am/am not a fan". You can not be a "fan" of strip clubs per se but still have something of value to add to a discussion on the topic. Prefacing that opinion with a personal anecdote is normal interaction on the site as far as I can see.
posted by billiebee at 3:00 PM on February 1, 2014 [2 favorites]

You will definitely want to stay out of the Super Bowl thread, then, Kalessin. Several commenters seem to be making a point of coming in that thread just to let everyone know how much they hate football.
posted by misha at 8:06 PM on February 1, 2014

Feel free to flag people if they are being obnoxious.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:09 PM on February 1, 2014

"I don't think the Dr Who/sports comparisons hold up. Strip clubs clearly have wider societal implications and cultural connotations for men and women than 'I am/am not a fan'. You can not be a 'fan' of strip clubs per se but still have something of value to add to a discussion on the topic. Prefacing that opinion with a personal anecdote is normal interaction on the site as far as I can see."

Yeah. "Your favorite band sucks" and "I don't like Doctor Who" are really nothing more than matters of taste and it's mostly irrelevant to conversations about such topics to interject those opinions. Also, people are weird about matters of taste and tend to take criticisms of things they like as personal attacks (not the least because such criticisms are very often explicitly personal attacks such as "only people with stunted growth like X" or the like). So, yeah, those kinds of comments are just egregiously provocative and rude.

Sports, in general, and similarly popular music in general or broadcast television in general, all exist in a context that's situated between matters of taste and cultural conventions and, arguably, cultural values. Which is to say, it can be a valid comment to say that you have a problem with something that is, basically, something that you're expected in your culture to participate in whether you like it or not. That doesn't make declarations like "sports suck" and "television sucks" automatically acceptable, but there is more of a justification for talking about this in larger discussions about these things. Because these things are kind of in-between, it's probably best to engage with these opinions in a tactful way, because for a lot of people it is just matters of taste and it's only going to be the people who feel pressured to participate in them, or who feel they are expressions of important and negative social forces, who will feel there's a problematic aspect to them.

And then there's things like strip clubs.

The fact of the matter is that strip clubs are not merely matters of taste, they're far, far from merely matters of taste. There's all sorts of important and difficult issues wrapped up in the topic of strip clubs. It's not even remotely a (nearly) politically neutral topic like a pop musician or a television sitcom. It's sex work and I think it's quite like prostitution. If someone says, "I don't like prostitution" in a thread about prostitution, that's not an intrusive, unnecessary expression of personal taste, that's (almost certainly) a completely relevant expression of their values and politics. It's perverse, I think, to talk about prostitution without talking about human rights and human dignity and exploitation and values and politics. And I think the same is true of strip clubs.

Now, some people might disagree with that. They might think that strip clubs are, for them, approximately as value and politically neutral as pop music and sitcoms. I disagree, but I'll accept as valid that position. But if other people don't think it's neutral, and do think it's political and value-laden, then they're probably discussing their negative feelings and thoughts about strip clubs as part of expressing their values and politics, which is a perfectly relevant part of the discussion for them.

I guess the deciding factor is whether this is an extreme minority view, or not. There may be people who think that "How I Met Your Mother" is a political and value-laden topic and feel justified to inject their dislike into any conversations about the show. But I suspect those people are very, very few. Almost no one is going to agree with them and thus will see this as needlessly disruptive. In contrast, I think that many, many people think that stripping is a political and value-laden topic.

And this will vary by venue. But this venue is MetaFilter. Good luck getting the majority here to agree with you if you think that strip clubs are value-neutral and opinions about them are merely matters of taste.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 9:00 PM on February 1, 2014 [6 favorites]

If the FPP is about "strip clubs: how I felt as a visitor," then yes, the place setting of your opinions is great. If instead it's "strip clubs: my experience as an employee," then starting by telling everyone that you only go there when forced and didn't enjoy it all that much is dissonant and tacky. It's the same rules that apply to discussions of sports or movies or whatever.

There's a super interesting FPP right now about relationships within Harry Potter. Am I going to improve the discussion by telling everyone that I only read the first book and didn't even like it? Fuck no, I'm clearly uninformed about the topic and need to enjoy it as a reader and maybe learn something (which I am).
posted by Dip Flash at 11:09 PM on February 1, 2014 [3 favorites]

Don't get us started about that Little Lord Fauntleroy momzer, Harry Potter. That guy is the worst.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:27 PM on February 1, 2014

the FPP is about "strip clubs: how I felt as a visitor," then yes, the place setting of your opinions is great. If instead it's "strip clubs: my experience as an employee," then starting by telling everyone that you only go there when forced and didn't enjoy it all that much is dissonant and tacky.

Except that her experience as an employee mentions people who were forced to go, and how she didn't realize that men are forced to go to to strip clubs against their wills. So, in this one instance, mentions of how you've been pressured to go to a strip club, and didn't enjoy yourself are completely on topic.
posted by Gygesringtone at 6:05 AM on February 2, 2014 [5 favorites]

How is that adding any sort of context beyond "see? I'm a good guy and think it was icky!"

I figured out a good example of how expressing preference helps push back against a stereotype, and has nothing to do with hey-I'm-a-good-guy: auto racing threads.

In typical auto racing threads here, there is a common derail of whether or not auto racing is a sport, and both sides of that conversation tend to find common ground in agreeing NASCAR isn't actually a sport. That often includes repetition of the stereotype that NASCAR is a low-brow thing for hicks and idiots (driving in circles har har har.)

In those threads, I traditionally drop a "hey, I'm not a hick or an idiot and I have always enjoyed NASCAR, even though my friends don't understand why" comment, because I find the stereotype to be rude and inappropriate, and so offering my opinion and personal experience is an attempt to encourage more thoughtfulness regarding the stereotype (which is, I think, more productive than just saying "I like NASCAR so shut up!" which is substantially more likely to trigger "of course you do, you're a hick or an idiot" response.)

If I were to apply your brush here, I might suggest that I was dropping these comments to brag about how I'm not a hick or an idiot. Which doesn't even make sense, right?

I would argue that the only reason one might think people are showing off their "good guy"-ness is that you feel strip clubs are a definitively bad thing, and everyone knows it, so saying you don't go must be a claim to the high road. Hopefully the NASCAR stereotype comparison can help you see that the personal experience portion is the detail required to deflect the stereotype...otherwise the comment would just be "I hate strip clubs so shut up!" which would be pointless and do nothing to disprove the stereotype.

Mind you, a formal scientific study of men and strip club attendance/desirability would be a better way to disprove it (as would a study showing that some percentage of NASCAR fans are well-educated and such) but sometimes anecdota are all we have to work with.
posted by davejay at 9:15 AM on February 2, 2014 [4 favorites]