It's Quiet - Too Quiet June 8, 2008 10:39 AM Subscribe
Did anyone notice that there were NO deleted posts on the Blue for all of June 7th? How common is that?
I'll admit I haven't searched every day or kept any sort of journal, but it seems like there's usually at least one 'oops' a day that has to get weeded out. How often do we go a whole 'clean' day like that?
I'll admit I haven't searched every day or kept any sort of journal, but it seems like there's usually at least one 'oops' a day that has to get weeded out. How often do we go a whole 'clean' day like that?
Well, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that nobody sucked yesterday. There were lots of people sucking out in the real world.
posted by iamkimiam at 10:42 AM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by iamkimiam at 10:42 AM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
congrats! no one sucked yesterday!
Dammit. I gotta try harder.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 10:43 AM on June 8, 2008
Dammit. I gotta try harder.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 10:43 AM on June 8, 2008
Petard, Meet Hoist
June 7, 2008 12:22 AM
This post was deleted for the following reason: This is literally the same post as earlier plus wikipedia padding. -- cortex
posted by CKmtl at 10:44 AM on June 8, 2008
June 7, 2008 12:22 AM
This post was deleted for the following reason: This is literally the same post as earlier plus wikipedia padding. -- cortex
posted by CKmtl at 10:44 AM on June 8, 2008
Courtesy of deleted thread, for all of your deleted thread needs.
posted by iconomy at 10:45 AM on June 8, 2008
posted by iconomy at 10:45 AM on June 8, 2008
See, that one shows up under the 6th for me- but inside it does say 12:22 AM. Damn, so close...
posted by pupdog at 10:45 AM on June 8, 2008
posted by pupdog at 10:45 AM on June 8, 2008
yeah, Pacific Standard is the ONLY timezone worth counting.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:10 AM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:10 AM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
Don't let those fuckers in Greenwich know; they might flip their shit.
posted by backseatpilot at 11:23 AM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by backseatpilot at 11:23 AM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
congrats! no one sucked yesterday!
wasn't that an AskMe question?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:31 AM on June 8, 2008
wasn't that an AskMe question?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:31 AM on June 8, 2008
"Don't let those fuckers in Greenwich know; they might flip their shit."
Nahh, we'll just deny you lot the use of our benchmark and thus you shall be resigned to drifting aimlessly through space and time, snarking at each other for all of eternity.
posted by Mutant at 11:37 AM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
Nahh, we'll just deny you lot the use of our benchmark and thus you shall be resigned to drifting aimlessly through space and time, snarking at each other for all of eternity.
posted by Mutant at 11:37 AM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
yeah, Pacific Standard is the ONLY timezone worth counting.
Oh, you PST-ists will rue your ways.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 11:46 AM on June 8, 2008
Oh, you PST-ists will rue your ways.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 11:46 AM on June 8, 2008
I posted a similar question awhile back, with some interesting responses.
posted by amyms at 12:06 PM on June 8, 2008
posted by amyms at 12:06 PM on June 8, 2008
EST is the bEST.
I think we all have to agree that Arizona, etc., not marching in line with the neighbors is horrendous, though. In that case with the Mountain/Pacific boundary being nearby as well, desert roads not necessarily having state boundaries marked, and people trying to set the clock back or forward as they thought correct without coordinating it with everyone, on a trip out around there we never had any idea what time it was. "We'll be getting in and meeting you in about 4 hours." "What time is that?" "No fucking clue, you figure it out."
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 12:09 PM on June 8, 2008
I think we all have to agree that Arizona, etc., not marching in line with the neighbors is horrendous, though. In that case with the Mountain/Pacific boundary being nearby as well, desert roads not necessarily having state boundaries marked, and people trying to set the clock back or forward as they thought correct without coordinating it with everyone, on a trip out around there we never had any idea what time it was. "We'll be getting in and meeting you in about 4 hours." "What time is that?" "No fucking clue, you figure it out."
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 12:09 PM on June 8, 2008
Too bad it's actually PDT right now.
Yeah, but it'll be PST in an hour.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:11 PM on June 8, 2008
Yeah, but it'll be PST in an hour.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:11 PM on June 8, 2008
I think we all have to agree that Arizona, etc., not marching in line with the neighbors is horrendous, though.
The network channels in AZ go off of mountain scheduling. So, when something says, "House, on at 9!" it really means House will be on at 8.
Cable channels, on the other hand, go off of California time.... But AZ, unlike CA, scoffs at daylight savings. So, for half the year, when AZ is on the same time as CA, TV shows on cable are on at the time they say. The other half of the year, however, when CA is an hour earlier than AZ, cable shows are an hour later. So, when it says, "Daily Show with Jon Stewart at 11!" it really means it'll be on at 12.
So, for half the year, anything that's on network TV is an hour earlier than advertised and anything on cable TV is an hour later than advertised.
You do not know how confusing this gets.
posted by Ms. Saint at 12:32 PM on June 8, 2008 [5 favorites]
The network channels in AZ go off of mountain scheduling. So, when something says, "House, on at 9!" it really means House will be on at 8.
Cable channels, on the other hand, go off of California time.... But AZ, unlike CA, scoffs at daylight savings. So, for half the year, when AZ is on the same time as CA, TV shows on cable are on at the time they say. The other half of the year, however, when CA is an hour earlier than AZ, cable shows are an hour later. So, when it says, "Daily Show with Jon Stewart at 11!" it really means it'll be on at 12.
So, for half the year, anything that's on network TV is an hour earlier than advertised and anything on cable TV is an hour later than advertised.
You do not know how confusing this gets.
posted by Ms. Saint at 12:32 PM on June 8, 2008 [5 favorites]
congrats! no one sucked yesterday!
Aww--that's the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a long time. I'm getting all misty-eyed.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 12:33 PM on June 8, 2008
Aww--that's the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a long time. I'm getting all misty-eyed.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 12:33 PM on June 8, 2008
Living in EST, and having spent the last week in PST, I really feel like I'm running late. It must be why Californians are so laid back -- they're three hours behind, and it's not like they're going to catch up, so why rush?
posted by Bookhouse at 1:00 PM on June 8, 2008
posted by Bookhouse at 1:00 PM on June 8, 2008
Two deleted threads in metatalk though.
posted by Dave Faris at 1:03 PM on June 8, 2008
posted by Dave Faris at 1:03 PM on June 8, 2008
Oh hi I was away for a few days. What's this thread about then?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:10 PM on June 8, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:10 PM on June 8, 2008 [3 favorites]
Yeah, but it'll be PST in an hour.
Some people always seem to be pst.
posted by lukemeister at 1:31 PM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
Some people always seem to be pst.
posted by lukemeister at 1:31 PM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
So basically we failed at sucking sufficiently for deletion? Man, we can't do ANYTHING right.
posted by blue_beetle at 2:16 PM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by blue_beetle at 2:16 PM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
I moved from Arizona to Indiana 3 years ago, and I was so pleased to be living somewhere else without daylight savings. And then Indiana had to screw it up by not only adopting daylight savings, but moving almost all of the state into the Eastern time zone. It doesn't get properly dark until about 10pm and the sun's not even up at 6 in the morning. Maybe I should build a time machine and assassinate Ben Franklin. I can live with two pairs of glasses, and really, what else has he done for the world?
posted by ErWenn at 2:30 PM on June 8, 2008
posted by ErWenn at 2:30 PM on June 8, 2008
no one sucked yesterday!
That means here in Japan, no one sucked the day before yesterday.
Old news.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:11 PM on June 8, 2008
That means here in Japan, no one sucked the day before yesterday.
Old news.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:11 PM on June 8, 2008
Also worth noting, June 6th was a day without MeTa.
posted by Dave Faris at 4:28 PM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Dave Faris at 4:28 PM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
How common is that?
About as common (and welcome) as a day without a metatalk thread. Today was looking good . . .
posted by chrisamiller at 5:03 PM on June 8, 2008
About as common (and welcome) as a day without a metatalk thread. Today was looking good . . .
posted by chrisamiller at 5:03 PM on June 8, 2008
no MeTas for a full 7 days
Only way that's going to happen is if the internet goes down for 168 hours. If that happens $50 will be the least of our worries.
posted by WalterMitty at 5:25 PM on June 8, 2008
Only way that's going to happen is if the internet goes down for 168 hours. If that happens $50 will be the least of our worries.
posted by WalterMitty at 5:25 PM on June 8, 2008
$100 from me for 168 hours, divided up among the recumbent bicycle charity of mathowie's choice, a donuts-for-the-hungry charity of cortex's choice, and a rural Vermont hippie charity of jessamyn's choice.
This is like the Cooter counter, guys. All everyone has to do to win is decide to win and thusly exercise the slightest self-control. Seriously, among enough crowds I hang out with, as soon as that dare/bet went up you'd immediately never hear those three words for a month.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 5:35 PM on June 8, 2008
This is like the Cooter counter, guys. All everyone has to do to win is decide to win and thusly exercise the slightest self-control. Seriously, among enough crowds I hang out with, as soon as that dare/bet went up you'd immediately never hear those three words for a month.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 5:35 PM on June 8, 2008
I'll kick in $100, same rules as Tim's. It seems like an interesting experiment, and I'm willing to bet we'll never pull it off.
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:51 PM on June 8, 2008
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:51 PM on June 8, 2008
About as common (and welcome) as a day without a metatalk thread. Today was looking good . . .
This is something I've seen time and again that I don't really get: why do some people who don't work for the site make such a big deal about the frequency of threads in MeTa? You don't have to read them. It's not like you're being called in for work on your day off.
posted by kittyprecious at 6:08 PM on June 8, 2008
This is something I've seen time and again that I don't really get: why do some people who don't work for the site make such a big deal about the frequency of threads in MeTa? You don't have to read them. It's not like you're being called in for work on your day off.
posted by kittyprecious at 6:08 PM on June 8, 2008
Who decides who gets the money? Is there still time to enter the contest for "biggest jerk here"?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:09 PM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:09 PM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
This is something I've seen time and again that I don't really get: why do some people who don't work for the site make such a big deal about the frequency of threads in MeTa? You don't have to read them. It's not like you're being called in for work on your day off.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 6:17 PM on June 8, 2008
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Neither can we call this a begging of misery, or a borrowing of misery, as though we were not miserable enough of ourselves, but must fetch in more from the next house, in taking upon us the misery of our neighbours. Truly it were an excusable covetousness if we did, for affliction is a treasure, and scarce any man hath enough of it. No man hath affliction enough that is not matured and ripened by and made fit for God by that affliction.- John Donne
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 6:17 PM on June 8, 2008
This is like the Cooter counter, guys. All everyone has to do to win is decide to win
Provided that some of the 30,000+ haven't already decided to 'lose'.
There could be a cadre of super secret Cooter counter-operatives who will spring into action when the otherwise trip-phrase-free month is almost up.
posted by CKmtl at 6:30 PM on June 8, 2008
Provided that some of the 30,000+ haven't already decided to 'lose'.
There could be a cadre of super secret Cooter counter-operatives who will spring into action when the otherwise trip-phrase-free month is almost up.
posted by CKmtl at 6:30 PM on June 8, 2008
Psst, there was an inflammatory MeTa that was deleted...check the sequence of threads and find it!
Well, that wasn't too hard - it was this one. The bigger questions, now that I see that it's now trivially easy to find a deleted MetaTalk thread, are: (1) since when have they been putting deletion reasons in deleted MeTa threads the same way as in MeFi threads, and (2) how come the deleted MeTa threads aren't indexed in Deleted Thread?
posted by yhbc at 6:32 PM on June 8, 2008
Well, that wasn't too hard - it was this one. The bigger questions, now that I see that it's now trivially easy to find a deleted MetaTalk thread, are: (1) since when have they been putting deletion reasons in deleted MeTa threads the same way as in MeFi threads, and (2) how come the deleted MeTa threads aren't indexed in Deleted Thread?
posted by yhbc at 6:32 PM on June 8, 2008
small-text fools no one.
1. it's been happening for a while now but I don't remember exactly when. We used to have two options: close and nuke [i.e. remove from view entirely] now we can close, nuke and plain old delete.
2. deleted thread really only works for MeFi most of the time, though we've been rejiggering AskMe so it might work there too but it's sort of less cool to have a blog dedicated to deleted AskMe stuff.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:36 PM on June 8, 2008
1. it's been happening for a while now but I don't remember exactly when. We used to have two options: close and nuke [i.e. remove from view entirely] now we can close, nuke and plain old delete.
2. deleted thread really only works for MeFi most of the time, though we've been rejiggering AskMe so it might work there too but it's sort of less cool to have a blog dedicated to deleted AskMe stuff.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:36 PM on June 8, 2008
Psst, there was an inflammatory MeTa that was deleted...check the sequence of threads and find it!
Nevercalm's teamfortress meta (#16335) shows up (for me at least) at 11:01pm on June 5th, and Sgt.serenity's closed thread about a previous message (#16336) doesn't show up until 8:28am on June 7th. So, at least for those of us on the east coast of the US, June 6th, 2008, was a day without Metatalk.
posted by Dave Faris at 6:42 PM on June 8, 2008
Nevercalm's teamfortress meta (#16335) shows up (for me at least) at 11:01pm on June 5th, and Sgt.serenity's closed thread about a previous message (#16336) doesn't show up until 8:28am on June 7th. So, at least for those of us on the east coast of the US, June 6th, 2008, was a day without Metatalk.
posted by Dave Faris at 6:42 PM on June 8, 2008
Cooter will never happen. This will never happen. Collective action problem. Hobbes, Hegel, Rousseau, whatever.
posted by Pax at 6:44 PM on June 8, 2008
posted by Pax at 6:44 PM on June 8, 2008
Shouldn't we be discussing this in MetaMetaTalk?
posted by null terminated at 6:53 PM on June 8, 2008
posted by null terminated at 6:53 PM on June 8, 2008
no MeTas for a full 7 days
I'll change my name to scooter.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:02 PM on June 8, 2008
I'll change my name to scooter.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:02 PM on June 8, 2008
Psst, there was an inflammatory MeTa that was deleted.
Inflammatory is right!
posted by dersins at 7:10 PM on June 8, 2008
Inflammatory is right!
posted by dersins at 7:10 PM on June 8, 2008
Yeah, in order for there to be even a chance of that bet being won, then every single person who would consider posting a MetaTalk thread would have to:
a) believe that you are being truly honest about that money,
b) care about charities,
c) exercise some self control, and
d) actually have read the comments in this thread.
posted by ErWenn at 7:17 PM on June 8, 2008
a) believe that you are being truly honest about that money,
b) care about charities,
c) exercise some self control, and
d) actually have read the comments in this thread.
posted by ErWenn at 7:17 PM on June 8, 2008
e) think it's worth it, which I don't.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:38 PM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:38 PM on June 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
I think I may have updated the wiki timeline when metatalk deletions became non-scorched-earth.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:50 PM on June 8, 2008
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:50 PM on June 8, 2008
Provided that some of the 30,000+ haven't already decided to 'lose'.
If you decide to lose, you're still a loser.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 8:10 PM on June 8, 2008
If you decide to lose, you're still a loser.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 8:10 PM on June 8, 2008
Remind me: why are MetaTalk posts bad in the first place anyway? They don't have to always be negative call-outs. Sometimes they're just random questions, meet-up requests, mentions of MeFi elsewhere, and occasionally even positive call-outs.
posted by ErWenn at 9:08 PM on June 8, 2008
posted by ErWenn at 9:08 PM on June 8, 2008
This is something I've seen time and again that I don't really get: why do some people who don't work for the site make such a big deal about the frequency of threads in MeTa?
Because probably 50% of them are either
a) stupid callouts that shouldn't be called out at all
b) stupid callouts that could easily be resolved with an email to a mod or by flagging and moving one
c) feature requests that have already been made
That said, I was being sarcastic upthread.
posted by chrisamiller at 9:15 PM on June 8, 2008
Because probably 50% of them are either
a) stupid callouts that shouldn't be called out at all
b) stupid callouts that could easily be resolved with an email to a mod or by flagging and moving one
c) feature requests that have already been made
That said, I was being sarcastic upthread.
posted by chrisamiller at 9:15 PM on June 8, 2008
They don't have to always be negative call-outs. Sometimes they're just random questions, meet-up requests, mentions of MeFi elsewhere, and occasionally even positive call-outs.
And I welcome these whole-heartedly. Peruse through the archives though, and see what you find more of.
posted by chrisamiller at 9:18 PM on June 8, 2008
And I welcome these whole-heartedly. Peruse through the archives though, and see what you find more of.
posted by chrisamiller at 9:18 PM on June 8, 2008
And I welcome these whole-heartedly. Peruse through the archives though, and see what you find more of.
And, maybe more important as far as the perception of metatalk in pop history around here, it's the negative ones mostly that stand out. Nobody ever says, "oh, shit, do you remember that time that orange swan suggested a meetup and then like a dozen people agreed to come and then afterward they posted pictures from the meetup, OH MAN THAT WAS A FUCKING SUCCESSFUL MEETUP THREAD".
One of those semi-manual data-mining projects someone could dig into: see what the mix of positive, negative, feature-requesty, meetup-y threads is like year to year in Metatalk. I'd venture here that the percentage of strictly negative callouts has gone down since '03 or '04, but I don't have data to back it up.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:28 PM on June 8, 2008
And, maybe more important as far as the perception of metatalk in pop history around here, it's the negative ones mostly that stand out. Nobody ever says, "oh, shit, do you remember that time that orange swan suggested a meetup and then like a dozen people agreed to come and then afterward they posted pictures from the meetup, OH MAN THAT WAS A FUCKING SUCCESSFUL MEETUP THREAD".
One of those semi-manual data-mining projects someone could dig into: see what the mix of positive, negative, feature-requesty, meetup-y threads is like year to year in Metatalk. I'd venture here that the percentage of strictly negative callouts has gone down since '03 or '04, but I don't have data to back it up.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:28 PM on June 8, 2008
but I don't have data to back it up.
Running for office, are we?
posted by pupdog at 9:38 PM on June 8, 2008
Running for office, are we?
posted by pupdog at 9:38 PM on June 8, 2008
Harsh.
Did you mean to start another thread homunculus?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:13 AM on June 9, 2008
Did you mean to start another thread homunculus?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:13 AM on June 9, 2008
Is there still time to enter the contest for "biggest jerk here"?
Don't bother, I've been working on a new project that is going to guarantee me the win. It's a shit-cannon. Think of it; it's a cannon, right? And get this, I can fire shit out of it! Huge quantities too. It's like something biblical, except instead of frogs or locust, it's giant piles of warm, stinky feces.
The best part is that when I win, I can use the money to start my business of high speed lawn fertilization.
I'm thinking of the motto: 'Your whole yard done in three artillery salvos or less'.
posted by quin at 8:13 AM on June 9, 2008
Don't bother, I've been working on a new project that is going to guarantee me the win. It's a shit-cannon. Think of it; it's a cannon, right? And get this, I can fire shit out of it! Huge quantities too. It's like something biblical, except instead of frogs or locust, it's giant piles of warm, stinky feces.
The best part is that when I win, I can use the money to start my business of high speed lawn fertilization.
I'm thinking of the motto: 'Your whole yard done in three artillery salvos or less'.
posted by quin at 8:13 AM on June 9, 2008
A quick logbash indicates that the longest interval between deletions on the blue is 11 days, 2:17:29, from here to here. The longest interval without a gray post is 15 days, 9:06:59, from here to here.
This was fairly rough and ready, so there may be errors.
posted by zamboni at 1:17 PM on June 10, 2008
This was fairly rough and ready, so there may be errors.
posted by zamboni at 1:17 PM on June 10, 2008
(Like distinguishing deleted posts by deletion reason. Are there old deleted posts without a deletion reason?)
posted by zamboni at 1:28 PM on June 10, 2008
posted by zamboni at 1:28 PM on June 10, 2008
While your work with the archives is admirable, you can't compare Metatalk c. 2000 with Metatalk c. 2008. The site's culture is completely different, not to mention the population explosion. It would be like saying there were very few automobile fatalities before 1763.
posted by Dave Faris at 1:45 PM on June 10, 2008
posted by Dave Faris at 1:45 PM on June 10, 2008
zamboni, important note: Matt took mefi with him for a vacation in August, 2001, so that metatalk span should be ignored as an exception (and likewise any other calcs for that period, e.g. posts to the blue).
As far as deletions, yeah, there are a few eras of deletion on the front page:
- Scorched earth: deleted posts are gone from the server
- Pre-reasons: deleted posts are "hidden" as now but with no recorded reason
- Pre-attribution: deleted posts are hidden and have a deletion reason but no mod id
- Attributed (current state): deleted posts are hidden, with reasons and mod attribution.
The green and the grey followed similar developments but at different times (metatalk, in particular, remained in Scorched Earth mode for a very long time). Other, more recent subsites generally started out at the Attributed or at least Pre-attribution stage.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:09 PM on June 10, 2008
As far as deletions, yeah, there are a few eras of deletion on the front page:
- Scorched earth: deleted posts are gone from the server
- Pre-reasons: deleted posts are "hidden" as now but with no recorded reason
- Pre-attribution: deleted posts are hidden and have a deletion reason but no mod id
- Attributed (current state): deleted posts are hidden, with reasons and mod attribution.
The green and the grey followed similar developments but at different times (metatalk, in particular, remained in Scorched Earth mode for a very long time). Other, more recent subsites generally started out at the Attributed or at least Pre-attribution stage.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:09 PM on June 10, 2008
How else would I find the all-time-champeen?
Since you asked so nicely, the longest no-delete streak in 2008 appears to be 2 days, 11:51:35, from here to here.
posted by zamboni at 2:10 PM on June 10, 2008
Since you asked so nicely, the longest no-delete streak in 2008 appears to be 2 days, 11:51:35, from here to here.
posted by zamboni at 2:10 PM on June 10, 2008
thanks, cortex!
Folks, be it known that my stats only sing tales of the Era of Attribution, when Mods walked among the blue, smiting the unworthy with zig-zaggy bolts of snark.
posted by zamboni at 2:19 PM on June 10, 2008
Folks, be it known that my stats only sing tales of the Era of Attribution, when Mods walked among the blue, smiting the unworthy with zig-zaggy bolts of snark.
posted by zamboni at 2:19 PM on June 10, 2008
And the Eon of Pre-attribution, I guess. That's in there too.
posted by zamboni at 2:20 PM on June 10, 2008
posted by zamboni at 2:20 PM on June 10, 2008
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:40 AM on June 8, 2008