TLDR October 3, 2013 7:12 PM Subscribe
The whole sad and wonderful jokes.txt saga is the subject of this week's Tldr, the newest podcast from the folks who make the superlative On the Media and who clearly have a long history of lurking here.
That's awesome. Jokes.txt is one of my favorite threads here.
posted by codacorolla at 7:29 PM on October 3, 2013
posted by codacorolla at 7:29 PM on October 3, 2013
who clearly have a long history of lurking here
The other day, I saw a Twitter conversation between Greg Nog and On the Media's account. They're apparently big fans of #TWURT.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:33 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
The other day, I saw a Twitter conversation between Greg Nog and On the Media's account. They're apparently big fans of #TWURT.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:33 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
WTF is #TWURT?
posted by frecklefaerie at 8:05 PM on October 3, 2013
posted by frecklefaerie at 8:05 PM on October 3, 2013
dmd's dad was a benefactor to lots of strangers! That makes me so happy.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:32 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:32 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
I just social-media shared that thread (again) the other day. It's got that perfect balance of bitter and sweet, and the jokes are uniformly hilarious. Hearing people read them or parts of them out loud was super awesome, thanks for the link!
posted by carsonb at 8:41 PM on October 3, 2013
posted by carsonb at 8:41 PM on October 3, 2013
Another great AskMe jokes thread: Dirty Jokes for Grandma
posted by carsonb at 8:42 PM on October 3, 2013
posted by carsonb at 8:42 PM on October 3, 2013
Apparently #TWURT is a page full of incomprehensible halves of conversations and stream of consciousness nonsense phrases just like every single other time I accidentally look at twitter
Srsly I have been waiting for years for someone to finally slip and reveal that that site is just the longest running practical joke ever you've all been pretending for years that it makes any kind of sense whatsoever just to make me crazy
posted by ook at 9:08 PM on October 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
Srsly I have been waiting for years for someone to finally slip and reveal that that site is just the longest running practical joke ever you've all been pretending for years that it makes any kind of sense whatsoever just to make me crazy
posted by ook at 9:08 PM on October 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
AS FAR AS I CAN TELL #TWURT IS TO TWEET AS FUNGUS IS TO FEET.
posted by carsonb at 9:20 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by carsonb at 9:20 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is so great! I love OTM, not sure how I feel about TLDR yet. It feels...lacking. Maybe because it doesn't have any Bob Garfield.
posted by radioamy at 9:23 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by radioamy at 9:23 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
OMYGOD THAT THREAD DO NOT LINK TO THAT THREAD I WANT TO PUT AN EVIL CURSE ON 75% OF THE PEOPLE IN THAT THREAD FOR BEING HUMORLESS TABLES. #TWURT
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:16 AM on October 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:16 AM on October 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
Though I will say Greg's joke crafting ability goes from like an 8 to an 11 between 2010 and 2011.
Look at the difference.
Gregory Cat-Holder @cat_beltane 22 May 10
WHEN THE HECK IS CSI:BEES COMING OUT? I WANT TO SEE BEE DECTECTIVES SOLVE BEE-RELATED CRIMES USING BEE TECNOLOGY #TWURT
VS
Gregory Cat-Holder @cat_beltane 21 Mar 11
MCNULTY AND BUNK, STARING DOWN AT A MOTIONLESS FERGUSON: "WELL , CLARISSA, LOOKS LIKE YOU'VE REALLY EXPLAINED IT ALL THIS TIME" #TWURT
The first one, funny, because of the image of the absurd show parody + the narrator who wants to see it. The second one has both of those elements but add the surprise of entering one TV scene abruptly and then hitting another TV world of a different tone, the nostalgia of that terrible 90s show plus the craziness of Clarissa killing Ferguson, and finally the twisting of the show title. Stacks on stacks.
Anyway what are we talking about? Oh that Ask.me thread. Uh, cool.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:27 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Look at the difference.
Gregory Cat-Holder @cat_beltane 22 May 10
WHEN THE HECK IS CSI:BEES COMING OUT? I WANT TO SEE BEE DECTECTIVES SOLVE BEE-RELATED CRIMES USING BEE TECNOLOGY #TWURT
VS
Gregory Cat-Holder @cat_beltane 21 Mar 11
MCNULTY AND BUNK, STARING DOWN AT A MOTIONLESS FERGUSON: "WELL , CLARISSA, LOOKS LIKE YOU'VE REALLY EXPLAINED IT ALL THIS TIME" #TWURT
The first one, funny, because of the image of the absurd show parody + the narrator who wants to see it. The second one has both of those elements but add the surprise of entering one TV scene abruptly and then hitting another TV world of a different tone, the nostalgia of that terrible 90s show plus the craziness of Clarissa killing Ferguson, and finally the twisting of the show title. Stacks on stacks.
Anyway what are we talking about? Oh that Ask.me thread. Uh, cool.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:27 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
My very favorite Greg Nog tweet is where he offers an idea for a bestselling novel where there is a mystery and the mystery is a vampire, also they are in love. I'm paraphrasing because I'm too lazy to search twitter and I forgot to get it tattooed on my ankle.
posted by Metroid Baby at 5:22 AM on October 4, 2013
posted by Metroid Baby at 5:22 AM on October 4, 2013
VISIT MY ANGLEFIRE PAGE 2 LEARN THE TRUTH ABOUT SO-CALED "MAGIC" MARKERS & SIGN MY PETITION 2 RENAME THEM EXPLAINABLE SCIENCE MARKERS #TWURT
Oh god, now I have to start actually going to twitter.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:56 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Oh god, now I have to start actually going to twitter.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:56 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sinead wrote me a letter and told me to stop twurting.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:59 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by cjorgensen at 5:59 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
I didn't want to ask this question in the MeTa below because it is so somber, but what's the recommended way to pronounce "quixotic?" I fear that it's kwik•zah•tic but I really want to say kee•ho•tic. Is anyone with me on this?
posted by slogger at 6:33 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by slogger at 6:33 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
No quay.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:46 AM on October 4, 2013
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:46 AM on October 4, 2013
I'm with you on both counts, slogger: the pronunciation is indeed as you fear, and yet every time I have occasion to say it I have to check myself against saying your preferred pronunciation.
Also, that jokes thread really has taken on a life of its own.
posted by gauche at 6:48 AM on October 4, 2013
Also, that jokes thread really has taken on a life of its own.
posted by gauche at 6:48 AM on October 4, 2013
I say kee-AH-tick and anybody who wants to convince me to do otherwise is tilting at goddam windmills.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:11 AM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:11 AM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
Of course you do.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:13 AM on October 4, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:13 AM on October 4, 2013 [6 favorites]
Hi, Metafilter. Thanks for posting this. We hope you liked it. When we pitched the idea of a show about the internet to the people who make the decisions, jokes.txt was a story we wanted to tell pretty much from the beginning. And yes, we lurk hard. In fact, I see Metafilter on computers screens all over WNYC.
With respect to #TWURTing and Greg Erskine, my personal favorite is "ON THE FLIGHT, MY ACCOMPLICES & I COMBINE OUR 3-OUNCE SHAMPOOS INTO 1 CONTAINER. "THIS IS IT, BOYS.." I WHISPER "THE DEADLY 9-OUNCE SHAMPOO." It captures everything.
I always thought "Twurting in a thrad" sounded like some kind of trick move a surfer might do. Saying it out loud is immensely satisfying.
Thanks again.
posted by Alex Goldman at 7:14 AM on October 4, 2013 [24 favorites]
With respect to #TWURTing and Greg Erskine, my personal favorite is "ON THE FLIGHT, MY ACCOMPLICES & I COMBINE OUR 3-OUNCE SHAMPOOS INTO 1 CONTAINER. "THIS IS IT, BOYS.." I WHISPER "THE DEADLY 9-OUNCE SHAMPOO." It captures everything.
I always thought "Twurting in a thrad" sounded like some kind of trick move a surfer might do. Saying it out loud is immensely satisfying.
Thanks again.
posted by Alex Goldman at 7:14 AM on October 4, 2013 [24 favorites]
That's awesome. I adore OTM and didn't even have Tldr on my radar, so thanks.
I also now feel a little more solid in my speculations when I hear stuff popping up on public radio shows and think "hmmm, funny, we just went there on MeFi last week!"
In fact, I see Metafilter on computers screens all over WNYC.
I am just jealous you can do that at work and call it "research."
posted by Miko at 7:37 AM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
I also now feel a little more solid in my speculations when I hear stuff popping up on public radio shows and think "hmmm, funny, we just went there on MeFi last week!"
In fact, I see Metafilter on computers screens all over WNYC.
I am just jealous you can do that at work and call it "research."
posted by Miko at 7:37 AM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
I also now feel a little more solid in my speculations when I hear stuff popping up on public radio shows and think "hmmm, funny, we just went there on MeFi last week!"
There are no coincidences, Miko.
posted by Alex Goldman at 7:39 AM on October 4, 2013 [10 favorites]
There are no coincidences, Miko.
posted by Alex Goldman at 7:39 AM on October 4, 2013 [10 favorites]
I still can't really believe y'all let me ramble on about Scott Adams and pseudonymity a couple years back.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:42 AM on October 4, 2013
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:42 AM on October 4, 2013
OTM: We lurk hard.
posted by headnsouth at 7:51 AM on October 4, 2013
posted by headnsouth at 7:51 AM on October 4, 2013
I've really been enjoying TLDR. The only problem is that I wish I had more of it! Keep up the good work, guys.
posted by inturnaround at 8:20 AM on October 4, 2013
posted by inturnaround at 8:20 AM on October 4, 2013
In fact, I see Metafilter on computers screens all over WNYC.
Can I use Metafilter on my resume then?
posted by The Whelk at 8:24 AM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
I thought MetaFilter was your resume, The Whelk.
posted by languagehat at 9:25 AM on October 4, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 9:25 AM on October 4, 2013 [7 favorites]
Cortex, me & PJ both were in awe watching that Scott Adams thread unfold. It was so bizarre. If you ever want to come back on and free associate, we'll try and make a compelling argument to brooke.
I've really been enjoying TLDR. The only problem is that I wish I had more of it!
Thanks, inturnaround! We're trying to make more as fast as possible. Only problem is we're still both full time OTM producers, so we're making this podcast on the margins when we have some spare time. And there are only two of us. and for some dumb reason we promised to put out one a week.
Can I use Metafilter on my resume then?
That depends. Does it say "The Whelk" on your driver's license?
posted by Alex Goldman at 9:27 AM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
I've really been enjoying TLDR. The only problem is that I wish I had more of it!
Thanks, inturnaround! We're trying to make more as fast as possible. Only problem is we're still both full time OTM producers, so we're making this podcast on the margins when we have some spare time. And there are only two of us. and for some dumb reason we promised to put out one a week.
Can I use Metafilter on my resume then?
That depends. Does it say "The Whelk" on your driver's license?
posted by Alex Goldman at 9:27 AM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
If you ever want to come back on and free associate, we'll try and make a compelling argument to brooke.
Sold!
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:31 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Sold!
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:31 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
I can loan you a sharpie if you need one, The Whelk.
posted by ook at 9:31 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ook at 9:31 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Whelk, you should just swap identities with an actual whelk.
FOR SCIENCE
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:33 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
FOR SCIENCE
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:33 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
In any proper language, "twurt" would be the past tense of "tweet".
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
I have a non-drivers state ID that could modified in any way you see fit.
I thought MetaFilter was your resume, The Whelk.
This is my design.
posted by The Whelk at 10:12 AM on October 4, 2013
I thought MetaFilter was your resume, The Whelk.
This is my design.
posted by The Whelk at 10:12 AM on October 4, 2013
It doesn't look professional, though.
posted by ardgedee at 10:20 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by ardgedee at 10:20 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
we'll try and make a compelling argument to brooke.
D- d- do you mean Brooke Gladstone???
This thread, my god, it's full of stars.
posted by slogger at 10:24 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
D- d- do you mean Brooke Gladstone???
This thread, my god, it's full of stars.
posted by slogger at 10:24 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Hey Slogger, Brooke made you a present.
posted by Alex Goldman at 10:39 AM on October 4, 2013 [27 favorites]
posted by Alex Goldman at 10:39 AM on October 4, 2013 [27 favorites]
That's pretty much the best thing ever. Thanks!!!
posted by slogger at 10:44 AM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by slogger at 10:44 AM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
This is kind of amazing. OTM is such a preferred podcast to me (a major podcast nerd) that I was kind of worried when the regular OTM podcasts downloaded later and the Tldr downloaded in its place. I love the Tldr podcasts that I've heard, but I plan my housecleaning around OTM. It's one of the few things that can keep my ADD in check long enough to get at least some semblance of tidiness.
And I also listen when it comes on WBEZ with my daughter, the budding journalist (just had her first article published in the HS paper!). OTM rocks!
Hi Alex!!! Hi Brooke!!!
!
posted by readery at 10:47 AM on October 4, 2013
And I also listen when it comes on WBEZ with my daughter, the budding journalist (just had her first article published in the HS paper!). OTM rocks!
Hi Alex!!! Hi Brooke!!!
!
posted by readery at 10:47 AM on October 4, 2013
What a nice gesture & great picture! I'd like to think the books behind her were all edited ......................... by Brooke.
posted by headnsouth at 10:53 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by headnsouth at 10:53 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Somebody please be telling me where I can find the radio version of the Scott Adams story now please?
posted by Navelgazer at 11:33 AM on October 4, 2013
posted by Navelgazer at 11:33 AM on October 4, 2013
Danke!
posted by Navelgazer at 11:40 AM on October 4, 2013
posted by Navelgazer at 11:40 AM on October 4, 2013
That is truly awesome. Moments like these make me happy to be a radio geek.
posted by Miko at 11:49 AM on October 4, 2013
posted by Miko at 11:49 AM on October 4, 2013
Alex Goldman: "Hey Slogger, Brooke made you a present."
Ok, that's completely and utterly awesome. :) :) :)
posted by zarq at 11:53 AM on October 4, 2013
Ok, that's completely and utterly awesome. :) :) :)
posted by zarq at 11:53 AM on October 4, 2013
I didn't want to ask this question in the MeTa below because it is so somber, but what's the recommended way to pronounce "quixotic?" I fear that it's kwik•zah•tic but I really want to say kee•ho•tic. Is anyone with me on this?
The dictionary (the dictionary) says it's the one you fear, and despite how obviously wrong that is and the fact that dictionaries aren't rulebooks, the alternative would sound too much like chaotic, so I kind of agree with the kwikzers.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:58 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
The dictionary (the dictionary) says it's the one you fear, and despite how obviously wrong that is and the fact that dictionaries aren't rulebooks, the alternative would sound too much like chaotic, so I kind of agree with the kwikzers.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:58 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Whelk: " Can I use Metafilter on my resume then?"
Skills:
"CAN FIND AND DISSEMINATE STUFF ON THE INTERNET"
posted by zarq at 11:58 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Skills:
"CAN FIND AND DISSEMINATE STUFF ON THE INTERNET"
posted by zarq at 11:58 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
I've definitely heard people say "kee-ho-tic." I remember it well because I was all of a sudden like "Dear God, I've been saying that wrong my whole life."
posted by Miko at 12:00 PM on October 4, 2013
posted by Miko at 12:00 PM on October 4, 2013
> I remember it well because I was all of a sudden like "Dear God, I've been saying that wrong my whole life."
No, you were right the first time (aka "your whole life"). The adjective quixotic is not derived from the Spanish name Quijote /ki-KHO-te/ but from the original borrowed form Quixote, which at the time the adjective was created was pronounced /KWIK-sət/ (just as Juan, in Don Juan, was originally pronounced /JOO-ən/, which is how you have to pronounce it in Byron if you want things to rhyme as intended). The fact that we've given in to the multiculti drive to pronounce everything as close as possible to the way the people we borrowed it from say it (which I personally think is silly) means that we now say a pseudo-Spanish "key-HOE-tay," but that has no bearing on the pronunciation of the adjective, which is an independent English word.
posted by languagehat at 12:11 PM on October 4, 2013 [14 favorites]
No, you were right the first time (aka "your whole life"). The adjective quixotic is not derived from the Spanish name Quijote /ki-KHO-te/ but from the original borrowed form Quixote, which at the time the adjective was created was pronounced /KWIK-sət/ (just as Juan, in Don Juan, was originally pronounced /JOO-ən/, which is how you have to pronounce it in Byron if you want things to rhyme as intended). The fact that we've given in to the multiculti drive to pronounce everything as close as possible to the way the people we borrowed it from say it (which I personally think is silly) means that we now say a pseudo-Spanish "key-HOE-tay," but that has no bearing on the pronunciation of the adjective, which is an independent English word.
posted by languagehat at 12:11 PM on October 4, 2013 [14 favorites]
Man, I start riding my bike to work and all the sudden, my podcast listen time is drastically cut (my girlfriend says she'll kill me if she catches me with headphones on the bike again). Now's when you launch? ARG!
posted by klangklangston at 1:04 PM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by klangklangston at 1:04 PM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
> I say kee-AH-tick and anybody who wants to convince me to do otherwise is tilting at goddam windmills.
Whatever you say, corteh.
posted by ardgedee at 1:34 PM on October 4, 2013
Whatever you say, corteh.
posted by ardgedee at 1:34 PM on October 4, 2013
languagehat, this accords with what I learned in college when we read Byron's Don Juan, which, if you want the thing to rhyme (and he did), you have to pronounce "Don Joo-An."
posted by Miko at 2:03 PM on October 4, 2013
posted by Miko at 2:03 PM on October 4, 2013
Sorry to continue the Spanish-pronunciation derail: I'd always thought that Byron meant the mispronunciations in Don Juan - "Guadalquivir" rhymes with "river," "Inez" with "fine as," "José" with "rosy," "Seville" with "revel," "Cadiz" with "ladies," and "Juan" with "true 'un" and "new 'un" - as burlesque, though he does get "Alfonso" and "Julia" right. Did people really pronounce those words that way?
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 2:31 PM on October 4, 2013
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 2:31 PM on October 4, 2013
Growing up in New Mexico and being a reader, I had some familiarity with spanish pronunciation and the word quixotic in print (but not spoken) from about middle-school age and for years I read it as kee-AH-tic. I think the first few times I heard kwix-AH-tic I thought the speaker was, um, ignorant. When I learned that was how it was pronounced, I was shocked. It bugged me for a long time. But, as languagehat says, it's an English word now.
I still totally disagree with him about the pronunciation of place and personal names, though, given native phonological constraints. I think self and native pronunciation should always have precedence. And that's pretty much the direction things have been moving in English for the last thirty years.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:47 PM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
I still totally disagree with him about the pronunciation of place and personal names, though, given native phonological constraints. I think self and native pronunciation should always have precedence. And that's pretty much the direction things have been moving in English for the last thirty years.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:47 PM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
One of the main things I learned from my two visits to Austin is that if it is possible to fuck up what should be a straightforward Spanish pronunciation of e.g. a street name, Austinians have found a way.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:06 PM on October 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:06 PM on October 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
Whenever I hear that weird pronunciation of "Los Angeles" rhyming with "bees," I imagine Losangeles, the Greek god of tan lines.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 3:10 PM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 3:10 PM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
"One of the main things I learned from my two visits to Austin is that if it is possible to fuck up what should be a straightforward Spanish pronunciation of e.g. a street name, Austinians have found a way."
In the eight years I lived there, I never once pronounced Guadalupe as the Austinites do. Yes, I know, that's contrary to what I previously wrote. But I just couldn't bring myself to do it.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:45 PM on October 4, 2013
In the eight years I lived there, I never once pronounced Guadalupe as the Austinites do. Yes, I know, that's contrary to what I previously wrote. But I just couldn't bring myself to do it.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:45 PM on October 4, 2013
I dunno Cortex, my great-grandma prounounced "Pueblo" (in Colorado) "PEE-eh-blah". I know others from that area who pronounce it the same. (not trying to get into a contest with Texans, though!)
posted by dbmcd at 4:18 PM on October 4, 2013
posted by dbmcd at 4:18 PM on October 4, 2013
"Whenever I hear that weird pronunciation of "Los Angeles" rhyming with "bees,"
"In the early 1900s, The Los Angeles Times advocated the Spanish version, carrying a box by its editorial page masthead that proclaimed the way to say Los Angeles was Loce AHNG-hayl-ais."
"During the 1995 O.J. Simpson trial, historian Bruce Henstell complained that defense attorney F. Lee Bailey was "making the name of our fair city rhyme with bees.""
posted by klangklangston at 4:53 PM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
"In the early 1900s, The Los Angeles Times advocated the Spanish version, carrying a box by its editorial page masthead that proclaimed the way to say Los Angeles was Loce AHNG-hayl-ais."
"During the 1995 O.J. Simpson trial, historian Bruce Henstell complained that defense attorney F. Lee Bailey was "making the name of our fair city rhyme with bees.""
posted by klangklangston at 4:53 PM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
cortex: "One of the main things I learned from my two visits to Austin is that if it is possible to fuck up what should be a straightforward Spanish pronunciation of e.g. a street name, Austinians have found a way."
I believe San Antonians would give the Austinites a run for their money.
posted by deborah at 6:04 PM on October 4, 2013
I believe San Antonians would give the Austinites a run for their money.
posted by deborah at 6:04 PM on October 4, 2013
if it is possible to fuck up what should be a straightforward Spanish pronunciation of e.g. a street name, Austinians have found a way.
Similarly with New Orleans' distinctly non-French pronunciations of French placenames.
posted by Miko at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2013
Similarly with New Orleans' distinctly non-French pronunciations of French placenames.
posted by Miko at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2013
My grandmother, who grew up in Los Angeles during the 1920s and 30s, used to pronounce it "loss ANG-gless" (rhymes with "dang bless"). I don't think I've ever heard anybody else pronounce it that way, though.
posted by Lexica at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2013
posted by Lexica at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2013
Similarly with New Orleans' distinctly non-French pronunciations of French placenames.
And you've never heard a Muse pronounced the way they do in NOLA! It rewired my circuitry so badly that when I moved back to Minneapolis from New Orleans and saw a business called Periscope, I assumed it was pronounced Per-i-skop-ee.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
And you've never heard a Muse pronounced the way they do in NOLA! It rewired my circuitry so badly that when I moved back to Minneapolis from New Orleans and saw a business called Periscope, I assumed it was pronounced Per-i-skop-ee.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
Sorry to continue the Spanish-pronunciation derail: I'd always thought that Byron meant the mispronunciations in Don Juan - "Guadalquivir" rhymes with "river," "Inez" with "fine as," "José" with "rosy," "Seville" with "revel," "Cadiz" with "ladies," and "Juan" with "true 'un" and "new 'un" - as burlesque, though he does get "Alfonso" and "Julia" right. Did people really pronounce those words that way?
It is possible that Byron was just a moron.
(Also, Languagehat, Quixote was always spelled with an x. Also, because it was written in Old Castilian, in which x was more Portuguesey, Quixote would have been pronounced key-SHOT-eh. Also. Also.)
posted by Sys Rq at 9:07 AM on October 5, 2013
It is possible that Byron was just a moron.
(Also, Languagehat, Quixote was always spelled with an x. Also, because it was written in Old Castilian, in which x was more Portuguesey, Quixote would have been pronounced key-SHOT-eh. Also. Also.)
posted by Sys Rq at 9:07 AM on October 5, 2013
It is possible that Byron was just a moron.
Possible, but unlikely proven with this instance, given the mispronunciation's fitting well beside the abundant stunt rhyme throughout the poem.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:31 AM on October 5, 2013
Possible, but unlikely proven with this instance, given the mispronunciation's fitting well beside the abundant stunt rhyme throughout the poem.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:31 AM on October 5, 2013
Also, as far as I know, Old Castilian more properly refers to the language of El Cid than to that of Don Quixote. But your point about the pronunciation stands: That sound hadn't yet left Castilian by 1605, and French translations preserved it with Don Quichotte. The sound disappeared over time, replaced with that throaty sound (I don't know the name or the IPA symbol), and spelling reforms in the 19th century changed the title to Don Quijote.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:48 AM on October 5, 2013
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:48 AM on October 5, 2013
> Did people really pronounce those words that way?
Yes, they did. They also pronounced Milan MY-lən, called Livorno Leghorn, and did all sorts of other things that would give Ivan Fyodorovich fits. But they were (quite properly) concerned with expressing themselves in their own language, not accumulating cosmopolitan extra-credit points.
I suspect that those of you who think it's important to pronounce foreign words as the foreigners do don't realize the corner you're painting yourselves into. Because there are two logical possibilities (assuming you don't believe in Anglo-American exceptionalism, which I'm sure that as good cosmopolitans you don't): either pronouncing foreign names as foreigners do is Right and Good or it's not. If it's Right and Good, then it follows that foreigners are Wrong and Bad for not trying to pronounce Anglo-American names the way we do, which by and large (Germans and Scandinavians excepted) they don't. If you think it's vital to say Beijing the way the Chinese do rather than using the good old English form Peking (and of course there's a schism among cosmopolitans, the loosey-goosey ones saying it's OK just to get the consonants right, the strict constructionists saying we should try to get the tones right too), then it must be equally important for Chinese to say the names of American and English cities correctly. If, per contra, you are willing to allow the French to continue to talk about La Nouvelle-Orléans and not force them to try to say New Orleans the way we do (of course, first we have to decide on the One Right Way to pronounce New Orleans), then you should let your fellow English speakers pronounce foreign names however they like. (And by the way, are you really going to say pah-REE for Paris? If not, I find your lax inconsistency shocking.)
posted by languagehat at 10:18 AM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, they did. They also pronounced Milan MY-lən, called Livorno Leghorn, and did all sorts of other things that would give Ivan Fyodorovich fits. But they were (quite properly) concerned with expressing themselves in their own language, not accumulating cosmopolitan extra-credit points.
I suspect that those of you who think it's important to pronounce foreign words as the foreigners do don't realize the corner you're painting yourselves into. Because there are two logical possibilities (assuming you don't believe in Anglo-American exceptionalism, which I'm sure that as good cosmopolitans you don't): either pronouncing foreign names as foreigners do is Right and Good or it's not. If it's Right and Good, then it follows that foreigners are Wrong and Bad for not trying to pronounce Anglo-American names the way we do, which by and large (Germans and Scandinavians excepted) they don't. If you think it's vital to say Beijing the way the Chinese do rather than using the good old English form Peking (and of course there's a schism among cosmopolitans, the loosey-goosey ones saying it's OK just to get the consonants right, the strict constructionists saying we should try to get the tones right too), then it must be equally important for Chinese to say the names of American and English cities correctly. If, per contra, you are willing to allow the French to continue to talk about La Nouvelle-Orléans and not force them to try to say New Orleans the way we do (of course, first we have to decide on the One Right Way to pronounce New Orleans), then you should let your fellow English speakers pronounce foreign names however they like. (And by the way, are you really going to say pah-REE for Paris? If not, I find your lax inconsistency shocking.)
posted by languagehat at 10:18 AM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you think it's vital to say Beijing the way the Chinese do ...
There's a significant element, though, of wanting to communicate the goodwill of not clumsily approximating pronunciations that were misheard in the first place. In my work I have to do a lot of coordinating with Chinese and Indian artists and administrators. It would be a distinct faux pas for me to say "Peking" in conversation with them - it would be read as an act of either serious ignorance meaning I shouldn't at the table, or pointed ill will. To a lesser extent, the same is true of things like Bombay/Mumbai (there are still a lot of Indian traditionalists who prefer Bombay, it gets complicated). So there are at least some times where a purist "This is how we say it in English" approach is at cross purposes to diplomatic efforts to show intercultural goodwill.
posted by Miko at 10:26 AM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
There's a significant element, though, of wanting to communicate the goodwill of not clumsily approximating pronunciations that were misheard in the first place. In my work I have to do a lot of coordinating with Chinese and Indian artists and administrators. It would be a distinct faux pas for me to say "Peking" in conversation with them - it would be read as an act of either serious ignorance meaning I shouldn't at the table, or pointed ill will. To a lesser extent, the same is true of things like Bombay/Mumbai (there are still a lot of Indian traditionalists who prefer Bombay, it gets complicated). So there are at least some times where a purist "This is how we say it in English" approach is at cross purposes to diplomatic efforts to show intercultural goodwill.
posted by Miko at 10:26 AM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
> It would be a distinct faux pas for me to say "Peking" in conversation with them - it would be read as an act of either serious ignorance meaning I shouldn't at the table, or pointed ill will.
And why is that not true when the nationalities are reversed?
posted by languagehat at 11:00 AM on October 5, 2013
And why is that not true when the nationalities are reversed?
posted by languagehat at 11:00 AM on October 5, 2013
Mostly because of the antagonistic history between the nations. Also, in my experience, they do call our cities and states by their American names, so there are no real instances of reversal.
posted by Miko at 11:11 AM on October 5, 2013
posted by Miko at 11:11 AM on October 5, 2013
> they do call our cities and states by their American names
But do they pronounce them exactly right? Do they say the r's as we do? If not, why aren't they making an effort?
Look, if I were in your position of course I'd do as you do; I have no wish to cause offense to my interlocutors. I'm a practical person, and I say Beijing myself most of the time (except in collocations like "Peking duck") because that's now become the standard English form. Which is fine, language is ever-changing; what I'm objecting to is what I consider an ill-thought-out and indefensible intellectual position (which frequently merges into moral posturing): it is very important for English speakers to say foreign names correctly (though somehow this tends in practice to involve only languages the moral posturer happens to know—I don't think I've ever heard anyone criticized for saying Saint Petersburg instead of Sankt-PeterBOORK), whereas it is a matter of utter indifference whether foreigners say English names "correctly" or not. All those American leftists self-righteously saying "knee-kah-RRRAH-ghwahh" back in the '80s would have been horrified if you said "How come that Nicaraguan can't say Chicago or Washington correctly?" I've never been a fan of cant and hypocrisy.
posted by languagehat at 11:41 AM on October 5, 2013
But do they pronounce them exactly right? Do they say the r's as we do? If not, why aren't they making an effort?
Look, if I were in your position of course I'd do as you do; I have no wish to cause offense to my interlocutors. I'm a practical person, and I say Beijing myself most of the time (except in collocations like "Peking duck") because that's now become the standard English form. Which is fine, language is ever-changing; what I'm objecting to is what I consider an ill-thought-out and indefensible intellectual position (which frequently merges into moral posturing): it is very important for English speakers to say foreign names correctly (though somehow this tends in practice to involve only languages the moral posturer happens to know—I don't think I've ever heard anyone criticized for saying Saint Petersburg instead of Sankt-PeterBOORK), whereas it is a matter of utter indifference whether foreigners say English names "correctly" or not. All those American leftists self-righteously saying "knee-kah-RRRAH-ghwahh" back in the '80s would have been horrified if you said "How come that Nicaraguan can't say Chicago or Washington correctly?" I've never been a fan of cant and hypocrisy.
posted by languagehat at 11:41 AM on October 5, 2013
One of the main things I learned from my two visits to Austin is that if it is possible to fuck up what should be a straightforward Spanish pronunciation of e.g. a street name, Austinians have found a way.
The most ridiculous is Manor Rd. Pronounced, to my complete bafflement, MAY-nor. (Also this still amuses me.)
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 12:11 PM on October 5, 2013
The most ridiculous is Manor Rd. Pronounced, to my complete bafflement, MAY-nor. (Also this still amuses me.)
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 12:11 PM on October 5, 2013
But do they pronounce them exactly right? Do they say the r's as we do? If not, why aren't they making an effort?
Well, they do make a real effort. They drill pretty hard on the r's even if they don't always come out like ours!
I tend to agree with you that there's a version of this that goes to ridiculous extremes. All I'm saying is that I need to be aware of my positionality when choosing pronunciations or placenames. My choices can send unintentional messages which I don't want to send. It's not always crazy to say hey, let me try to say this the way I understand you prefer or have asked me to do.
As you note, that doesn't mean the basic assumption should be that I try to say everything in the way I imagine the natives of that place would say it, just because I want to show off my cultural expertise. Especially if I just decided that's what I should do with no input from the people more familiar with that place.
But I would be boorish if I insisted on ending what you're right to note is a double standard, when America has really not suffered from being historically disempowered by language in our internal discourse the same ways some other nations have. I guess all I mean is that I can neither wholly condemn nor wholly celebrate the effort to move certain American English placenames a bit closer to the names currently used by the people of that place, even where it's a bit arbitrary and idiosyncratic. There are times it's the right thing to do, and times when it's uninformed, self-righteous, and/or goofy.
posted by Miko at 12:13 PM on October 5, 2013
Well, they do make a real effort. They drill pretty hard on the r's even if they don't always come out like ours!
I tend to agree with you that there's a version of this that goes to ridiculous extremes. All I'm saying is that I need to be aware of my positionality when choosing pronunciations or placenames. My choices can send unintentional messages which I don't want to send. It's not always crazy to say hey, let me try to say this the way I understand you prefer or have asked me to do.
As you note, that doesn't mean the basic assumption should be that I try to say everything in the way I imagine the natives of that place would say it, just because I want to show off my cultural expertise. Especially if I just decided that's what I should do with no input from the people more familiar with that place.
But I would be boorish if I insisted on ending what you're right to note is a double standard, when America has really not suffered from being historically disempowered by language in our internal discourse the same ways some other nations have. I guess all I mean is that I can neither wholly condemn nor wholly celebrate the effort to move certain American English placenames a bit closer to the names currently used by the people of that place, even where it's a bit arbitrary and idiosyncratic. There are times it's the right thing to do, and times when it's uninformed, self-righteous, and/or goofy.
posted by Miko at 12:13 PM on October 5, 2013
Well, we're pretty much in agreement then, and I got to vent, so: win-win!
posted by languagehat at 12:48 PM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by languagehat at 12:48 PM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
" Which is fine, language is ever-changing; what I'm objecting to is what I consider an ill-thought-out and indefensible intellectual position (which frequently merges into moral posturing): it is very important for English speakers to say foreign names correctly … whereas it is a matter of utter indifference whether foreigners say English names "correctly" or not."
I think this is probably the sort of thing that linguists see that us civilians don't — I've never had someone argue this with me.
By way of anecdote, I live in a cosmopolitan city; around a third of the residents are foreign born, primarily from Latin America. I work with lots of people for whom English was not their first language, I regularly shop at stores and restaurants where the staff don't speak English fluently, sometimes at all. I don't mind, as I think that it represents one of those things I like about America — we have the most foreign-born residents of any country in the world.
I grew up in the Midwest; I have the TV anchor accent. Near where I grew up is the one-syllable town of My-len, and had family near both Des Plaines and Des Moines. The butchery of foreign names into a bland, nasal prosiness is normal for me.
And I live in the neighborhood mentioned by one of the articles I linked, Los Feliz. White people who grew up here usually call it Lahs Feel-uz; Latinos usually call it Lohs Fay-leez. There's no "as a foreigner would say it," really, especially since it comes from a proper name and so isn't really something that a Spanish person would say.
Sometimes I say it one way, sometimes I say it another.
Another example from Los Angeles is Rodeo. How would you say Rodeo Drive? Ro-day-oh, pretty much. How do you say Rodeo Road? Ro-dee-oh, pretty much. I don't know whether that comes from class pretensions, with the Drive being in Beverly Hills and the Road being down on the ass-end of Culver City. Drive came up on early oil money; Road still has derricks. Who even knows how they're supposed to be pronounced — people who don't work or live around Rodeo Road rarely have reason to talk about it, and when they do, they usually say it so it matches the other, more famous one.
People may judge you as not really being from there if you say any of 'em wrong, but that's really bound up in other aspects of identity — no one really thinks a Latino is saying Lahs Feel-uz wrong when they say Lohs Fay-leez.
So the idea of distilling pronunciation down to English Speakers Must Use the Native Pronunciation But Foreigners Don't Have to Try just seems totally alien. People will judge you based on the way you say things (much like wearing a fedora), but ascribing moral depth to that seems bizarre.
posted by klangklangston at 1:39 PM on October 5, 2013
I think this is probably the sort of thing that linguists see that us civilians don't — I've never had someone argue this with me.
By way of anecdote, I live in a cosmopolitan city; around a third of the residents are foreign born, primarily from Latin America. I work with lots of people for whom English was not their first language, I regularly shop at stores and restaurants where the staff don't speak English fluently, sometimes at all. I don't mind, as I think that it represents one of those things I like about America — we have the most foreign-born residents of any country in the world.
I grew up in the Midwest; I have the TV anchor accent. Near where I grew up is the one-syllable town of My-len, and had family near both Des Plaines and Des Moines. The butchery of foreign names into a bland, nasal prosiness is normal for me.
And I live in the neighborhood mentioned by one of the articles I linked, Los Feliz. White people who grew up here usually call it Lahs Feel-uz; Latinos usually call it Lohs Fay-leez. There's no "as a foreigner would say it," really, especially since it comes from a proper name and so isn't really something that a Spanish person would say.
Sometimes I say it one way, sometimes I say it another.
Another example from Los Angeles is Rodeo. How would you say Rodeo Drive? Ro-day-oh, pretty much. How do you say Rodeo Road? Ro-dee-oh, pretty much. I don't know whether that comes from class pretensions, with the Drive being in Beverly Hills and the Road being down on the ass-end of Culver City. Drive came up on early oil money; Road still has derricks. Who even knows how they're supposed to be pronounced — people who don't work or live around Rodeo Road rarely have reason to talk about it, and when they do, they usually say it so it matches the other, more famous one.
People may judge you as not really being from there if you say any of 'em wrong, but that's really bound up in other aspects of identity — no one really thinks a Latino is saying Lahs Feel-uz wrong when they say Lohs Fay-leez.
So the idea of distilling pronunciation down to English Speakers Must Use the Native Pronunciation But Foreigners Don't Have to Try just seems totally alien. People will judge you based on the way you say things (much like wearing a fedora), but ascribing moral depth to that seems bizarre.
posted by klangklangston at 1:39 PM on October 5, 2013
Two of my favorites were fighting and it scared me for a while.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 3:09 PM on October 5, 2013
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 3:09 PM on October 5, 2013
I'm amused by languagehat's assumptions. I don't exempt non-anglophones from what I think of as a cross-cultural rule of etiquette — I think everyone should make an effort to use the names that other people use for themselves and for the places they live. And, as my comment about Austinites and Guadalupe show, I certainly am not asserting a weird language purity rule; how Austinites say the spanish or german place names in their own region is the correct way to pronounce them. That can be problematic when there are more than one language population native to an area, and in those cases you'll adjust for context.
As Miko points out, the motivating factor in much of this in practice, culturally, has been anti-colonialism and the general assertion of the rights of indigenous peoples, so it makes sense that there is, in practice, an asymmetry. But I think it's a fine rule-of-thumb generally.
So, yes, for example I do think that non-Americans should pronounce American personal names and place names as Americans do. I don't insist on it, any more than I insist on anyone, ever, following this rule. And I've acknowledged that there are practical limits on this and it's generally fuzzy. It's a guideline. Call people (and their homes) by the names they prefer.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:26 PM on October 5, 2013
As Miko points out, the motivating factor in much of this in practice, culturally, has been anti-colonialism and the general assertion of the rights of indigenous peoples, so it makes sense that there is, in practice, an asymmetry. But I think it's a fine rule-of-thumb generally.
So, yes, for example I do think that non-Americans should pronounce American personal names and place names as Americans do. I don't insist on it, any more than I insist on anyone, ever, following this rule. And I've acknowledged that there are practical limits on this and it's generally fuzzy. It's a guideline. Call people (and their homes) by the names they prefer.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:26 PM on October 5, 2013
Two of my favorites were fighting and it scared me for a while.
I think we're generally cool even when we're popping off.
posted by Miko at 4:49 PM on October 5, 2013
I think we're generally cool even when we're popping off.
posted by Miko at 4:49 PM on October 5, 2013
Yeah, we weren't fightin', just discussin'.
ascribing moral depth to that seems bizarre.
I agree!
posted by languagehat at 5:53 PM on October 5, 2013
ascribing moral depth to that seems bizarre.
I agree!
posted by languagehat at 5:53 PM on October 5, 2013
Ivan Fyodorovich: "So, yes, for example I do think that non-Americans should pronounce American personal names and place names as Americans do. I don't insist on it, any more than I insist on anyone, ever, following this rule. And I've acknowledged that there are practical limits on this and it's generally fuzzy. It's a guideline. "
Yes, but the mistakes are, at times, hilarious.
posted by zarq at 5:55 PM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, but the mistakes are, at times, hilarious.
posted by zarq at 5:55 PM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: Over-pronouncing a plate of frijoles
posted by double block and bleed at 7:43 PM on October 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by double block and bleed at 7:43 PM on October 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
In Connecticut there is the Thames river, rhymes with James. If, as a people, we can do this to words that we borrowed from ourselves, all bets are off for foreign borrowings.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:29 AM on October 6, 2013
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:29 AM on October 6, 2013
West Virginia has the Canaan Valley, pronounced 'ki-NANE.' And although everyone else in the U.S. pronounces it Appal-AY-cha, the locals call it Appal/a/cha.
posted by headnsouth at 10:38 AM on October 6, 2013
posted by headnsouth at 10:38 AM on October 6, 2013
By the last one, you mean "apple latcha"?
posted by nangar at 10:49 AM on October 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by nangar at 10:49 AM on October 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
Place names have their own flavors. Once a friend and I were traveling through Georgia, and we'd stopped for lunch at a fast food place in Kissimmee. We got into a discussion about how it was pronounced. I favored Kiss-im-mee', but he figured it was Kiss' im-mee.
So I asked the waitress how she pronounced the name of this place, and she looked at me kinda funny and said, "McDonald's."
posted by mule98J at 12:50 AM on October 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
So I asked the waitress how she pronounced the name of this place, and she looked at me kinda funny and said, "McDonald's."
posted by mule98J at 12:50 AM on October 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
Wow, man, somebody just sucked all the fun out of this thread.
posted by slogger at 8:00 AM on October 7, 2013
posted by slogger at 8:00 AM on October 7, 2013
FWIW, it's pronounced kə-SIM-ee. (And it's in Florida.)
posted by Sys Rq at 8:16 AM on October 7, 2013
posted by Sys Rq at 8:16 AM on October 7, 2013
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posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:16 PM on October 3, 2013